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Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: spouse of Jesus on January 27, 2010, 06:47:21 AM

Title: MR people and the use of reason
Post by: spouse of Jesus on January 27, 2010, 06:47:21 AM
  I wonder what constitues use of reason and how much IQ is necessary for making one morally responsible.
  I know a boy who can:
speak using correct grammar, even figuritive language,
read and write,
help his parents in keeping the house and entertaining the guests,
fend for himself (ie. not needing help in eating, clothing bathing etc.)
make works of art with patience and deligence.
Play with other children without getting into trouble, (also taking care of younger ones.)
He also can argue with others, ask questions and remember things of past.
  But he has down syndrome......
I think he has some use of reason. His parents tried very hard to educate him, they sent him to a school especially designated for MR children.
Title: MR people and the use of reason
Post by: spouse of Jesus on February 11, 2010, 02:12:59 PM
   A human being cannot be 100% without reason. Even those children with severe genetic disorders who can never ever be more inteligent than a 4 year old, can know their nurses, learn some simple gestures and react to things around them.
   Perhaps, before the industization and introduction of technology and modern schools, people with mild retardation could not be recognized from others.
  When a mental disability is very low, the sufferer has normal appearence and can understand and learn simple manual jobs. He can't be a businessman or a lawyer, but he can interact and socialize like other people.
  I wonder if the inability to finish high school is considered lack of reason?
Title: MR people and the use of reason
Post by: Belloc on February 11, 2010, 02:18:08 PM
Actually, I do disability claims and just got a new case, wheras 2 yrs ago, someone with IQ in mid-60s was turned down as they were functioning higher than IQ and had significant earnings.

so, would think it is up to a good confessor to judge how much one knows and understands dogma, sin,etc..

Despite IQ, functioning is also a key...

Above IQ 70 is considered not MR, but likely could be BIF (borderline intellectual functioning).

Stantard IQ is 100
Title: MR people and the use of reason
Post by: Matthew on February 11, 2010, 02:21:14 PM
Onset of reason is a gradual process.

Children aren't irrational animals up till the magic age of 7, when they wake up one morning with a rational nature.

It helps to understand what reason allows us to do -- to make abstractions (and hence, recognize patterns, categories, etc.), to use language, etc.

If a child understand the concept of "chair" -- and how this chair, those chairs, and that chair over there all participate in "chairness" even though they have different accidents (color, shape, texture, etc.) -- that's using one's reason.

I think children rapidly pass up "pets" about age 1 1/2 or so -- I noticed that, having kids of my own. Under a certain age, there is little difference between a pet cat, dog, or human. They all cuddle, are incredibly needy, can't communicate, and lack reason.

There are also stories about children in Purgatory (and even Hell) -- so you don't have to be an adult to have enough use of reason to commit sin. Of course, God judges based on one's heart, so we can't really judge how culpable a given person is.

Matthew
Title: MR people and the use of reason
Post by: Belloc on February 11, 2010, 02:30:20 PM
True, God alone knows the heart and mind.that si the problem I have with some threads and posters, seems they wish to take His role for themselves,instead of letting Him figure it out..barring blatant heresy such as Uriels comments about Mary...
Title: MR people and the use of reason
Post by: spouse of Jesus on February 11, 2010, 02:35:47 PM
  Even a baby can make generalizations. Although he cannot speak, he can show that he understands generalities. this pacifier, that pacifier are all pacifiers though they differ in shape and color. A one year old can refer to birds as "too too" or another word depending on his langage. He can distiguish birds from other kinds of animal even though ravens and ducks are so different. Such a child won't refer to a fly as a "too too".
Title: MR people and the use of reason
Post by: Belloc on February 11, 2010, 02:56:48 PM
in your post, you make a good point....though someone could be 21, they may have the mindset of a 2 yr old, etc...I knew a family next to a cousin of mine...one son was "normal", the other was MR and had some understanding of right/wrong, but could not put impulses and actions together...he caould not make a logical and informed thought of "hey, thats wrong, therfore I should not do it", also, he did not understands consequence vs actions,etc...

for instance, in his early teens, he started to be hyper=sexual and could not amke informed decisions about touching people...sadly, he at times would publicly mastrubate, yet when caughter, could not put it together that it was wrong, should not be done in public,t all anywehre and that there were consequences-socially and morally....

he is in late 30's or so, stil llives with parents...they have to keep eye on him as a neighbor where they now live as a daughter that is MR and same age, they have to watch he does not act inappropriately with her....again, not talking normal urges and choosing to act on them, but he has a body of a man, mind of someone likely around age 5 or less...

should sex happen, likely would not be sinful or carry the weight that thos of us adult "normal" people would incur..

again, need a good confessor to assist and counsel
Title: MR people and the use of reason
Post by: Jamie on February 12, 2010, 02:49:11 PM
Quote from: Matthew
Onset of reason is a gradual process.

Children aren't irrational animals up till the magic age of 7, when they wake up one morning with a rational nature.

It helps to understand what reason allows us to do -- to make abstractions (and hence, recognize patterns, categories, etc.), to use language, etc.

If a child understand the concept of "chair" -- and how this chair, those chairs, and that chair over there all participate in "chairness" even though they have different accidents (color, shape, texture, etc.) -- that's using one's reason.

I think children rapidly pass up "pets" about age 1 1/2 or so -- I noticed that, having kids of my own. Under a certain age, there is little difference between a pet cat, dog, or human. They all cuddle, are incredibly needy, can't communicate, and lack reason.

There are also stories about children in Purgatory (and even Hell) -- so you don't have to be an adult to have enough use of reason to commit sin. Of course, God judges based on one's heart, so we can't really judge how culpable a given person is.

Matthew


You make good points here, but there is one small error.  In fact, children begin to abstract immediately upon their use of their senses.  All knowledge is learned through this.  The age of reason is when the person can combine two concepts to come to a third - when they are learning not through sense knowledge directly, but through reason.