President Trump is the most pro-gαy president in American history. I can prove it.
My name is Ric Grenell. I’m America’s first openly gαy cabinet member.
As a United States senator, Joe Biden said gαy people couldn’t receive security clearances because we would be a security risk.
Joe must have been terrified when Donald Trump appointed me as Acting Director of National Intelligence.
The fact that I’m gαy didn’t even faze Donald Trump.
Joe Biden certainly didn’t congratulate the appointment or even acknowledge it.
But his silence was deafening.
President Trump has done more to advance the rights of gαys and lesbians in three years than Joe Biden did in forty plus years in Washington.
For four decades, Joe Biden has attacked the LGBT community.
As a U.S. senator, Biden supported “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” and the “Defense of Marriage Act.”
Biden voted to cut off federal funds to any school that teaches acceptance of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity. Biden said again and again that he was against marriage equality.
[Biden video clip]
And now, well, now that we’ve made progress, Joe Biden has changed his mind.
I know firsthand that President Trump is the strongest ally that gαy Americans have ever had in the White House.
Donald Trump is the first president in American history to be pro-gαy marriage from his first day in office.
President Trump knew I was gαy when he appointed me to one of the most prestigious and powerful ambassadorships in the world.
As Ambassador to Germany, President Trump fully supported our fight to crush the homophobic and barbaric Islamic terrorist organization, Hezbollah, and the Iranian regime that supports them.
While President Trump was denying the homophobic regime money, the Obama-Biden team was giving them billions of dollars.
Joe Biden not only admits it, he says he’ll do it again if elected president.
[Biden video clip]
President Trump began a historic campaign to decriminalize ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity around the globe at the United Nations, where he publicly challenged the 69 countries who make being gαy a crime to change their laws.
[Trump video clip]
gαys and lesbians can be put to death in 9 countries just for being who we are.
So why did Joe Biden fail to make this issue a priority in his more than 40 years in Washington?
He’s never answered this question.
This is why I believe we need President Trump in office for another 4 years. And I’m certainly not the only one.
There are millions of patriotic gαy Americans who are sick of being told to “sit down and shut up” by those who want to control us; Those who are afraid of our voice; Those who want to keep equality a partisan issue.
They tell us our opinions don't’ matter because we don’t subscribe to their ‘group think.’ They try and bully us into silence.
But in my experience, proud gαy people don’t like to be silent. They like to be loud.
Yesterday’s champions of diversity are today’s intolerance.
Well I love this country and I’m not going to be silent.
There are tens of thousands of gαy conservatives just like me who also won’t be silent.
gαy people don’t have to vote Democrat, because Donald Trump is the most pro-gαy president in American history.
Log Cabin Republicans(http://data:image/jpeg;base64,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αzι5BdiEmxZ26lEoqSwyYycXlcmW6T6Nz2GX1ilzSW8i3S4vFjzF2dT+e3jwNZo3U+qPu/seg0msV66ZbS/cj4KjOua4mzA3v1JBW0QzS/b0pZ4pG47cGdn7Hb5sytotccw7M5fi1SellL0RDZ9xTjc8UeUccUtR9YLKO3eUzbS2Hgk3hjykpvtZB5O3KXYqZz4Qr52E7b/fZ/BNb7iB8HtWGety/hRB4gQKlGQBupVLLLa7nBNLuRGXIf5v3WrOwhaqYhOiyrmTTUxSBlH7UfxLanwSelFniQpbgNRjE90la3gDypoyrYvU4iESm3BI+DY87p6rFGSk+xo0kXK+CXqWihpILXb4qGl+yj6T8TJ9ru/a7rLda7puTPd1VKEcIRqqrICWMS5ItOh+iRTlHcrzFlj2PFTE21+py7Opufn6n7Wj0P8AfZ9EcnW67Ga6n83/AAaMuuccEACABAAgAQAIAEACAEphjOIhlYSjJnzMXDDnx7FDxjcE8bmR6Sw2mnrc1hqtcJFvxMzuAv8AhPg7dm3v6vO6qOnUvw5fT/Zvq8crium3L+KIirqc1FLHlLMQ4ZcO1Y4pdWSdZ4lpbtJNQlu1w+SKGKQ+WOUVc5JHlCQt9tkqj90VntuUAJmuijoqLVh7qyVyc55BkHZBz1EpLZqHiKQMVkH+0CSp+QB1MHslXF7kEOMOcy+Ja+rAw4jmkpwykKrcVJ5IwKUlP60Epe8lnPpaAIxID1co7yG87oD17cWt1gjmFCuWMFlUoqXmWx41DJFUDNlLdLHKp9smsFtV8ar1YlsnnA8jOeslGnpYZJJy5IC2L/8AztT11ObxHc9pptdTqK/aReMc57F90Y0MjoTGsu+War4hFxCJ+vtft4N813NLoVDzT3f7HP1Wvc/LXsv1ZdF0TmggBGonipoimnkGOMdpET4MySU4wXVJ4RDaSyyuVGmNML401LNNH/Md2Bn7sdvnguTZ4zRGWIpv9DM9VHsiYtF2pbrRNU074Ni4kJcRJuLOujTqa7YdaLoWxkskitBYCABAAgAQBTfSPVyR22mpIiyjUSPrMOcWbHDxd28lzPE7ZQqSXcyayTUUl3K1QUcGqHdXkbLJZMCQrNR03uilVkiXgiLhTxgBZVqqm29xBva7kNPFlT3UuTyTwMbvcvWvZgrqKejdkpDvR4BECJV6pvKQHlU39ofEiHuEDuUPZKqL3II+jjzyl8SvsexI9kpRMFSrAGtKfqUuU+SStmutAd1k0dQY6rlJa4uK3An7YI6oRNYrc5JiPZoI9VyVVGTyO0sCWhMnq+lWri5M0RiXhg7P8vmvR+ETftceqLNI8WYNHKphEspzRiXU5NivRdUfU6XUhVnTEnqAM+9JtTNFUW+MsfVCYj2cHNnbj3M+zvdcbxbqaiuxj1bey7FVO5+yy5vJefVO5kLXo5oxVS295queWjKU3IYscHy4MzO7cz7F39NoZ+zWTVXTLp4LxNVU9PlaeeOPNyc5M2PmuvKcY+80jY5JcsVExMMwkJD1ttZMnngk7UgIzzR08JzSkwxxi5ET8zM210spKKbfBDaSyyiXLSu6VpENrEaWDoyODEbt1vjsbuw8V57U+LyzivZfqYJ6qT93Yrt4ul2qqcYa+b1gBkYxJwZiZ8HbY7M2zB+dZpayd8embyUzslJYkNqa6ZAymSxzoyVYYrJdB95KqGGBrJ6zW7ojlFWrpgCR4dqyByUK/LJI46f6wIgtCn5ck5FYxlilIYiypG1JZZBIUVERnrJSzEqLLFjCIH1THkiVMHlkETbiEpS+J/k+C1WrCQzJqOLOsbeCMC1TQx1FOMer3veSxtcXk0ScXBJLciJ7SVPvAS1RvUuSho5pq8qfdl3USq6uCMDqa75w5Srjp9w3IIq4passpEPMWDu2OPN3LfGDhHKGSwTNsjpuSYisVrkRhEuDzWstfa6go8u3Kz7r9jtwdGm1ltUvKx4ycN4s0OzV43O2QVYjl1g7w9RM+Dt5r2enuV1amu51K59cVI6uNvpLlT+r11OM0fHA+Z252fiz9rJ5wjNYkskyipLDGdu0bs9tkaWjoIwlHgZYmTdzu74eCrhpqq3mMRY1QjukTKvLDFjuRS3erK45tdrTYxLiDs7th3Nw8F5HWwnKyTfOTlzy5PIpFfZrNVDUUE27mxkix3JG52dv34ptHdbTLb7dghNweUbFGeeIT94WfzXrEdQhdNM3/TVZk/Bj3Zmx+Sw+IZ/ppY/7uUaj8tlDpJhCJeNnF5OYngYXOff5O6r6Yl9Uq8PrI5qYsmsMVf174KWObVTCe8kum0QyxQwRACwSk2MkNrgYxRFnVlSbZDISgi9Yqyk6K12S6Y4IZ1WR6qtFRW8wZBNUcecFkm9wSyeV0XskVvclrBV6fNT1Eo8rex810pYlFEvcm6KvEDynu96x2VPsQtiZiqYzDlLK4MfqEauYciaEWK2VO7mOcR/EunQngIj+hKiCn38qpsVmdgItqMaioKSLNvFzLR7RxikyckjRUc4yiObd7VROcWiYx6ngeSVRCfq/KLY2znd+DYKqNXVhoiUOl4NK0SopqCxwQ1Q5ZSzGQ+7i+OD9q9foqpVUqMuTpUQcYJMm1rLgQAIArOkOhtsvsuvlGSnq/wCfA7M79WLO2D/r2rPdpq7d3yVTpjPchrf6NKSCsCasuE1VGDsWp1bCxYczvi+LdjYKiGghGWW8la0yT3Zf1vNJnemdXU1l4loM5DTQiO4zuzEWGOL9fHBeb8V1Mva+zzsjnambc+nsVmaOSn6S5cXGRmCGET9pKSJSxsgPJ5RyZQ3lMYvkBpTVXq8u/wAlWTh1InBMR3McnKWV0sjcja+o9YlEc27mV9cOlZAlqQIIolmm5NkELcqqM60RzCtdUGoNkpErR1ogCzTrywWwncLiOTlJqqXknkjLfMPrGsMfNabYvpwhpRceRxeqqm1WsDdy9Sr08JZwRjIyproWTkkrZ0IhxFjrZ5Q3I5PJKqorlkYI2XWesDJUcn9FoWOnER1wcVRR+sey5OVk0E+ncFwStqnjWW6LILADRmCwvKJOIZitFwirqcRIoy3hdmfEX4s3U+HOtmk1MqpqQQk4SyjU4JRnhjmj2hILE3c7Yr2cWpJNHWTysiqYkEACABAAgAQBTdMbNOVQNzoIykLBhnAWxLBukzc+zY7djdq4vieilZ+JBfNGPU0t+aJT6icagF56MXFmEjxIs+rV7S5AlqKhiMN9ZrLGSlk5r7XFkU13MbGCrXCEqc8oEQ9zro1SUuSURkRz+sD7Qs3a+K0tR6eBnjBNxzVxhlBY3GtPJXhDeegl+0lzZveTxtXCJyPKMM9P9tvDysX24qqx4lwQxlUiUp5RzFl8ldBqKGi8bizUlSe9ye5I7ILYstu9pyhrWUsn3pEXera7F2K0x9aZYC3VRdGSFkiy0x0wRdFc+SlkEyGvLx1UuriHlLXRmKyyUxs1F6vlLlD2qz2nURnJ3cIoKfVTRdIsCwUVOUspghemr8nSVc6g3HISSXKoipaUSknkLARb9X7G53U1aeUpKMVuwUXJ4RsFHA1NSQwDwjjEPJsF7GEemKj6HXisJIcJyQQAIAEACABAAgBhVWi3VhZqqhp5C94o2x81TKiqe8op/QSVcZcor+kmi1J9GlJaaOKOpjLPgDbZBwfEfnj4LDq9DCVX4ccNfqUXULp8q3KdS1P4l5ecDnjxiGoAs8nJVeGmW1wUk8srF1YSNdCkWI8DQq50trkvNUIxxxjn1B46zLi2JO2GDYNtwfbhjwXUnpbPYub+3cvlVLo6mL2148i4ducmbI5qygyKuClkMlemhKWoGOlEilLYIxs7u79TM3FdCvMtsZGWR3SxFS1BQ1UJRyDygkBxJu9nVd8ZReGsENNPcmhmgyLC4yyRkia8NfKMMA5pJCYIxbi5O+DN5utlEZNpIlbsib5Y6/Ry5erVmUSkFpI5I3dxNn4szuzbWfY7d3Wy6t1Uq9pF84OOzFKeSpPd1iwSUF2KXgmLXSDnzS7xdqyXWPhEEjJQ/SVVTUMRZSmLJmwxw2Yu+HcynR1uyxR9SYR6pJIs9FoBbvVXjuhFVSZsRIHeNg7mZ9vivS0eHV1p9W7N0NNFLfc9H0c2MTzMVXl93Wth+mPzT/0FPxG/p4E/arLbrSDtQUoxkXKPiT97vtWiqiur3EWQrjHhEmrhwQAIAEACABAAgAQAIAEAQdz0atdxlOaWEo5nbekifK79rtwd+9lju0VNrzJb+pTOmue7RG/9B0Ob++VeT3cR/os3/wATT6v9P4K/6SPqyUtejVptsutgps04/eyvmJu7mbwZlrp0lVT8q39S2FNcOES0kYygUZixCQ4OL7WdnWlrOzLSi3H0f/WCO01rQxk2OqlF3y9xM+OHh4rl3eFxk8weDHPS7+VjeL0e10pfWrnCI/5cbk/zdlTDwr1kKtI+7LVYdGrdY2z00bnOQ4FPI+JO3U3U3Yy6VOnrp2itzVXTGHBzpFozRX0BKVyhqQbCOePizdTtzt2fojUaWFyxLn1IspjPkq5ej65MWUbpT5feeJ2fyx/dc5+E7+8Zv6R+pN6P6GUlomasqZiq6oG3Dccoh3Di+3td3WzT6KFHm5ZdXp41+Z7slNILFQ3+h9Xro+G9HIOw4362f9lqsqjbHEi2cFNYZmt60QrbEDzNVQTwdEton4tg7fNcTUaLofOxhsq6dyPts0tXOMULiJF72xvkucqFKXSUqOXg0rRrRp7dI1ZWTDNVuOA5ccoNz4Y7Xft2LuaHQxoxKW7ZtopUV1dyzrqGoEACABAAgAQAIA//2Q==)
http://www.logcabin.org/ (http://www.logcabin.org/)
Look, the guy is certainly NOT perfect. It is disgusting that he has no problem with sodomites and it’s been obvious from the beginning that he doesn’t have a Catholic attitude toward perversion. Come on, is anyone surprised by it? I’m not. I've said this many times on this forum, I’m voting for him because he is an outsider. The conspirators hate him, he is disrupting their plans. That is why we should vote for him.
Why should I care if a sodomite promoter is an insider or an outsider?
A Trump presidency ruins this country:
More souls will be damned for sodomy than for abortion.
If that is true, is Trump really the lesser evil??
Why should I care if a sodomite promoter is an insider or an outsider?I've read that approximately a quarter of American women will have an abortion in their lifetime. While not every one of them is damned(just as sodomites may reform), that's still far more "abortioners" than there are sodomites. And that's not even counting all the infants denied their chance at life and seeking their own salvation.
A Trump presidency ruins this country:
More souls will be damned for sodomy than for abortion.
If that is true, is Trump really the lesser evil??
I've read that approximately a quarter of American women will have an abortion in their lifetime. While not every one of them is damned(just as sodomites may reform), that's still far more "abortioners" than there are sodomites. And that's not even counting all the infants denied their chance at life and seeking their own salvation.There are about 1 million abortions/year in America.
And anyway, Biden supports the sodomite agenda even more than Trump does. At least Trump took trannies out of the military and heavily protested the Civil Rights Act being extended to gαys.
Trump is clearly immoral; even back in 2016 we knew he as a serial adulterer, an unscrupulous businessesman, and saw him wave a "pride" flag handed to him. So I respect your decision to refuse to vote for him. But let's not mischaracterise this as sodomy vs abortion; it's sodomy vs abortion and more sodomy.
There are about 1 million abortions/year in America.
There are untold millions of acts of sodomy/year in America.
Why should I care if a sodomite promoter is an insider or an outsider?
A Trump presidency ruins this country:
More souls will be damned for sodomy than for abortion.
If that is true, is Trump really the lesser evil??
Wouldn't the principle of double effect say that if you voted for Trump *because* of the good policies he supports or to *prevent* the (bad and perceived worse) bad policies of Joe Biden, that it wouldn't be a sin to vote for him?Couldn't I vote for Biden then for the same reasons?
(not condoning for or against voting for Trump, though I don't understand why this is surprising. We knew Trump supports ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity)
Forget the “lesser evil“ stuff, I don’t support any evil. In my mind, voting for Trump is not an evil, but actually a hope for
a better future.
And a Biden presidency won’t promote sodomy and abortion and communism and BLM and reparations and the Federal Reserve and globalization and welfare and Obamacare and tranny surgery and gun confiscation and the suppression of the Catholic mass?
Couldn't I vote for Biden then for the same reasons?I don't conceptually understand how you could frame a case for doing this. I've never seen a Traditional Catholic (And I'm being really broad here) even try. And usually when Novus Ordos do, its something like "sure Biden supports child murder and whatnot, but like, Trump isn't perfect on abortion either, but look at all the *other* Catholic things the Democratic Party agrees with like no death penalty and allowing more immigration and being pro "social justice" and BLM and... you get the idea. Stuff that isn't *even* really Catholic, just the more liberal side of the NO.
I don't conceptually understand how you could frame a case for doing this. I've never seen a Traditional Catholic (And I'm being really broad here) even try. And usually when Novus Ordos do, its something like "sure Biden supports child murder and whatnot, but like, Trump isn't perfect on abortion either, but look at all the *other* Catholic things the Democratic Party agrees with like no death penalty and allowing more immigration and being pro "social justice" and BLM and... you get the idea. Stuff that isn't *even* really Catholic, just the more liberal side of the NO.Have you ever seen a traditional Catholic promote Trump on any other basis than the alleged and illusory end to abortion schtick?
Honestly the only reason I could even fathom to vote for Joe Biden would be something purely realpolitik and having nothing to do with the candidates themselves... something like "if Biden wins that will divide our enemies into Neoliberal and Progressive factions" or something like that. I personally wouldn't do that, but I'm not sure I'd accuse someone who did decide to pursue that strategy of mortal sin.
But otherwise.... like what argument could you even construct for doing that? I suppose maybe if you sincerely thought Trump was going to bring about nuclear annihilation, that could trump the evil of a pro abortion position, maybe and arguably (not certainly by any stretch.) But the evidence is against that too, Trump has been comparatively restrained on foreign policy too.
To be clear, I'm not even trying to argue *for* a Trump vote, just wondering how we can make an accusation of grave sin.
If you can’t distinguish between Demonrats and Republicans, I feel sorry for you. The Trump admin worked against state governments that were trying to shut down churches during the Covid lockdowns. Do you think Biden/hαɾɾιs will do the same? In fact, federally there is no lockdown at all. The lockdowns are state initiatives. And they are mostly demonrat states. Some states had no masking and no lockdowns. They were Republicans. So demonrat vs republican has consequences. If the demonrats get the White House and Congress you should expect laws that will outlaw the practice of our Catholic religion. I know some clergy are already considering possible contingencies. But if it happens expect a lot of misery for yourself if you continue to practice your faith.And if you do distinguish between democans and republicrats, I feel even sorrier for you:
And if you do distinguish between democans and republicrats, I feel even sorrier for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgGnBCDfCLM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgGnBCDfCLM)
First Pence blasts Q as a "conspiracy theory" (he actually used that term! educated Catholics will understand the grave and deep significance of using that term*)Pence received an envelope at H.W. Bush’s funeral. We’ve known along that he was at best a grey hat.
God is trying to tell me something. I guess I have another 20 min. of free time this November 3rd.
*According to Zero Hedge (https://www.bing.com/search?q=Zero+Hedge&filters=sid%3a3d8be68c-436f-3d7d-ac90-88ac76c5fd2b&form=ENTLNK), the term Conspiracy Theory was created by the CIA in 1967 as a way to discredit anyone who dared to challenge their official version of the truth (1).
Pence received an envelope at H.W. Bush’s funeral. We’ve known along that he was at best a grey hat.
One might sin if Trump was promising to, say, impose gαy marriage legislation at the federal level.Trump has revealed his hand in so many ways, but he gets a pass because he has very effectively used abortion to get into office. Why are Catholics so blind?
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But that already happened, and it had nothing to do with Trump. I am not seeing what the technical problem is, aside from him being morally repugnant. Not that that is irrelevant, but I don't see where sin enters the fray. It isn't sinful to vote for a man who believes x [sinful thing], it is sinful (or at least, could be) to vote for a man who promises to implement x [sinful thing].
And if you do distinguish between democans and republicrats, I feel even sorrier for you:Andrew Napolitano has never been married
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgGnBCDfCLM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgGnBCDfCLM)
Have you ever seen a traditional Catholic promote Trump on any other basis than the alleged and illusory end to abortion schtick?Yeah actually. And I don't buy the argument that Trump will end abortion. *at best* he might be more reluctant to use federal power against a State who decided to do the right thing.
I've been hearing that same argument for the last 30 years.
Yeah actually. And I don't buy the argument that Trump will end abortion. *at best* he might be more reluctant to use federal power against a State who decided to do the right thing.That was just a thought, given that he is promoting sodomy and the destruction of the family. I don't think I could vote for such a man without betraying my conscience (subjective), but I wonder whether any other knowing Catholic could do so without sin.
