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Author Topic: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?  (Read 10735 times)

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Online Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
« Reply #330 on: August 30, 2020, 07:00:39 AM »
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    • Quote from: alaric on August 30, 2020, 06:30:24 AM
    There is no dilemma here for me, there is only reality. And the reality is we have only two choices for now.

    A man who will lead us forward into progress, safety and wealth. Or a man who will lead us into the darkness, danger, violence,death and destruction and hand the country over to the globalists for our ultimate national demise.

    The choice is simple for me, FOR NOW. I'm not getting into all the explanations and assumptions we've been over and over on this thread, it's become quite tiresome and at this point not productive anymore. Occam's razor need apply here.

    I'm voting for Trump because I believe that is what's best for me, my family, the Church and the state at large.

    If I'd lived in Syria and I had to choose between Assad and ISIS, the decision couldn't be more obvious at the clear and present danger to me and my family  in the present situation. Even though Assad is a "muslim", I have to support him.


    And that's what we have here, Trump (Assad) is not perfect, but he's the way we HAVE to go. Because Biden (ISIS) and his party of terrorists will actively pursue our ultimate destruction. And that IS THE REALITY. I've been saying for quite some time now, WE ARE IN cινιℓ ωαr, whether you want to accept it or not, matters not, it's coming to your doorstep and for some in this country ( I personally know some it has ) it's already there. And just like in Syria, I don't have to wait until they have  public executions of political enemies or start beheading catholic bishops and priests to try and do something about it NOW.


    This is about all I'm going to say on this from this point forward. I don't believe it's a mortal sin to vote for Trump.

    Indeed, I'm about the point where I believe it's a mortal sin if you don't. ( well not really, but it's THAT important)
    Good post, alaric.👍 It seems that some of those who think it’s a mortal sin to vote for Trump are somewhat puritanical. I hate to say it but, they almost approach a Jansenistic mentality. For the record, I don't believe it’s a sin if you *don’t* vote for Trump if your conscience is telling you not to.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Croixalist

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    Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
    « Reply #331 on: August 30, 2020, 07:31:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: alaric on August 30, 2020, 06:30:24 AM
    There is no dilemma here for me, there is only reality. And the reality is we have only two choices for now.

    A man who will lead us forward into progress, safety and wealth. Or a man who will lead us into the darkness, danger, violence,death and destruction and hand the country over to the globalists for our ultimate national demise.

    The choice is simple for me, FOR NOW. I'm not getting into all the explanations and assumptions we've been over and over on this thread, it's become quite tiresome and at this point not productive anymore. Occam's razor need apply here.

    I'm voting for Trump because I believe that is what's best for me, my family, the Church and the state at large.

    If I'd lived in Syria and I had to choose between Assad and ISIS, the decision couldn't be more obvious at the clear and present danger to me and my family  in the present situation. Even though Assad is a "muslim", I have to support him.


    And that's what we have here, Trump (Assad) is not perfect, but he's the way we HAVE to go. Because Biden (ISIS) and his party of terrorists will actively pursue our ultimate destruction. And that IS THE REALITY. I've been saying for quite some time now, WE ARE IN cινιℓ ωαr, whether you want to accept it or not, matters not, it's coming to your doorstep and for some in this country ( I personally know some it has ) it's already there. And just like in Syria, I don't have to wait until they have  public executions of political enemies or start beheading catholic bishops and priests to try and do something about it NOW.


    This is about all I'm going to say on this from this point forward. I don't believe it's a mortal sin to vote for Trump.

    Indeed, I'm about the point where I believe it's a mortal sin if you don't. ( well not really, but it's THAT important)

    Third option: Pray that all evil players are removed from the board and start over.

    Reality: You've turned Trump from merely less terrible than Biden to "a man who will lead us forward into progress, safety and wealth." This is pure propaganda. We've seen the progress and it's not towards the Church. In some ways it's worse than if we had a Democrat in office, because he has successfully associated some liberal causes firmly within the "conservative" bracket now. You've managed to turn him into the only option. If that's the case, you better be sure God is behind it. We know He's not based on Trump's own deplorable agenda played out over the course of 4 years.

