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Author Topic: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?  (Read 10657 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
« Reply #345 on: September 01, 2020, 05:03:19 AM »
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  • Well, when one is voting for Trump, one is voting for some evils that come along with him (that have been adequately docuмented on this thread).  So, for instance, one is voting for someone who condones and even glorifies sodomy.  At the same time one is voting for someone who has shown some commitment in favor of the unborn.  So there's some good, and there's some bad.

    But what a Catholic voter does is to promote the good (anti-abortion) while also at the same time recognizing that there's evil that has come along with it.  So, for instance, the classic case of double effect is to perform an operation in an ektopic pregnancy to save the mother's life, knowing, however, that it will cost the life of the unborn child.  Even such an operation has to be performed very carefully so that one does not directly take the life of the unborn child, but, rather, removes the thread to the mother, without directly causing the death of the unborn child.  So the question of double effect with Trump is whether one's vote actually directly causes the evils that might be promoted by Trump during a second term.  This is where the application of double effect to voting becomes murky, and this really needs to be developed by Catholic moral theologians.  It's an extremely neglected aspect of Catholic moral theology.
    This is not comparing apples to apples. In the case of the ectopic pregnancy, although he is for it, Trump has not legislated abortion in such cases, and although sadly he wrongly approves of abortion in that case and some other cases, *as far as I know* he has not signed into law, nor has he made it any kind of official policy - if anything he has signed anti-abortion legislation and publicly condemns abortion over all.

    I think that the same can be said for his supporting the queers, *as far as I know* he has not made any rule or law in their favor. If I am wrong, please correct me.

    In short, whatever his personal beliefs are in these matters is of little importance because he's not the one who signed into law unisex bathrooms, sicko queers in the military, etc. ad nausem, on the contrary, he's the one who tried to get those laws off the books, which makes him our ally in these matters, and makes Biden our enemy. Again, correct me if I am wrong.

          

     
     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
    « Reply #346 on: September 01, 2020, 06:11:38 AM »
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  • This is not comparing apples to apples. 

    No it's not.


    Offline Aristotl

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    Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
    « Reply #347 on: September 01, 2020, 10:58:24 AM »
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  • Not for Catholics.  "Lesser of two evils" is contrary to core Catholic principles.  Catholics think in terms of "double effect."  I'm not sure how many times i need to repeat this.  Catholics can never do evil even to prevent a much greater evil.  But Catholics may make a choice with an intended good outcome even if unintended bad outcomes might result as well ... if certain conditions apply.
    I understand what you are saying. BUT CAN YOU SHOW ME WHERE YOU ARE FINDING THIS??? Prior to Pope Leo XIII, the Catholics were taught to not vote in the elections of Italy due to Socialism.  I can see your point that you speak of here. Now again Pope Leo XIII had a different view and that view was the Catholics needed to vote. Again Pope Leo said in an election with two Socialists you must vote for the lesser of two evils. Pope Pius XI scolded the Catholics in Germany for sitting out the election and said this is why Adolph Hitler was able to be placed in power. I have cited my sources previously to my points in Canon Law Study for Catholics voting. 

    Offline Matto

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    Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
    « Reply #348 on: September 01, 2020, 11:04:15 AM »
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  • Prior to Pope Leo XIII, the Catholics were taught to not vote in the elections of Italy due to Socialism. . . . Again Pope Leo said in an election with two Socialists you must vote for the lesser of two evils. Pope Pius XI scolded the Catholics in Germany for sitting out the election and said this is why Adolph Hitler was able to be placed in power.

    Leo XIII and Pius XI, antipopes.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
    « Reply #349 on: September 01, 2020, 11:12:57 AM »
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  • I understand what you are saying. BUT CAN YOU SHOW ME WHERE YOU ARE FINDING THIS??? Prior to Pope Leo XIII, the Catholics were taught to not vote in the elections of Italy due to Socialism.  I can see your point that you speak of here. Now again Pope Leo XIII had a different view and that view was the Catholics needed to vote. Again Pope Leo said in an election with two Socialists you must vote for the lesser of two evils. Pope Pius XI scolded the Catholics in Germany for sitting out the election and said this is why Adolph Hitler was able to be placed in power. I have cited my sources previously to my points in Canon Law Study for Catholics voting.