I'm not arguing for Trump per se though. I'm trying to understand the rationale that it could be mortal sin to vote for him
That was just a thought, given that he is promoting sodomy and the destruction of the family. I don't think I could vote for such a man without betraying my conscience (subjective), but I wonder whether any other knowing Catholic could do so without sin.At the least I can't imagine how it could be grave matter unless the intent was bad (ie. "I'm voting for Trump *because* I want ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ marriage, not in spite of it") and I don't really see how it could be a sin at all.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnx0ZXNsYXNlY3JldHMyfGd4OjJkNTk0Mzg3NTQ2NTI0NjA (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnx0ZXNsYXNlY3JldHMyfGd4OjJkNTk0Mzg3NTQ2NTI0NjA)Thanks for the link, SeanJohnson. This looks like good reading, and I will read it.
At the least I can't imagine how it could be grave matter unless the intent was bad (ie. "I'm voting for Trump *because* I want ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ marriage, not in spite of it") and I don't really see how it could be a sin at all.
Obviously practically everyone here has more lived experience in dealing with the lies of the political system than me.
How would any of you who are against Trump now respond to someone who says that if Trump is not re-elected, political Reactionaries and Right Wing Dissidents (who tend to promote policies at least favorable to Catholics) will never have a chance at turning the GOP around? Some would say (and I am somewhat convinced by this argument) that the whole Trump phenomenon has proven that there is the potential for a real reaction against the political system.
Therefore, if Trump loses, the Democrats will certainly clamp down on these voices, and prevent any potential of a Trump-like candidate ever getting into a serious position of power ever again. Even the dissemination of right wing ideas and certainly the authentic Catholic Faith will likely be banned under “hate speech” laws and whatnot.
Though, after reading about Trump’s ties with Epstein, it makes me think that perhaps the system will never allow for a real reactionary/dissident who is truly outside the system to gain power. More importantly, as SJ reiterated, is the question of whether voting for Trump is a sin or not.
Byz-I think the underlying philosophical question is, what is a vote? Is it an absolute endorsement of the candidate? Or is it a strategic calculation, much like the wielding of a weapon?
You do raise the ultimate question:
When is it grave matter to vote for a particular candidate?
Is it never sinful, because all candidates are sinners, and promote deranged policies?
Or, is it a weighing: One candidate promotes 6 abominations, while the other only promotes 2-3 abominations (as Matthew pointed out earlier)?
Or, does one abomination per candidate rule them both out?
And as regards the non-Catholic "lesser of two evils" schtick, since there is no necessity/compulsion to vote, how will one who votes for evil claim they had no choice?
Keeping in mind that the classic example of "double effect" is one man tied to the railroad track, while a bus of children stalls on another railroad track, and the person must make a choice to save one of the other, but cannot save both. In choosing one, he does not will the death of the other. But I do not see this necessity to choose present in the context of political elections (or, at least not between these two faulty candidates).
In other words, it is not clear to me that double effect is relevant here.
But the "lesser of two evils" without necessity is even on shakier ground: It is a simple matter of overlooking all the abominations of one candidate because they support their particular interest, while condemning the abominations in the other candidate.
It seems hypocritical and immoral somehow to me.
Look, the guy is certainly NOT perfect. It is disgusting that he has no problem with sodomites and it’s been obvious from the beginning that he doesn’t have a Catholic attitude toward perversion. Come on, is anyone surprised by it? I’m not. I've said this many times on this forum, I’m voting for him because he is an outsider. The conspirators hate him, he is disrupting their plans. That is why we should vote for him.He's always been after the'ecuмenical Christian' vote which now includes Catholics (mostly new church types) and LGBT votes because he believes that LGBT folk, cannot help being the way they are.
FWIW, here's an SSPX blurb on the subject:
"Clearly, we are no longer in the circuмstance of having to choose between Catholic and non-Catholic, morally upright and liberal representatives. All the alternatives are liberal, the deception and the manipulation of the public by the media is rampant. In practice, it generally comes down to the question of whether or not it is permissible to vote for an unworthy candidate (e.g., a candidate who only approves abortion in cases of rape or incest), for he would at least (we suppose) be the lesser evil. In such a case, there can be no obligation to vote, for all the reasons mentioned by Pope Pius XII that could oblige, no longer apply. Nevertheless, it is still permissible to vote in such a case, provided that one can be sure that there truly is a lesser evil, and that there is a grave reason to do so (e.g., to avoid abortion on demand, or promotion of unnatural methods of birth control), and one has the good intention of providing for the good of society as best one can. This is called material cooperation. However, it can never be obligatory."
http://archives.sspx.org/miscellaneous/catholic_principles_for_voting.htm (http://archives.sspx.org/miscellaneous/catholic_principles_for_voting.htm)
Application:
1) Is Trump TRULY a lesser evil? (Debatable, which means one is not sure)
2) Is there a grave reason to vote for him? (Abortion on demand will persist regardless of who is elected next)
Consequently, it is still not clear to me one can vote for Trump.
And just below that SSPX blurb is this concerning piece:
"However, it can be permissible to tolerate the lesser of two evils for a proportionate reason [without necessity? -SJ], and such toleration can be for the common good, precisely because it is the lesser of two evils. Thus it is possible to vote or even campaign for a candidate whose platform contains evils with which we do not agree. Everything depends upon a hierarchy of the most important values and issues taking priority over lesser ones.
For a Catholic, there can be no doubt that the issues that take the highest priority must be the moral issues, and not personal or economic issues. The whole continuation of society as we know it depends upon this, and those who deny the most basic principles of the natural order are bringing about an unheard of perversion. Consequently, it is permissible and prudent to vote on the one single issue of proscribing abortion, or forbidding same-sex marriages, or putting an end to euthanasia, or freedom of the Catholic Church to run educational institutions. All of these issues are of the utmost importance. Consequently, it would be permissible and prudent to vote for a candidate who promotes an unjust war, on the basis of one or other of these issues. Consequently, it is likewise permissible to vote for a candidate who is known to be a Freemason, although Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ is an evil society condemned by the Church and opposed to the Catholic Church, if he maintains an important principle of the natural law such as the evil of abortion.
Lesser issues are also of moral importance, such as the justice or injustice of a particular war, or the paying of a just wage to employees, maintaining the right to private property by limiting government intervention, and so on. All other things being equal, one could vote on the basis of such issues. However, it would be wrong to vote for a candidate who has a correct position on one of these issues, but a perverse and wrong position on a more important issue.
Consequently, it would be manifestly immoral and sinful to vote for a candidate who pretends to be Catholic, but who in fact is pro-abortion, pro-gαy, or pro-euthanasia."
One might sin if Trump was promising to, say, impose gαy marriage legislation at the federal level.Excellent point!
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But that already happened, and it had nothing to do with Trump. I am not seeing what the technical problem is, aside from him being morally repugnant. Not that that is irrelevant, but I don't see where sin enters the fray. It isn't sinful to vote for a man who believes x [sinful thing], it is sinful (or at least, could be) to vote for a man who promises to implement x [sinful thing].
True -- Even if a woman was very careless about it, using abortion for birth control, she would hardly have more than 1-2 abortions a year. How much sodomy is committed per sodomite per year?
Abortion and sodomy are 2 of the 4 Sins Crying Out To Heaven for Vengeance.
Both of the 2 major parties (face it, America is as solid 2-party system) back one or more of these sins. Very discouraging for Catholics, I must say.
Log Cabin RepublicansEven that name has a fag-sex connotation.
http://www.logcabin.org/ (http://www.logcabin.org/)
First Pence blasts Q as a "conspiracy theory" (he actually used that term! educated Catholics will understand the grave and deep significance of using that term*)I thought your message was Trump or bust this Nov? I thought you believed that ABORTION was the primary issue, not whether or not DT recognizes fαɢɢօtry? Because, we all knew from day one he did. There is no surprise here.
God is trying to tell me something. I guess I have another 20 min. of free time this November 3rd.
*According to Zero Hedge (https://www.bing.com/search?q=Zero+Hedge&filters=sid%3a3d8be68c-436f-3d7d-ac90-88ac76c5fd2b&form=ENTLNK), the term Conspiracy Theory was created by the CIA in 1967 as a way to discredit anyone who dared to challenge their official version of the truth (1).
. If Trump was any kind of good guy... he would be dead by now.
There are about 1 million abortions/year in America.1,000,000 legal reported abortions.
One might sin if Trump was promising to, say, impose gαy marriage legislation at the federal level.I would say, judge a man by his actions, not words. I think for the most part Trump's actions fall in line with what he says or believes. But he does not always deliver and that's for a reason. Of course, being an arrogant rich bastard that he is, he thinks he can say or push things on people because he has money and will get his way. that is not how things work in the world of politics, yes the rich and powerful usually dominate and set agenda, but not always.
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But that already happened, and it had nothing to do with Trump. I am not seeing what the technical problem is, aside from him being morally repugnant. Not that that is irrelevant, but I don't see where sin enters the fray. It isn't sinful to vote for a man who believes x [sinful thing], it is sinful (or at least, could be) to vote for a man who promises to implement x [sinful thing].
That was just a thought, given that he is promoting sodomy and the destruction of the family. I don't think I could vote for such a man without betraying my conscience (subjective), but I wonder whether any other knowing Catholic could do so without sin.But you can enable a demonic monster like Biden and the radical black racist hαɾɾιs to take control of the most powerful position on the planet? Is your Catholic conscience ok with that?
My thought is more concerned with the mindset that reasons, "Yeah, I know he's for the fαɢs and the breakup of the family, but he's conservative and we gotta keep Biden out."Do you have a better alternative? No, I didn't think so.
How is that not a culpable mindset: Knowing and consenting to putting a man in office who will violate natural law, and turning a blind eye (hard heart?) to it because someone else will violate natural law.
So two wrongs make a right?
Byz-And what happened while the commie, black racist, babykilling, fag-enabler Obama was in office for eight years? where was your catholic conscience about not voting the "lesser of two evils" then? Did a real "godly" man step up for you to coose and not worry about "sinning" in doing so? No and you know it.
You do raise the ultimate question:
When is it grave matter to vote for a particular candidate?
Is it never sinful, because all candidates are sinners, and promote deranged policies?
Or, is it a weighing: One candidate promotes 6 abominations, while the other only promotes 2-3 abominations (as Matthew pointed out earlier)?
Or, does one abomination per candidate rule them both out?
And as regards the non-Catholic "lesser of two evils" schtick, since there is no necessity/compulsion to vote, how will one who votes for evil claim they had no choice?
Keeping in mind that the classic example of "double effect" is one man tied to the railroad track, while a bus of children stalls on another railroad track, and the person must make a choice to save one of the other, but cannot save both. In choosing one, he does not will the death of the other. But I do not see this necessity to choose present in the context of political elections (or, at least not between these two faulty candidates).
In other words, it is not clear to me that double effect is relevant here.
But the "lesser of two evils" without necessity is even on shakier ground: It is a simple matter of overlooking all the abominations of one candidate because they support their particular interest, while condemning the abominations in the other candidate.
It seems hypocritical and immoral somehow to me.
This is not about "sin", this is about survival. Obama desecrated everything that this country and Christianity stands for he possibly could and Hilliary was intent on furthering that agenda until the very end. until FINALLY the NORMAL people in this country had enough and put the outsider Trump in play. And THEY were furious. And THEY have for four years done EVERYTHING to get him out, including unleash a BS virus and now a virtual race war and borderline Christian pogrom.This. All of this. All the above. Come on, guys, get some perspective here.
You can rationale all you want about "sin" or double effect you want. These people, if elected, are coming for YOU and everything you have and believe in. It's that simple. This is a war, you HAVE to choose.
One of the biggest lessons I learned in life: when 2 people or 2 sides are fighting, you do not always have a good guy. When 2 pagan tribes in Africa fight each other viciously to the death/genocide, which of the tribes is on God's side? Neither. Which one should you go out of your way to support? Neither.Not if you belong to one of the tribes. In that case you support your own tribe, because, if your tribe loses, you and your family will die.
Do you have a better alternative? No, I didn't think so.This is already beginning in Canada where christians have been fined and jailed for simply quoting Sacred Scripture. That is what you can expect from Biden/hαɾɾιs. And you can also expect that they will attempt (and likely succeed) in closing our churches. They will not tolerate the existence of any institution which questions the party line. Think peak Cancel Culture except instead of twitter storms they will be sending SWAT teams on Sunday mornings to arrest the priests and terrorize the faithful.
Just sit home on election day and twiddle your thumbs while the commies and they're black racist pets take the country over.
Oh yea, THEN you'll be ready to fight when they openly come after you and your's because you just happen to be Catholic/christian, male AND white....Good luck with that.
Do you have a better alternative? No, I didn't think so.Ahem, it was Trump who allowed the churches to be closed and facilitates globalism.
Just sit home on election day and twiddle your thumbs while the commies and they're black racist pets take the country over.
Oh yea, THEN you'll be ready to fight when they openly come after you and your's because you just happen to be Catholic/christian, male AND white....Good luck with that.
Ahem, it was Trump who allowed the churches to be closed and facilitates globalism.
Republicrats have selective perception.
Trump is president today, and has America in chaos and lockdown.
And what happened while the commie, black racist, babykilling, fag-enabler Obama was in office for eight years? where was your catholic conscience about not voting the "lesser of two evils" then? Did a real "godly" man step up for you to coose and not worry about "sinning" in doing so? No and you know it.
This is not about "sin", this is about survival. Obama desecrated everything that this country and Christianity stands for he possibly could and Hilliary was intent on furthering that agenda until the very end. until FINALLY the NORMAL people in this country had enough and put the outsider Trump in play. And THEY were furious. And THEY have for four years done EVERYTHING to get him out, including unleash a BS virus and now a virtual race war and borderline Christian pogrom.
You can rationale all you want about "sin" or double effect you want. These people, if elected, are coming for YOU and everything you have and believe in. It's that simple. This is a war, you HAVE to choose.
That's a lie. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-california-idUSKBN22W04ODo you understand the meaning of the word "ALLOWED?"
Trump didn't lock down. It was the governors. And when Trump tried to open things up the governors threatened to sue. So it is 100% on the governors.
That's a lie. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-california-idUSKBN22W04OTrump was the first to lock down travel between China and the US and began adding countries day by day. It was a pattern set, and the governors would not have had any push to lock down in ridiculous ways unless it came from the higher ups. Scare tactics abounded including having Chrysler build ventilators, killing machines for Covid, a sham if I ever heard one. They only needed a few months to tip the country into bankruptcy and melt down for their NWO. Only months later did Trump start talking about opening up the country even though he knew full well that Covid wasn't killing hundreds of thousands or millions much earlier. Nor does a savvy businessman print money to save the economy and thereby insuring ultimate collapse. Switzerland and other countries early on said they'd have zero lock downs and they fared quite well. If some governments knew it'd be fine, Trump knew. But Trump used Fauci to give cover and take the heat. And Fauci is still spilling verbal sewage and not in jail. And even though most wouldn't see it, Trump has always been pro gαy. He's certainly pro vaccine. People need to get over hero worship and see past the fog of pretense coming out of the politics that deflected many from realizing what was really happening.
Trump didn't lock down. It was the governors. And when Trump tried to open things up the governors threatened to sue. So it is 100% on the governors.
What happened while Obama was in office?Exactly
Answer: Pretty much the same thing as is happening while Trump is in office, except that the country is in worse shape today with Trump in office than while Obama was in.
We lost our freedoms under Trump; the country is in chaos under Trump.
Wake up: Republicrats and Democans are the problem.
Voting for either is ignorant, and perpetuates (and worsens) the problem.
They are on the same team.
What happened while Obama was in office?I agree that both parties are a big part of the problem, but Trump is nominally a Republican. His own party hates him. How do you reconcile that with him being part of the conspiracy?
Answer: Pretty much the same thing as is happening while Trump is in office, except that the country is in worse shape today with Trump in office than while Obama was in.
We lost our freedoms under Trump; the country is in chaos under Trump.
Wake up: Republicrats and Democans are the problem.
Voting for either is ignorant, and perpetuates (and worsens) the problem.
They are on the same team.
I agree that both parties are a big part of the problem, but Trump is nominally a Republican. His own party hates him. How do you reconcile that with him being part of the conspiracy?
They pretend to hate him because they know that will help him win because nobody trusts the media or the political parties anymore. They think they are all pedophiles and devil worshipers. So by casting Trump as an outsider, he won.This is the only reasonable answer for all that has transpired.
Trump didn't lock down. It was the governors. And when Trump tried to open things up the governors threatened to sue. So it is 100% on the governors.
This is the only reasonable answer for all that has transpired.
Many of you are trying to apply catholic principles (voting) to an uncatholic situation (99% of those in govt). Abstain from voting if you want, but God gave us common sense to judge things on a practical level, if catholic principles don't/can't apply. As Alaric said, we're living in a psuedo-war, a preliminary war, a cultural war. Wartime changes your perspective from idealism (normal morality) to practical (doing the best with what you have). You choose the best candidate, ...or...you choose AGAINST the worst candidate.Of your list, Trump has only succeeded in #2.
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The wartime/common sense principles to judge candidates are:
1) Access to church
2) Access to weapons
3) Rule of Law and stopping anarchy in the streets
4) Protections of food from national shortages
5) Promotion of peace instead of war; bringing home troops
6) Protection of borders
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The lines are clear between who has supported the above and who hasn't. Don't let catholic principles get in the way of common sense. Wartime morality is different from peaceful morality.
Voting for either is ignorant, and perpetuates (and worsens) the problem.No, because not voting doesn’t change anything. You are rightly complaining about “the system” and how it’s corrupt. I agree. But you can’t avoid the system; we are way beyond that point.
Of your list, Trump has only succeeded in #2.That list applies to Trump/many (but not all) Republicans (ie Red State governors).
He could have overruled all the governors by executive order any time he chose.
Trump can’t affect all of those 6 in equal ways, because there’s a thing called “states rights” which still exist, and the idea that Trump can rule by executive order on anything is so retardedly wrong, I can’t believe I have to say it.
This is 1000% wrong. My governor is a liberal psycho. Aside from Trump declaring marshall law, there's nothing he can do to affect my state. Trump is not a monarch.Nope.
He could have cut off federal aid for highways or any number of other federal aid packages.
He chose not to.
Ahhh...but first you said he could just issue an 'executive order'. Now you're saying he has to use passive-aggressive tactics?No: First I named one method of compulsion, then I named another.
This is 1000% wrong. My governor is a liberal psycho. Aside from Trump declaring marshall law, there's nothing he can do to affect my state. Trump is not a monarch.What do you think would happen if one of the red state governors tried to segregate public schools? Federal troops would be on the ground in minutes and it would be stopped immediately. Why did the same thing not happen to "sanctuary cities?" Because the Republicans are just as bad as the democrats, they just have pretend to be decent.
Trump pretends to hate the swamp and the swamp pretends to hate Trump. You don't make it in Jєω York real estate to the point of being a billionaire without being a part of the swamp.For this to be true, Trump would have to be an excellent actor. He is a horrible actor. Watch clips of him acting and you will see how true that is.
This is 1000% wrong. My governor is a liberal psycho. Aside from Trump declaring marshall law, there's nothing he can do to affect my state. Trump is not a monarch.No, Trump is no monarch, but he never condemned the heavy handed actions of governors, but went along, often encouraging lock downs.
I don't see how it is "NOW" a sin to vote for Trump? We have known for a long time that he's pro-sodomite.Good points, Lad. So I take it that you have now decided to vote for Trump?
So this doesn't really change things.
There's still a possibility to argue from double effect. Someone might vote for Trump because, for instance, it's likely that Ginsberg will either retire or receive her eternal reward within the next term.
Even if an anti-sodomite President were elected, it's not as if anyone is going to outlaw sodomy anytime soon.
But I've been pushing back against double effect precisely on the grounds that if it's evil to vote for a a pro-sodomite candidate, then you can't do it even if the other guy is worse. I'm not sure whether it's OK to divide a candidate by his positions. I am voting for anti-abortion Trump but not pro-sodomite Trump.
This is something that the trained moral theologians really should deal with more; it's a neglected area of theology.
No, Trump is no monarch, but he never condemned the heavy handed actions of governors,
Nope.So the Republicans can join with the Democrats and do impeachment 2.0? Yeah, there are many thing I would have done differently had I been in power, but then again I probably wouldn’t have lasted a week.
He could have cut off federal aid for highways or any number of other federal aid packages.
He chose not to.
What do you think would happen if one of the red state governors tried to segregate public schools? Federal troops would be on the ground in minutes and it would be stopped immediately. Why did the same thing not happen to "sanctuary cities?"
And just below that SSPX blurb is this concerning piece:How do the Trumpers respond to this^^^^
"However, it can be permissible to tolerate the lesser of two evils for a proportionate reason [without necessity? -SJ], and such toleration can be for the common good, precisely because it is the lesser of two evils. Thus it is possible to vote or even campaign for a candidate whose platform contains evils with which we do not agree. Everything depends upon a hierarchy of the most important values and issues taking priority over lesser ones.
For a Catholic, there can be no doubt that the issues that take the highest priority must be the moral issues, and not personal or economic issues. The whole continuation of society as we know it depends upon this, and those who deny the most basic principles of the natural order are bringing about an unheard of perversion. Consequently, it is permissible and prudent to vote on the one single issue of proscribing abortion, or forbidding same-sex marriages, or putting an end to euthanasia, or freedom of the Catholic Church to run educational institutions. All of these issues are of the utmost importance. Consequently, it would be permissible and prudent to vote for a candidate who promotes an unjust war, on the basis of one or other of these issues. Consequently, it is likewise permissible to vote for a candidate who is known to be a Freemason, although Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ is an evil society condemned by the Church and opposed to the Catholic Church, if he maintains an important principle of the natural law such as the evil of abortion.
