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Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: SeanJohnson on August 21, 2020, 05:14:56 PM

Title: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 21, 2020, 05:14:56 PM
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/trump-my-great-honor-to-be-called-the-the-most-pro-gay-president-in-american-history (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/trump-my-great-honor-to-be-called-the-the-most-pro-gay-president-in-american-history)


Trump: ‘My great honor’ to be called the ‘the most pro-gay president in American history’
President Trump has given it a pro-LGBT ad from the Log Cabin Republicans his personal stamp of approval.
Thu Aug 20, 2020 - 4:33 pm EST
  • (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/trump-my-great-honor-to-be-called-the-the-most-pro-gay-president-in-american-history#)
  • (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/trump-my-great-honor-to-be-called-the-the-most-pro-gay-president-in-american-history#)


(https://assets.lifesitenews.com/images/made/images/remote/https_www.lifesitenews.com/images/local/grenell_and_trump_480_296_75_c1.jpg)Richard Grenell and President TrumpRichardGrenell | Twitter
(https://assets.lifesitenews.com/images/made/images/remote/https_www.lifesitenews.com/images/local/Doug_Mainwaring_Photo_1_70_70_75gray_s_c1.jpg)By Doug Mainwaring
FOLLOW DOUG (https://www.lifesitenews.com/ajax/author-profile/doug-mainwaring)
 

PETITION: Tell Trump Christians can’t accept SCOTUS ruling imposing LGBT ideology! Sign the petition here. (https://lifepetitions.com/petition/tell-trump-christians-can-t-accept-scotus-ruling-imposing-lgbt-ideology)
ANALYSIS
WASHINGTON, D.C., August 20, 2020 (LifeSiteNews (http://www.lifesitenews.com/)) – President Donald Trump has embraced the message that he is “the most pro-gay president in American history,” after his former acting Director of National Intelligence (DNI) and Ambassador to Germany, self-identified homosexual Richard Grenell, made the claim in a viral new video ad (https://twitter.com/LogCabinGOP/status/1296039209891819520). 

Moreover, Grenell has just been tapped by the Republican National Committee (RNC) to serve as a senior adviser focused on outreach to LGBT voters, according to a Fox News report (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ric-grenell-joins-rnc-lgbt-voter-outreach).  
“My great honor!!!” exclaimed the President, reweeting Grenell’s declaration that “President Trump is the most pro-gay president in American history.” 

Views of the video – which had already quickly gone viral – accelerated, topping 4 million in less than 30 hours and still going strong.   
Initially it was unclear if the ad, sponsored by the pro-LGBT Log Cabin Republicans, had been approved by the Trump campaign. But now the president himself has given it his personal stamp of approval.
Trump’s very public affirmation of Grenell’s message combined with the RNC’s official creation of an outreach aimed at LGBT voters spearheaded by Grenell creates a conundrum for many conservative religious voters. Such voters have wholeheartedly praised the president for his many actions to protect the life of the unborn and defend religious liberty, but they reject the normalization of homosexuality in American culture.   
The progressive LGBT political machine, which previously has been a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Democratic Party, has, along with the abortion industry, proven to be the greatest threat to religious liberty this nation has known in recent decades.   
Wedding cake bakers (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/baker-says-hed-rather-go-to-jail-after-judge-orders-him-to-bake-cakes-for-g), photographers (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/photographers-guilty-of-discrimination-for-refusing-to-shoot-same-sex-weddi), florists (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/elderly-christian-florist-faces-thousands-in-fines-for-refusing-to-provide), and many others can attest to that. 
The presence of LGBT political heft within the Republican Party may lead to a weakening (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/conservatives-worry-about-trump-caving-to-lbgt-pressure-on-religious-libert) of religious liberty while further normalizing homosexuality, same-sex marriage, and transgenderism – a direct affront to Christianity and other religions.      
Grenell: ‘I can prove it’  
“President Trump is the most pro-gay president in American history,” said Grenell at the outset of his video ad. 
“I can prove it,” he added. Grenell then goes on to list how Trump is the “strongest ally that gay Americans have ever had in the White House,” substantiating, in effect, that Trump policy when it comes to marriage and sexuality differs from that of Christianity. 
In the ad, Grenell slams Democrat presidential candidate Joe Biden’s 40-year track record on gay issues while touting Trump’s record, both official and implied.  
“President Trump has done more to advance the rights of gays and lesbians in three years than Joe Biden did in 40-plus years in Washington,” Grenell said.  
“I know firsthand that President Trump is the strongest ally that gay Americans have ever had in the White House,” the former head cabinet member said.   
“Donald Trump is the first president in American history to be pro-gay marriage from his first day in office,” Grenell declared. “President Trump knew I was gay when he appointed me to one of the most prestigious and powerful ambassadorships in the world.” 
Grenell is a self-proclaimed conservative, Christian, pro-life, gay man who has often been the target of harsh criticism from LGBT commentators and mainstream media because of his beliefs. He has also proved to be one of President Trump’s most potent (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/richard-grenell-delivers-satchel-of-documents-to-doj-that-shatter-schiff-collusion-claims-report), trusted allies. Progressives generally dislike him and conservatives generally admire him.
Log Cabin Republicans say (http://www.logcabin.org/about-us/)s its purpose is to “to make the Republican Party more inclusive, particularly on LGBT issues,” which conservatives generally take to mean diluting and eventually eliminating the GOP’s traditional conservative stances on marriage, homosexuality, and transgender ideology. As such, the group is more aptly described as “Libertarian” rather than “Conservative.”
The organization challenged the military’s “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy against open homosexuality in the military and lobbied Republican lawmakers to vote to repeal the policy. It also welcomed the Supreme Court’s 2015 Obergefell v. Hodges decision instituting same-sex “marriage” across the United States.
In the just-released video, Grenell aligns himself with Log Cabin’s views, blasting Biden, who as a U.S. Senator supported “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” and the “Defense of Marriage Act.” Biden was also “against marriage equality.”
President Trump had previously indicated that he is “fine (https://www.cnn.com/2016/11/14/politics/trump-gay-marriage-abortion-supreme-court/index.html)” with the Supreme Court’s opinion legalizing same-sex “marriage,” calling the matter “settled.”
Trump advisory board member Steve Mosher, an acclaimed author, speaker, and founder and head of the Population Research Institute (https://www.pop.org/), told LifeSiteNews that, overall, Trump is taking bold stands on the culture wars front.   
“On the culture wars front, Trump has probably done more than any president since Calvin Coolidge,” he said. 
“He has opposed abortion on demand more openly and consistently than any prior president. And then there are the sheer number of judges, which eclipses the record of any prior president in a single term,” Mosher continued in a statement to LifeSiteNews. 
“On the transgender front, since April 12, 2019, transgenders are not allowed to serve or enlist in the United States military. As far as the rest of the almost infinite number of aberrations found in our sex-crazed society, most cannot be solved by policies or presidents,” Mosher observed.
“So the glass is pretty full, in my view,” he added. “We must not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.”
Despite Grenell’s claims that Trump is more pro-gay than Biden, the Democrats’ 2020 platform (https://www.demconvention.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020-07-31-Democratic-Party-Platform-For-Distribution.pdf)promises, among other things, to enact the far-left so-called Equality Act; guarantee boys can enter girls’ bathrooms and vice versa; and “ban harmful ‘conversion therapy’ practices.” It says “medically accurate, LGBTQ+ inclusive, age-appropriate sex education” is “essential” and boasts that Democrats “will work to ensure LGBTQ+ people are not discriminated against when seeking to adopt or foster children.” 
Full transcript of the Grenell/Log Cabin Republicans video:
Quote
President Trump is the most pro-gay president in American history. I can prove it.  
My name is Ric Grenell. I’m America’s first openly gay cabinet member. 

As a United States senator, Joe Biden said gay people couldn’t receive security clearances because we would be a security risk. 
Joe must have been terrified when Donald Trump appointed me as Acting Director of National Intelligence. 
The fact that I’m gay didn’t even faze Donald Trump. 
Joe Biden certainly didn’t congratulate the appointment or even acknowledge it. 
But his silence was deafening.  
President Trump has done more to advance the rights of gays and lesbians in three years than Joe Biden did in forty plus years in Washington. 
For four decades, Joe Biden has attacked the LGBT community.
As a U.S. senator, Biden supported “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” and the “Defense of Marriage Act.”
Biden voted to cut off federal funds to any school that teaches acceptance of homosexuality. Biden said again and again that he was against marriage equality.
[Biden video clip]
And now, well, now that we’ve made progress, Joe Biden has changed his mind.
I know firsthand that President Trump is the strongest ally that gay Americans have ever had in the White House.  
Donald Trump is the first president in American history to be pro-gay marriage from his first day in office.  
President Trump knew I was gay when he appointed me to one of the most prestigious and powerful ambassadorships in the world. 
As Ambassador to Germany, President Trump fully supported our fight to crush the homophobic and barbaric Islamic terrorist organization, Hezbollah, and the Iranian regime that supports them. 
While President Trump was denying the homophobic regime money, the Obama-Biden team was giving them billions of dollars.
Joe Biden not only admits it, he says he’ll do it again if elected president. 
[Biden video clip]
President Trump began a historic campaign to decriminalize homosexuality around the globe at the United Nations, where he publicly challenged the 69 countries who make being gay a crime to change their laws. 
[Trump video clip]
Gays and lesbians can be put to death in 9 countries just for being who we are. 
So why did Joe Biden fail to make this issue a priority in his more than 40 years in Washington?  
He’s never answered this question. 
This is why I believe we need President Trump in office for another 4 years. And I’m certainly not the only one.  
There are millions of patriotic gay Americans who are sick of being told to “sit down and shut up” by those who want to control us; Those who are afraid of our voice; Those who want to keep equality a partisan issue.
They tell us our opinions don't’ matter because we don’t subscribe to their ‘group think.’ They try and bully us into silence.
But in my experience, proud gay people don’t like to be silent. They like to be loud.
Yesterday’s champions of diversity are today’s intolerance. 
Well I love this country and I’m not going to be silent.  
There are tens of thousands of gay conservatives just like me who also won’t be silent. 
Gay people don’t have to vote Democrat, because Donald Trump is the most pro-gay president in American history.  
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: forlorn on August 21, 2020, 05:17:49 PM
Ugh, I just finished defending the Trump Admin in another thread and then this happens. 
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Matthew on August 21, 2020, 05:21:06 PM
First Pence blasts Q as a "conspiracy theory" (he actually used that term! educated Catholics will understand the grave and deep significance of using that term*)

God is trying to tell me something. I guess I have another 20 min. of free time this November 3rd.