    As the increasing prospect of martyrdom rears its many ugly heads, we'll never be prepared if this is the stance we are accustomed to.

    Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on August 30, 2020, 07:00:39 AM
    Good post, alaric.👍 It seems that some of those who think it’s a mortal sin to vote for Trump are somewhat puritanical. I hate to say it but, they almost approach a Jansenistic mentality. For the record, I don't believe it’s a sin if you *don’t* vote for Trump if your conscience is telling you not to.

    I don't think it's a mortal sin either, but it is a waste of time and can eventually lead to sin if you become too caught up in the Trump indoctrination campaign like alaric here.
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    Online Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
    « Reply #332 on: August 30, 2020, 08:08:04 AM »
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    • Quote from: Croixalist on August 30, 2020, 07:31:00 AM

    I don't think it's a mortal sin either, but it is a waste of time and can eventually lead to sin if you become too caught up in the Trump indoctrination campaign like alaric here.


    Good to hear, but one major point of disagreement is my belief that I don’t think it’s a waste of time. Trump, with all of his issues, *can* be the catalyst for a peaceful restoration to the founders (some obviously erroneous) principles and then a possibility for us catholics to carve out a niche to create a truly Catholic society. I know it’s seems highly unlikely, but I think it’s something both you, I and most all readers of this forum would be in favor of.  
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Croixalist

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    Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
    « Reply #333 on: August 30, 2020, 11:41:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on August 30, 2020, 08:08:04 AM

    Good to hear, but one major point of disagreement is my belief that I don’t think it’s a waste of time. Trump, with all of his issues, *can* be the catalyst for a peaceful restoration to the founders (some obviously erroneous) principles and then a possibility for us catholics to carve out a niche to create a truly Catholic society. I know it’s seems highly unlikely, but I think it’s something both you, I and most all readers of this forum would be in favor of.  

    It would still take a miracle! But a miracle is a miracle. I'm certain it won't fall out like that, but I can appreciate the desire for more space to operate in. I just think that phase in this country's history has drawn to a close.

    Here's to a miracle!

    :incense:
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    Offline sedevacantist3

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    Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
    « Reply #334 on: August 30, 2020, 04:20:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on August 30, 2020, 08:08:04 AM

    Good to hear, but one major point of disagreement is my belief that I don’t think it’s a waste of time. Trump, with all of his issues, *can* be the catalyst for a peaceful restoration to the founders (some obviously erroneous) principles and then a possibility for us catholics to carve out a niche to create a truly Catholic society. I know it’s seems highly unlikely, but I think it’s something both you, I and most all readers of this forum would be in favor of.  
    Trump must  keep in line with his Jєωιѕн controlers, since he is now pro vaccination  there is no point in voting , America is cooked , stick a fork into it.
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
    « Reply #335 on: August 30, 2020, 04:38:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: sedevacantist3 on August 30, 2020, 04:20:04 PM
    Trump must  keep in line with his Jєωιѕн controlers, since he is now pro vaccination  there is no point in voting , America is cooked , stick a fork into it.

    Well... yes, we’re so surrounded it is comical... to the point of tears :facepalm:

    But a miracle will happen at some point in time.

    Our Lady Triumphs!

    The Jєωs are defeated.

    We just have to pray hard for it to happen sooner rather than later.
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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
    « Reply #336 on: August 30, 2020, 06:59:59 PM »
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    • The current situation in the US could be compared to France in the early 19th century.  There’s little hope for a Catholic government but the possibility of either a militant atheist government or a government tolerant of religion (Napoleon) is still in play.  Trump is the Napoleon option.  Biden/hαɾɾιs is the Revolutionary government.  If you want to take a chance on getting your family guillotined then by all means don’t vote.
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    Offline Matto