Lesser issues are also of moral importance, such as the justice or injustice of a particular war, or the paying of a just wage to employees, maintaining the right to private property by limiting government intervention, and so on. All other things being equal, one could vote on the basis of such issues. However, it would be wrong to vote for a candidate who has a correct position on one of these issues, but a perverse and wrong position on a more important issue.
Consequently, it would be manifestly immoral and sinful to vote for a candidate who pretends to be Catholic, but who in fact is pro-abortion, pro-gαy, or pro-euthanasia."
Segregation of schools is a federal law, so POTUS can enforce.No, it's not. An illegal alien is, ipso facto, a criminal and not a citizen of the U.S., hence, they're afforded no rights as Americans. By your logic, the Seat of Peter would have to rule whether or not a Muslim is a member of the Catholic Church and thus has salvation when he dies, when the Church has already infallibly defined that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church and one who dies a Muslim is damned forever.
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Sanctuary cities is a gray area, that has gone through the court system, because it involves Federal immigration law but also state's rights. Federal regulation has mostly prevailed but still not 100%.
The issue [.], church closings, [...] all falls under state law, depending on the powers each state has given to its governor and its health officials during a 'health emergency' (usually a 30-45 day declaration by the governor, during which he has very wide powers).You're wrong. It's a 1st Amendment issue. Trump allowed governors to violate our 1st Amendment rights.
https://youtu.be/KLcfpU2cubo (https://youtu.be/KLcfpU2cubo)This footage is way back in 92 and very vague at best what the dynamic was at the party.
This is already beginning in Canada where christians have been fined and jailed for simply quoting Sacred Scripture. That is what you can expect from Biden/hαɾɾιs. And you can also expect that they will attempt (and likely succeed) in closing our churches. They will not tolerate the existence of any institution which questions the party line. Think peak Cancel Culture except instead of twitter storms they will be sending SWAT teams on Sunday mornings to arrest the priests and terrorize the faithful.I still have family in the City (NY), which is turning into a third world Sh*thole overnight and a terrorist state.
I still have family in the City (NY), which is turning into a third world Sh*thole overnight and a terrorist state.Were these checkpoints to get into the city, or to get out of it? And what did the guards want at the checkpoints? Will your family be able to get back into NYC? This is very disturbing. A few more details would be very interesting ... :popcorn:
I'm currently in upstate. My family had to go through checkpoints to get here. CHECKPOINTS!
We might as well be in East Germany ffs!
I'm sorry, but people better wake the hell up.And if you're not in NY and think Trump's the "bad guy", you better do more research. We are living in an authoritarian, communist bloc right now. I dare you to believe it.
This footage is way back in 92 and very vague at best what the dynamic was at the party.“I’ve known Jeff for fifteen years. Terrific guy. He’s a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side.” - Donald Trump, 2002
Do you really believe that Trump knew what Epstein was in 92? At some random gathering and had a few laughs? Really?
Where were you in 92? what if they had a camera on you Bs'ing with a guy whom you had no idea he was a big as scuмbag as we found out DECADES later and they wanted to pull that footage on you like you and Jєω-stein were old buddies having a few laughs? ( about raping adolescents I would assume as well)
That NBC film footage from the early 90's PROVES nothing.
I agree, Trump is letting us down. It seems to me, all or most of our presidents have been Masons/impious Jєω followers. It also seems to me that Trump started out some what ok and then he is now showing us his other side or true colors.Oh man, if you think Trump is bad, just wait for Biden to get in there. :facepalm:
Republicans can say the they are, but they are sitting on the fence to lean either way it fits them.
This does not surprise me.
No, it's not. An illegal alien is, ipso facto, a criminal and not a citizen of the U.S., hence, they're afforded no rights as Americans.
You're wrong. It's a 1st Amendment issue. Trump allowed governors to violate our 1st Amendment rights.
Ahem, it was Trump who allowed the churches to be closed and facilitates globalism.No, it was the fαɢɢօt governor here in USSNY. Trump went along at the time because of all the hysteria and no one was sure exactly what the hell was going on with COVERT-19, so there was some apprehension at federal and state levels.
Republicrats have selective perception.
Trump is president today, and has America in chaos and lockdown.
The choice is basically similar to WW2: Churchill/Roosevelt's socialism or Stalin's death camps. You guys can complain all you want about Trump, but if you elect Biden (due to your inaction/non-voting), then you'll die due to WW3, starvation, or in a FEMA camp. That's the choice we face. Accept it or not.Absolutely. these guys think they're safe because they live in rural America and have a few weapons with limited rounds of ammo and stockpiles of food for a few months or even years. Guess what , it's not going to matter.
How do the Trumpers respond to this^^^^I’m not a “Trumper”, but a thinking Catholic intellectual realist. The SSPX’s position on this and a buck will give you a cup of coffee at McDonald’s.
Giuliani and Trump, what a pair they make!It's a damn roast and a joke
https://youtu.be/4IrE6FMpai8 (https://youtu.be/4IrE6FMpai8)
It's a damn roast and a jokeShows his character. Anyway, is this recent enough for you?
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Again, totally taken out of context.
Although, I don't ever agree with the cross dressing crap, even in jest.
But you're really reaching here. You gotta do better than decades old garbage fun flicks.
I’m not a “Trumper”, but a thinking Catholic intellectual realist. The SSPX’s position on this and a buck will give you a cup of coffee at McDonald’s.Good ol Double Effect one would assume. ::)
BTW: How is it that a fellow who writes a book condemning the SSPX for becoming modernist suddenly uses their arguments to defend his position? :facepalm:
Shows his character. Anyway, is this recent enough for you?Context? I don't even know the time frame or when this video was done.
https://youtu.be/JLXFgtbl-80 (https://youtu.be/JLXFgtbl-80)
Context? I don't even know the time frame or when this video was done.New Guy? What are you twelve years old? Get help for your cognitive dissonance.
And besides, we have this little thing in America called Due Process......you know, laws and courts and that kind of thing before we send people to the gallows.
What do you expect the POTUS to say on this before she's had her day in court? Off with there head?
Flush out your head gear new guy.
What are you talking about? He's condemned them about 1,000x. You'll only hear about it in the alt media.Trump condemned no lock downs in the first two months.
Perhaps we should choose martyrdom instead of being complicit in sin. That's hard, though. At the rate the world is going I think pretty soon it would be better to be in a FEMA camp than to live among all the unrepentant murderers and blasphemers and onanists and sodomites. I am almost looking forward to making my rosary out of spare string and stale bread and trying to convert the evangelical cellmates to Catholicism in the down-time between hard labor and torture. I don't know if I'm being serious.This really is the point. We must choose martyrdom because a teeny tiny bit of incense is death.
Were these checkpoints to get into the city, or to get out of it? And what did the guards want at the checkpoints? Will your family be able to get back into NYC? This is very disturbing. A few more details would be very interesting ... :popcorn:I believe coming in. there were "random" checks. But if you had out of state plates, pull over and mandated quarantine.
Trump condemned no lock downs in the first two months.Ahh, now you’re backtracking and complaining about *only* the first 2 months, when no one knew what was going on or how deadly the virus was. Well, they had lockdowns in 1918 too until the flu died down. The problem is not the lockdown but the duration of it. It didn’t work so it should be stopped, as Trump has been saying.
No matter what anyone says, you people will complain about any politician because no one is perfect. I think you just like to complain.
Well, they had lockdowns in 1918 too until the flu died down. The problem is not the lockdown but the duration of it..
Do you think Donald Trump is in the state of sanctifying grace?
However, this past year ALL of these things were mandated inmost statesBLUE STATES of this country.
Fixed it. Most of the limitations you complain about happened in blue states. Republican states were not very shut down, and if they were, not for long..
It doesn't freaking matter!! We don't live in a catholic country; we don't have catholic laws; we don't have catholic politicians! WAKE UP TO THIS REALITY. Stop measuring politicians by the catholic measuring stick and BE THANKFUL for those politicians who AREN'T COMMUNIST and who DON'T WANT TO KILL YOU. Because most every other country (besides Russia, Hungary and Poland) would LOVE to have Trump. They have communism and hate it.I am awake. Souls are going to hell like snowflakes. Trump is not making the country God-fearing and holy. What percentage of the American public do you think is Catholic and isn't a sɛҳuąƖ pervert? What is the point in torturing us in this world if the Jєωs know we will be tortured forever in hell because the world is so evil that one has to distance themselves completely from it to stay out of mortal sin? The country is more wicked today than it was three and a half years ago when he took office. The question I have is "what percentage of the public will be saved when they die." If the answer is "of adults above the age of reason, less than 1 percent" then I don't see any reason in voting for that man. He is the king of Sodomy and Usury, but you better vote for him or else Biden will throw us all in FEMA camps.
So do you have any evidence that people were placed under house arrest during the Spanish Flu, or that businesses and workshops were forced to close? Lockdowns as they existed earlier this year (and still exist in some parts of this country) did not, as far as I know, take place during the Spanish Flu.
Matto, so will things be BETTER for religion and your soul, when Biden declares martial law and closes all churches? If you think it's bad now, how much worse will it get? Don't you see the alternative is infinitely worse?Yes, the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church. There is a good chance that more souls will be saved under Biden's persecution than under Trump 2.0. Will the millions of Q anon patriots and all of them masturbate or use birth control be saved?
All the bad things you talk about did not happen in every state, nor to the same degree. The Blue States used the Spanish Flu precedent and put lockdowns on steroids. Red States did not. This has nothing to do with Trump. The feds "advised" social distancing, work from home, etc, but it was the STATES WHO LOCKED THINGS DOWN.I think we're talking about different things here. You said that there were lockdowns during the Spanish Flu. I said there were not, or at least I have never seen evidence there were. Now I'm not clear if you are maintaining your original claim or are backing off of it, and you are talking about state politics and President Trump and other issues I did not bring up when I disputed your claim about the Spanish Flu. So, were there lockdowns during the Spanish Flu or not?
I am awake. Souls are going to hell like snowflakes. Trump is not making the country God-fearing and holy. What percentage of the American public do you think is Catholic and isn't a sɛҳuąƖ pervert? What is the point in torturing us in this world if the Jєωs know we will be tortured forever in hell because the world is so evil that one has to distance themselves completely from it to stay out of mortal sin? The country is more wicked today than it was three and a half years ago when he took office. The question I have is "what percentage of the public will be saved when they die." If the answer is "of adults above the age of reason, less than 1 percent" then I don't see any reason in voting for that man. He is the king of Sodomy and Usury, but you better vote for him or else Biden will throw us all in FEMA camps.You said: "He (Trump) is the king of Sodomy and Usury, but you better vote for him or else Biden will throw us all in FEMA camps."
I won't say don't vote for him but he is merely slow poison instead of a guillotine.
It doesn't freaking matter!! We don't live in a catholic country; we don't have catholic laws; we don't have catholic politicians! WAKE UP TO THIS REALITY. Stop measuring politicians by the catholic measuring stick and BE THANKFUL for those politicians who AREN'T COMMUNIST and who DON'T WANT TO KILL YOU. Because most every other country (besides Russia, Hungary and Poland) would LOVE to have Trump. They have communism and hate it.
I am awake. Souls are going to hell like snowflakes. Trump is not making the country God-fearing and holy. What percentage of the American public do you think is Catholic and isn't a sɛҳuąƖ pervert? What is the point in torturing us in this world if the Jєωs know we will be tortured forever in hell because the world is so evil that one has to distance themselves completely from it to stay out of mortal sin? The country is more wicked today than it was three and a half years ago when he took office. The question I have is "what percentage of the public will be saved when they die." If the answer is "of adults above the age of reason, less than 1 percent" then I don't see any reason in voting for that man. He is the king of Sodomy and Usury, but you better vote for him or else Biden will throw us all in FEMA camps.
I won't say don't vote for him but he is merely slow poison instead of a guillotine.
All I've seen is that theaters, churches, bars, dance halls, and other places of public gathering were closed during Spanish Flu.Yeti, your original comment above is the definition of a “lockdown”. Some blue states went much further and had “house arrests” but many states did not.
There is a good chance that more souls will be saved under Biden's persecution than under Trump 2.0.A political persecution isn’t martyrdom. So Biden won’t send people to heaven, just death in fema camps. And the many who are immoral will curse God as they die.
A political persecution isn’t martyrdom. So Biden won’t send people to heaven, just death in fema camps. And the many who are immoral will curse God as they die.
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Did morality increase during Obama’s presidency? Nope. So your hopes are unfounded.
For those who die in FEMA camps for morality and the Catholic faith, it would be a glorious martyrdom..
New Guy? What are you twelve years old? Get help for your cognitive dissonance.Yea, New Guy. You don't have even 80 posts yet, I have over 2000. You haven't been here 6 moths, I've been here 8 yrs.
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No, Pax is saying that nobody will be in a FEMA camp out of hatred for morality and the Faith. They will be there for refusing a vaccine or some other political reason.
However, this past year ALL of these things were mandated in most states of this country. Indeed, for several months, most of the human race was living under substantially the same rules as what I provided, something without precedent in 6,000 years of human history, and that no one could ever imagine was even possible.Now this is something everyone should be tracking on. This is not about just Trump "going along" and being part of the commie lockdowns. This is a global phenomenon, this is instigated and perpetuated by forces far bigger than DT.
A political persecution isn’t martyrdom. So Biden won’t send people to heaven, just death in fema camps. And the many who are immoral will curse God as they die.Yes, and let's not forget with the ascent of Obama, that "Traditional Catholicism" itself moved dramatically to the left and became more accepting of the poz.
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Did morality increase during Obama’s presidency? Nope. So your hopes are unfounded.
One thing that gives me hope is that more young people are learning about the Latin Mass since it is more readily available and learning about the true faith, first through the indult and then the SSPX or the sede groups. Say what you want about the SSPX selling out, they have a large aposotlate and the resistance is unavailable to most people so it is not an option for most people.
The Neo-SSPX et al, as it has been shown time & time again is not opposed to globohomo ʝʊdɛօ-managerialism. In fact, they are on the same side for both material and spiritual reasons. If there should ever be a unite the clans, it should be the Sedes and The Resistance against Trad inc.The only way to restore the Church is to convert the Neo-SSPX and the Novus Ordo back to tradition. Unless the sedes and the resistance get together and elect a Pope, which they refuse to do because they either claim they have no authority (which makes one ask who does have the authority or will the Church be Pope-less forever?) or think that if they elected a Pope everyone would think they are crazy. But who would follow a sede Pope?
For those who die in FEMA camps for morality and the Catholic faith, it would be a glorious martyrdom.There’s not a war against Catholicism, there’s a war against the natural law and patriotism. No martyrdom in the latter situation. Just like the Poles who were put on death trains weren’t killed by Russians because they were Catholic.
1,000,000 legal reported abortions.Even more if you include the MAP.
Many more thru RU486, contraception, and unreported abortions.
At the end of the day, we are wasting our time discussing this.Agreed. Frankly, at the end of the day we are screwed either way. If Trump wins then the country will be set on fire by anarchists, Communists, and liberals. If he doesn't win then we will have a social-democrat ruling over us. No matter who wins ((they)) also may do everything they can to enforce vaccines on the masses. So, in the end, we better get ready and buckle up for hard times.
Apart from divine intervention, that person that the Jєωs who run this country want to be president WILL be president ... as our votes mean nothing. They laugh at us as people watch the numbers come in on election night.
Alaric, you act as if those videos were of an 18 year old frat boy. Trump was a man in his 40’s/50’s when those videos were taken. You also insinuated that Trump did not know what Epstein was up to when you wrote:
Yea, New Guy. You don't have even 80 posts yet, I have over 2000. You haven't been here 6 moths, I've been here 8 yrs.
I'd say that pretty much makes you a "new guy". To me at least. It's nothing a 12 yr old can't figure out.
No CD here either. I'm just asking for a little more substance than old pics of party boy Donald in his heyday.
Him hobnobbing with a bunch of elitists and joos is nothing new around these parts. We have these little papers called tabloids in NY, we know all about the billionaire playboy from the 90's.
Trump also failed communities across the country by letting BLM plunder, murder and burn the cities. He should've sent in the Guard at day one. He's the Commander-in-Chief whose responsibility is to protect the country from enemies foreign and DOMESTIC.
While President Trump has been very active and solicitous in seeking to protect religious freedom, he is not Catholic. With regards to an issue such as gαy marriage, he cannot be said to hold the Catholic view, as he seems not as concerned about the normalization of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ relations, but, truth be told, if we are realists, we must acknowledge that that ship has sailed for the foreseeable future. As you will see in the list of accomplishments in the appendix, the author of that list includes the naming of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ ambassadors and working to exercise leverage on foreign nations to get them to decriminalize ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ acts.
That acknowledged, it is the Catholic position that any sɛҳuąƖ activity outside of marriage between a man and a woman is sinful; it is not the Church’s position that consenting sɛҳuąƖ acts, whether heterosɛҳuąƖ or ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ in nature, should be criminalized. But it is true that Trump, at least politically, is not “with” the Church on same-sex marriage and seems to consider it settled law, but he is much better than anyone the Democrats will put forward and just as good as the best Republican in terms of what can actually be accomplished. In fact, he is probably better, for he has demonstrated the courage and political ability to carve out a solid space for religious freedom and to nominate the types of judges who may look at some of the judicial activism by which much past mischief was done with a jaundiced eye.
Under the previous administration, one would have to be blind not to have noticed a creeping totalitarianism in opposition to traditional Christian values, so much so that it increasingly seemed we were allowed to let those beliefs and values inform the way in which we live our lives, organize our parochial schools, and conduct our charitable activities only to the extent that they, “the tolerance police,” saw fit. Under Trump, we have a fighting chance to be allowed to raise our children and carry out our charitable works as we see fit. If you don’t believe us, this may be a good time to read or re-read Father Pavone’s outstanding foreword. That tells the tale from a first-person perspective.
Even less-active and non-practicing Catholics of our acquaintance seem to acknowledge that the Left continues to push and push the most radical positions; both authors know many Catholic Democrats and Independents who are fans of Donald Trump as a result of the radicalism of the Democrats.
Still, we Catholics can appeal to President Trump to respect those traditional societies that have not yet succuмbed to the LGBTQ propaganda and pressure campaign for same-sex marriage against the will of the people, for remember, that momentous social change was effected judicially not legislatively in most, if not all, places. The LGBTQ pressure movement is as much a part of globalism as anything else. There is a difference between support for decriminalization and pressure to overturn cultural norms of traditional marriage against the will of the people.
• Trump appointed 5 openly gαy ambassadors.
• Trump ordered his openly gαy ambassador to Germany, Ric Grenell, to lead a global initiative to decriminalize ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity across the globe.
What do you think would happen if one of the red state governors tried to segregate public schools? Federal troops would be on the ground in minutes and it would be stopped immediately. Why did the same thing not happen to "sanctuary cities?" Because the Republicans are just as bad as the democrats, they just have pretend to be decent.Good point Matto, reminds of me how G.K Chesterton once put it:
Alaric, you act as if those videos were of an 18 year old frat boy. Trump was a man in his 40’s/50’s when those videos were taken. You also insinuated that Trump did not know what Epstein was up to when you wrote:Yes I'm well aware of Trump's semiti-philia, again this is no big secret around here, we all know about the Donald and the "Jєωs". As a matter of fact, you really are the new guy, because I've been blasting about trump and his Jєω friends and family for quite some time here if you go back in my posts. I know he does the bidding of the zionists, I know he he kisses Bibi and Israel's ass and does their bidding. Nothing new here. EVERY president has for the last 70+ years and it's not going to stop, I don't care who is in the oval office.
”Do you really believe that Trump knew what Epstein was in 92? At some random gathering and had a few laughs? Really? “
to which I responded with Trumps own words:
“‘I’ve known Jeff for fifteen years. Terrific guy. He’s a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side.’ - Donald Trump, 2002”
I won’t even get into the degenerate statements Trump made about his own daughter, Ivanka. I really do hope you overcome your cognitive dissonance when it comes to Donald Trump.
https://youtu.be/rtLuof3TviY (https://youtu.be/rtLuof3TviY)
Sincerely,
The New Guy
Don't be so quick to pat yourself on the back. If those of us who refrain from voting for Trump are guilty of Biden's subsequent presidency and disastrous policies, how are those that do vote for Trump not responsible for his LGBT or pro-false-Israel policies? You can't guilt us about Biden while disavowing Trump while still voting for him.We all answer to God for our choices.
Don't be so quick to pat yourself on the back. If those of us who refrain from voting for Trump are guilty of Biden's subsequent presidency and disastrous policies, how are those that do vote for Trump not responsible for his LGBT or pro-false-Israel policies? You can't guilt us about Biden while disavowing Trump while still voting for him.I'm not patting myself on the back, go back and read my posts. I'm holding my nose voting for Trump.
I'm not patting myself on the back, go back and read my posts. I'm holding my nose voting for Trump.
But that's where it's at for us ( rational thinking Americans) and patriots. This is a war. YOU ARE IN A WAR.
It's that simple. You think Biden/hαɾɾιs and the demo-commies aren't for LGBT and Israel? Wake the hell up!
They're for all of that AND MORE! As a matter of fact, many more MORE babies will be butchered under Biden ( yes, many, MOSTLY non-Jєωιѕн babies), fαɢɢօts and sex-freaks will even more rights under them ( If that's even possible), your religious "freedoms" will go under even more suppression and , if you're WHITE, look out. they will basically be able to come to your house, beat you (Or kill you), rape your women and take possession of everything you own and toss your ass out in the street. You think this can't happen? It's already happened! By the SAME PEOPLE! ( South Africa, Soviet Russia, China, etc.)