    No, the expression that's faulty is "lesser of two evils" ... that is not Catholic and is equivalent to "end justifies the means".  It's Catholic moral theology 101.  You cannot do an evil even to prevent a much greater evil.  One can vote for the less defective candidate based on double effect.  Cite Pope Leo XIII on this point instead of paraphrasing.  I've seen repeated anecdotal references but never an actual citation.  As for Pius XI, there's no reference to who the alternate candidate was.  Again, citation please.  Frankly, had I been a German, I might have voted Hitler at the time, since his platform was one of nationalism more than anything else.  Pius XI was also the man who betrayed the Cristeros.

    If you want to vote for Trump, it can be done, but please use Catholic language and rephrase it as an exercise in double effect.  Constantly using the utilitarian "lesser of two evils" phrase can be pernicious.  It's the same reasoning which would have some people think it's OK to kill a couple innocent people in order to save millions.  There was a TV show some years ago in which a terrorist threatened to unleash a nuclear weapon on a city if the U.S. agent did not kill another agent (who was innocent) ... because that agent was getting too close to finding him.  So the guy did it.  Too man Catholics might start reasoning that this would be OK and start warping their Catholic sense for moral theology.  It's not any kind of dilemma.  You are not permitted to take that single innocent life even if it's to potentially save millions.  You cannot perpetrate that evil even to prevent a greater evil.  You cannot do the "lesser evil".


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
    « Reply #350 on: September 01, 2020, 11:25:28 AM »
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  • Here are some examples.  Let's say I have to drive a doctor to a remote emergency clinic in order to save someone's life.  But the doctor, while there, intends to also perform a vasectomy on another patient there.  That's very close to what voting is (driving someone to a position where they can do something).  I can drive the doctor to the clinic based on double effect, intending to save the life but not intending the vasectomy ... which would happen nevertheless as a consequence of driving him there.

    So the principles of double effect must be that the good consequence must far outweigh the negative consequence.  If, however, this doctor would, in addition to saving the life, intend to perform an abortion, I cannot drive him there, since the evil of the abortion is not clearly outweighed by the saving of the other life.  Also, the evil effect must be indirectly caused by the original action, so driving him there does not directly cause the vasectomy, but leads to in indirectly.

    So with Trump, one can argue that the evil of abortion far outweighs the evil of sodomy ... and it's unlikely that ANY candidate would outlaw sodomy anyway.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
    « Reply #351 on: September 01, 2020, 11:30:36 AM »
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  •  Pius XI was also the man who betrayed the Cristeros.
    Lad, your point is well taken regarding double effect, but I would tread carefully when you attribute betrayal to Pope Piux XI. We don’t have all of the facts in the case nor do we know what his councilors, perhaps erroneously, told him. Obviously, in retrospect, his decision was a poor one, but remember that it was God’s will that it happened that way.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
    « Reply #352 on: September 01, 2020, 11:40:57 AM »
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  • Lad, your point is well taken regarding double effect, but I would tread carefully when you attribute betrayal to Pope Piux XI. We don’t have all of the facts in the case nor do we know what his councilors, perhaps erroneously, told him. Obviously, in retrospect, his decision was a poor one, but remember that it was God’s will that it happened that way.

    Sure it was God's will in the end, just like the consequences of any error or sin.  So, for instance, if a man murders someone, it was God's will that the victim die that day, even if it wasn't God's will that the perpetrator commit that sin.