*According to Zero Hedge (https://www.bing.com/search?q=Zero+Hedge&filters=sid%3a3d8be68c-436f-3d7d-ac90-88ac76c5fd2b&form=ENTLNK), the term Conspiracy Theory was created by the CIA in 1967 as a way to discredit anyone who dared to challenge their official version of the truth (1).
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Matthew on August 21, 2020, 05:32:37 PM
As a common sense Catholic, a "conspiracy theory" isn't outrageous or ridiculous at all.

conspiracy = 2 or more men getting together to create and carry out a plan, usually in secret
theory = using one's brain to try to figure out something, based on indirect evidence and logic, since none of us have video camera feeds running 24/7 in every room in America.

Why is it so ridiculous to believe 2 or more men would try to create plan(s) and then try to carry them out -- without shouting their plans to the world?
I don't find that unbelievable at all.

Especially as a Catholic, we know for a fact that the Jews have been in a 2,000 year battle against Christ and His Church.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 21, 2020, 05:32:48 PM
He almost had me too.

Just a few weeks ago, I posted a thread where I contemplated voting for him.

Now this.

Guess we are being punished by not having any morally acceptable candidates to vote for.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Carissima on August 21, 2020, 06:23:55 PM
Log Cabin Republicans


http://www.logcabin.org/ (http://www.logcabin.org/)
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Carissima on August 21, 2020, 06:24:55 PM
https://thefederalist.com/2019/10/11/donald-trump-has-done-far-more-for-gay-people-than-the-stonewall-democrats/ (https://thefederalist.com/2019/10/11/donald-trump-has-done-far-more-for-gay-people-than-the-stonewall-democrats/)
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on August 21, 2020, 06:27:15 PM
Look, the guy is certainly NOT perfect. It is disgusting that he has no problem with sodomites and it’s been obvious from the beginning that he doesn’t have a Catholic attitude toward perversion. Come on, is anyone surprised by it? I’m not. I've said this many times on this forum, I’m voting for him because he is an outsider. The conspirators hate him, he is disrupting their plans. That is why we should vote for him.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 21, 2020, 06:29:24 PM
Log Cabin Republicans


http://www.logcabin.org/ (http://www.logcabin.org/)
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)
Wow.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 21, 2020, 06:32:09 PM
Look, the guy is certainly NOT perfect. It is disgusting that he has no problem with sodomites and it’s been obvious from the beginning that he doesn’t have a Catholic attitude toward perversion. Come on, is anyone surprised by it? I’m not. I've said this many times on this forum, I’m voting for him because he is an outsider. The conspirators hate him, he is disrupting their plans. That is why we should vote for him.

Why should I care if a sodomite promoter is an insider or an outsider?

A Trump presidency ruins this country:

More souls will be damned for sodomy than for abortion.

If that is true, is Trump really the lesser evil??
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Matthew on August 21, 2020, 06:40:22 PM
Why should I care if a sodomite promoter is an insider or an outsider?

A Trump presidency ruins this country:

More souls will be damned for sodomy than for abortion.

If that is true, is Trump really the lesser evil??

I agree.

How are we promoting a pro-life future by voting for Trump? If the sodomite agenda is promoted, we'll be moving on to PEDOSEXUALS or "Minor Attracted Persons" (MAPs), bestiality, and necrophilia next. Gays/lesbians/transsexuals have already become mainstream. We'll continue the rolling downhill into Sodom & Gomorrah.

How is that good for for the cause of God and Life?

And Pence gave away the game when he used the term "conspiracy theory". He implicitly said Q is a bunch of crap, but the whole Q movement was the only thing suggesting Trump is truly working against the forces of evil.

I do think Trump is stringing us along. Hillary isn't locked up. I don't even see a lot of bad guys getting prosecuted for their nonsense. Has the swamp been drained? He has Fauci as one of his officials, for crying out loud! Fauci is on the same team as Bill Gates. If Trump was any kind of good guy, Fauci would have been outta there.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Matthew on August 21, 2020, 06:44:04 PM
I should point out:

I'm not suggesting that the Deep State isn't the devil. What I'm suggesting is that Trump vs. Deep State is "devil vs. devil" rather than "good vs. evil".

One of the biggest lessons I learned in life: when 2 people or 2 sides are fighting, you do not always have a good guy. When 2 pagan tribes in Africa fight each other viciously to the death/genocide, which of the tribes is on God's side? Neither.  Which one should you go out of your way to support? Neither.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: forlorn on August 21, 2020, 06:56:20 PM
Why should I care if a sodomite promoter is an insider or an outsider?

A Trump presidency ruins this country:

More souls will be damned for sodomy than for abortion.

If that is true, is Trump really the lesser evil??
I've read that approximately a quarter of American women will have an abortion in their lifetime. While not every one of them is damned(just as sodomites may reform), that's still far more "abortioners" than there are sodomites. And that's not even counting all the infants denied their chance at life and seeking their own salvation.

And anyway, Biden supports the sodomite agenda even more than Trump does. At least Trump took trannies out of the military and heavily protested the Civil Rights Act being extended to gays.

Trump is clearly immoral; even back in 2016 we knew he as a serial adulterer, an unscrupulous businessesman, and saw him wave a "pride" flag handed to him. So I respect your decision to refuse to vote for him. But let's not mischaracterise this as sodomy vs abortion; it's sodomy vs abortion and more sodomy.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 21, 2020, 07:05:11 PM
I've read that approximately a quarter of American women will have an abortion in their lifetime. While not every one of them is damned(just as sodomites may reform), that's still far more "abortioners" than there are sodomites. And that's not even counting all the infants denied their chance at life and seeking their own salvation.

And anyway, Biden supports the sodomite agenda even more than Trump does. At least Trump took trannies out of the military and heavily protested the Civil Rights Act being extended to gays.

Trump is clearly immoral; even back in 2016 we knew he as a serial adulterer, an unscrupulous businessesman, and saw him wave a "pride" flag handed to him. So I respect your decision to refuse to vote for him. But let's not mischaracterise this as sodomy vs abortion; it's sodomy vs abortion and more sodomy.
There are about 1 million abortions/year in America.
There are untold millions of acts of sodomy/year in America.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: ByzCat3000 on August 21, 2020, 07:07:24 PM
Wouldn't the principle of double effect say that if you voted for Trump *because* of the good policies he supports or to *prevent* the (bad and perceived worse) bad policies of Joe Biden, that it wouldn't be a sin to vote for him?

(not condoning for or against voting for Trump, though I don't understand why this is surprising.  We knew Trump supports homosexuality)
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Matthew on August 21, 2020, 07:07:46 PM
There are about 1 million abortions/year in America.
There are untold millions of acts of sodomy/year in America.


True -- Even if a woman was very careless about it, using abortion for birth control, she would hardly have more than 1-2 abortions a year. How much sodomy is committed per sodomite per year?

Abortion and sodomy are 2 of the 4 Sins Crying Out To Heaven for Vengeance.

Both of the 2 major parties (face it, America is as solid 2-party system) back one or more of these sins. Very discouraging for Catholics, I must say.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on August 21, 2020, 07:07:56 PM
Why should I care if a sodomite promoter is an insider or an outsider?

A Trump presidency ruins this country:

More souls will be damned for sodomy than for abortion.

If that is true, is Trump really the lesser evil??


Forget the “lesser evil“ stuff, I don’t support any evil. In my mind, voting for Trump is not an evil, but actually a hope for
a better future.

And a Biden presidency won’t promote sodomy and abortion and communism and BLM and reparations and the Federal Reserve and globalization and welfare and Obamacare and tranny surgery and gun confiscation and the suppression of the Catholic mass?
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Mithrandylan on August 21, 2020, 07:56:14 PM
One might sin if Trump was promising to, say, impose gay marriage legislation at the federal level.
.
But that already happened, and it had nothing to do with Trump.  I am not seeing what the technical problem is, aside from him being morally repugnant.  Not that that is irrelevant, but I don't see where sin enters the fray.  It isn't sinful to vote for a man who believes x [sinful thing], it is sinful (or at least, could be) to vote for a man who promises to implement x [sinful thing].
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Clemens Maria on August 21, 2020, 08:06:05 PM
It’s a mortal sin to impede the establishment of a militant sodomitic atheistic dictatorship?  Even if Trump is a horrible candidate, surely he isn’t quite as horrible as Biden or more importantly Harris? Maybe Trump shows his perversity openly but at least he isn’t planning on imposing laws that would forbid the practice of our “antisemitic” and “bigoted” religion.  Voting for Biden or even not voting at all will help usher in the closing of our chapels much sooner than a vote for Trump.  I have to wonder if the psyops haven’t started to take a toll on traditional Catholics.  Maybe we should try to counter that by praying more and doing more penance.  I see discussion about diets here.  Why don’t we all do the intermittent fast at least one day a week until the election along with the full Litany of the Saints daily?  For the intention for God’s guidance and protection during this time of political instability.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 21, 2020, 08:20:59 PM
Wouldn't the principle of double effect say that if you voted for Trump *because* of the good policies he supports or to *prevent* the (bad and perceived worse) bad policies of Joe Biden, that it wouldn't be a sin to vote for him?