These dems like Biden/hαɾɾιs hate, Hate, HATE you for your very existence. Biden (And clinton) have already stated on record that THEY CAN'T WAIT UNTIL WHITES ARE A MINORITY IN AMERICA! And that was years ago! Do you think they've changed their minds now? Take a look around, the commie-dems are DOING EVERYTHING to destroy the social/economic structure of the country, WHILE they unleash BLM/Antifa " protestors" on us like savage animals while they suppress any resistance from "Trump supporters" or "Right Wing Radicals" and CENSOR anyone on social media opposing this agenda. INCLUDING THE PRESIDENT!.
People like you keep honing in on da Jєωs, da Jєωs, da Jєωs.......Well that's true to some extent.
But take a GOOD LUCK AROUND and WHO is killing us more than any anti-Christ Jєω? I'll name a few;
Peℓσѕι- (Catholic) freaking anti-american,anti-white,anti-religion,anti-family anti-everything normal PSYCHO! Not a Jєω!
Biden- (Catholic) what else can I say that hasn't already been said? the guy is in his dotage , mumbling and stumbling his way through all of this and still they push him like he's presidential matieral. when they damn well know he's not. they guy and excuse me for using this phrase, is nothing more than a mental retard at this stage. Perfect for them to use to take us down.
Cuomo- (Catholic!) you have got to be kidding me, the most corrupt, lying , sanctimonious, narcissistic governor in the country AND THAT'S SAYING A LOT. this POS literally has the most recorded deaths from Corona-virus in the world, EVEN with all his nαzι-style Lockdowns AND STILL THEY PARADE HIM OUT THESE AS THE HERO AND TEMPLATE AROUND THE COUNTRY ON HOW TO "DEAL WITH THE VIRUS". Also. he actually celebrated statewide last year about NY having the most progressive ABORTION LAWS IN THE COUNTRY. He, actually lit up the empire state bldg and HAD A PARTY CELEBRATING THE FACT THAT, YOU CAN BUTCHER BABIES AT WILL BEFORE THEIR BORN HERE IN NY AND IN SOME CASES , AFTER! And you know who actually did the most protesting against all this? Freaking Orthodox Jєωs! Not Catholics! And btw, cuomo, NOT A Jєω.
Deblasio- (Jackass) I don't know or care what "religion" this Ahole says he is. He is PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE for the mass destruction by "protestors" all over the city, personally responsible for murders skyrocketing, responsible for detroying what is left of the economy in NYC and soon for the very destruction of the City itself. All the while he is PERSONALLY out painting BLM on the streets of NYC. right out in front of Trump's bldg btw. This guy is literally, a MODERN DAY NERO! He will fiddle as NYC burns AND HE LIT the FIRE. Btw, not a Jєω.
The "pope"- ( Catholic?) What else can I say. If there ever a bigger commie, globalist, pro-fag enabler and attacker of the Church AND CHRISTIANITY in the world today, please let me know. you know who the biggest enemy of the Church ( and America) is today? The "vicar of Christ". Lol! ( but not really funny) Btw, NOT A Jєω. (Not that we know of).
Bill Gates- (Prot) The absolute worse enemy of mankind. A demon in human form. He has the whole world possessed under his spell right now and will soon be king of kings with his "vaccine" magic and implant his "chip" into every living being on the planet. He wants the death of billions to make the world "liveable" and is actually trying to implement this plan right before our very eyes in killing and enslaving the "survivors" who make it through the death carnage to serve him. He does all this with a smile on his face while trying to come off as a harmless neighbor like mr rogers. The guy is pure evil. not a Jєω.
I could go on and on. But for right now, Donald Trump is low on my list. Even if he has a lot of Jєωιѕн friends, Jєωs in his family and is a good shabbos goy. We can deal with that later. right now, that group above is TRYING TO KILL US.
And that's where the war is now.....US or THEM!
I don't see how it is "NOW" a sin to vote for Trump? We have known for a long time that he's pro-sodomite.I haven't read the entire thread yet, but I kind of alluded to this earlier. "What is a vote?" Has the Church ever ruled on this? Whether a vote is a real endorsement "I want this guy to be President" or just a strategic calculation (ie. I realistically have two options, I'm gonna side with this guy over that guy.)
So this doesn't really change things.
There's still a possibility to argue from double effect. Someone might vote for Trump because, for instance, it's likely that Ginsberg will either retire or receive her eternal reward within the next term.
Even if an anti-sodomite President were elected, it's not as if anyone is going to outlaw sodomy anytime soon.
But I've been pushing back against double effect precisely on the grounds that if it's evil to vote for a a pro-sodomite candidate, then you can't do it even if the other guy is worse. I'm not sure whether it's OK to divide a candidate by his positions. I am voting for anti-abortion Trump but not pro-sodomite Trump.
This is something that the trained moral theologians really should deal with more; it's a neglected area of theology.
Funny how some people are harder on the POTUS than the chief heretic in Rome for essentially the same thing. In no way do I expect Trump to be any sort of moral compass, but by it’s very essence the papacy IS the guide for all men to follow when dealing with faith and morals. Following the pope’s teachings on faith and morals, even if only through obedience, one cannot be in any danger of sinning. Bergoglio’s teachings, actions, and omissions are riddled with immoral sinful guidance.Not getting into is sede the right position or not, but this analogy is false. R and Rs who say its sinful to *vote* for Trump would also presumably say it would be sinful to *vote* for Francis, say, if they were a cardinal or whatnot. And I haven't seen any of them deny Trump's authority as POTUS.
https://novusordowatch.org/2020/08/francis-praises-nun-for-homes-for-transgenders/ (https://novusordowatch.org/2020/08/francis-praises-nun-for-homes-for-transgenders/)
It’s odd how when the going gets rough some guys lose their minds and do counterproductive things. Like the war movie cliche of the tough guy soldier who in the midst of a bloody battle jumps up out of his foxhole and charges the enemy line only to be mercilessly cut down. Handing Biden (let’s be honest, hαɾɾιs) the presidency either by not voting or by writing in someone who has no chance of winning is like fumbling the ball at the goal line. Be calm and patient. Let God decide when He will tear everything down. Don’t try to bring it about prematurely. I still say that prayer and penance is the only way you are going to convert our country. Fasting one day a week isn’t that hard. The full Litany of the Saints is only 10 minutes per day. Not a lot to ask. And if nothing else it will be guaranteed to produce good fruits in your soul. But maybe it will also bring about the conversion of our country. Faith can literally move mountains.CM has it right.
Be calm and patient. Let God decide when He will tear everything down. Don’t try to bring it about prematurely.
Agree! A vote for Trump is just a vote for more time. A vote for socialism vs communism. A vote for a slow eroding vs a massive flood.AMEN !!!
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No one can say they are ready to be shipped off to a FEMA camp, because that takes a special grace to survive the emotional, physical and psychological temptations that you'll face there. I'll take more time to pray, prep and petition God for a miracle.
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If some of you are ready to die in a fiery "blaze of glory" then why don't you move to the Middle East and fight the muslims. We don't need your defeatist and negative attitudes here.
I agree with Alaric's post:Lukewarm never solved anything.....but if he looses at least you'll be able to say you voted for him.
https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/mortal-sin-now-to-vote-trump/msg712175/#msg712175 (https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/mortal-sin-now-to-vote-trump/msg712175/#msg712175)
If you haven't read it, please do so.
I'm concerned about Trump bragging about being the best LGBT president ever, and I'm concerned that Pence is throwing around communist terms like "conspiracy theory", and disavowing Q (which was the one thing suggesting Trump et al. are DIFFERENT than all the previous (R) presidents, who were every bit as bad as the Democrats they ran against).
How was Obama or Clinton worse than Bush? Every middle east war happened under Republicans. The War on Terror, the ongoing psy-op against the American people, forcing old ladies to take off their shoes at the airport because they might be a "shoe bomber" -- even the 9/11 fαℓѕє fℓαg itself, which murdered thousands of Americans -- happened under an (R) president. You're telling me I should vote for such a man (George W Bush) over his rival? No thanks!
George Bush was a member of Skull & Bones, a satanic cult. He participated in the Bohemian Grove, was a 33rd degree Mason, and did only-God-knows-what to achieve that rank. The lowest ranks of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ are all that most people are familiar with. But the higher ranks involve much more evil: satanism, murder, and God-knows-what-else. If George Bush were running today, and I was old enough to vote, I would seriously stay home. He didn't even do anything good in terms of pro-life, appointing judges, etc. Back then the 2-party system was a complete scam.
As for the situation today, I still see some good in Trump's 1st term -- he's making life more possible for Americans (economically), he seems to be somewhat against globalization, rolling back evil globalist treaties (Paris Accord), he is against the Climate Change scam, and is giving more glory and support to the pro-life movement (he completely falls down in the category of LGBT, but I digress).
I will be holding my nose and voting for Trump to prevent worse evils, and to vote "for" the few good things he is likely to do, compared with his rival.
But I have lost my enthusiasm for Trump; I won't be wearing any promotional materials, posting any signs, or promoting his candidacy online in any way -- except for pointing out things like you see in this post. But I won't be wasting any more time defending Trump to non-Catholics. Whatever happens, happens. If Trump wins, "yay." But I'm not going to get all hopeful and excited like I was when I thought he was an actual good guy.
https://twitter.com/TheCptBlackPill/status/1297214100477480961 (https://twitter.com/TheCptBlackPill/status/1297214100477480961)
I hope the link works. I don't know anything about the person who made this thread I just saw it linked by someone I follow. He seems to be an alt-right kind of guy. Click to read the whole thread.
The entire Right is now censored by Big Tech as we saw earlier this month when Google delisted virtually every rightwing site in existence. Once again, nothing has been been done about the problem
So, there is that, which is a relatively new problem which wasn't urgent until Trump was elected in 2016. Trump and the GOP let their own supporters be destroyed on the internet one by one
As for Big Tech, they were rewarded for their behavior with the big corporate tax cut by Trump and the GOP. Their stocks went up. They made a killing. As Trump himself said, MAGA stands for Microsoft, Amazon, Google and Apple
The financial side of deplatforming is that every payment processor in existence and even banks and credit card companies have begun to engage in political censorship. If you have the wrong politics, forget about having a PayPal account
So, the effective result of electing Trump and the GOP is that their supporters were silenced in the public square (The internet) and financially punished as well (by banks, credit card companies, payment processors.) Nothing was done about these new means of coercion
...
This brings us to the subject of actual physical leftwing violence. BLM rioted and burned down multiple cities in the 2016 election and during the late Obama presidency. Trump vowed to restore "law and order." This was one of the primary reasons he was elected
The violence began with Antifa attacking Trump rallies in the 2016 campaign. This went on for months before he won the election. It continued at the inauguration. Those of us who were there saw it
By the time of Charlottesville, the now familiar police stand downs had begun in Berkeley and Portland, but this was a new development which we didn't fully appreciate at the time. Police in Democrat cities started allowing Antifa and BLM to engage in violence
Now, obviously, there is nothing we can do about this. If Democratic cities hair decide to stop enforcing the law or to prosecute only people on the Right, that is above our pay grade. Only the federal government can step in to end these leftwing sundown towns
...
In 2020, Antifa and BLM just lay siege to the White House, establish sovereign autonomous zones in cities, burn down Washington, DC, burn down Portland for three months, attack federal courthouses with impunity and even the police are abolished to appease the mob
Be calm and patient. Let God decide when He will tear everything down. Don’t try to bring it about prematurely.
President Trump used some sort of wartime emergency power as president to open the meat plants back up and stave off mass starvation in this country.
Trump didn't use his executive orders to keep all churches open in defiance to governors violating the 1st Amendment.Vote!!!
Vote!!!He’s taken out American citizenship.
Fr. Kevin Robinson for President!
Think of it! Mary for ‘First Lady,’
Oh, wait! He wasn’t born here.
That was no problem for Obama or hαɾɾιs, Biden’s choice.
He’s young enough to be unlikely to drop dead in office.
Ideas for a running mate, anyone?
He’s taken out American citizenship.Fr. Robinson is a naturalized American citizen. That disqualifies him from being President, but as I noted, Obama didn’t let that stand in his way!
Running mate - Sean Johnson has aspirations, I believe ;)
Or Matto...:popcorn:
Fr. Robinson is a naturalized American citizen. That disqualifies him from being President....Oh! Is that so? I did not know that.
OK then don't vote for Trump, and place all of your faith in God to tear down the evil. Don't try to delay it by trusting in man.And hand the presidency to Biden? Do you think demonrats are going to stay out of the vote? They are energized. They can’t wait to get rid of Trump. And as proven by Project Veritas they will cheat too. The least you should be doing is go out and vote against militant institutionalized atheism. And a write-in is basically a throwaway vote. In my district those get counted as “other” and all of them combined don’t add up to 1%. So that is just wasting everyone’s time.
And hand the presidency to Biden?
Well, we're not handing anything to anyone. Come November, the Jєωs who runs this country will hand the Presidency to who they want.It looks like the demonrats have already got you right where they want you. You don’t think these all-powerful Jєωs can’t use psyops to demoralize the opposition? They already got you.
It looks like the demonrats have already got you right where they want you. You don’t think these all-powerful Jєωs can’t use psyops to demoralize the opposition? They already got you.
If nothing else, at least vote for law and order. Trump is at least trying to enforce the laws while the demonrats celebrate chaos.
This is disputed, whether you can vote for a pro-sodomite candidate just because he's otherwise for law and order. In other words, you're simply glossing over the broader theological question of whether and under what conditions it's permissible to vote for a defective candidate, whether you can separate the concerns within a single candidate.
Not voting is not neutral. Someone is going to get elected no matter what you do. So your actions will have some small influence on the outcome whether you like it or not. There is no way to stay out of it. Your citizenship makes you responsible. So the only thing to do is to choose the best possible outcome. The only reasonable thing for a Catholic to do is to vote for the candidate who is more compatible with Catholic principles. But whoever you vote for should have at least some small chance of winning. Even a Libertarian candidate who will probably only get low single digit percentage of votes is ok in my opinion. But write-ins are not viable at all. Don’t waste everyone’s time with that garbage.
I will vote for Trump only because he has shown that unborn baby-killing may possibly be restricted ( by executive order) under his presidency, but all in all, it probably won't as the elites have already built-in protections for baby-killing laws.
If you apply "lesser evil" reasoning to the following scenario:
Candidate 1:
pro-abortion, pro-sodomite, against prayer in schools, likely to wage unjust wars for Israel, for law and order
Candidate 2:
pro-abortion, pro-sodomite, against prayer in schools, likely to wage unjust wars for Israel, against law and order
then you could bring yourself to vote for Candidate #1, because he's slightly less worse. It becomes a mere mathematical formula.
But is it permitted in the abstract to vote for Candidate #1 ... being pro-abortion and pro-sodomite?
This is the kind of reasoning that needs to be flushed out by trained theologians and simply never has been.
1. Trump is the most anti-abortion president we've had since Roe v Wade. Come on.
You're oversimplying matters. What if I live in a Blue State where Trump has no chance? In that case a vote for Trump will not have ANY influence on the outcome?
You're assuming that the vote count is legit.
Why is it OK to vote for a single-digit Libertarian but not OK to write someone in? That makes zero sense.
You're just emoting here and not applying logical to any of your statements.
So yes, he spoke at the march for life, but he has signed off over a billion dollars to planned parenthood, more money per year than Obama.
Almost everyone here is applying Utilitarian reasoning, which is not a Catholic moral system.
If it's wrong to vote for a pro-sodomite candidate, then it's wrong to vote for a pro-sodomite candidate, regardless of whatever good he might otherwise do.
Almost everyone here is applying Utilitarian reasoning, which is not a Catholic moral system.Read the sspx article on voting posted by Sean early in this thread. It isn’t obligatory to vote if both candidates are equally bad. But that’s a judgment call. Pius XII said that decision is on our conscience. I think it is clear that Trump is a better candidate and significantly better than the demonrats candidate. If you think the difference between Trump and Biden/hαɾɾιs is insignificant then you can refrain from voting. They say you are obligated to vote only if there is a Catholic candidate. But I don’t think that’s right. Suppose Trump is running against Joe Stalin. Stalin is campaigning on the promise that he will put 30 million rural conservatives to death if elected. But Trump is pro fag like 99.9% of all political candidates nowadays. So it’s ok for you not to vote? I’m calling that BS. We are responsible for the outcome of this election whether we like it or not. We have to do the best we can under the circuмstances.
If it's wrong to vote for a pro-sodomite candidate, then it's wrong to vote for a pro-sodomite candidate, regardless of whatever good he might otherwise do.
That's how everything slides to the left, both in society and in the Church. Hey, look, this one bishop believes in the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. Bring up his cause for canonization now!
Seriously, does anyone think a senile Biden is going to be running the country? hαɾɾιs is basically the whole ticket. And she is all in on BLM Marxism. They’ll be arresting us for being white.
First Pence blasts Q as a "conspiracy theory" (he actually used that term! educated Catholics will understand the grave and deep significance of using that term*)Q is run by the CIA as controlled opposition.
God is trying to tell me something. I guess I have another 20 min. of free time this November 3rd.
*According to Zero Hedge (https://www.bing.com/search?q=Zero+Hedge&filters=sid%3a3d8be68c-436f-3d7d-ac90-88ac76c5fd2b&form=ENTLNK), the term Conspiracy Theory was created by the CIA in 1967 as a way to discredit anyone who dared to challenge their official version of the truth (1).
2. an imperfect and incredibly annoying capitalist
Well, we're not handing anything to anyone. Come November, the Jєωs who run this country will hand the Presidency to who they want.Only if you let them. They CAN be beaten, this has been proven in past history. Granted maybe not by Trump right now, but given the situation, THAT is our best option right now. Because Biden and Congola Harrris WILL be coming after you when this is done IF they win. You can see right now what is going on in dem (commie) strongholds. When they have the federal Govt, you are screwed. I don't think most who post on here in safehaven "red" states or whatever have any idea what's in store for them if Trump loses. I'll give you a hint.....THEY HATE YOU.
Lukewarm never solved anything.....but if he looses at least you'll be able to say you voted for him.And what will you say?
If you apply "lesser evil" reasoning to the following scenario:Where has Trump said he's "pro-abortion"? And everyone in politics is "pro-fag" from what i've seen.
Candidate 1:
pro-abortion, pro-sodomite, against prayer in schools, likely to wage unjust wars for Israel, for law and order
Candidate 2:
pro-abortion, pro-sodomite, against prayer in schools, likely to wage unjust wars for Israel, against law and order
then you could bring yourself to vote for Candidate #1, because he's slightly less worse. It becomes a mere mathematical formula.
But is it permitted in the abstract to vote for Candidate #1 ... being pro-abortion and pro-sodomite?
This is the kind of reasoning that needs to be flushed out by trained theologians and simply never has been.
Only if you let them. They CAN be beaten, this has been proven in past history. Granted maybe not by Trump right now, but given the situation, THAT is our best option right now. Because Biden and Congola Harrris WILL be coming after you when this is done IF they win. You can see right now what is going on in dem (commie) strongholds. When they have the federal Govt, you are screwed. I don't think most who post on here in safehaven "red" states or whatever have any idea what's in store for them if Trump loses. I'll give you a hint.....THEY HATE YOU.
You remember that and what's going on around you and remember you sat on the sidelines election day.
Where has Trump said he's "pro-abortion"? And everyone in politics is "pro-fag" from what i've seen.
Seriously, does anyone think a senile Biden is going to be running the country? hαɾɾιs is basically the whole ticket. And she is all in on BLM Marxism. They’ll be arresting us for being white.This is an understatement.
You see, I don't believe that. I believe that the elections are rigged, and I believe that all the leading candidates are totally controlled.Well you're wrong. the problem with Trump is, is he's NOT TOTALLY CONTROLLED.
You see, I don't believe that. I believe that the elections are rigged, and I believe that all the leading candidates are totally controlled.
Well you're wrong. the problem with Trump is, is he's NOT TOTALLY CONTROLLED.
If this were true, then because the choice doesn't matter, it is even LESS of a moral issue to vote for the 'lessor of two evils' because the whole system is a joke. If you truly believe your vote doesn't count, because things are rigged, then voting for a candidate based purely on earthly/utilitarian reasons is no problem.
I didn't say that Candidate #1 was Trump. I was making an argumentum ad absurdum against the so-called "lesser evil" position with two hypothetical candidates, with one being 100% evil, and the second being 98% evil. Lesser evil would say you could (or even had to) vote for the guy who's 98% evil.You put the guy in there where we have the best chance of surviving for now. You live to fight another day.
They will come and take everything you have, enslave you and your family, if they don't just outright kill you.
They are ALREADY threatening to do that NOW.
Now, the favorite and most effective tactic of the Jєωιѕн bankers who run the world is to convince people that they do not run the world ... or that they don't exist.That didn't work in early twentieth century Germany.
No, if the vote is just symbolic, a declaration of who I support, then why would I declare my support for a positively evil candidate like Trump.
No, if the vote is just symbolic, a declaration of who I support, then why would I declare my support for a positively evil candidate like Trump.