    Pius XI, like Benedict XV before him and Pius XII after him, was a diplomat and was too ready making deals with the enemies of the Church.  Regardless of his intentions, this was an objective betrayal.  It goes without saying that only God can judge his intentions.
    Quote
    Ratti’s cursus honorum is marked by a high cultural level combined with a shrewd political skill. He never abandoned intransigent ecclesiology: his main aim was defending and preserving the rights and privileges of the Catholic Church, even at the cost to sign “pact(s) with the devil(s).” I think, as Kertzer demonstrates, that this primary intention of Pius XI should never be forgotten. Even if during his pontificate he had often realized and feared the incongruity of these “partnerships,” it was only at the end of his life that he definitely recognized that the costs had been, and kept on being, too high.

    Benedict XV through Pius XII, unlike St. Pius X, were constantly extending olive branches to the enemies of the Church, both political and theological, and this all lead up to Vatican II.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
    « Reply #353 on: September 01, 2020, 11:45:57 AM »
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  • https://catholicism.org/valor-betrayal-cristeros.html


    Quote
    The story of the Cristeros, alas, is not one of victory. That does not make it less than inspiring, however, for if they finally laid down their arms, they did not really surrender to the Revolution against which they fought. Militarily they had brilliant successes, and that they could ultimately have prevailed in the field is possible. In May, 1929, it even looked likely. However, they lacked the support they deserved. This is not to speak of popular support, for theirs was already genuinely a popular rising. What was missing, except at the very beginning (and which was not of a practical nature even then) was the support of the bishops of the Church in Mexico. Missing too was the support of the Holy See, which had once thundered against the regime in Mexico City, but that was before a deal was reached with it, a deal fatal to the Cristeros. Insofar as the bishops and Holy See went the route they did, instead of supporting the Cristeros, it could be said the peasant-warriors were betrayed by the very men for whom they fought. 

    Betrayed they were.

    Offline PAT317

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    Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
    « Reply #354 on: September 01, 2020, 11:50:13 AM »
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  • No, the expression that's faulty is "lesser of two evils" ... that is not Catholic and is equivalent to "end justifies the means".  It's Catholic moral theology 101.  You cannot do an evil even to prevent a much greater evil.  One can vote for the less defective candidate based on double effect.  ...
    ... please use Catholic language and rephrase it as an exercise in double effect.  Constantly using the utilitarian "lesser of two evils" phrase can be pernicious.  It's the same reasoning which would have some people think it's OK to kill a couple innocent people in order to save millions.  There was a TV show some years ago in which a terrorist threatened to unleash a nuclear weapon on a city if the U.S. agent did not kill another agent (who was innocent) ... because that agent was getting too close to finding him.  So the guy did it.  Too many Catholics might start reasoning that this would be OK and start warping their Catholic sense for moral theology.  It's not any kind of dilemma.  You are not permitted to take that single innocent life even if it's to potentially save millions.  You cannot perpetrate that evil even to prevent a greater evil.  You cannot do the "lesser evil".
    Well said. 
    ...Cite Pope Leo XIII on this point instead of paraphrasing.  I've seen repeated anecdotal references but never an actual citation.  As for Pius XI, there's no reference to who the alternate candidate was.  Again, citation please.  ...
    I second that request.  

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
    « Reply #355 on: September 01, 2020, 12:28:30 PM »
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  • Sure it was God's will in the end, just like the consequences of any error or sin.  So, for instance, if a man murders someone, it was God's will that the victim die that day, even if it wasn't God's will that the perpetrator commit that sin.