(not condoning for or against voting for Trump, though I don't understand why this is surprising.  We knew Trump supports homosexuality)
Couldn't I vote for Biden then for the same reasons?
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 21, 2020, 08:24:22 PM

Forget the “lesser evil“ stuff, I don’t support any evil. In my mind, voting for Trump is not an evil, but actually a hope for
a better future.

And a Biden presidency won’t promote sodomy and abortion and communism and BLM and reparations and the Federal Reserve and globalization and welfare and Obamacare and tranny surgery and gun confiscation and the suppression of the Catholic mass?

I would say you have some very selective perception!

American is more degenerate than ever under Trump, and he is going to make it even more degenerate.

Democrats and Republicans are the problem, not the solution.

They offer the illusion of having a choice, but in reality, they are just the left and right parameters to box you in to the permitted revolutionary direction this country's handlers are bringing it.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Matto on August 21, 2020, 08:27:48 PM
Things are starting to get ridiculous. I can understand voting for Trump, but I cannot garner any enthusiasm. But people will cry out "Vote for Trump, he only supports and promotes three of the sins that cry to heaven for vengeance, while Biden supports and promotes all four."
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: ByzCat3000 on August 21, 2020, 08:35:30 PM
Couldn't I vote for Biden then for the same reasons?
I don't conceptually understand how you could frame a case for doing this.  I've never seen a Traditional Catholic (And I'm being really broad here) even try.  And usually when Novus Ordos do, its something like "sure Biden supports child murder and whatnot, but like, Trump isn't perfect on abortion either, but look at all the *other* Catholic things the Democratic Party agrees with like no death penalty and allowing more immigration and being pro "social justice" and BLM and... you get the idea.  Stuff that isn't *even* really Catholic, just the more liberal side of the NO.

Honestly the only reason I could even fathom to vote for Joe Biden would be something purely realpolitik and having nothing to do with the candidates themselves... something like "if Biden wins that will divide our enemies into Neoliberal and Progressive factions" or something like that.  I personally wouldn't do that, but I'm not sure I'd accuse someone who did decide to pursue that strategy of mortal sin.

But otherwise.... like what argument could you even construct for doing that?  I suppose maybe if you sincerely thought Trump was going to bring about nuclear annihilation, that could trump the evil of a pro abortion position, maybe and arguably (not certainly by any stretch.)  But the evidence is against that too, Trump has been comparatively restrained on foreign policy too.

To be clear, I'm not even trying to argue *for* a Trump vote, just wondering how we can make an accusation of grave sin.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Clemens Maria on August 21, 2020, 08:40:48 PM
If you can’t distinguish between Demonrats and Republicans, I feel sorry for you.  The Trump admin worked against state governments that were trying to shut down churches during the Covid lockdowns.  Do you think Biden/Harris will do the same?  In fact, federally there is no lockdown at all.  The lockdowns are state initiatives.  And they are mostly demonrat states.  Some states had no masking and no lockdowns.  They were Republicans.  So demonrat vs republican has consequences.  If the demonrats get the White House and Congress you should expect laws that will outlaw the practice of our Catholic religion.  I know some clergy are already considering possible contingencies.  But if it happens expect a lot of misery for yourself if you continue to practice your faith.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 21, 2020, 08:49:36 PM
I don't conceptually understand how you could frame a case for doing this.  I've never seen a Traditional Catholic (And I'm being really broad here) even try.  And usually when Novus Ordos do, its something like "sure Biden supports child murder and whatnot, but like, Trump isn't perfect on abortion either, but look at all the *other* Catholic things the Democratic Party agrees with like no death penalty and allowing more immigration and being pro "social justice" and BLM and... you get the idea.  Stuff that isn't *even* really Catholic, just the more liberal side of the NO.

Honestly the only reason I could even fathom to vote for Joe Biden would be something purely realpolitik and having nothing to do with the candidates themselves... something like "if Biden wins that will divide our enemies into Neoliberal and Progressive factions" or something like that.  I personally wouldn't do that, but I'm not sure I'd accuse someone who did decide to pursue that strategy of mortal sin.

But otherwise.... like what argument could you even construct for doing that?  I suppose maybe if you sincerely thought Trump was going to bring about nuclear annihilation, that could trump the evil of a pro abortion position, maybe and arguably (not certainly by any stretch.)  But the evidence is against that too, Trump has been comparatively restrained on foreign policy too.

To be clear, I'm not even trying to argue *for* a Trump vote, just wondering how we can make an accusation of grave sin.
Have you ever seen a traditional Catholic promote Trump on any other basis than the alleged and illusory end to abortion schtick?
I've been hearing that same argument for the last 30 years.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 21, 2020, 08:50:55 PM
If you can’t distinguish between Demonrats and Republicans, I feel sorry for you.  The Trump admin worked against state governments that were trying to shut down churches during the Covid lockdowns.  Do you think Biden/Harris will do the same?  In fact, federally there is no lockdown at all.  The lockdowns are state initiatives.  And they are mostly demonrat states.  Some states had no masking and no lockdowns.  They were Republicans.  So demonrat vs republican has consequences.  If the demonrats get the White House and Congress you should expect laws that will outlaw the practice of our Catholic religion.  I know some clergy are already considering possible contingencies.  But if it happens expect a lot of misery for yourself if you continue to practice your faith.
And if you do distinguish between democans and republicrats, I feel even sorrier for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgGnBCDfCLM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgGnBCDfCLM)
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 21, 2020, 08:54:11 PM
And if you do distinguish between democans and republicrats, I feel even sorrier for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgGnBCDfCLM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgGnBCDfCLM)

Oops, that's a good one, but meant to post this one: No difference between democans and republicrats:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QT8Q-Hcll0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QT8Q-Hcll0)
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: SoldierOfChrist on August 21, 2020, 08:57:56 PM
First Pence blasts Q as a "conspiracy theory" (he actually used that term! educated Catholics will understand the grave and deep significance of using that term*)

God is trying to tell me something. I guess I have another 20 min. of free time this November 3rd.



*According to Zero Hedge (https://www.bing.com/search?q=Zero+Hedge&filters=sid%3a3d8be68c-436f-3d7d-ac90-88ac76c5fd2b&form=ENTLNK), the term Conspiracy Theory was created by the CIA in 1967 as a way to discredit anyone who dared to challenge their official version of the truth (1).
Pence received an envelope at H.W. Bush’s funeral.  We’ve known along that he was at best a grey hat.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 21, 2020, 09:05:48 PM
Pence received an envelope at H.W. Bush’s funeral.  We’ve known along that he was at best a grey hat.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnx0ZXNsYXNlY3JldHMyfGd4OjJkNTk0Mzg3NTQ2NTI0NjA (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnx0ZXNsYXNlY3JldHMyfGd4OjJkNTk0Mzg3NTQ2NTI0NjA)
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Tradman on August 21, 2020, 09:19:46 PM
One might sin if Trump was promising to, say, impose gay marriage legislation at the federal level.
.
But that already happened, and it had nothing to do with Trump.  I am not seeing what the technical problem is, aside from him being morally repugnant.  Not that that is irrelevant, but I don't see where sin enters the fray.  It isn't sinful to vote for a man who believes x [sinful thing], it is sinful (or at least, could be) to vote for a man who promises to implement x [sinful thing].
Trump has revealed his hand in so many ways, but he gets a pass because he has very effectively used abortion to get into office.  Why are Catholics so blind?
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on August 21, 2020, 09:37:27 PM
And if you do distinguish between democans and republicrats, I feel even sorrier for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgGnBCDfCLM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgGnBCDfCLM)
Andrew Napolitano has never been married
The Fox News senior judicial analyst Napolitano, 67, has never been married to anyone till date. Neither has he been in the news for dating anyone. In this context, his close relationship with late-friend James Conley Sheil sparked the rumor that he was in a relationship with James. 
James was an attorney and a professor at Seton Hall Law School. He passed away on March 19, 2013, at his Little Fall, N.J. home at the age of 48. He was one of the most sought-after analysts of the law and appellate brief writer, who spent most of his time working for immigration equality in New York City.
(https://ecelebrityfacts.com//images/35344/andrew-napolitano-060923900-1510283346.jpg)
Andrew Napolitano and James C. Sheil

James was a gifted writer who had been honored with several accolades, which include seven N.J. Press Association awards and the Martin Luther King Jr. Human Rights Award. He was co-working on a book, Suicide Pact: The Radical Expansion of Presidential Powers and the Lethal Threat to American Liberty, with Napolitano before his death.
Later, in the acknowledgments section of the book, Napolitano expressed his heartfelt condolence to James as, “... my happy dreams turned dark last year when Jim Sheil, my alter ego to whose memory this book is dedicated, died suddenly on March 19th, 2013, as we were working on this book. Jim and I shared much of our lives with each other. Among that which we shared was a love of the printed word. Yet our philosophies and politics were like oil and water.”
https://obits.nj.com/obituaries/starledger/obituary.aspx?pid=163779840 (https://obits.nj.com/obituaries/starledger/obituary.aspx?pid=163779840)