I don't think most people on this thread realize the chaos/evil that is set to be unleashed in January if the Dems win. They've already unleashed chaos in certain cities. That's just a warmup. Commie laws will be passed so fast it's gonna make our heads spin.Yes, that's true. they are clueless. this stuff happens real quick.
I don't think most people on this thread realize the chaos/evil that is set to be unleashed in January if the Dems win. They've already unleashed chaos in certain cities. That's just a warmup. Commie laws will be passed so fast it's gonna make our heads spin.
If they want Biden to win in November, then Biden will win.
You give (((THEM))) WAY too much credit...Right. The commies had total control of Poland and Hungary in the 80s and 90s. Now those countries have leaders who are passing laws upholding the natural law, re-asserting their Catholic heritage and supporting family values. So how did the commies lose control? They got bored and left the country? Does prayer not count for anything? Does God leave us orphans and let the evil forces do whatever they want? The NWO doesn't control everything; not by a long shot.
If they want Biden to win in November, then Biden will win.So does that mean they didn't want Hillary to win four years ago?
So does that mean they didn't want Hillary to win four years ago?
Or do you think they just got that powerful recently?
Correct. They wanted Trump in there.
What if you’re wrong and (((they))) don’t have complete control over everything? Then the only thing to do is vote for Trump and hope for the best. But if you’re right, then the only thing to do is pray and do penance. Why don’t you hedge your bet a little and pray and do penance AND vote for Trump? Then you can’t go wrong.
I suppose blackpilled Catholics can point out that the Chastisement is inevitable, and that they DO have hope, for after the Chastisement (some will survive it).
So I guess I can't accuse them of despair or lack of Faith.
Contrary to Croixalist's defeatist, doom-and-gloom despair, the Chastisement while inevitable, can be mitigated. That's why so many of the prophecies seem to paint slightly different pictures of the same time period. Because prayer and sacrifice works wonders; because, just like Ninevah repented and was spared, so too, can our nation (and even Europe) be spared at this late hour. As Abraham asked God to spare Sodom if 10 just men could be found, so too, can our country be spared if just the few of us on this site do our best to please God. Is this not possible? Surely it is!
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Maybe it's too late for God to fully spare America, for her many sins. But we may well be able to change course a bit. God's mercy is limitless and the future is not set!
You see, I don't believe that. I believe that the elections are rigged, and I believe that all the leading candidates are totally controlled.I've always believed that, heck, I never even registered to vote until the last Primaries and only did so out of a faint hope of doing my part against all the media/dem evils and lies. Which is to say that while I still believe it, I don't believe it absolutely. The Jєωs have a play book for every situation.
What is it about Trump that is hopeful? Of course he can go against "Mainstream media" when there's a whole fleet of "alt-media" modern republicans watch more. Is Alex Jones better than mass media or simply different? All we have are Russel conjugations tailored to each false side in the conflict. The more you follow it, the more you fall in line with their agitprop. I have hope in God, not in this WWE political sham.The greatest accomplishment of Trump is his exposure of the great conspiracy. A house divided against itself will fall. Ask yourself, assuming Trump was the greatest actor ever, why would the conspirators allow themselves to be exposed in such a broad way to those who still believed in the left/right paradigm? For those of us who have know about the conspiracy since at least the 1980’s, this makes no sense at all. If they put Hillary in, it would have been game over in no time at all.
If they put Hillary in, it would have been game over in no time at all.I think this also but I also wonder how true this is. I mean, would the Jєω media have agitated the Right into a frenzy like they've agitated the Left, or what would they do? Would they simply declare communism? lock up all resisters? mandate total lawlessness country wide? tax us into starvation etc.?
what would they do?
Start the financial crisis, which leads to ... The NWO begins.Good description of the first half of this year. The rest of the ... is coming fast, but they're certainly started it this year already.
I think this also but I also wonder how true this is. I mean, would the Jєω media have agitated the Right into a frenzy like they've agitated the Left, or what would they do? Would they simply declare communism? lock up all resisters? mandate total lawlessness country wide? tax us into starvation etc.?I’m not positive Stubborn, but I think of the mindset of most conservatives (including my own) at the end of Obama’s regime was one of hopelessness (not in a spiritual sense, of course). Frankly, I thought that we were cooked. Trump gave us hope, a rallying point. Without someone to rally around there would be no way, humanly speaking, we would be able to overcome the conspirators. What would be the point of installing Trump, it only made their final objective harder.
Start the financial crisis, which leads to WW3, which kill billions of people through food shortages, sicknesses from privations, bio-warfare and/or nuclear fallout...all while the elites hide in their bunkers. In the aftermath of the chaos, the middle class is gone and all that's left are sick/starving people who will be happy with any help from the govt. The nations of the world sign a peace treaty with the UN as global govt, and a new global currency to fix the economic problems. The UN declares peace in the Middle East, and Francis tells the new global society that "all religions are one" to start a one-world religion. The NWO begins.Yes, this seems likely to me. I believe they will collapse the markets probably in October.
And if you do distinguish between democans and republicrats, I feel even sorrier for you:Yes we live in a system that gives the perception of choice but they work on the same team just to control us...unfortunately most do not see this because the one sides game uses a different tactic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgGnBCDfCLM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgGnBCDfCLM)
... will help usher in the closing of our chapels much sooner than a vote for Trump..
... Maybe we should try to counter that by praying more and doing more penance. I see discussion about diets here. Why don’t we all do the intermittent fast at least one day a week until the election along with the full Litany of the Saints daily? For the intention for God’s guidance and protection during this time of political instability..
You see, I don't believe that. I believe that the elections are rigged, and I believe that all the leading candidates are totally controlled.I agree that until 2016 the presidential elections were rigged, starting with the primaries. Meet the new boss same as the old boss.
I don't think most people on this thread realize the chaos/evil that is set to be unleashed in January if the Dems win. They've already unleashed chaos in certain cities. That's just a warmup. Commie laws will be passed so fast it's gonna make our heads spin.You are correct. If they had the depth of understanding of how close we are to the precipice, they would not be engaging in "how many angels on the head of a pin" type sophism.
You are correct. If they had the depth of understanding of how close we are to the precipice, they would not be engaging in "how many angels on the head of a pin" type sophism.
Yes, that's true. they are clueless. this stuff happens real quick.Yes. Last week someone posted that he was thinking of moving to somewhere where he could be self-sufficient. Buddy, that ship sailed a long time ago. Those who are not already well trained in how to protect their families from physical harm are going to have to pay top dollar now.
Do you think the Russian aristocracy and bourgeoisie thought they were really in danger prior Oct 1917?
No, the terror came quickly and even the peasant farmers weren't spared.
Don't think it can't happen again.
In fact, I believe the Fatima warnings stated just that.
If they want Biden to win in November, then Biden will win.Murderous and well-connected Hillary was expected to win by the PTB, and she did NOT. They didn't get want they wanted.
Right. The commies had total control of Poland and Hungary in the 80s and 90s. Now those countries have leaders who are passing laws upholding the natural law, re-asserting their Catholic heritage and supporting family values. So how did the commies lose control? They got bored and left the country? Does prayer not count for anything? Does God leave us orphans and let the evil forces do whatever they want? The NWO doesn't control everything; not by a long shot.Thank you for that. God is in control. Prayer changes things.
Contrary to Croixalist's defeatist, doom-and-gloom despair, the Chastisement while inevitable, can be mitigated. That's why so many of the prophecies seem to paint slightly different pictures of the same time period. Because prayer and sacrifice works wonders; because, just like Ninevah repented and was spared, so too, can our nation (and even Europe) be spared at this late hour. As Abraham asked God to spare Sodom if 10 just men could be found, so too, can our country be spared if just the few of us on this site do our best to please God. Is this not possible? Surely it is!My logic goes against this hope. But hope is a supernatural virtue, so thank you.
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Maybe it's too late for God to fully spare America, for her many sins. But we may well be able to change course a bit. God's mercy is limitless and the future is not set!
Plus, I like seeing them suffer.I love how Trump trolls them.
Jonah warned Nineveh, he didn't get busy trying to get involved with their politics.Newsflash: You are a Ninevite, not Jonah. All of us American Ninevites have to do penance.
This is 100% part of our chastisement as a nation that we have to witness these disgusting people rule over us. I'm not all doom-and-gloom, but this political system has to be rebooted.Agree, but that doesn't mean that America has to turn fully commie before it's rebooted.
I fully reserve the right to be a doubt Thomas regarding any of this Trump pollyanna business until I see a glimpse of genuine good will from him.
Murderous and well-connected Hillary was expected to win by the PTB, and she did NOT. They didn't get want they wanted.
No, if she didn't win it was because they didn't want her too. They control the voting machines.They control the machines and even more so in 2020, but not completely. I’ll grant these evil people have a lot of power and are guided by demons, however they are not invincible.
They control the machines and even more so in 2020, but not completely. I’ll grant these evil people have a lot of power and are guided by demons, however they are not invincible.
If they want Biden to win in November, then Biden will win.What happens if (they)) wanted all Catholics sent to the gulags after the election IF Biden wins? (which is a possibility)
Good idea. "And he said to them: This kind can go out by nothing, but by prayer and fasting." Mark 9:29I hear a lot of this "prayer and fasting" and just have faith and let the chastisement and martyrdom come.
I agree that until 2016 the presidential elections were rigged, starting with the primaries. Meet the new boss same as the old boss.Well stated.
2016 was rigged, with all the stops pulled out. They even had the complicity of the alphabet police. They rigged the polls, knowing that most people will vote for the perceived winner. Dead people and illegals voted.
To sat they were shocked that all of their vote tempering and media manipulation failed is an understatement. Their temper tantrum since Trump's election affirms that.
Trump is the ONLY president to ever wade into the satanic cesspool called the UN and give a speech praising God and nationhood. He did not say those things out of ignorance. He knows what they are and he was taunting them, calling them out.
Trump is the ONLY president to ever speak at the Jan 22 March for LIfe. Read his speech. I've been involved in the battle since 1970 and have been blessed to have heart most of the well-known pro-life speeches in person. I heard Trump's on TV and it was the best pro-life speech of all time IMHO.
Cera, this is not sophism, nor technicalities. It's an attempt to understand the CATHOLIC principles behind voting for bad candidates, like the pro-sodomite Trump. We're trying to inform our consciences and do what pleases God.How bout what offends God less.
I love how Trump trolls them.They deserved to be mocked.
So if you want to give a little more time to the USA before it throws itself into the arms of Satan, vote for Trump. If you want Satan to take over the USA as soon as possible, vote for Biden.Damn, this is exactly what I was saying! I have not read any of what the Bishop had to say on the election. this all comes from my years of the Faith and what I know in my heart. a blind man could see what we have to do here.
Murderous and well-connected Hillary was expected to win by the PTB, and she did NOT. They didn't get want they wanted.Because maybe God got what he wanted.
They control the machines and even more so in 2020, but not completely. I’ll grant these evil people have a lot of power and are guided by demons, however they are not invincible.That is absolutely correct . THEY CAN BE BEATEN.
Stop the damn defeatism.
You're totally naive. Yes, they can be defeated, as God wills, but not by going to vote in November and certainly not by Trump. That's just a joke.
Cera, this is not sophism, nor technicalities. It's an attempt to understand the CATHOLIC principles behind voting for bad candidates, like the pro-sodomite Trump. We're trying to inform our consciences and do what pleases God.Lad, I wasn't referring to you. I see that you are really approaching this as a Catholic. It was someone else.
And if you do distinguish between democans and republicrats, I feel even sorrier for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgGnBCDfCLM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgGnBCDfCLM)
Newsflash: You are a Ninevite, not Jonah. All of us American Ninevites have to do penance.
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Agree, but that doesn't mean that America has to turn fully commie before it's rebooted.
.
You've not seen one glimpse of good? Is that the extent of your despair? Or do you just listen to the mainstream media?
Contrary to Croixalist's defeatist, doom-and-gloom despair, the Chastisement while inevitable, can be mitigated. That's why so many of the prophecies seem to paint slightly different pictures of the same time period. Because prayer and sacrifice works wonders; because, just like Ninevah repented and was spared, so too, can our nation (and even Europe) be spared at this late hour. As Abraham asked God to spare Sodom if 10 just men could be found, so too, can our country be spared if just the few of us on this site do our best to please God. Is this not possible? Surely it is!
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Maybe it's too late for God to fully spare America, for her many sins. But we may well be able to change course a bit. God's mercy is limitless and the future is not set!
If we explore the event a little further, it wasn't until the king also did penance and put out the order for all to do likewise. God was making the point as he did many other times that the blessings or the curses of a people where called down by the actions of their kings. Are we so sure today is much different?I agree it has this meaning. Rulers are important. But it also has other meanings too, as in, penance done by non-leaders can still help a country. The story of Abraham pleading for mercy on Sodom "if he could find 10 just men" is a story where God would spare a country, apart from the actions of a leader. So Scripture teaches that mercy can happen through and in spite of leaders.
If it isn't, Trump's mockery of true religion will only call down additional curses, much the same as any Dem. Trump needs to be shouted down, not coddled.Trump is no saint, as you repeatedly harp. But you act like he's as bad as Obama; that's just not true. Trump is wholeheartedly pro-life in his "leadership" capacity (his personal views are irrelevant). Trump has also declared (at least twice) of a national day of prayer (which Obama never did).
We are well beyond Communism. Communism was simply window dressing for people who thought economics must be the prime mover of mankind. We are firmly in the mouth of the spirit of antichrist. The flesh is being stripped right off our bones.Communism; anti-christ. Same difference. Both are anti-god. The former is a mode of govt; the latter a mode of religion.
Again I'm not despairing, but I'm not putting any faith in these God-forsaken modes of political control.
I agree it has this meaning. Rulers are important. But it also has other meanings too, as in, penance done by non-leaders can still help a country. The story of Abraham pleading for mercy on Sodom "if he could find 10 just men" is a story where God would spare a country, apart from the actions of a leader. So Scripture teaches that mercy can happen through and in spite of leaders.
.
Trump is no saint, as you repeatedly harp. But you act like he's as bad as Obama; that's just not true. Trump is wholeheartedly pro-life in his "leadership" capacity (his personal views are irrelevant). Trump has also declared (at least twice) of a national day of prayer (which Obama never did).
.
Communism; anti-christ. Same difference. Both are anti-god. The former is a mode of govt; the latter a mode of religion.
.
No one's putting faith in anyone except God and His heavenly armies. But we also can't ignore temporal politics and act like it doesn't affect us.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/trump-my-great-honor-to-be-called-the-the-most-pro-gαy-president-in-american-history (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/trump-my-great-honor-to-be-called-the-the-most-pro-gαy-president-in-american-history)If you think that Donald Trump is the most pro-gαy president then wait for Joe Biden. I think he will be a lot worse.
Trump: ‘My great honor’ to be called the ‘the most pro-gαy president in American history’
President Trump has given it a pro-LGBT ad from the Log Cabin Republicans his personal stamp of approval.
Thu Aug 20, 2020 - 4:33 pm EST
- (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/trump-my-great-honor-to-be-called-the-the-most-pro-gαy-president-in-american-history#)
- (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/trump-my-great-honor-to-be-called-the-the-most-pro-gαy-president-in-american-history#)
(https://assets.lifesitenews.com/images/made/images/remote/https_www.lifesitenews.com/images/local/grenell_and_trump_480_296_75_c1.jpg)Richard Grenell and President TrumpRichardGrenell | Twitter
(https://assets.lifesitenews.com/images/made/images/remote/https_www.lifesitenews.com/images/local/Doug_Mainwaring_Photo_1_70_70_75gray_s_c1.jpg)By Doug Mainwaring
FOLLOW DOUG (https://www.lifesitenews.com/ajax/author-profile/doug-mainwaring)
PETITION: Tell Trump Christians can’t accept SCOTUS ruling imposing LGBT ideology! Sign the petition here. (https://lifepetitions.com/petition/tell-trump-christians-can-t-accept-scotus-ruling-imposing-lgbt-ideology)
ANALYSIS
WASHINGTON, D.C., August 20, 2020 (LifeSiteNews (http://www.lifesitenews.com/)) – President Donald Trump has embraced the message that he is “the most pro-gαy president in American history,” after his former acting Director of National Intelligence (DNI) and Ambassador to Germany, self-identified ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ Richard Grenell, made the claim in a viral new video ad (https://twitter.com/LogCabinGOP/status/1296039209891819520).
Moreover, Grenell has just been tapped by the Republican National Committee (RNC) to serve as a senior adviser focused on outreach to LGBT voters, according to a Fox News report (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ric-grenell-joins-rnc-lgbt-voter-outreach).
“My great honor!!!” exclaimed the President, reweeting Grenell’s declaration that “President Trump is the most pro-gαy president in American history.”
Views of the video – which had already quickly gone viral – accelerated, topping 4 million in less than 30 hours and still going strong.
Initially it was unclear if the ad, sponsored by the pro-LGBT Log Cabin Republicans, had been approved by the Trump campaign. But now the president himself has given it his personal stamp of approval.
Trump’s very public affirmation of Grenell’s message combined with the RNC’s official creation of an outreach aimed at LGBT voters spearheaded by Grenell creates a conundrum for many conservative religious voters. Such voters have wholeheartedly praised the president for his many actions to protect the life of the unborn and defend religious liberty, but they reject the normalization of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity in American culture.
The progressive LGBT political machine, which previously has been a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Democratic Party, has, along with the abortion industry, proven to be the greatest threat to religious liberty this nation has known in recent decades.
Wedding cake bakers (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/baker-says-hed-rather-go-to-jail-after-judge-orders-him-to-bake-cakes-for-g), photographers (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/photographers-guilty-of-discrimination-for-refusing-to-shoot-same-sex-weddi), florists (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/elderly-christian-florist-faces-thousands-in-fines-for-refusing-to-provide), and many others can attest to that.
The presence of LGBT political heft within the Republican Party may lead to a weakening (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/conservatives-worry-about-trump-caving-to-lbgt-pressure-on-religious-libert) of religious liberty while further normalizing ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, same-sex marriage, and transgenderism – a direct affront to Christianity and other religions.
Grenell: ‘I can prove it’
“President Trump is the most pro-gαy president in American history,” said Grenell at the outset of his video ad.
“I can prove it,” he added. Grenell then goes on to list how Trump is the “strongest ally that gαy Americans have ever had in the White House,” substantiating, in effect, that Trump policy when it comes to marriage and sɛҳuąƖity differs from that of Christianity.
In the ad, Grenell slams Democrat presidential candidate Joe Biden’s 40-year track record on gαy issues while touting Trump’s record, both official and implied.
“President Trump has done more to advance the rights of gαys and lesbians in three years than Joe Biden did in 40-plus years in Washington,” Grenell said.
“I know firsthand that President Trump is the strongest ally that gαy Americans have ever had in the White House,” the former head cabinet member said.
“Donald Trump is the first president in American history to be pro-gαy marriage from his first day in office,” Grenell declared. “President Trump knew I was gαy when he appointed me to one of the most prestigious and powerful ambassadorships in the world.”
Grenell is a self-proclaimed conservative, Christian, pro-life, gαy man who has often been the target of harsh criticism from LGBT commentators and mainstream media because of his beliefs. He has also proved to be one of President Trump’s most potent (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/richard-grenell-delivers-satchel-of-docuмents-to-doj-that-shatter-schiff-collusion-claims-report), trusted allies. Progressives generally dislike him and conservatives generally admire him.
Log Cabin Republicans say (http://www.logcabin.org/about-us/)s its purpose is to “to make the Republican Party more inclusive, particularly on LGBT issues,” which conservatives generally take to mean diluting and eventually eliminating the GOP’s traditional conservative stances on marriage, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, and transgender ideology. As such, the group is more aptly described as “Libertarian” rather than “Conservative.”
The organization challenged the military’s “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy against open ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity in the military and lobbied Republican lawmakers to vote to repeal the policy. It also welcomed the Supreme Court’s 2015 Obergefell v. Hodges decision instituting same-sex “marriage” across the United States.
In the just-released video, Grenell aligns himself with Log Cabin’s views, blasting Biden, who as a U.S. Senator supported “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” and the “Defense of Marriage Act.” Biden was also “against marriage equality.”
President Trump had previously indicated that he is “fine (https://www.cnn.com/2016/11/14/politics/trump-gαy-marriage-abortion-supreme-court/index.html)” with the Supreme Court’s opinion legalizing same-sex “marriage,” calling the matter “settled.”
Trump advisory board member Steve Mosher, an acclaimed author, speaker, and founder and head of the Population Research Institute (https://www.pop.org/), told LifeSiteNews that, overall, Trump is taking bold stands on the culture wars front.
“On the culture wars front, Trump has probably done more than any president since Calvin Coolidge,” he said.
“He has opposed abortion on demand more openly and consistently than any prior president. And then there are the sheer number of judges, which eclipses the record of any prior president in a single term,” Mosher continued in a statement to LifeSiteNews.
“On the transgender front, since April 12, 2019, transgenders are not allowed to serve or enlist in the United States military. As far as the rest of the almost infinite number of aberrations found in our sex-crazed society, most cannot be solved by policies or presidents,” Mosher observed.
“So the glass is pretty full, in my view,” he added. “We must not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.”
Despite Grenell’s claims that Trump is more pro-gαy than Biden, the Democrats’ 2020 platform (https://www.demconvention.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020-07-31-Democratic-Party-Platform-For-Distribution.pdf)promises, among other things, to enact the far-left so-called Equality Act; guarantee boys can enter girls’ bathrooms and vice versa; and “ban harmful ‘conversion therapy’ practices.” It says “medically accurate, LGBTQ+ inclusive, age-appropriate sex education” is “essential” and boasts that Democrats “will work to ensure LGBTQ+ people are not discriminated against when seeking to adopt or foster children.”