    Pius XI, like Benedict XV before him and Pius XII after him, was a diplomat and was too ready making deals with the enemies of the Church.  Regardless of his intentions, this was an objective betrayal.  It goes without saying that only God can judge his intentions.
    Benedict XV through Pius XII, unlike St. Pius X, were constantly extending olive branches to the enemies of the Church, both political and theological, and this all lead up to Vatican II.
    Fine, I agree with most of this except that the word “betrayal” has a connotation of evil intent. I think better words you could have used would be: horrible, stupid, or even incompetent. Now I will stop the derailment.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
    « Reply #356 on: September 01, 2020, 01:08:57 PM »
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  • I agree with QvD.  The prudence of Pius XI in handling the cristeros situation can be debated.  But Catholicism, unlike Mohammedism is not a political movement.  There is no divine mandate to fight for and establish Catholic states.  Obviously Catholic government is desirable but it isn’t absolutely necessary.  If it comes at the expense of souls then its value is greatly mitigated. A pope has to weigh all these things and then decide on the best way forward.  Sometimes mistakes are made.  That doesn’t mean the pope was vicious or malicious.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
    « Reply #357 on: September 02, 2020, 12:41:03 AM »
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  • No, the expression that's faulty is "lesser of two evils" ... that is not Catholic and is equivalent to "end justifies the means".  It's Catholic moral theology 101.  You cannot do an evil even to prevent a much greater evil.  One can vote for the less defective candidate based on double effect.  Cite Pope Leo XIII on this point instead of paraphrasing.  I've seen repeated anecdotal references but never an actual citation.  As for Pius XI, there's no reference to who the alternate candidate was.  Again, citation please.  Frankly, had I been a German, I might have voted Hitler at the time, since his platform was one of nationalism more than anything else.  Pius XI was also the man who betrayed the Cristeros.

    If you want to vote for Trump, it can be done, but please use Catholic language and rephrase it as an exercise in double effect.  Constantly using the utilitarian "lesser of two evils" phrase can be pernicious.  It's the same reasoning which would have some people think it's OK to kill a couple innocent people in order to save millions.  There was a TV show some years ago in which a terrorist threatened to unleash a nuclear weapon on a city if the U.S. agent did not kill another agent (who was innocent) ... because that agent was getting too close to finding him.  So the guy did it.  Too man Catholics might start reasoning that this would be OK and start warping their Catholic sense for moral theology.  It's not any kind of dilemma.  You are not permitted to take that single innocent life even if it's to potentially save millions.  You cannot perpetrate that evil even to prevent a greater evil.  You cannot do the "lesser evil".
    I agree with this.  

    I believe the situation with Italy wasn't socialism, but the conquest of the papal states leading the Popes to not recognize Italy.  I might be wrong about that.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
    « Reply #358 on: September 02, 2020, 06:11:52 AM »
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  • I agree with QvD.  The prudence of Pius XI in handling the cristeros situation can be debated.  But Catholicism, unlike Mohammedism is not a political movement.  There is no divine mandate to fight for and establish Catholic states.  Obviously Catholic government is desirable but it isn’t absolutely necessary.  If it comes at the expense of souls then its value is greatly mitigated. A pope has to weigh all these things and then decide on the best way forward.  Sometimes mistakes are made.  That doesn’t mean the pope was vicious or malicious.

    No one is accusing him of having been malicious.  But it's quite clear that the Popes after St. Pius X were softer on Modernism, trying to make peace with the enemies of the Church, and this had devastating consequences.

    Terrible mistakes were made.  And Pius XII even made terrible doctrinal mistakes, like opening the door to evolution and to natural birth control.  He also appointed all the Modernist/heretical bishops who would later bring us Vatican II.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
    « Reply #359 on: September 02, 2020, 11:12:53 AM »
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  • No one is accusing him of having been malicious.  But it's quite clear that the Popes after St. Pius X were softer on Modernism, trying to make peace with the enemies of the Church, and this had devastating consequences.

    Terrible mistakes were made.  And Pius XII even made terrible doctrinal mistakes, like opening the door to evolution and to natural birth control.  He also appointed all the Modernist/heretical bishops who would later bring us Vatican II.
    Using the word “betrayed” implies malice by definition.  In the context its meaning is “to deliver to an enemy by treachery”.  QvD objected to that word and I agree with him.  Pius XI did not betray the Cristeros.  I would agree with those who argue that it probably would have worked out better if they had been permitted to fight on.  But given they didn’t have much support from the bishops, Pius XI didn’t see how the fight was going to result in anything good for souls.  Go ahead and debate that decision but don’t say that he betrayed the Cristeros.