James Conley Sheil
Attorney in business litigation group at McCarter & English law firm and adjunct professor at Seton Hall Law School who did pro bono work in immigration field
James Conley Sheil, 48, died suddenly on March 19, 2013, at his home in Little Falls, N.J. 
Born in Newark, N.J., on May 25, 1964, Jim was an attorney at McCarter & English and an adjunct professor of legal research and writing at Seton Hall Law School in Newark.  
He was a member of the Business and Financial Services Litigation Group at McCarter and devoted much of his time to pro bono work for Immigration Equality in New York City. At McCarter, he was a sought-after analyst of the law and appellate brief writer who interacted with many of the firm's attorneys at all of its multi-state offices.
Jim was raised in Maplewood, N.J., and lived in Bloomfield, N.J., and Little Falls. He graduated from Columbia High School in Maplewood in 1982. While there, he excelled in gymnastics and competitive swimming. 
Jim graduated from Columbia University in New York City with a B.A. in English in 1986 and received his J.D. from Seton Hall Law School, summa cum laude, in 1999. At Seton Hall, he was the managing editor of the Seton Hall Law Review. Upon his graduation, Jim spent a year as a law clerk for the Hon. John C. Lifland in federal district court in Newark.
Prior to his legal career, Jim had been the managing editor for several weekly New Jersey newspapers and he worked in public relations. He was a gifted writer and received much recognition for his work, including seven N.J. Press Association awards; the Martin Luther King Jr. Human Rights Award from the City of Orange, N.J., and a public commendation from the Isaiah House Emergency Shelter for exposing the conditions of homeless families in East Orange, N.J. 
Jim is survived by his longtime friend, Andrew Napolitano; his parents, Betsy and Harry Sheil; his siblings, Harry and Ellen Sheil, Marianne Sheil, Bonnie and David Brienza, and Brian and Susana Sheil; his grandmother, Anne Conley Funcheon; his six nieces and nephews, and a large, loving, extended family.
His commitment to the defense of personal freedoms and human rights was a guiding force in his life. He had a special place in his heart for animals, especially for his dog, Gina.
Jim was a loving family member, a voracious reader, and an amateur Egyptologist. He had a brilliant mind and a gentle soul, and he gave generously of his brief time on earth. 
In addition to his family, Jim was loved by his colleagues and his students. His loss will be deeply felt by all whose lives he touched.
Viewing will be Sunday, March 24, 2013 at the Jacob A. Holle Funeral Home, 2122 Millburn Ave., Maplewood, N.J., from 1 to 6 p.m. A Funeral Mass will be held for the repose of Jim's soul at Our Lady of Sorrows Roman Catholic Church, 217 Prospect St., South Orange, N.J. at 10:30 a.m. on Monday, March 25, 2013. Interment will be private. 
In lieu of flowers, please consider making a donation to The James Conley Sheil Foundation, P.O. Box 100, Newton, N.J. 07860, which will support the education of students at Seton Hall Law School and the many charitable organizations about which Jim was passionate and which served the poor, immigrants, and abandoned animals



Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: ByzCat3000 on August 21, 2020, 09:38:11 PM
Have you ever seen a traditional Catholic promote Trump on any other basis than the alleged and illusory end to abortion schtick?
I've been hearing that same argument for the last 30 years.
Yeah actually.  And I don't buy the argument that Trump will end abortion.  *at best* he might be more reluctant to use federal power against a State who decided to do the right thing.

I'm not arguing for Trump per se though.  I'm trying to understand the rationale that it could be mortal sin to vote for him
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 21, 2020, 09:54:16 PM
Yeah actually.  And I don't buy the argument that Trump will end abortion.  *at best* he might be more reluctant to use federal power against a State who decided to do the right thing.

I'm not arguing for Trump per se though.  I'm trying to understand the rationale that it could be mortal sin to vote for him
That was just a thought, given that he is promoting sodomy and the destruction of the family.  I don't think I could vote for such a man without betraying my conscience (subjective), but I wonder whether any other knowing Catholic could do so without sin.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: ByzCat3000 on August 21, 2020, 10:00:15 PM
That was just a thought, given that he is promoting sodomy and the destruction of the family.  I don't think I could vote for such a man without betraying my conscience (subjective), but I wonder whether any other knowing Catholic could do so without sin.
At the least I can't imagine how it could be grave matter unless the intent was bad (ie. "I'm voting for Trump *because* I want homosexual marriage, not in spite of it") and I don't really see how it could be a sin at all.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: SoldierOfChrist on August 21, 2020, 10:05:51 PM
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnx0ZXNsYXNlY3JldHMyfGd4OjJkNTk0Mzg3NTQ2NTI0NjA (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnx0ZXNsYXNlY3JldHMyfGd4OjJkNTk0Mzg3NTQ2NTI0NjA)
Thanks for the link, SeanJohnson.  This looks like good reading, and I will read it.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 21, 2020, 10:09:42 PM
At the least I can't imagine how it could be grave matter unless the intent was bad (ie. "I'm voting for Trump *because* I want homosexual marriage, not in spite of it") and I don't really see how it could be a sin at all.

My thought is more concerned with the mindset that reasons, "Yeah, I know he's for the fags and the breakup of the family, but he's conservative and we gotta keep Biden out."

How is that not a culpable mindset: Knowing and consenting to putting a man in office who will violate natural law, and turning a blind eye (hard heart?) to it because someone else will violate natural law.

So two wrongs make a right?
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 21, 2020, 10:18:30 PM
Byz-

You do raise the ultimate question:

When is it grave matter to vote for a particular candidate?

Is it never sinful, because all candidates are sinners, and promote deranged policies?

Or, is it a weighing: One candidate promotes 6 abominations, while the other only promotes 2-3 abominations (as Matthew pointed out earlier)?

Or, does one abomination per candidate rule them both out?

And as regards the non-Catholic "lesser of two evils" schtick, since there is no necessity/compulsion to vote, how will one who votes for evil claim they had no choice?

Keeping in mind that the classic example of "double effect" is one man tied to the railroad track, while a bus of children stalls on another railroad track, and the person must make a choice to save one of the other, but cannot save both.  In choosing one, he does not will the death of the other.  But I do not see this necessity to choose present in the context of political elections (or, at least not between these two faulty candidates).

In other words, it is not clear to me that double effect is relevant here.

But the "lesser of two evils" without necessity is even on shakier ground: It is a simple matter of overlooking all the abominations of one candidate because they support their particular interest, while condemning the abominations in the other candidate.

It seems hypocritical and immoral somehow to me.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: StLouisIX on August 21, 2020, 10:25:49 PM
Obviously practically everyone here has more lived experience in dealing with the lies of the political system than me. 

How would any of you who are against Trump now respond to someone who says that if Trump is not re-elected, political Reactionaries and Right Wing Dissidents (who tend to promote policies at least favorable to Catholics) will never have a chance at turning the GOP around? Some would say (and I am somewhat convinced by this argument) that the whole Trump phenomenon has proven that there is the potential for a real reaction against the political system.

Therefore, if Trump loses, the Democrats will certainly clamp down on these voices, and prevent any potential of a Trump-like candidate ever getting into a serious position of power ever again. Even the dissemination of right wing ideas and certainly the authentic Catholic Faith will likely be banned under “hate speech” laws and whatnot. 

Though, after reading about Trump’s ties with Epstein, it makes me think that perhaps the system will never allow for a real reactionary/dissident who is truly outside the system to gain power. More importantly, as SJ reiterated, is the question of whether voting for Trump is a sin or not. 
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 21, 2020, 10:33:14 PM
Obviously practically everyone here has more lived experience in dealing with the lies of the political system than me.

How would any of you who are against Trump now respond to someone who says that if Trump is not re-elected, political Reactionaries and Right Wing Dissidents (who tend to promote policies at least favorable to Catholics) will never have a chance at turning the GOP around? Some would say (and I am somewhat convinced by this argument) that the whole Trump phenomenon has proven that there is the potential for a real reaction against the political system.

Therefore, if Trump loses, the Democrats will certainly clamp down on these voices, and prevent any potential of a Trump-like candidate ever getting into a serious position of power ever again. Even the dissemination of right wing ideas and certainly the authentic Catholic Faith will likely be banned under “hate speech” laws and whatnot.

Though, after reading about Trump’s ties with Epstein, it makes me think that perhaps the system will never allow for a real reactionary/dissident who is truly outside the system to gain power. More importantly, as SJ reiterated, is the question of whether voting for Trump is a sin or not.

Well, my own view is that the two-party system is designed to limit (not promote) choice, and the Catholic revolution we dream of will never transpire in a Judeo-Masonic republic (as the banning of Ron Paul from the Republican convention proved):

This country's handlers in Tel Aviv will never permit a morally acceptable candidate to arise (nor could such a Catholic candidate ever arise, whose very doctrine opposes the Masonic separation of Church and state).

Keep in mind also, that Trump sat on his thumb while the churches were closed down, promotes faggot marriage, masks, shut down the economy, plunged the nation further in debt to our Jew bankrollers of the central banks, promotes sodomy, etc.