Full transcript of the Grenell/Log Cabin Republicans video:
We are well beyond Communism.No. We haven't had our "killing fields" yet.
but the point is if the ruler remains unbowed and carries on as if God doesn't exist, whether or not there is someone even worse out there than he is, unless he repents he will share their fate and call down evil upon the people under his care.
What you say is true, to a certain extent, but the story of Abraham/Sodom rebuts your logic, overall. You say that prayers/penances only call down God's mercy on cities, but will not help countries. Makes no sense.
Sodom wasn't saved.Only Because there weren’t 10 just men found in Sodom, not because the ruler was bad, nor because God didn’t offer mercy, which He did...and He’ll offer mercy to our country too, if enough of us live our lives aspiring for sanctity.
Only Because there weren’t 10 just men found in Sodom, not because the ruler was bad, nor because God didn’t offer mercy, which He did...and He’ll offer mercy to our country too, if enough of us live our lives aspiring for sanctity.
.
You can argue there aren’t enough just men in America to warrant mercy, but you don’t know that for sure.
Nineveh would be the model we're looking for where the king and the people repented and the city was saved. But it must be both.
A case could be made that it is morally obligatory to vote for President Trump ...
Sean Johnson, it's a mortal sin to vote for Biden.Sean is sitting out the election, so he's not voting for Biden.
summarizes this thread:
(http://images.memes.com/meme/873598) (https://www.rooshvforum.com/threads/memes-and-gifs-that-will-instantly-trigger-leftists.26857/#post-937401)
I’m basically giving up on the world. When even Traditional Catholics are duped into believing that the Jєωs do not control the Presidency and most of Congress, there’s no hope left outside God’s direct intervention.So you know more than +Williamson and +Vigano.
And if one more Trad uses the term lesser evil, my head is going to explode.
You guys are asleep at the switch and being played for fools. It’s downright embarrassing.
I’m not voting at all in November, not playing along with the charade that our votes mean a damn thing in this Ziocracy.
Even Bishop Williamson has fallen for this crap, spending too much time with Brit socialites. There was actually some truth in Pfeiffer’s otherwise-unhinged excoriation of +Williamson ... who, among other things, continues to harbor a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ offender.
So you know more than +Williamson and +Vigano.
You and the rest of the do-nothing trolls sit this one out.
...
So IF sleepy joe and the commies take over and turn this country into a complete third world sh*t hole, and subject us to the globalist elitists serfdom,I don't want to hear crap out of you people.
...
Now you bastards know where I stand.
With vulgarity like that, how could God possibly resist?Yes, sodomy is vulgar.
Yes, sodomy is vulgar.
I interpret that meme in a Machiavellian sense: keep your enemies closer.
Now, why would you think God works through Machiavellian principles?God's omnipotent. He can use and has frequently throughout history used evil instruments for a good end.
Why would he allow an unrepentant scuмbag like Trump, objectively in the state of mortal sin, to lead anything for his Church?What does his state of grace (or lack thereof) have to do with his policies?
God's omnipotent. He can use and has frequently throughout history used evil instruments for a good end.
What does his state of grace (or lack thereof) have to do with his policies?
[Trump] isn’t perfect ...
QuoteI’m basically giving up on the world. When even Traditional Catholics are duped into believing that the Jєωs do not control the Presidency and most of Congress, there’s no hope left outside God’s direct intervention.
(https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=57509.msg712750#msg712750)
Hey Lad, don't give up man. It's always darkest right before dawn, as they say. God is in control and He's allowing all this chaos for the good of the highest number of souls possible. The game-changer in all of this is when the Church gets back on Her feet. I know a guy that was good friends with a holy Trad priest, who died a few years ago. When Fr was dying, he told this guy that the Church would come back in his lifetime. The guy is currently in his 70s. ...Prophecies say that the Church's resurrection will happen so suddenly as to leave people speechless.
I bet if I called +Williamson out on the fact that Trump is owned (and controlled by the Jєωs) and that only those get elected whom the Jєωs control, he'd think about it for a second and agree.(http://www.relatably.com/m/img/do-it-memes/JoT9Qw.png)
Many queer traditional or orthodox clergy.Right to the very top!
The Trump question comes down to two things, for me.
1: Obviously Trump is pretty defective, not just "not perfect." But he presents himself as anti globalism, anti NWO. Obviously he's not perfect at this, but does he meaningfully distinguish himself from Biden, in that regard?
2: If Trump meaningfully distinguishes himself from Biden in that regard, does that justify someone who wants to vote for him, despite his serious flaws?
I currently think the answer to both of those is yes. However, I'm not kidding myself to think he's not infiltrated to any degree, nor do I see how I can bind anyone's consciences to vote for him.
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To those here who harbor such hatred for President Trump and think he is part of the conspiracy, here is a story I posted a while back:
A few years ago Father Collins told me a story about a Traditional Catholic he knew named Mr. Kearn. (Not sure of the spelling). Mr. Kearn had Parkinson’s disease and his hands shook terribly. He was in a restaurant in Las Vegas and he was trying to put his fork in his mouth, but was having trouble. A man came up to him and held his hand to steady it. That man was Donald Trump.
He can't help but be part of it. You don't get to play unless you have some skin in the game. Nice story though. Mussolini might have walked an old lady across the street after he ran over and killed a young girl. Hitler might have saved kittens. But Stalin! Stalin actually banned abortions in 1933. I take great comfort knowing most of today's trad Catholic scene would vote for Stalin in an instant if he were "running" for office today.
Congratulations, you've been played.
He can't help but be part of it. You don't get to play unless you have some skin in the game. Nice story though. Mussolini might have walked an old lady across the street after he ran over and killed a young girl. Hitler might have saved kittens. But Stalin! Stalin actually banned abortions in 1933. I take great comfort knowing most of today's trad Catholic scene would vote for Stalin in an instant if he were "running" for office today.No, I don’t believe that I’ve “been played”. Actually, it’s thinking charitably about ones neighbor unless you have an abundance of evidence to the contrary. Most of your “proof” that he has “skin in the game” is based solely on your assumptions and in some cases, but not all, on rash judgments. I have one question for you: do you think Trump could pull this “canard” off if he and his whole family weren’t excellent actors? In other words, wouldn’t he and his entire family have to be great actors in order to dupe me and his other supporters?
Congratulations, you've been played.
Per St. Francis of Assisi's deathbed warning:
"Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."
No, I don’t believe that I’ve “been played”. Actually, it’s thinking charitably about ones neighbor unless you have an abundance of evidence to the contrary. Most of your “proof” that he has “skin in the game” is based solely on your assumptions and in some cases, but not all, on rash judgments. I have one question for you: do you think Trump could pull this “canard” off if he and his whole family weren’t excellent actors? In other words, wouldn’t he and his entire family have to be great actors in order to dupe me and his other supporters?
He can't help but be part of it. You don't get to play unless you have some skin in the game. Nice story though. Mussolini might have walked an old lady across the street after he ran over and killed a young girl. Hitler might have saved kittens. But Stalin! Stalin actually banned abortions in 1933. I take great comfort knowing most of today's trad Catholic scene would vote for Stalin in an instant if he were "running" for office today.
Congratulations, you've been played.
Right, a single virtuous act by itself doesn't amount to much. He's not pure evil after all. Heck, even Satan isn't pure evil, or he wouldn't exist. And nobody's saying that Trump is Satan. Even serial killers were often kind in their everyday lives. That's doesn't make them upright men. I'm sure that Barrack Obama or Joe Biden occasionally performed some acts of kindness for people, but I wouldn't vote for them either.
We've got a lot of destroyers out there. Bergog Magog being the worst currently.
Trump is a notorious public sinner, has been for most of his life. That should serve as evidence. I don't think you have to be a great actor necessarily, though of course it does help having a certain amount of charisma which he does have. All you have to be is a lifelong liar with a conscience so worn down as to be virtually non-existent, no access to the sacraments and an all consuming desire to be as worldly successful as possible.
Well it’s obvious to me and many others, who *you* believe have been “duped”, that he must be putting on the performance of the century, if in fact you are correct in your assessment. Your assessment is, in reality, no more or less than a gut instinct, so frankly I don’t blame you for following your conscience. Remember, if I’m wrong about Trump, you and I are going to have a lot more to worry about than this debate.
I never would have guessed that trads would fall into Trump Derangement Syndrome. Serial killer? Really? Unbelievable!
https://www.facebook.com/gαytraditionalistcatholic/ (https://www.facebook.com/gαytraditionalistcatholic/)
Quo, he doesn't really act Catholic at all. What act are you falling for? At best he's like a Protestant Freemason waving his 66 books in the air, not having any knowledge of the things of God, or even the false Bible translation he holds in his hands. But he'll brag about how much he loves the Bible.
One of my personal favorites, and one that I myself really, really wanted to believe in was when he was said he would pursue prosecution for Hillary once he got elected. Wouldn't you just know it, it never happened. None of these people are devoted Catholics, therefore none of them live like they have a duty to God and to their fellow man to do what is right... by Him.
The amount and severity of corruption in our highest levels of government indicates to me that any valid conversion to the Catholic Church must be accompanied by a fearless martyr spirit. You better believe they won't have much longer to live so they might as well go out fighting. That's what I'm looking for and I won't back off until I see it!
Who said serial killer?
No doubt they are totally gαy for Trump!
On this particular issue, yes, yes I do. I bet if I called +Williamson out on the fact that Trump is owned (and controlled by the Jєωs) and that only those get elected whom the Jєωs control, he'd think about it for a second and agree.Yea, well, no kidding. show me a politician these days who isn't? That's like calling out the fact any politician is owned and controlled by the devil, because the matter of fact is, they all have sold out to a certain extent. You can't even get a smidgen somewhere in the world of politics ( and everywhere else these days) without acknowledging and dealing with the Jєωιѕн hegemony over our culture and need to work within it accordingly in some capacity to move forward an agenda.
Yep, I plan on it. Or I might go and vote for Pat Buchanan (while voting for various local issues and offices). And by going to the polls in November, you too will "do nothing"Bullsh*t. At least I'm TRYING to do something about it. Your apathy wreaks of defeatism. The irony is, YOUR vote for Buchanan will do nothing, it's meaningless other than to sully your conscience. As for me and my house, we will at least try and fend off the coming commie coup d'etat the best way possible for now.
by pulling the lever and making a symbolic vote for a degenerate like Donald Trump.And by not pulling any lever, you allow and enable the party of even bigger dangerous degenerates like Biden, Peℓσѕι, Clinton(s), Cuomo and the like to take control and systematically destroy this country and persecute Christians and anyone with a sense of normalcy, morality and patriotism within the culture. Well done. But hey, DT for fαɢs. ::)
On top of that, especially in New York, your vote will mean absolutely nothing as that state will inevitably go Blue.You go ahead an assume that defeatist attitude and you will be sure to gain NOTHING. Here's the point;
So the only thing you're doing is polluting your conscience, such as it is.Please, the last thing I need is to be is preached to by twits like you and other trolls on this thread about my "conscience".
If the Jєωs want Pedo Joe to be the face of the Presidency (while pulling his strings the entire time), then Joe will get "elected" (aka appointed). If they want 4 more years of Trump, then that's what our Jєωιѕн masters will give us.Well, you let THEM tell you what to do. I'm not playing that game. the only way ((they)) have any power, is if YOU give it to them. and you do that by hiding in your basement and just let them have their way, because, after all, ((they)) ARE our MASTERS. Some FAITH some of you catholics have. It's not at all in GOD'S HANDS, but da jooos. ::)
Like they'd ever actually let us decide (https://www.cathinfo.com/Smileys/classic/jester.gif)
Why don't you move and get out of NY if you hate it that bad? NY will never go conservative ... until God wipes most of it out in the Three Days of Darkness.Well, first of all, I'm not abandoning my family. and second, I believe ANY state can be turned either way, at any time. Look at all the solidly "conservative" Southern and Central states that are now becoming somewhat suspect of becoming Blue? even Texas is not a slam dunk anymore. No, there's no where to run anymore and be sure. The only sure thing to do is stand and FIGHT these commie bastards like MEN and Patriots that mad this country what it is, or once was. I'm not into this cutting and running crap. I actually do have FAITH that we can FIGHT and WIN this battle, for now at least.
Bullsh*t. At least I'm TRYING to do something about it. Your apathy wreaks of defeatism. The irony is, YOUR vote for Buchanan will do nothing, it's meaningless other than to sully your conscience. As for me and my house, we will at least try and fend off the coming commie coup d'etat the best way possible for now.
And by not pulling any lever, you allow and enable the party of even bigger dangerous degenerates like Biden, Peℓσѕι, Clinton(s), Cuomo and the like to take control and systematically destroy this country and persecute Christians and anyone with a sense of normalcy, morality and patriotism within the culture. Well done. But hey, DT for fαɢs. ::)
You go ahead an assume that defeatist attitude and you will be sure to gain NOTHING. Here's the point;
There are a LOT of pissed off people in the state AND the city of NY right now, the dems and their actions regarding the virus and the riots have been an absolute disaster, NYC is LITERALLY crumbling before us and they LITERALLY want to string Deblasio and Cuomo up everywhere in the state and city. I really believe that THEY (commies-dems) OVERPLAYED their hand here and JUST ASSUMED everyone where would just do business as usual and vote far left, liberal and "democrat". I think they're ALL in for a huge surprise come November. I could be wrong, but i'm just reading the signs. one thing for sure, the only way the state WILL go blue, is, if they listen to guys like you and just assume the worst. Because then they will get it.
Please, the last thing I need is to be is preached to by twits like you and other trolls on this thread about my "conscience".
We're in a war here ( and i mean physically), the last thing I need to here is i'm violating my conscience by trying to actually do something about it.
Well, you let THEM tell you what to do. I'm not playing that game. the only way ((they)) have any power, is if YOU give it to them. and you do that by hiding in your basement and just let them have their way, because, after all, ((they)) ARE our MASTERS. Some FAITH some of you catholics have. It's not at all in GOD'S HANDS, but da jooos. ::)
Well, first of all, I'm not abandoning my family. and second, I believe ANY state can be turned either way, at any time. Look at all the solidly "conservative" Southern and Central states that are now becoming somewhat suspect of becoming Blue? even Texas is not a slam dunk anymore. No, there's no where to run anymore and be sure. The only sure thing to do is stand and FIGHT these commie bastards like MEN and Patriots that mad this country what it is, or once was. I'm not into this cutting and running crap. I actually do have FAITH that we can FIGHT and WIN this battle, for now at least.
As for the three days of darkness, from what I understand, it's not going to matter where you live. so, get that thought out of your head.
Can you say "false dilemma?" Say it with me!There is no dilemma here for me, there is only reality. And the reality is we have only two choices for now.
There is no dilemma here for me, there is only reality. And the reality is we have only two choices for now.Good post, alaric.👍 It seems that some of those who think it’s a mortal sin to vote for Trump are somewhat puritanical. I hate to say it but, they almost approach a Jansenistic mentality. For the record, I don't believe it’s a sin if you *don’t* vote for Trump if your conscience is telling you not to.
A man who will lead us forward into progress, safety and wealth. Or a man who will lead us into the darkness, danger, violence,death and destruction and hand the country over to the globalists for our ultimate national demise.
The choice is simple for me, FOR NOW. I'm not getting into all the explanations and assumptions we've been over and over on this thread, it's become quite tiresome and at this point not productive anymore. Occam's razor need apply here.
I'm voting for Trump because I believe that is what's best for me, my family, the Church and the state at large.
If I'd lived in Syria and I had to choose between Assad and ISIS, the decision couldn't be more obvious at the clear and present danger to me and my family in the present situation. Even though Assad is a "muslim", I have to support him.
And that's what we have here, Trump (Assad) is not perfect, but he's the way we HAVE to go. Because Biden (ISIS) and his party of terrorists will actively pursue our ultimate destruction. And that IS THE REALITY. I've been saying for quite some time now, WE ARE IN cινιℓ ωαr, whether you want to accept it or not, matters not, it's coming to your doorstep and for some in this country ( I personally know some it has ) it's already there. And just like in Syria, I don't have to wait until they have public executions of political enemies or start beheading catholic bishops and priests to try and do something about it NOW.
This is about all I'm going to say on this from this point forward. I don't believe it's a mortal sin to vote for Trump.
Indeed, I'm about the point where I believe it's a mortal sin if you don't. ( well not really, but it's THAT important)
There is no dilemma here for me, there is only reality. And the reality is we have only two choices for now.
A man who will lead us forward into progress, safety and wealth. Or a man who will lead us into the darkness, danger, violence,death and destruction and hand the country over to the globalists for our ultimate national demise.
The choice is simple for me, FOR NOW. I'm not getting into all the explanations and assumptions we've been over and over on this thread, it's become quite tiresome and at this point not productive anymore. Occam's razor need apply here.
I'm voting for Trump because I believe that is what's best for me, my family, the Church and the state at large.
If I'd lived in Syria and I had to choose between Assad and ISIS, the decision couldn't be more obvious at the clear and present danger to me and my family in the present situation. Even though Assad is a "muslim", I have to support him.
And that's what we have here, Trump (Assad) is not perfect, but he's the way we HAVE to go. Because Biden (ISIS) and his party of terrorists will actively pursue our ultimate destruction. And that IS THE REALITY. I've been saying for quite some time now, WE ARE IN cινιℓ ωαr, whether you want to accept it or not, matters not, it's coming to your doorstep and for some in this country ( I personally know some it has ) it's already there. And just like in Syria, I don't have to wait until they have public executions of political enemies or start beheading catholic bishops and priests to try and do something about it NOW.
This is about all I'm going to say on this from this point forward. I don't believe it's a mortal sin to vote for Trump.
Indeed, I'm about the point where I believe it's a mortal sin if you don't. ( well not really, but it's THAT important)
Good post, alaric.👍 It seems that some of those who think it’s a mortal sin to vote for Trump are somewhat puritanical. I hate to say it but, they almost approach a Jansenistic mentality. For the record, I don't believe it’s a sin if you *don’t* vote for Trump if your conscience is telling you not to.
I don't think it's a mortal sin either, but it is a waste of time and can eventually lead to sin if you become too caught up in the Trump indoctrination campaign like alaric here.
Good to hear, but one major point of disagreement is my belief that I don’t think it’s a waste of time. Trump, with all of his issues, *can* be the catalyst for a peaceful restoration to the founders (some obviously erroneous) principles and then a possibility for us catholics to carve out a niche to create a truly Catholic society. I know it’s seems highly unlikely, but I think it’s something both you, I and most all readers of this forum would be in favor of.
Trump must keep in line with his Jєωιѕн controlers, since he is now pro vaccination there is no point in voting , America is cooked , stick a fork into it.
Good to hear, but one major point of disagreement is my belief that I don’t think it’s a waste of time. Trump, with all of his issues, *can* be the catalyst for a peaceful restoration to the founders (some obviously erroneous) principles and then a possibility for us catholics to carve out a niche to create a truly Catholic society. I know it’s seems highly unlikely, but I think it’s something both you, I and most all readers of this forum would be in favor of.
Trump must keep in line with his Jєωιѕн controlers, since he is now pro vaccination there is no point in voting , America is cooked , stick a fork into it.
Trump is the Napoleon option.It would be really cool if Trump kidnapped Bergoglio and made him crown him emperor. I think I am alone on this forum in expressing the desire for Trump to declare himself dictator (even though I don't really like him).
Maybe Trump has some autonomy....
There is a lesser of two evils ...
Not for Catholics. "Lesser of two evils" is contrary to core Catholic principles. Catholics think in terms of "double effect." I'm not sure how many times i need to repeat this. Catholics can never do evil even to prevent a much greater evil. But Catholics may make a choice with an intended good outcome even if unintended bad outcomes might result as well ... if certain conditions apply.It is a basic point of the faith that we cannot promote or otherwise endorse evil in order to achieve good. I do not see where voting for Trump is endorsing evil, otoh, it is easy to see that voting for Biden is certain to promote and endorse evil.
It is a basic point of the faith that we cannot promote or otherwise endorse evil in order to achieve good. I do not see where voting for Trump is endorsing evil, otoh, it is easy to see that voting for Biden is certain to promote and endorse evil.
Well, when one is voting for Trump, one is voting for some evils that come along with him (that have been adequately docuмented on this thread). So, for instance, one is voting for someone who condones and even glorifies sodomy. At the same time one is voting for someone who has shown some commitment in favor of the unborn. So there's some good, and there's some bad.This is not comparing apples to apples. In the case of the ectopic pregnancy, although he is for it, Trump has not legislated abortion in such cases, and although sadly he wrongly approves of abortion in that case and some other cases, *as far as I know* he has not signed into law, nor has he made it any kind of official policy - if anything he has signed anti-abortion legislation and publicly condemns abortion over all.
But what a Catholic voter does is to promote the good (anti-abortion) while also at the same time recognizing that there's evil that has come along with it. So, for instance, the classic case of double effect is to perform an operation in an ektopic pregnancy to save the mother's life, knowing, however, that it will cost the life of the unborn child. Even such an operation has to be performed very carefully so that one does not directly take the life of the unborn child, but, rather, removes the thread to the mother, without directly causing the death of the unborn child. So the question of double effect with Trump is whether one's vote actually directly causes the evils that might be promoted by Trump during a second term. This is where the application of double effect to voting becomes murky, and this really needs to be developed by Catholic moral theologians. It's an extremely neglected aspect of Catholic moral theology.