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    Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
    « Reply #337 on: August 30, 2020, 07:03:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on August 30, 2020, 06:59:59 PM
    Trump is the Napoleon option.
    It would be really cool if Trump kidnapped Bergoglio and made him crown him emperor. I think I am alone on this forum in expressing the desire for Trump to declare himself dictator (even though I don't really like him).
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
    « Reply #338 on: August 30, 2020, 07:16:31 PM »
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    • Very few of us who are against voting Trump have said that it would be a sin.  I believe that one could justify it with double effect. I just believe that all candidates are controlled by the Jєωs and that our vote will have no bearing on whom the Jєωs select for the office.
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
    « Reply #339 on: August 31, 2020, 09:42:57 AM »
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    • I wonder if the Jєωs liked "Ave Maria" sung at the White House. I bet not. Maybe Trump has some autonomy.....or at least he may be fighting back .
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
    « Reply #340 on: August 31, 2020, 11:40:24 AM »
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    • Quote from: josefamenendez on August 31, 2020, 09:42:57 AM
    Maybe Trump has some autonomy....

    Not in any matter that is important to his Jєωιѕн handlers.
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    Offline Aristotl

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    Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
    « Reply #341 on: August 31, 2020, 12:43:55 PM »
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    • The main thing to look at is the freedom to worship our Catholic Faith. There is a lesser of two evils and unless we want to put Biden /hαɾɾιs in office we must vote.  I want to continue to enjoy the freedoms of this great nation. Is Trump the greatest no but he's all we have. So even on the higher level of Theology, you must vote for the lesser of two evils. Even the NO bishops are using Mystici Corporis by His Holiness Pope Pius XII to site reasons not to vote for Biden. 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
    « Reply #342 on: August 31, 2020, 01:33:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Aristotl on August 31, 2020, 12:43:55 PM
    There is a lesser of two evils ...

    Not for Catholics.  "Lesser of two evils" is contrary to core Catholic principles.  Catholics think in terms of "double effect."  I'm not sure how many times i need to repeat this.  Catholics can never do evil even to prevent a much greater evil.  But Catholics may make a choice with an intended good outcome even if unintended bad outcomes might result as well ... if certain conditions apply.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
    « Reply #343 on: August 31, 2020, 03:13:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 31, 2020, 01:33:36 PM
    Not for Catholics.  "Lesser of two evils" is contrary to core Catholic principles.  Catholics think in terms of "double effect."  I'm not sure how many times i need to repeat this.  Catholics can never do evil even to prevent a much greater evil.  But Catholics may make a choice with an intended good outcome even if unintended bad outcomes might result as well ... if certain conditions apply.
    It is a basic point of the faith that we cannot promote or otherwise endorse evil in order to achieve good. I do not see where voting for Trump is endorsing evil, otoh, it is easy to see that voting for Biden is certain to promote and endorse evil.       
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
    « Reply #344 on: August 31, 2020, 06:07:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on August 31, 2020, 03:13:20 PM
    It is a basic point of the faith that we cannot promote or otherwise endorse evil in order to achieve good. I do not see where voting for Trump is endorsing evil, otoh, it is easy to see that voting for Biden is certain to promote and endorse evil.      

    Well, when one is voting for Trump, one is voting for some evils that come along with him (that have been adequately docuмented on this thread).  So, for instance, one is voting for someone who condones and even glorifies sodomy.  At the same time one is voting for someone who has shown some commitment in favor of the unborn.  So there's some good, and there's some bad.

    But what a Catholic voter does is to promote the good (anti-abortion) while also at the same time recognizing that there's evil that has come along with it.  So, for instance, the classic case of double effect is to perform an operation in an ektopic pregnancy to save the mother's life, knowing, however, that it will cost the life of the unborn child.  Even such an operation has to be performed very carefully so that one does not directly take the life of the unborn child, but, rather, removes the thread to the mother, without directly causing the death of the unborn child.  So the question of double effect with Trump is whether one's vote actually directly causes the evils that might be promoted by Trump during a second term.  This is where the application of double effect to voting becomes murky, and this really needs to be developed by Catholic moral theologians.  It's an extremely neglected aspect of Catholic moral theology.
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