So the very idea of incrementalism is flawed: It is only permitted for liberals (i.e., democrats/republicans).  The country is being steered relentlessly in a direction by hidden powers who will prevent at all cost an incrementalism heading in the opposite direction (unless it is tactical to quell concerns, momentarily).
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: SoldierOfChrist on August 21, 2020, 10:41:17 PM
Regarding Trump, he seems to be using a similar tactic as JPII’s ostpolitik.  He forces them to negotiate with him, by appearing to be reasonable and ready to compromise.  In many cases he actually does compromise, and allows the enemy to gain ground.  This is not a winning strategy, and the best it can do is to slow them down, as it did with the conspiracy against the Church.  I don’t believe that he really does think sodomy is good, but he probably does not see it as the sin against nature, which cries to Heaven for vengeance, as we do.  He also enthusiastically encourages women and mothers to work, despite the fact that he saw the result with his own wife Ivana when he gave her a high level job, that she was turning into a power-tripping maniac, and losing her feminine nature.  So on that front he clearly is not following his intellect.  He’s a bit of a pushover with the social issues.  He even used to be pro-choice until Melania convinced him to change his stance on that.  He did stick to his list of scotus appointments, and he went to the rally in DC.  But with battles he chooses not to fight, he seems to just keep his mouth shut.  He doesn’t have much to say about masks, but I’m pretty sure he’s not in favor of them.  He pays lip service to covid vaccines, but I don’t believe he actually supports them.  He always follows up any discussion of vaccines with “but what I’m really excited about is the therapeutics”.  That tells me he’s not a vaccine supporter.  He says mask wearing can be patriotic, but the dems sure are frustrated with his lack of a federal mask mandate.  I don’t think he LIKES masks.  Same with this.  I don’t see any real support for Obergfell.  I don’t see any resistance to it either.  Maybe he’ll be turned around on that like he was with abortion.  He did ban transvestites in the military after all.  I’ll almost definitely vote for him, but I’m not expecting him to save us.  Only God can do that.  And if you can convince me that it’s a mortal sin to vote for him then I’ll sit this one out.  I’m more interested in prepping for the coming civil war.  Are we even going to have 50 united states in a few months?  Am I going to be stuck with my family behind enemy lines?  Those are the things that concern me most about the election.  And since the dems don’t believe in election outcomes, it doesn’t really matter who wins. We’re probably going to war with each other anyway.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: ByzCat3000 on August 21, 2020, 10:56:55 PM
Byz-

You do raise the ultimate question:

When is it grave matter to vote for a particular candidate?

Is it never sinful, because all candidates are sinners, and promote deranged policies?

Or, is it a weighing: One candidate promotes 6 abominations, while the other only promotes 2-3 abominations (as Matthew pointed out earlier)?

Or, does one abomination per candidate rule them both out?

And as regards the non-Catholic "lesser of two evils" schtick, since there is no necessity/compulsion to vote, how will one who votes for evil claim they had no choice?

Keeping in mind that the classic example of "double effect" is one man tied to the railroad track, while a bus of children stalls on another railroad track, and the person must make a choice to save one of the other, but cannot save both.  In choosing one, he does not will the death of the other.  But I do not see this necessity to choose present in the context of political elections (or, at least not between these two faulty candidates).

In other words, it is not clear to me that double effect is relevant here.

But the "lesser of two evils" without necessity is even on shakier ground: It is a simple matter of overlooking all the abominations of one candidate because they support their particular interest, while condemning the abominations in the other candidate.

It seems hypocritical and immoral somehow to me.
I think the underlying philosophical question is, what is a vote?  Is it an absolute endorsement of the candidate?  Or is it a strategic calculation, much like the wielding of a weapon?

In neither case I do I think we should always vote for the "lesser evil" because if we do that we just get more terrible candidates.  So either way we have to have standards.

However, if a vote is really a full throated endorsement, than we can't really vote for anyone.  We couldn't really even vote for Ron Paul (and I will admit, I think it would've been foolish not to, given the possibility) because he did *on principle* believe things like sodomy and the morning after pill should be legal (though he would have absolutely allowed any state to disagree with him) and that's objectively wrong, both should be banned.

On the other hand, if a vote is a strategic calculation than we make a decision, prudentially, OK will voting for this candidate *actually* help to promote Catholic priniciple in this country moreso than not doing so.  And if we think it will, we should vote.  If we don't, we shouldn't.

I don't think third party candidates are (usually) viable options in the sense of actually being able to win elections.  The way the system is set up precludes this.  However, they certainly can signal preferences.  Voting for the Constitution Party candidate over Mitt Romney or Donald Trump or whoever essentially signals "you lost a vote because you weren't conservative enough."

So, if I'm right that a vote is a strategic allocation of resources rather than a full throated endorsement, one could still argue against voting for Trump on prudential grounds, and they could be right.

But unless the Church has clearly ruled on what a vote is (and as far as I'm aware it hasn't), I don't see how we can accuse of mortal sin, or even sin at all, *unless* a Catholic makes whatever choice they make for a non Catholic reason.

I'd be inclined to even extend this to a vote for Joe Biden *if* the person did it for an actually Catholic reason, I just don't see how they possibly could do so *unless* the argument was something purely strategic and having zero to do with character.  Something like "I'm gonna support Biden because a lot of liberals hate him and he'll make a fool of himself and of liberalism."  I *think* that would theoretically be acceptable, whether its truly prudent or not.

However, I can think of more possible reasons to get behind Trump.  One obvious one is that, while Trump does support allowing evils like sodomy, he's probably doing this stuff to get elected.  I see no evidence that Trump actually thinks that Christians who disagree with sodomy are bigoted or should be shut down or anything like that.  But we know Biden does think that.  Trump also seems somewhat woke on the dangers of Covidism, even suggesting rhetorically that he might force governors to allow churches to reopen (which he can't do constitutionally but nonetheless.)  

One could also make compelling reasons not to vote for Trump, but I don't see how one could plausibly argue that he's the same as Biden.

But again, unless the Church has given something clearer that I'm not aware of, I don't see how we can say *either* choice is a sin.  this seems like a prudence issue.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 21, 2020, 11:05:58 PM
FWIW, here's an SSPX blurb on the subject:

"Clearly, we are no longer in the circumstance of having to choose between Catholic and non-Catholic, morally upright and liberal representatives. All the alternatives are liberal, the deception and the manipulation of the public by the media is rampant. In practice, it generally comes down to the question of whether or not it is permissible to vote for an unworthy candidate (e.g., a candidate who only approves abortion in cases of rape or incest), for he would at least (we suppose) be the lesser evil. In such a case, there can be no obligation to vote, for all the reasons mentioned by Pope Pius XII that could oblige, no longer apply. Nevertheless, it is still permissible to vote in such a case, provided that one can be sure that there truly is a lesser evil, and that there is a grave reason to do so (e.g., to avoid abortion on demand, or promotion of unnatural methods of birth control), and one has the good intention of providing for the good of society as best one can. This is called material cooperation. However, it can never be obligatory."
http://archives.sspx.org/miscellaneous/catholic_principles_for_voting.htm (http://archives.sspx.org/miscellaneous/catholic_principles_for_voting.htm)

Application:

1) Is Trump TRULY a lesser evil? (Debatable, which means one is not sure)

2) Is there a grave reason to vote for him? (Abortion on demand will persist regardless of who is elected next)

Consequently, it is still not clear to me one can vote for Trump.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: donkath on August 21, 2020, 11:12:24 PM
Look, the guy is certainly NOT perfect. It is disgusting that he has no problem with sodomites and it’s been obvious from the beginning that he doesn’t have a Catholic attitude toward perversion. Come on, is anyone surprised by it? I’m not. I've said this many times on this forum, I’m voting for him because he is an outsider. The conspirators hate him, he is disrupting their plans. That is why we should vote for him.
He's always been after the'ecumenical Christian' vote which now includes Catholics (mostly new church types) and LGBT votes because he believes that LGBT folk, cannot help being the way they are.
He prays with Pence and staff as a pentecostal 'Christian'.  Point being made is that he is after the majority of votes.  In his mindset being proud of the public's perception of him as favourable to LGBT is what counts and that he is charitable to all-comers.


Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 21, 2020, 11:15:06 PM
FWIW, here's an SSPX blurb on the subject:

"Clearly, we are no longer in the circumstance of having to choose between Catholic and non-Catholic, morally upright and liberal representatives. All the alternatives are liberal, the deception and the manipulation of the public by the media is rampant. In practice, it generally comes down to the question of whether or not it is permissible to vote for an unworthy candidate (e.g., a candidate who only approves abortion in cases of rape or incest), for he would at least (we suppose) be the lesser evil. In such a case, there can be no obligation to vote, for all the reasons mentioned by Pope Pius XII that could oblige, no longer apply. Nevertheless, it is still permissible to vote in such a case, provided that one can be sure that there truly is a lesser evil, and that there is a grave reason to do so (e.g., to avoid abortion on demand, or promotion of unnatural methods of birth control), and one has the good intention of providing for the good of society as best one can. This is called material cooperation. However, it can never be obligatory."
http://archives.sspx.org/miscellaneous/catholic_principles_for_voting.htm (http://archives.sspx.org/miscellaneous/catholic_principles_for_voting.htm)

Application:

1) Is Trump TRULY a lesser evil? (Debatable, which means one is not sure)

2) Is there a grave reason to vote for him? (Abortion on demand will persist regardless of who is elected next)

Consequently, it is still not clear to me one can vote for Trump.