This is not comparing apples to apples.
Not for Catholics. "Lesser of two evils" is contrary to core Catholic principles. Catholics think in terms of "double effect." I'm not sure how many times i need to repeat this. Catholics can never do evil even to prevent a much greater evil. But Catholics may make a choice with an intended good outcome even if unintended bad outcomes might result as well ... if certain conditions apply.I understand what you are saying. BUT CAN YOU SHOW ME WHERE YOU ARE FINDING THIS??? Prior to Pope Leo XIII, the Catholics were taught to not vote in the elections of Italy due to Socialism. I can see your point that you speak of here. Now again Pope Leo XIII had a different view and that view was the Catholics needed to vote. Again Pope Leo said in an election with two Socialists you must vote for the lesser of two evils. Pope Pius XI scolded the Catholics in Germany for sitting out the election and said this is why Adolph Hitler was able to be placed in power. I have cited my sources previously to my points in Canon Law Study for Catholics voting.
Prior to Pope Leo XIII, the Catholics were taught to not vote in the elections of Italy due to Socialism. . . . Again Pope Leo said in an election with two Socialists you must vote for the lesser of two evils. Pope Pius XI scolded the Catholics in Germany for sitting out the election and said this is why Adolph Hitler was able to be placed in power.
I understand what you are saying. BUT CAN YOU SHOW ME WHERE YOU ARE FINDING THIS??? Prior to Pope Leo XIII, the Catholics were taught to not vote in the elections of Italy due to Socialism. I can see your point that you speak of here. Now again Pope Leo XIII had a different view and that view was the Catholics needed to vote. Again Pope Leo said in an election with two Socialists you must vote for the lesser of two evils. Pope Pius XI scolded the Catholics in Germany for sitting out the election and said this is why Adolph Hitler was able to be placed in power. I have cited my sources previously to my points in Canon Law Study for Catholics voting.
Pius XI was also the man who betrayed the Cristeros.Lad, your point is well taken regarding double effect, but I would tread carefully when you attribute betrayal to Pope Piux XI. We don’t have all of the facts in the case nor do we know what his councilors, perhaps erroneously, told him. Obviously, in retrospect, his decision was a poor one, but remember that it was God’s will that it happened that way.
Lad, your point is well taken regarding double effect, but I would tread carefully when you attribute betrayal to Pope Piux XI. We don’t have all of the facts in the case nor do we know what his councilors, perhaps erroneously, told him. Obviously, in retrospect, his decision was a poor one, but remember that it was God’s will that it happened that way.
Ratti’s cursus honorum is marked by a high cultural level combined with a shrewd political skill. He never abandoned intransigent ecclesiology: his main aim was defending and preserving the rights and privileges of the Catholic Church, even at the cost to sign “pact(s) with the devil(s).” I think, as Kertzer demonstrates, that this primary intention of Pius XI should never be forgotten. Even if during his pontificate he had often realized and feared the incongruity of these “partnerships,” it was only at the end of his life that he definitely recognized that the costs had been, and kept on being, too high.
The story of the Cristeros, alas, is not one of victory. That does not make it less than inspiring, however, for if they finally laid down their arms, they did not really surrender to the Revolution against which they fought. Militarily they had brilliant successes, and that they could ultimately have prevailed in the field is possible. In May, 1929, it even looked likely. However, they lacked the support they deserved. This is not to speak of popular support, for theirs was already genuinely a popular rising. What was missing, except at the very beginning (and which was not of a practical nature even then) was the support of the bishops of the Church in Mexico. Missing too was the support of the Holy See, which had once thundered against the regime in Mexico City, but that was before a deal was reached with it, a deal fatal to the Cristeros. Insofar as the bishops and Holy See went the route they did, instead of supporting the Cristeros, it could be said the peasant-warriors were betrayed by the very men for whom they fought.
Betrayed they were.
No, the expression that's faulty is "lesser of two evils" ... that is not Catholic and is equivalent to "end justifies the means". It's Catholic moral theology 101. You cannot do an evil even to prevent a much greater evil. One can vote for the less defective candidate based on double effect. ...Well said.
... please use Catholic language and rephrase it as an exercise in double effect. Constantly using the utilitarian "lesser of two evils" phrase can be pernicious. It's the same reasoning which would have some people think it's OK to kill a couple innocent people in order to save millions. There was a TV show some years ago in which a terrorist threatened to unleash a nuclear weapon on a city if the U.S. agent did not kill another agent (who was innocent) ... because that agent was getting too close to finding him. So the guy did it. Too many Catholics might start reasoning that this would be OK and start warping their Catholic sense for moral theology. It's not any kind of dilemma. You are not permitted to take that single innocent life even if it's to potentially save millions. You cannot perpetrate that evil even to prevent a greater evil. You cannot do the "lesser evil".
...Cite Pope Leo XIII on this point instead of paraphrasing. I've seen repeated anecdotal references but never an actual citation. As for Pius XI, there's no reference to who the alternate candidate was. Again, citation please. ...I second that request.
Sure it was God's will in the end, just like the consequences of any error or sin. So, for instance, if a man murders someone, it was God's will that the victim die that day, even if it wasn't God's will that the perpetrator commit that sin.Fine, I agree with most of this except that the word “betrayal” has a connotation of evil intent. I think better words you could have used would be: horrible, stupid, or even incompetent. Now I will stop the derailment.
Pius XI, like Benedict XV before him and Pius XII after him, was a diplomat and was too ready making deals with the enemies of the Church. Regardless of his intentions, this was an objective betrayal. It goes without saying that only God can judge his intentions.
Benedict XV through Pius XII, unlike St. Pius X, were constantly extending olive branches to the enemies of the Church, both political and theological, and this all lead up to Vatican II.
No, the expression that's faulty is "lesser of two evils" ... that is not Catholic and is equivalent to "end justifies the means". It's Catholic moral theology 101. You cannot do an evil even to prevent a much greater evil. One can vote for the less defective candidate based on double effect. Cite Pope Leo XIII on this point instead of paraphrasing. I've seen repeated anecdotal references but never an actual citation. As for Pius XI, there's no reference to who the alternate candidate was. Again, citation please. Frankly, had I been a German, I might have voted Hitler at the time, since his platform was one of nationalism more than anything else. Pius XI was also the man who betrayed the Cristeros.I agree with this.
If you want to vote for Trump, it can be done, but please use Catholic language and rephrase it as an exercise in double effect. Constantly using the utilitarian "lesser of two evils" phrase can be pernicious. It's the same reasoning which would have some people think it's OK to kill a couple innocent people in order to save millions. There was a TV show some years ago in which a terrorist threatened to unleash a nuclear weapon on a city if the U.S. agent did not kill another agent (who was innocent) ... because that agent was getting too close to finding him. So the guy did it. Too man Catholics might start reasoning that this would be OK and start warping their Catholic sense for moral theology. It's not any kind of dilemma. You are not permitted to take that single innocent life even if it's to potentially save millions. You cannot perpetrate that evil even to prevent a greater evil. You cannot do the "lesser evil".
I agree with QvD. The prudence of Pius XI in handling the cristeros situation can be debated. But Catholicism, unlike Mohammedism is not a political movement. There is no divine mandate to fight for and establish Catholic states. Obviously Catholic government is desirable but it isn’t absolutely necessary. If it comes at the expense of souls then its value is greatly mitigated. A pope has to weigh all these things and then decide on the best way forward. Sometimes mistakes are made. That doesn’t mean the pope was vicious or malicious.
No one is accusing him of having been malicious. But it's quite clear that the Popes after St. Pius X were softer on Modernism, trying to make peace with the enemies of the Church, and this had devastating consequences.Using the word “betrayed” implies malice by definition. In the context its meaning is “to deliver to an enemy by treachery”. QvD objected to that word and I agree with him. Pius XI did not betray the Cristeros. I would agree with those who argue that it probably would have worked out better if they had been permitted to fight on. But given they didn’t have much support from the bishops, Pius XI didn’t see how the fight was going to result in anything good for souls. Go ahead and debate that decision but don’t say that he betrayed the Cristeros.
Terrible mistakes were made. And Pius XII even made terrible doctrinal mistakes, like opening the door to evolution and to natural birth control. He also appointed all the Modernist/heretical bishops who would later bring us Vatican II.
Stalin actually banned abortions in 1933.source please
He can't help but be part of it. You don't get to play unless you have some skin in the game. Nice story though. Mussolini might have walked an old lady across the street after he ran over and killed a young girl. Hitler might have saved kittens. But Stalin! Stalin actually banned abortions in 1933. I take great comfort knowing most of today's trad Catholic scene would vote for Stalin in an instant if he were "running" for office today.If Stalin were running against Stalin-Except-In-Favour-Of-Abortions, then yes. And by not voting, all you'd achieve is helping millions of lives be slaughtered.
Congratulations, you've been played.
source please
If Stalin were running against Stalin-Except-In-Favour-Of-Abortions, then yes. And by not voting, all you'd achieve is helping millions of lives be slaughtered.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1936/revbet/ch07.htm (https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1936/revbet/ch07.htm)Fr. Ripperger quoted this in his talk "Feminism: Women & the Natural Order (https://youtu.be/9e7slbAugBQ)".
source please
I misremembered, it was in 1936. Here you go:Interesting.
https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/family-laws-1936 (https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/family-laws-1936#:~:text=FAMILY%20LAWS%20OF%201936%20In%201936%2C%20the%20Soviet,1936%2C%20however%2C%20the%20Central%20Executive%20Committee%20outlawed%20abortion.)
In 1936, however, the Central Executive Committee outlawed abortion. … The criminalization of abortion reflected growing anxiety among health workers, managers, and state officials over the rising number of abortions, the falling birth rate, the shortage of labor, and the possibility of war.These are most Republicans' reasons, too. They're good reasons, but certainly not the most important ones.
Interesting.These are most Republicans' reasons, too. They're good reasons, but certainly not the most important ones.
I misremembered, it was in 1936. Here you go:And all you get for your grandstand is... millions of abortions. Congrats.
https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/family-laws-1936#:~:text=FAMILY%20LAWS%20OF%201936%20In%201936%2C%20the%20Soviet,1936%2C%20however%2C%20the%20Central%20Executive%20Committee%20outlawed%20abortion. (https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/family-laws-1936#:~:text=FAMILY%20LAWS%20OF%201936%20In%201936%2C%20the%20Soviet,1936%2C%20however%2C%20the%20Central%20Executive%20Committee%20outlawed%20abortion.)
Okay, so Stalin verses Trotsky.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1936/revbet/ch07.htm (https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1936/revbet/ch07.htm)
Since there's no way to keep two demoniacs from killing millions of people, we need to put our signature on one of them. How about no?
And all you get for your grandstand is... millions of abortions. Congrats.
Tell me oh great voter!
Don't ever promote Trump like he's some kind of savior.
It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in princes.It doesn't say: "Don't trust princes."
Her Triumph will not be at a ballot box.How do you know?
2643. The Duty of Exercising the Electoral Franchise.—(a) There is a grave duty of using the privilege granted to citizens of voting in public elections, and especially primaries; for the welfare of the community and the moral, intellectual and physical good of individuals depend on the kind of men who are nominated or chosen to rule, and on the ticket platforms voted for. Hence, those who neglect to vote coöperate negatively with a serious harm (viz., evil in power), or at least with public unconcern about public matters—for example, those who neglect through laziness or indifference to condemn by their vote. A grave inconvenience (e.g., sickness, ostracism, exile, persecution), but not a slight inconvenience (such as loss of time, trouble, ridicule), excuses from the duty; for an affirmative law has exceptions. Neither is there an obligation to vote when an election is a mere formality, as when there is but one candidate or party.
(b) The duty is not one of commutative justice, as the ballot is either a privilege, or a thing commanded by authority, but not a service to which the citizen has bound himself by contract or office. The obligation is, therefore, one of legal justice, arising from the fact that the common weal is everybody's business and responsibility, especially in a republic. Hence, representatives of the people who by abstention from voting cause a serious damage which they were bound ex officio to prevent, are guilty of commutative injustice and are held to restitution; but a citizen who stays away from the polls sins, and perhaps gravely, against legal justice, though there is no duty of restitution for the damages that result. Moreover, in a general election the vote of one citizen is usually not of decisive influence, and citizens do not make themselves responsible for all the acts of their representatives.
2644. Manner of Voting.—(a) Object.—It is not necessary to vote for the best candidate, provided one votes for a person who is fitted by character, ability, record, experience, etc. for the office, and gives indications, not merely promises, that he will serve the community well. But in certain ecclesiastical elections the voters must take oath beforehand to vote, not only for a worthy candidate, but also for the person whom they honestly think, all things considered, most worthy. In minor offices (such as constable or town clerk) it suffices that the candidate be known as conscientious; but in major offices (such as President, governor, congressman, legislator, or judge) the party principles for which he stands have to be considered chiefly. Per accidens, it is lawful to vote for an unworthy candidate when this is necessary to prevent a greater evil, as when the opposing candidate is much worse, or a good ticket cannot be elected unless some less worthy candidates are included.
(b) Purpose.—The end which the voter should have in mind is the good of the public, and hence it is not right to vote for candidates solely or chiefly because they are personal friends, members of one's own race, organization or religion, or because one wishes to gain favor or escape enmity.
(c) Circuмstances.—The voter must avoid all that is contrary to natural law (e.g., selling of votes, repeating, stuffing ballot boxes) or positive law (e.g., state laws require not only citizenship and a period of previous residence, but also other conditions such as registration and freedom from bribery and other election crimes). The opinion that politics is necessarily corrupt, and that all is fair that helps to win, is a false and pernicious doctrine. The conditions for ecclesiastical elections are given in Canons 160 sqq.
4. CONDITIONS UNDER WHICH ONE MAY VOTE FOR UNWORTHY CANDIDATES
By the term “unworthy candidates” we do not necessarily mean men whose private lives are morally reprehensible, but those who, if elected, would cause grave injury to the state or to religion, as for example, men of vacillating temperament who fear to make decisions.
In practical life it is often difficult to determine whether a particular candidate is worthy or unworthy because there seems little upon which to judge accurately, especially in local or municipal elections. It does not follow that every Catholic is necessarily the best man for office and that every non-Catholic is not; nor that every Catholic will promote the interests of the common good of the state and of religion and that the non-Catholic will not. Even if a man is of sterling character in his private life, he will not by necessity prove competent in public office. Sometimes too, as St. Robert Bellarmine pointed out in his De laicis [c. 4, p. 7] the so-called evil rulers may do more good than harm, as Saul and Solomon. It is better for the state to have an evil ruler than no ruler at all, for where there is no ruler the state cannot long endure, as the wise Solomon observed: “Where there is no governor the people will fail” [Prov. 11:14].
When unworthy candidates are running for office, ordinarily a citizen does not have the obligation of voting for them. Indeed he would not be permitted to vote for them if there were any reasonable way of electing a worthy man, either by organizing another party, by using the “write in” method, or by any other lawful means. On the other hand, it would be licit to vote for an unworthy man if the choice were only between or among unworthy candidates; and it might even be necessary to vote for such an unworthy candidate (if the voting were limited to such personalities) and even for one who would render harm to the Church, provided the election were only a choice from among unworthy men and the voting for the less unworthy would prevent the election of another more unworthy.
Since the act of voting is good, it is lawful to vote for an unworthy candidate provided there is a proportionate cause for the evil done and the good lost. This consideration looks simply to the act of voting in itself and does not consider other factors such as scandal, encouragement of unworthy men, and a bad influence upon other voters. Obviously, if any or all of these other factors are present, the excusing cause for voting for an unworthy candidate would have to be proportionately graver [“Nearly all modern theologians admit that to elect a man whom one considers evil is not an intrinsically evil thing, and therefore it may sometimes per accidens be permitted in order to avert greater evils.” Prümmer, Manuale theologiæ moralis (https://isidore.co/calibre/#panel=book_details&book_id=7244), 2, 604].
Lehmkuhl says that it is never allowed to vote absolutely for a man of evil principles, but hypothetice it may be allowed if the election is between men of evil principles. Then one should vote for him who is less evil (1) if he makes known the reason for his choice; (2) if the election is necessary to exclude a worse candidate [Compendium, 343]. The same author in his Casus conscientiae lists the general argument, adding that there must be no approbation of the unworthy man or of his programme [1, 729].
Tanquerey declares that if the vote is between a socialist and another liberal, the citizen may vote for the less evil, but he should publicly declare why he is voting this way, to avoid any scandalum pusillorum [i.e. to avoid scandalizing those weaker in Faith] [Synposis theologiae moralis et pastoralis, 3, 981]. Prümmer says the same [Manuale theologiæ moralis (https://isidore.co/calibre/#panel=book_details&book_id=7244), 2, 604]. Actually, however, in the United States and in other countries where the balloting is secret, there seems to be no need of declaring one’s manner of voting.
Several authors including Ubach, Merkelbach, Iorio, Piscetta-Gennaro, and Sabetti-Barrett allow for material cooperation in the election of an unworthy candidate when there are two unworthy men running for office. Ubach adds this point: (1) There must be no cooperation in the evil which the man brings upon society after assuming office; (2) The voting must not be taken as an approval of the candidate or of his unworthiness. Merkelbach asserts that such cooperation may be licit per accidens if there is no hope that good men will be elected without voting for the bad ones in the same election.
As a practical point it may be remarked that at times a citizen may have to vote for an unworthy man in order to vote for a worthy one, e.g., when people have to vote a straight party ticket, at least in a primary election when the “split ticket” is not permitted. However the good to be gained would have to outweigh the evil to be avoided, or at least be equal to it.
In his Casus Genicot [Casus conscientiæ, 138], sets up a case of an election between a liberal and a Communist. To avoid scandal the citizen should give reasons for voting for the liberal. One does not support the evil candidate but simply applies the principle of double effect. This author also says that a person may use a mental reservation in promising to vote for an unworthy man.
Cardinal Amette, Archbishop of Paris, implies the liceity of voting for an unworthy candidate when he writes of voting for a less worthy one. “It would be lawful to cast them,” he writes,” for candidates who though not giving complete satisfaction to all our legitimate demands, would lead us to expect from them a line of conduct useful to the country, rather than to keep your votes for those whose program would indeed be more perfect, but whose almost certain defeat might open the door to the enemies of religious [sic] and of the social order” [John A. Ryan and Francis Boland, Catholic Principles of Politics (https://isidore.co/calibre/#panel=book_details&book_id=4964), 207-208].
Thus we may say that it is permitted to vote for unworthy candidates (that is, give material cooperation) if these are the only type of men on the ballot lists; in order to exclude the more unworthy; in order to secure the election of one who is somewhat unworthy instead of voting for a good man whose defeat is certain; and when the list is mixed containing both worthy and unworthy men, so that a citizen can vote for the former only by voting for the latter at the same time.
Leo XIII and Pius XI, antipopes.Sorry, what?? :confused:
Sorry, what?? :confused:That was a joke. However I do think it would be more fitting if there were more sede-whatevers out there who considered Benedict XV, Pius XI, and Pius XII to be anti-popes, especially Pius XII.
That was a joke. However I do think it would be more fitting if there were more sede-whatevers out there who considered Benedict XV, Pius XI, and Pius XII to be anti-popes, especially Pius XII.Oh, okay. But the rest of your response was so strange that I'm kind of at a loss for what to respond.
It doesn't say: "Don't trust princes."
I don't think anyone here considers Trump a savior; there is only one Savior.
How do you know?
Is voting idolatry? the same as offering a grain of incense to false gods?
there are literally no "good" options, only the lesser evils. We have now finally come to the moment when transsɛҳuąƖ rights are to be considered the "lesser evil." I don't want to have anything to do with that.Either way, you already have. Aren't citizens (even righteous ones) in some way responsible for their country's sins?
Either way, you already have. Aren't citizens (even righteous ones) in some way responsible for their country's sins?
So if I'm guilty already, why not wallow in it? No. We do not share the responsibility for the nation's sins if we do not partake in them but we do bear the consequences due from them just the same. Hence, our current state. Hence, why true Catholic leaders are so important because without them there is nothing save Our Lady herself that will keep the punishments of God from scourging the Earth, both the good and the evil. We've become far too comfortable and too content to vote for someone else's party. Our enemies know it and have taken full advantage of it..
Make the Catholic vote a lot tougher to earn.
And for your hard-earned single-issue vote, you get the feast of heretics: one truth mixed with a multitude of lies. This is why even trads can be corralled and swayed by the pillow talk of politicians.Excellent post. I am starting to promote a write-in for "Christ the King".
A double-effect in regards to the President overturning Abortion is incredibly weak and removed by several levels of bureaucracy and corruption in this country. Now that we have seen what a majority conservative "Supreme" Court does with tranny normalization, Roe v. Wade might as well be part of the original Constitution. Without a miracle of a magnitude greater than the acts of Milan and Thessalonica combined, it will not happen. This is well beyond either party at this point. You might as well get a converted Democrat as you might a Republican, because both parties have placed themselves to the far left of anything the Church stands for.
It must also be stated that without a dedication to the whole truth, the one, holy and apostolic Catholic Church, that even if one manages to remove abortion, you will immediately be confronted with those promoted and protected lifestyles so poisonous to the soul as to relegate the vast majority of these innocent lives to Hell the moment they are dragged into the age of reason by parroting their parents' evil ways. Speaking of a collective lesser evil, which is "better": a guaranteed eternity in limbo or a 99% chance of eternity in Hell? Tell me oh great voter!
Don't ever promote Trump like he's some kind of savior. This is the grisly fate that awaits all duped conservatives who think they can tap-dance with the devil. We could stop excusing notorious sinners in their sin and start glorifying God and His Church by demanding that all of His Law be supported and followed. Did Our Lady ask us to vote or to pray? Her Triumph will not be at a ballot box. Sufferage has been given over to worldy men (minority) and women (majority) of both parties to show precisely where the power of God is not.
To recap: Trump cannot repeal abortion even if he wanted to (he doesn't), Trump will absolutely continue the Satanic LGBT sɛҳuąƖ revulsion revolution, and the miracle needed for abortion to be repealed will have to be big enough to wipe the entire political spectrum down to the marrow of its kosher bones anyway. We have to promote the Church in toto, not one issue at a time.
Make the Catholic vote a lot tougher to earn.How?
Excellent post. I am starting to promote a write-in for "Christ the King".Are you a Jehovah's Witness?
We've become far too comfortable and too content to vote for someone else's party.We live in reality, not in a land of hypothetical "what if"s. Catholics are a minority in the U.S.
Our enemies know it and have taken full advantage of it.So?
How?
We live in reality, not in a land of hypothetical "what if"s. Catholics are a minority in the U.S.
So?
“One day, when my Kabbalah teacher, Eitan Yardeni, asked how I was doing, I told him I needed a break.” (Kabbalah (Hebrew: קַבָּלָה, literally "reception, tradition" Donald Trump “The Way To The Top, The Best Business Advice I Ever Received”How many times on CI is this quote going to be posted and falsely attributed to Trump? This is at least the third time I have pointed this out. Please people, before posting do a bit of research.
How many times on CI is this quote going to be posted and falsely attributed to Trump? This is at least the third time I have pointed this out. Please people, before posting do a bit of research.
And it doesn't even matter. There's no shortage of evidence that Trump is a Jєωιѕн sock puppet.
some people don't want to be willing pawns for the NWO?
13 Be ye subject therefore to every human creature for God's sake: whether it be to the king as excelling,
14 Or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of the good.
Fr. Titus Cranny, S.A. (1921-1981), The Moral Obligation of Voting (https://isidore.co/calibre/#panel=book_details&book_id=5603):The State, no matter how corrupt it may be, is still a good.Quote from: Fr. CrannyIt is better for the state to have an evil ruler than no ruler at all, for where there is no ruler the state cannot long endure, as the wise Solomon observed: "Where there is no governor the people will fail" [Prov. 11:14].
Lad, you *suspect* that and you definitely have evidence that supports you, but I contend he is being cagey. I readily admit that he believes that the “ends justify”, thus no good Catholic, without Gods intervention, could spoil the plans of the conspirators. I also believe he *naturally* has a good heart and has good intentions.
God uses imperfect and sinful people in accomplishing His will. We should all remember that we only profess the True Faith and are, hopefully, in a state of sanctifying grace because we have cooperated with God’s grace. Also, remember that we can lose that grace (and, God forbid, the Faith) at any time and be just as sinful as (and perhaps even worse than) President Trump.
I'm convinced that the elections are rigged and that our votes will never be allowed to offset the person they've already pre-selected to hold office.Even if this is true, it doesn't exempt Catholic citizens from their moral obligation to vote.
Even if this is true, it doesn't exempt Catholic citizens from their moral obligation to vote.
the very reason for said obligation (to influence the direction of the countryExample is another reason.
There is no way that you can convince me that Trump is equivalent to Biden/hαɾɾιs. It’s not even close. Therefore I will vote for Trump and I will not have even the least pang of conscience. I might be indignant that you non-voting people will enjoy the benefits of a president you did not vote for. Or I might be angry that I can’t worship in my chapel anymore because it was shut down by a national edict from Biden/hαɾɾιs who was elected because thousands of people who should know better failed to vote against him. But I will not be worried in the least that I have offended God by voting for Trump over Biden.Ditto.
Even if this is true, it doesn't exempt Catholic citizens from their moral obligation to vote.Why? A vote actually represents the person voting. Can Catholics vote for even a little ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity or Covid vaccines or perhaps a little cσncєnтrαтισn cαмρing? Our votes should not be wasted on deceptive persons promoting evil. Not even when they promote a great good, because that isn't truly good, it's a tactic.
If you don't vote at all, or vote a "write in", then you may as well vote Biden because write ins and no votes only means more votes for the guy hell bent on destroying our country.Not in my state. It's electoral votes are already going to Biden. So, whether it's a vote for Trump or a write in or no vote, the end results are the same.
There is no way that you can convince me that Trump is equivalent to Biden/hαɾɾιs. It’s not even close. Therefore I will vote for Trump and I will not have even the least pang of conscience. I might be indignant that you non-voting people will enjoy the benefits of a president you did not vote for. Or I might be angry that I can’t worship in my chapel anymore because it was shut down by a national edict from Biden/hαɾɾιs who was elected because thousands of people who should know better failed to vote against him. But I will not be worried in the least that I have offended God by voting for Trump over Biden.I don't have a problem nor think it a sin if a Catholic chooses to vote for Trump. I do have a problem when other Catholics wag their fingers at those of us who will not/considering not doing what they do.
You may not have noticed how Obama purged the military and intelligence agencies of conservatives. You may not have noticed how Obama only appointed lunatic left judges. You may not have noticed that attorneys general became Marxist persecutors under Obama. And you may not have noticed that under Obama we facilitated wars in Libya, Egypt and Syria. Despite all the Sabre-rattling, how many wars did Trump start? Zero! So he may have had limited success in getting us out of current military commitments but at least he didn’t start up new ones. If Clinton had been elected, you can bet that we’d have had troop surges in Iraq on the Syrian border if not a full invasion. How is the fact that the military brass hates Trump not prima facie evidence of his opposition to warmongering? Trump opposed transgenders in the military. Read the thread about how Trump outfoxed the Jєωs. Unlike any other Republican candidates I can remember, he is keeping his campaign promises. At least as much as his Republican confrères will support him. So there is no equivalence between Trump and Biden. A write-in will not be counted. Not voting is a failure to support a candidate who is favorable to your position. It is basically political ѕυιcιdє. I also live in a solid blue state so I sympathize with your plight but even mitigating the loss is something like a moral victory. Those SOB demonrats will not suppress my vote. I vote against them as much as I vote for Trump.So your vote won't count either (ie. it's not mitigating a loss). I might understand your position better if you lived in a swing state.
So your vote won't count either (ie. it's not mitigating a loss). I might understand your position better if you lived in a swing state.
So your vote won't count either (ie. it's not mitigating a loss). I might understand your position better if you lived in a swing state.My vote does count. In MA they count votes for everyone listed on the ballot. Write ins get grouped together in the “other” category so they don’t really count. No one knows what you wrote except you and God. So in a social context that’s a throwaway vote. You might as well not waste anyone’s time and stay home. But voting for a candidate listed on the ballot gets counted and reported publicly. So if a trend of more votes for the losing Republican gets started, that will embolden better candidates and more money to be sent in that direction. That is at least a moral victory if not a real advancement of Christian culture.
My vote does count. In MA they count votes for everyone listed on the ballot. Write ins get grouped together in the “other” category so they don’t really count. No one knows what you wrote except you and God. So in a social context that’s a throwaway vote. You might as well not waste anyone’s time and stay home. But voting for a candidate listed on the ballot gets counted and reported publicly. So if a trend of more votes for the losing Republican gets started, that will embolden better candidates and more money to be sent in that direction. That is at least a moral victory if not a real advancement of Christian culture.Quite honestly, I think you're living in a dream world. Sorry CM. I typically agree with you about other things.
Quite honestly, I think you're living in a dream world. Sorry CM. I typically agree with you about other things.
I tend to believe that a vote for Christ, even if it doesn't get "counted" by the world, is not a waste of time and more apt to make a difference than another vote that partakes in The Game. I wonder how long Catholics will continue to take part in The Game.
I agree that you aren’t committing mortal sin by not voting for him, but I think you are mistaken. Humanly speaking, he is our only shot right now.I disagree. I think not voting IS a vote for Biden, a patsy and a retard who will kill MORE babies, expose MORE children to pedophiles, give MORE rights to sodomites, cause MORE wars and sell us out MORE quickly to the NWO and their BS "virus" and the coming death serum in their attempt to mandate we all get VAXXED. And as much as a disaster creepy "uncle Joe" would be, that's just the start of it, because his ass isn't going to be around long and Congo-mala will take over and SHE WILL declare open genocide on whites and Christians, most of whom will not go along with the program of global enslavement.
I think not voting IS a vote for Biden, a patsy and a retard who will kill MORE babies, expose MORE children to pedophiles, give MORE rights to sodomites, cause MORE wars and sell us out MORE quickly to the NWO and their BS "virus" and the coming death serum in their attempt to mandate we all get VAXXED.
Based on this thread here:There can be legitimate reasons for not voting for Trump, but this isn't one of them. The increase in Planned Parenthood funding is due to Medicaid reimbursement for health services. PP already left Title X funding and it's not like the number of live abortions or abortion rate is rising, though the fall predates Trump.
https://www.cathinfo.com/politics-and-world-leaders/pp-gets-more-$$-under-trump-admin-than-ever-b4/
I now hold that it would be a grave sin to vote for Trump.
Trump administration has not only continued to fund Planned Parenthood, but increased the spending by a record amount.
Double effect vis-a-vis abortion no longer applies. Voting for Trump means voting for Planned Parenthood funding. You cannot commit one murder even to prevent millions of other murders. Consequently, this fails the proportionality condition of double effect. With sodomy, one could make the case that the evil of abortion far outweighed the evil of sodomy (though some might disagree) and so was an acceptable secondary effect. $616 million given to Planned Parenthood is utterly unacceptable and under no circuмstances can a Catholic vote for Donald J. Trump.
So much for the "most Pro Life president ever".
The increase in Planned Parenthood funding is due to Medicaid reimbursement for health services.Thank you for providing specific facts to an otherwise overly-general topic.
Republicans printing up more debt. Voting on the Corona Virus bill soon. I can hear people say "Well, at least Democrats want 3 trillion compared to Republican 300 billion, that's why I'm voting for Trump."I don’t like this anymore than anyone else, but at this point in time, the US is between a rock and a hard place, economically. 1) The dollar is cooked. The fiat game is over, so printing must continue until it’s time for hyper inflation and a new currency reset. It can’t be avoided, it’s just a matter of when.
There can be legitimate reasons for not voting for Trump, but this isn't one of them. The increase in Planned Parenthood funding is due to Medicaid reimbursement for health services. PP already left Title X funding and it's not like the number of live abortions or abortion rate is rising, though the fall predates Trump.
False reasoning. Trump is responsible for these abortions by signing the budgets. He can also attempt to use Execute Orders to put an end to these. One cannot commit even a single murder in order to prevent many more murders. Voting for Trump is voting for murder. This fails the double effect test.I think its a stretch to say people who vote for Trump in spite of his weaker position on abortion are voting *for* abortion.
He can also attempt to use Execute Orders to put an end to these.You obviously have no idea how a republic form of govt works. Budgets are part of the LEGISLATIVE branch. An EXECUTIVE order cannot overrule legislation but only affect EXECUTIVE POLICIES when a law gives an EXECUTIVE agency power to make decisions. You’re making this out to be less complex than it is.
False reasoning. Trump is responsible for these abortions by signing the budgets. He can also attempt to use Execute Orders to put an end to these. One cannot commit even a single murder in order to prevent many more murders. Voting for Trump is voting for murder. This fails the double effect test.He did. Many times. Here's just one example, but if you look up "Trump Planned Parenthood" you'll find dozens more:
You obviously have no idea how a republic form of govt works. Budgets are part of the LEGISLATIVE branch. An EXECUTIVE order cannot overrule legislation but only affect EXECUTIVE POLICIES when a law gives an EXECUTIVE agency power to make decisions. You’re making this out to be less complex than it is.
Trump was required to VETO any budget that contained funding for Planned Parenthood ... and force them to override it if possible.Since Trump isn’t Catholic, and neither is most of Congress, nor most of those in our govt, and neither is our country catholic then your expectations don’t fit reality.
Yes, he's done some things, but it's not enough. There can be no double effect justification for voting Trump.Oh Don't worry, Biden/hαɾɾιs will do plenty. like turn this country into a anti-Christian, anti-white, anti-business, anti-freedom, third world, commie banana-republic sh*thole that will ship people like you to the gulags that much faster than if the orangeman had won. So while your in your graysuit with the little red star on your cap waiting for "re-education", you can wax eloquently about how you stayed out of the election because of "double-effect" justification.Not that your captors will really give a crap about you and your scruples. you will either bend a knee to them or your a dead man, it's that simple.
Oh Don't worry, Biden/hαɾɾιs will do plenty. like turn this country into a anti-Christian, anti-white, anti-business, anti-freedom, third world, commie banana-republic sh*thole that will ship people like you to the gulags that much faster than if the orangeman had won. So while your in your graysuit with the little red star on your cap waiting for "re-education", you can wax eloquently about how you stayed out of the election because of "double-effect" justification.Not that your captors will really give a crap about you and your scruples. you will either bend a knee to them or your a dead man, it's that simple.
I don't know how many times I have to say it. WE ARE IN A WAR. And you have to CHOOSE a side. Not choosing is in effect allowing one side or the other an advantage and that will indeed have an EFFECT. Sadly, the Left is Right when they are demanding people show support or recognition for their cause. THEY do no give you an OPTION. And THEY will not after the election, THEY will make you submit or else. At least with the orange man you will have a fighting chance, even if it's for a short time or we can gather up within 4 years and send a serious Catholic candidate in 2024. But until then, you have only two options;a complete Jєω-controlled commie/useful goyim takeover relinquishing your national sovereignty and inalienable rights submitting to a elitist, globalist entity or a Jєω controlled capitalist/zionist who will at least allow us some sense of normalcy and freedom and who has given at least on the appearance a voice to the Christian/Catholic worldview and agenda.
I really believe God's hand is in all this. All this had to happen. these radicals and globalists have been lurking and operating in the shadows for years, quietly implementing their agenda. But they have recently come out more brazen and embolden out of desperation because of the success of the DT, Putin and other countries putting their interests first and now they have thrown caution to the wind with "Covid" and their attempted global commie coup and America is ground zero in this battle.
If they can take us down with this election, it's over. At least for awhile until we can have true global resistance.
This election is that important.
What do you mean "turn?"Do I really have to explain this to you?
Aren't we simply gasping for air before the persecution gets worse?Maybe you are, some people are actually trying to do something about it except just sit back and accept the inevitable.
Then you say "faster," which is closer to what could happen. If it were faster we might resist more.I don't let the enemy get an advantage and get right on top of me before I actually decide to do something about it.
As they say, "The slow pace wins the race."I believe the saying is "Slow and STEADY wins the race". that might work in a marathon, not in a 100 yd dash.
. But please, let's stop pretending they'd ever let a President come to power who would (or could without the other branches) ever seriously challenge abortion.Yea, well, for now, we'll take what we can get until do have a leader who will end abortion. This president, at in least IMO, has done or attempted more than any other up to this point to even try and take on infanticide. He certainly does more than the majority of "catholics" and the heirarchy in Rome, including the one in the Chair who won't even judge fαɢɢօts and protects child-rapists and kiddie diddlers. You know what, I think even the trads on here should concentrate on what their own Church is doing about all the fαɢɢօtry and pederasty going on in the Church before they try holding U.S. Presidents and politicians up to their standards that even a fraction of their own clergy could/do live up to. Stop trying to elect the next leader of this country saint/bishop/pope. It's not happening.
If you truly believe we are at war, you better pick the only side worth fighting for.I did .
Not for an artificial 2-party system of crowd control.Uh, have you not notices in the past 4 yrs how much Trump is bascially NOT part of the two-party system?
You fight for Trump, you fight on his terms with his rhetoric and his memes, and it's misguided to believe the Church benefits from it.I fight for the Truth, it matters not who's holding the banner to me. God is no respecter of persons, rich or poor.
And God will be the judge on who was just using rhetorical slogans and twitter memes to get elected. God looks into the heart of every man and determines his worth. And God is not deceived or mocked, we will reap what we sow with this election and every man will be accountable for his actions and decisions concerning as such. I have no problem supporting Trump at this point. We have to do everything possible to stop this demonic , Godless, Bolshevik communism and globalism from enslaving all of us and I believe DT gives us the best chance for now. And I will cast that vote before God and man.And those of us who end up deciding to do differently will feel the same way about their consciences. If you truly believe that it is up to God to judge, then perhaps you should stop wagging your finger at those who think differently than you about this election. But I fully expect that, if Trump loses the election, you and those like you will blame the rest for not voting for him.
And my conscious is clear.
Not voting is a vote for Biden. It should not be an option. Catholics must turn out to vote Trump in 2020. When a critical mass of judges have been appointed, the tide will turn on abortion and the other issues. Ave Maria was sung at the White House the other day. President Trump is the First President to personally address the March for Life, with VP Mike Pence joining in from the Vatican. President Trump's administration has been pro-life, pro-Christian, even pro-Catholic. President Trump richly deserves 4 more years. With the radical left supporting looting and rioting, it becomes even more of an obligation to support President Trump to avoid utter destruction.Let's say Trump is elected and very little changes in the next 4 years (again). Then what?
And those of us who end up deciding to do differently will feel the same way about their consciences. If you truly believe that it is up to God to judge, then perhaps you should stop wagging your finger at those who think differently than you about this election. But I fully expect that, if Trump loses the election, you and those like you will blame the rest for not voting for him.Yes I will.
Let's say Trump is elected and very little changes in the next 4 years (again). Then what?At least it's not biden and the commies.
Yes I will.Well, at least you're an honest hypocrite.
Well, at least you're an honest hypocrite.Nah, I'm just honest.
Let's say Trump is elected and very little changes in the next 4 years (again). Then what?
What are you, a prophet?You don't need to be a prophet to predict that. Communism always brings famine with it. Look at the Ukraine under Stalin and Venezuela today.
This WILL LITERALLY DECIDE THE FATE OF THE ELECTION.I don't know jose, the commies are pulling out all the stops, overtly and blatantly cheating right out in the open - I would love to see them lose by a landslide, but I just don't know. I never thought Obama would ever get elected the first time and was even more positive that he would not get elected the second time.
Literally for sure. It is not unlikely that the winner of the election itself will be determined by the SCOTUS.
Do all the naysayers or those who will "sit this one out" still believe that voting for Trump is "mortal sin" and an exercise in futility? Do you still believe that not voting for this president intends to replace the old Jєωess, pro-infanticide, pro-sodomy hag who just kicked the bucket with an authentic CATHOLIC MOTHER OF 7, conservative and pro-life candidate?I'm voting for Trump, but I understand why some people might not want to. But the accusation of mortal sin is ridiculous, on either side.
Do you still want to "stay home" and allow the apostate Biden and Killer Kamala in the WH?
Because they will proceed to attack Catholics and Christians in America right after the election, I guarantee it.
Just sit back and watch them attack this nice pro-life, multi-racial Catholic family in these proceedings. This is just a glimpse, they will obviously show their hand and intentions of just what exactly they're capable of once they take office. It will be nothing short of a FATWA against Catholics and Christians in general. Sad par is, a lot of the hierarchy of the Church of Rome is on their side.But, I believe, judgment is coming for them as well.
Donald Trump and the Republicans allowed the Ave Maria to be sung at the RNC. And now, a pro-life, Catholic Mother is being nominated for the most pivotal position in American history. This WILL LITERALLY DECIDE THE FATE OF THE ELECTION.
DT and the Catholics in America have implored Our Lady for assistance. And Our Lady of the Americas, the protector of the unborn HAS ANSWERED. If this is the truth, the commie dems and Jєω revolutionaries have no idea what their up against.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/trump-officially-announces-his-third-scotus-nominee?utm_source=featured&utm_campaign=standard
BREAKING: Trump nominates Catholic mom of 7 Judge Amy Coney Barrett to Supreme Court
The late Justice Antonin Scalia’s 'judicial philosophy is mine, too,' Barrett said.
Sat Sep 26, 2020 - 5:04 pm EST
- (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/trump-officially-announces-his-third-scotus-nominee?utm_source=featured&utm_campaign=standard#)
Correct. They wanted Tɾυmρ in there.Lad, my apologies. I believe you are correct with your assessment here. I believe he was an unwilling participant. A stooge. I still don’t think he was part of it (although I’m open to the possibility). He was just the right person for the right time. Don’t forget he did a masterful job in promoting LBGTZQXCTS.... things.
Imagine if we had Hillary in there during the CÖVÌD scam. Most Republicans would not have gone along with it. Also, having Tɾυmρ in there helped fuel the race riots.
Building a decent chicken run is going to be much more practically useful for my family's survival than spending the same hours following the play-by-play of American political theater.Truer words never spoken.
Let's put it this way: Tɾυmρ does NOT have my vote. I'm back to giving up on American politics, taking care of me and mine, preparing for whatever hell-on-earth the bad guys have planned for us.Exactly!
Building a decent chicken run is going to be much more practically useful for my family's survival than spending the same hours following the play-by-play of American political theater.