And just below that SSPX blurb is this concerning piece:

"However, it can be permissible to tolerate the lesser of two evils for a proportionate reason [without necessity? -SJ], and such toleration can be for the common good, precisely because it is the lesser of two evils. Thus it is possible to vote or even campaign for a candidate whose platform contains evils with which we do not agree. Everything depends upon a hierarchy of the most important values and issues taking priority over lesser ones.

For a Catholic, there can be no doubt that the issues that take the highest priority must be the moral issues, and not personal or economic issues. The whole continuation of society as we know it depends upon this, and those who deny the most basic principles of the natural order are bringing about an unheard of perversion. Consequently, it is permissible and prudent to vote on the one single issue of proscribing abortion, or forbidding same-sex marriages, or putting an end to euthanasia, or freedom of the Catholic Church to run educational institutions. All of these issues are of the utmost importance. Consequently, it would be permissible and prudent to vote for a candidate who promotes an unjust war, on the basis of one or other of these issues. Consequently, it is likewise permissible to vote for a candidate who is known to be a Freemason, although Freemasonry is an evil society condemned by the Church and opposed to the Catholic Church, if he maintains an important principle of the natural law such as the evil of abortion.

Lesser issues are also of moral importance, such as the justice or injustice of a particular war, or the paying of a just wage to employees, maintaining the right to private property by limiting government intervention, and so on. All other things being equal, one could vote on the basis of such issues. However, it would be wrong to vote for a candidate who has a correct position on one of these issues, but a perverse and wrong position on a more important issue.

Consequently, it would be manifestly immoral and sinful to vote for a candidate who pretends to be Catholic, but who in fact is pro-abortion, pro-gay, or pro-euthanasia."
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: donkath on August 21, 2020, 11:29:17 PM
And just below that SSPX blurb is this concerning piece:

"However, it can be permissible to tolerate the lesser of two evils for a proportionate reason [without necessity? -SJ], and such toleration can be for the common good, precisely because it is the lesser of two evils. Thus it is possible to vote or even campaign for a candidate whose platform contains evils with which we do not agree. Everything depends upon a hierarchy of the most important values and issues taking priority over lesser ones.

For a Catholic, there can be no doubt that the issues that take the highest priority must be the moral issues, and not personal or economic issues. The whole continuation of society as we know it depends upon this, and those who deny the most basic principles of the natural order are bringing about an unheard of perversion. Consequently, it is permissible and prudent to vote on the one single issue of proscribing abortion, or forbidding same-sex marriages, or putting an end to euthanasia, or freedom of the Catholic Church to run educational institutions. All of these issues are of the utmost importance. Consequently, it would be permissible and prudent to vote for a candidate who promotes an unjust war, on the basis of one or other of these issues. Consequently, it is likewise permissible to vote for a candidate who is known to be a Freemason, although Freemasonry is an evil society condemned by the Church and opposed to the Catholic Church, if he maintains an important principle of the natural law such as the evil of abortion.

Lesser issues are also of moral importance, such as the justice or injustice of a particular war, or the paying of a just wage to employees, maintaining the right to private property by limiting government intervention, and so on. All other things being equal, one could vote on the basis of such issues. However, it would be wrong to vote for a candidate who has a correct position on one of these issues, but a perverse and wrong position on a more important issue.

Consequently, it would be manifestly immoral and sinful to vote for a candidate who pretends to be Catholic, but who in fact is pro-abortion, pro-gay, or pro-euthanasia."


Makes me wonder if the SSPX applies these principles to its own defacto acceptance of 95% (or thereabouts) of the counterfeit anti-Christ conciliar newchurch.

..
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on August 22, 2020, 04:29:00 AM
One might sin if Trump was promising to, say, impose gay marriage legislation at the federal level.
.
But that already happened, and it had nothing to do with Trump.  I am not seeing what the technical problem is, aside from him being morally repugnant.  Not that that is irrelevant, but I don't see where sin enters the fray.  It isn't sinful to vote for a man who believes x [sinful thing], it is sinful (or at least, could be) to vote for a man who promises to implement x [sinful thing].
Excellent point!
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on August 22, 2020, 05:05:36 AM
True -- Even if a woman was very careless about it, using abortion for birth control, she would hardly have more than 1-2 abortions a year. How much sodomy is committed per sodomite per year?

Abortion and sodomy are 2 of the 4 Sins Crying Out To Heaven for Vengeance.

Both of the 2 major parties (face it, America is as solid 2-party system) back one or more of these sins. Very discouraging for Catholics, I must say.


This makes no sense. Just because Trump thinks these evil acts are acceptable doesn’t necessarily mean he’s responsible for those acts committed every year. As Mithrandylan rightly pointed out, it’s not like Trump is trying to impose homo “marriage” on society or to force a baker to bake a pro-homo “marriage” cake. As a matter of fact, the Trump Administration sided with the baker in the Colorado case. If he were to actively impose these evils, then obviously he would lose my vote. He would also lose it if he were to impose forced vaccination or gun confiscation. No, I think Trump is playing a long term game and he is calculating each move he makes.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 22, 2020, 06:27:12 AM
Log Cabin Republicans


http://www.logcabin.org/ (http://www.logcabin.org/)
Even that name has a fag-sex connotation.
Actually, you can apply that to just about ALL "republicans" these days.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 22, 2020, 06:46:02 AM
First Pence blasts Q as a "conspiracy theory" (he actually used that term! educated Catholics will understand the grave and deep significance of using that term*)

God is trying to tell me something. I guess I have another 20 min. of free time this November 3rd.



*According to Zero Hedge (https://www.bing.com/search?q=Zero+Hedge&filters=sid%3a3d8be68c-436f-3d7d-ac90-88ac76c5fd2b&form=ENTLNK), the term Conspiracy Theory was created by the CIA in 1967 as a way to discredit anyone who dared to challenge their official version of the truth (1).
I thought your message was Trump or bust this Nov? I thought you believed that ABORTION was the primary issue, not whether or not DT recognizes faggotry? Because, we all knew from day one he did. There is no surprise here.

Trump was born and raised within the compounds of sodomites and jews in NYC and if you're gonna go anywhere or make any real money or definitely if you go into politics around here, you better turn a blind eye or better or have the appearance of tacit approval of these groups or they will cut you off at the knees before you even get going.That is the reality.

I don't think Trump believes in his heart for one second that men having butt-sex with each other is "normal", ( or maybe he does, I can't read the man's mind) but, being the "businessman" he is, he knows strategy, he knows you have to give a little to gain a lot in the end. And that should be our strategy for now, use Trump to move forward a Nationalist/Catholic  agenda until we formulate a better plan, party or candidate in the future.

Yes, I agree, sodomy is an issue, but killing babies is a larger one at the moment. And, like it's already been mentioned here, DT is not PUSHING faggotry on us at the moment or fanatical, godless, atheist communism like you will get with Bden/Harris and the rest of democrat nutjobs. Not only will they push fags and kill more babies, if not damn near eat them openly, but they WILL break the economy, sell out completely to NWO and come for your guns, houses and property.

This is the most important election in American history, Trump is not the savior, we never said he was.

But the alternative is death to just about everything we believe in, including possibly ourselves.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Venantius0518 on August 22, 2020, 06:51:27 AM
. If Trump was any kind of good guy
... he would be dead by now.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Venantius0518 on August 22, 2020, 06:55:44 AM
There are about 1 million abortions/year in America.

1,000,000 legal reported abortions.
Many more thru RU486, contraception, and unreported abortions.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 22, 2020, 07:00:24 AM
One might sin if Trump was promising to, say, impose gay marriage legislation at the federal level.
.
But that already happened, and it had nothing to do with Trump.  I am not seeing what the technical problem is, aside from him being morally repugnant.  Not that that is irrelevant, but I don't see where sin enters the fray.  It isn't sinful to vote for a man who believes x [sinful thing], it is sinful (or at least, could be) to vote for a man who promises to implement x [sinful thing].
I would say, judge a man by his actions, not words. I think for the most part Trump's actions fall in line with what he says or believes. But he does not always deliver and that's for a reason. Of course, being an arrogant rich bastard that he is, he thinks he can say or push things on people because he has money and will get his way. that is not how things work in the world of politics, yes the rich and powerful usually dominate and set agenda, but not always.

And Trump is against some rich and powerful people himself, who are enmeshed in the political world. And he has many enemies in both parties, combined with the globalists, including pope frank, he is definitely up against it.And now a manufactured planetary virus infection as well. This is too much for any one person to overcome, without divine assistance. I don't care how strong will-ed you are, this will not end well.

As for the "sinning" and not voting for DT, my Lord man, take a good look at the opposition.

Are you freakin kidding me?
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 22, 2020, 07:06:28 AM
That was just a thought, given that he is promoting sodomy and the destruction of the family.  I don't think I could vote for such a man without betraying my conscience (subjective), but I wonder whether any other knowing Catholic could do so without sin.
But you can enable a  demonic monster like Biden and the radical black racist Harris to take control of the most powerful position on the planet? Is your Catholic conscience ok with that?
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 22, 2020, 07:10:43 AM
My thought is more concerned with the mindset that reasons, "Yeah, I know he's for the fags and the breakup of the family, but he's conservative and we gotta keep Biden out."

How is that not a culpable mindset: Knowing and consenting to putting a man in office who will violate natural law, and turning a blind eye (hard heart?) to it because someone else will violate natural law.

So two wrongs make a right?
Do you have a better alternative? No, I didn't think so.

Just sit home on election day and twiddle your thumbs while the commies and they're black racist pets take the country over.

Oh yea, THEN you'll be ready to fight when they openly come after you and your's because you just happen to be Catholic/christian, male AND white....Good luck with that.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 22, 2020, 07:25:30 AM
Byz-

You do raise the ultimate question:

When is it grave matter to vote for a particular candidate?

Is it never sinful, because all candidates are sinners, and promote deranged policies?

Or, is it a weighing: One candidate promotes 6 abominations, while the other only promotes 2-3 abominations (as Matthew pointed out earlier)?

Or, does one abomination per candidate rule them both out?

And as regards the non-Catholic "lesser of two evils" schtick, since there is no necessity/compulsion to vote, how will one who votes for evil claim they had no choice?

Keeping in mind that the classic example of "double effect" is one man tied to the railroad track, while a bus of children stalls on another railroad track, and the person must make a choice to save one of the other, but cannot save both.  In choosing one, he does not will the death of the other.  But I do not see this necessity to choose present in the context of political elections (or, at least not between these two faulty candidates).

In other words, it is not clear to me that double effect is relevant here.

But the "lesser of two evils" without necessity is even on shakier ground: It is a simple matter of overlooking all the abominations of one candidate because they support their particular interest, while condemning the abominations in the other candidate.

It seems hypocritical and immoral somehow to me.
And what happened while the commie, black racist, babykilling, fag-enabler Obama was in office for eight years? where was your catholic conscience about not voting the "lesser of two evils" then? Did a real "godly" man step up for you to coose and not worry about "sinning" in doing so? No and you know it.

This is not about "sin", this is about survival. Obama desecrated everything that this country and Christianity stands for he possibly could and Hilliary was intent on furthering that agenda until the very end. until FINALLY the NORMAL people in this country had enough and put the outsider Trump in play. And THEY were furious. And THEY have for four years done EVERYTHING to get him out, including unleash a BS virus and now a virtual race war and borderline Christian pogrom.

You can rationale all you want about "sin" or double effect you want. These people, if elected, are coming for YOU and everything you have and believe in. It's that simple. This is a war, you HAVE to choose.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Donan on August 22, 2020, 07:55:41 AM
https://youtu.be/KLcfpU2cubo (https://youtu.be/KLcfpU2cubo)
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Yeti on August 22, 2020, 07:57:11 AM
This is not about "sin", this is about survival. Obama desecrated everything that this country and Christianity stands for he possibly could and Hilliary was intent on furthering that agenda until the very end. until FINALLY the NORMAL people in this country had enough and put the outsider Trump in play. And THEY were furious. And THEY have for four years done EVERYTHING to get him out, including unleash a BS virus and now a virtual race war and borderline Christian pogrom.

You can rationale all you want about "sin" or double effect you want. These people, if elected, are coming for YOU and everything you have and believe in. It's that simple. This is a war, you HAVE to choose.
This. All of this. All the above. Come on, guys, get some perspective here.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Yeti on August 22, 2020, 08:05:16 AM
One of the biggest lessons I learned in life: when 2 people or 2 sides are fighting, you do not always have a good guy. When 2 pagan tribes in Africa fight each other viciously to the death/genocide, which of the tribes is on God's side? Neither.  Which one should you go out of your way to support? Neither.
Not if you belong to one of the tribes. In that case you support your own tribe, because, if your tribe loses, you and your family will die.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Clemens Maria on August 22, 2020, 08:39:43 AM
Do you have a better alternative? No, I didn't think so.

Just sit home on election day and twiddle your thumbs while the commies and they're black racist pets take the country over.

Oh yea, THEN you'll be ready to fight when they openly come after you and your's because you just happen to be Catholic/christian, male AND white....Good luck with that.
This is already beginning in Canada where christians have been fined and jailed for simply quoting Sacred Scripture.  That is what you can expect from Biden/Harris.  And you can also expect that they will attempt (and likely succeed) in closing our churches.  They will not tolerate the existence of any institution which questions the party line.  Think peak Cancel Culture except instead of twitter storms they will be sending SWAT teams on Sunday mornings to arrest the priests and terrorize the faithful.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 22, 2020, 09:02:13 AM
Do you have a better alternative? No, I didn't think so.

Just sit home on election day and twiddle your thumbs while the commies and they're black racist pets take the country over.

Oh yea, THEN you'll be ready to fight when they openly come after you and your's because you just happen to be Catholic/christian, male AND white....Good luck with that.
Ahem, it was Trump who allowed the churches to be closed and facilitates globalism.
Republicrats have selective perception.
Trump is president today, and has America in chaos and lockdown.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Clemens Maria on August 22, 2020, 09:07:54 AM
Ahem, it was Trump who allowed the churches to be closed and facilitates globalism.
Republicrats have selective perception.
Trump is president today, and has America in chaos and lockdown.

That's a lie.  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-california-idUSKBN22W04O

Trump didn't lock down.  It was the governors.  And when Trump tried to open things up the governors threatened to sue.  So it is 100% on the governors.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 22, 2020, 09:08:16 AM
And what happened while the commie, black racist, babykilling, fag-enabler Obama was in office for eight years? where was your catholic conscience about not voting the "lesser of two evils" then? Did a real "godly" man step up for you to coose and not worry about "sinning" in doing so? No and you know it.

This is not about "sin", this is about survival. Obama desecrated everything that this country and Christianity stands for he possibly could and Hilliary was intent on furthering that agenda until the very end. until FINALLY the NORMAL people in this country had enough and put the outsider Trump in play. And THEY were furious. And THEY have for four years done EVERYTHING to get him out, including unleash a BS virus and now a virtual race war and borderline Christian pogrom.

You can rationale all you want about "sin" or double effect you want. These people, if elected, are coming for YOU and everything you have and believe in. It's that simple. This is a war, you HAVE to choose.

What happened while Obama was in office?

Answer: Pretty much the same thing as is happening while Trump is in office, except that the country is in worse shape today with Trump in office than while Obama was in.

We lost our freedoms under Trump; the country is in chaos under Trump.

Wake up: Republicrats and Democans are the problem.

Voting for either is ignorant, and perpetuates (and worsens) the problem.

They are on the same team.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 22, 2020, 09:09:08 AM
That's a lie.  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-california-idUSKBN22W04O

Trump didn't lock down.  It was the governors.  And when Trump tried to open things up the governors threatened to sue.  So it is 100% on the governors.
Do you understand the meaning of the word "ALLOWED?"

He could have overruled all the governors by executive order any time he chose.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Tradman on August 22, 2020, 09:46:23 AM
That's a lie.  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-california-idUSKBN22W04O

Trump didn't lock down.  It was the governors.  And when Trump tried to open things up the governors threatened to sue.  So it is 100% on the governors.
Trump was the first to lock down travel between China and the US and began adding countries day by day. It was a pattern set, and the governors would not have had any push to lock down in ridiculous ways unless it came from the higher ups. Scare tactics abounded including having Chrysler build ventilators, killing machines for Covid, a sham if I ever heard one. They only needed a few months to tip the country into bankruptcy and melt down for their NWO.  Only months later did Trump start talking about opening up the country even though he knew full well that Covid wasn't killing hundreds of thousands or millions much earlier. Nor does a savvy businessman print money to save the economy and thereby insuring ultimate collapse. Switzerland and other countries early on said they'd have zero lock downs and they fared quite well. If some governments knew it'd be fine, Trump knew. But Trump used Fauci to give cover and take the heat. And Fauci is still spilling verbal sewage and not in jail. And even though most wouldn't see it, Trump has always been pro gay. He's certainly pro vaccine. People need to get over hero worship and see past the fog of pretense coming out of the politics that deflected many from realizing what was really happening.    
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Tradman on August 22, 2020, 09:46:56 AM
What happened while Obama was in office?

Answer: Pretty much the same thing as is happening while Trump is in office, except that the country is in worse shape today with Trump in office than while Obama was in.

We lost our freedoms under Trump; the country is in chaos under Trump.

Wake up: Republicrats and Democans are the problem.

Voting for either is ignorant, and perpetuates (and worsens) the problem.

They are on the same team.
Exactly
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on August 22, 2020, 09:57:47 AM
What happened while Obama was in office?

Answer: Pretty much the same thing as is happening while Trump is in office, except that the country is in worse shape today with Trump in office than while Obama was in.

We lost our freedoms under Trump; the country is in chaos under Trump.

Wake up: Republicrats and Democans are the problem.

Voting for either is ignorant, and perpetuates (and worsens) the problem.

They are on the same team.
I agree that both parties are a big part of the problem, but Trump is nominally a Republican. His own party hates him. How do you reconcile that with him being part of the conspiracy?
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Matto on August 22, 2020, 10:18:36 AM
I agree that both parties are a big part of the problem, but Trump is nominally a Republican. His own party hates him. How do you reconcile that with him being part of the conspiracy?

They pretend to hate him because they know that will help him win because nobody trusts the media or the political parties anymore. They think they are all pedophiles and devil worshipers. So by casting Trump as an outsider, he won. 
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Tradman on August 22, 2020, 11:13:46 AM
They pretend to hate him because they know that will help him win because nobody trusts the media or the political parties anymore. They think they are all pedophiles and devil worshipers. So by casting Trump as an outsider, he won.
This is the only reasonable answer for all that has transpired.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: St Frumentius on August 22, 2020, 11:24:58 AM


Trump didn't lock down.  It was the governors.  And when Trump tried to open things up the governors threatened to sue.  So it is 100% on the governors.

A simple executive order by Trump can override anything done by governors. Trump allowed infringement upon our rights defined and protected by the Amendments, including the freedom to assemble for worship (1st Amendment).

Trump plays the innocent one, and the target and victim, but he's part of the Club enslaving and destroying America.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Matto on August 22, 2020, 11:34:07 AM
This is the only reasonable answer for all that has transpired.

Trump pretends to hate the swamp and the swamp pretends to hate Trump. You don't make it in Jew York real estate to the point of being a billionaire without being a part of the swamp.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 22, 2020, 12:12:35 PM
Many of you are trying to apply catholic principles (voting) to an uncatholic situation (99% of those in govt).  Abstain from voting if you want, but God gave us common sense to judge things on a practical level, if catholic principles don't/can't apply.  As Alaric said, we're living in a psuedo-war, a preliminary war, a cultural war.  Wartime changes your perspective from idealism (normal morality) to practical (doing the best with what you have).  You choose the best candidate, ...or...you choose AGAINST the worst candidate. 
.
The wartime/common sense principles to judge candidates are:
1) Access to church
2) Access to weapons
3) Rule of Law and stopping anarchy in the streets
4) Protections of food from national shortages
5) Promotion of peace instead of war; bringing home troops
6) Protection of borders
.
The lines are clear between who has supported the above and who hasn't.  Don't let catholic principles get in the way of common sense.  Wartime morality is different from peaceful morality. 
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 22, 2020, 12:22:34 PM
Many of you are trying to apply catholic principles (voting) to an uncatholic situation (99% of those in govt).  Abstain from voting if you want, but God gave us common sense to judge things on a practical level, if catholic principles don't/can't apply.  As Alaric said, we're living in a psuedo-war, a preliminary war, a cultural war.  Wartime changes your perspective from idealism (normal morality) to practical (doing the best with what you have).  You choose the best candidate, ...or...you choose AGAINST the worst candidate.  
.
The wartime/common sense principles to judge candidates are:
1) Access to church
2) Access to weapons
3) Rule of Law and stopping anarchy in the streets
4) Protections of food from national shortages
5) Promotion of peace instead of war; bringing home troops
6) Protection of borders
.
The lines are clear between who has supported the above and who hasn't.  Don't let catholic principles get in the way of common sense.  Wartime morality is different from peaceful morality.
Of your list, Trump has only succeeded in #2.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 22, 2020, 12:31:44 PM
Quote
Voting for either is ignorant, and perpetuates (and worsens) the problem.
No, because not voting doesn’t change anything.  You are rightly complaining about “the system” and how it’s corrupt.  I agree.  But you can’t avoid the system; we are way beyond that point.  
.
If you had made your argument 50 yrs ago, in the 70s, there was a shot to change things.  Barry Goldwater was super popular and was a force for 3rd party respect but he died (accidentally!) in a plane crash.  Sorry, that option is gone in our day. 
.
In war times, if you’re starving, and you find a can of chicken on a Friday, you are allowed to eat meat on Friday.  To NOT eat it, and die, might be a sin of some kind - an excess against the virtue of religion and common sense. And it would certainly be stupid. 
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 22, 2020, 12:35:15 PM

Quote
Of your list, Trump has only succeeded in #2.
That list applies to Trump/many (but not all) Republicans (ie Red State governors).
.
Trump can’t affect all of those 6 in equal ways, because there’s a thing called “states rights” which still exist, and the idea that Trump can rule by executive order on anything is so retardedly wrong, I can’t believe I have to say it. 
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 22, 2020, 12:40:33 PM
I don't see how it is "NOW" a sin to vote for Trump?  We have known for a long time that he's pro-sodomite.

So this doesn't really change things.

There's still a possibility to argue from double effect.  Someone might vote for Trump because, for instance, it's likely that Ginsberg will either retire or receive her eternal reward within the next term.

Even if an anti-sodomite President were elected, it's not as if anyone is going to outlaw sodomy anytime soon.

But I've been pushing back against double effect precisely on the grounds that if it's evil to vote for a a pro-sodomite candidate, then you can't do it even if the other guy is worse.  I'm not sure whether it's OK to divide a candidate by his positions.  I am voting for anti-abortion Trump but not pro-sodomite Trump.

This is something that the trained moral theologians really should deal with more; it's a neglected area of theology.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 22, 2020, 12:41:06 PM
Quote
He could have overruled all the governors by executive order any time he chose.

This is 1000% wrong.  My governor is a liberal psycho.  Aside from Trump declaring marshall law, there's nothing he can do to affect my state.  Trump is not a monarch.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Matto on August 22, 2020, 12:43:09 PM
Trump can’t affect all of those 6 in equal ways, because there’s a thing called “states rights” which still exist, and the idea that Trump can rule by executive order on anything is so retardedly wrong, I can’t believe I have to say it.

States rights only exist when it is time for Republicans to make excuses for why they do not enact good policy. When Democrats are in power or Republicans do evil things, states rights never seem to exist.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 22, 2020, 12:44:12 PM
This is 1000% wrong.  My governor is a liberal psycho.  Aside from Trump declaring marshall law, there's nothing he can do to affect my state.  Trump is not a monarch.
Nope.
He could have cut off federal aid for highways or any number of other federal aid packages.
He chose not to.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 22, 2020, 12:53:06 PM

Quote
He could have cut off federal aid for highways or any number of other federal aid packages.
He chose not to.

Ahhh...but first you said he could just issue an 'executive order'.  Now you're saying he has to use passive-aggressive tactics?
.
So if POTUS cut federal aid packages, there would've been legal battles, and the cuts to $ would've been put on hold through legal injunctions by liberal judges, and, in the meantime, liberal governors would continue to order everyone around.
.
What you're saying has been tried before, in other scenarios.  It's effective in negotiations with congress, but not in making quick changes at the state level.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 22, 2020, 12:57:54 PM
Ahhh...but first you said he could just issue an 'executive order'.  Now you're saying he has to use passive-aggressive tactics?

No: First I named one method of compulsion, then I named another.
Trump passed on them all.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Matto on August 22, 2020, 01:08:19 PM
This is 1000% wrong.  My governor is a liberal psycho.  Aside from Trump declaring marshall law, there's nothing he can do to affect my state.  Trump is not a monarch.
What do you think would happen if one of the red state governors tried to segregate public schools? Federal troops would be on the ground in minutes and it would be stopped immediately. Why did the same thing not happen to "sanctuary cities?" Because the Republicans are just as bad as the democrats, they just have pretend to be decent.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on August 22, 2020, 01:08:39 PM
Trump pretends to hate the swamp and the swamp pretends to hate Trump. You don't make it in Jew York real estate to the point of being a billionaire without being a part of the swamp.
For this to be true, Trump would have to be an excellent actor. He is a horrible actor. Watch clips of him acting and you will see how true that is.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Tradman on August 22, 2020, 01:15:42 PM
This is 1000% wrong.  My governor is a liberal psycho.  Aside from Trump declaring marshall law, there's nothing he can do to affect my state.  Trump is not a monarch.
No, Trump is no monarch, but he never condemned the heavy handed actions of governors, but went along, often encouraging lock downs.   
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on August 22, 2020, 01:19:25 PM
I don't see how it is "NOW" a sin to vote for Trump?  We have known for a long time that he's pro-sodomite.

So this doesn't really change things.

There's still a possibility to argue from double effect.  Someone might vote for Trump because, for instance, it's likely that Ginsberg will either retire or receive her eternal reward within the next term.

Even if an anti-sodomite President were elected, it's not as if anyone is going to outlaw sodomy anytime soon.

But I've been pushing back against double effect precisely on the grounds that if it's evil to vote for a a pro-sodomite candidate, then you can't do it even if the other guy is worse.  I'm not sure whether it's OK to divide a candidate by his positions.  I am voting for anti-abortion Trump but not pro-sodomite Trump.

This is something that the trained moral theologians really should deal with more; it's a neglected area of theology.
Good points, Lad. So I take it that you have now decided to vote for Trump?
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 22, 2020, 01:23:15 PM

Quote
No, Trump is no monarch, but he never condemned the heavy handed actions of governors,

What are you talking about?  He's condemned them about 1,000x.  You'll only hear about it in the alt media.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on August 22, 2020, 01:23:58 PM
Nope.
He could have cut off federal aid for highways or any number of other federal aid packages.
He chose not to.
So the Republicans can join with the Democrats and do impeachment 2.0? Yeah, there are many thing I would have done differently had I been in power, but then again I probably wouldn’t have lasted a week.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 22, 2020, 01:30:14 PM
Quote
What do you think would happen if one of the red state governors tried to segregate public schools? Federal troops would be on the ground in minutes and it would be stopped immediately. Why did the same thing not happen to "sanctuary cities?"

Segregation of schools is a federal law, so POTUS can enforce. 
.
Sanctuary cities is a gray area, that has gone through the court system, because it involves Federal immigration law but also state's rights.  Federal regulation has mostly prevailed but still not 100%.
.
The issue of masks, church closings, distancing, etc all falls under state law, depending on the powers each state has given to its governor and its health officials during a 'health emergency' (usually a 30-45 day declaration by the governor, during which he has very wide powers).  Each state is different and the federal govt is largely unable to affect this, unless marshall law is declared (which is an unprecedented step, and could still be challenged in the courts).
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 22, 2020, 01:42:54 PM
And just below that SSPX blurb is this concerning piece:

"However, it can be permissible to tolerate the lesser of two evils for a proportionate reason [without necessity? -SJ], and such toleration can be for the common good, precisely because it is the lesser of two evils. Thus it is possible to vote or even campaign for a candidate whose platform contains evils with which we do not agree. Everything depends upon a hierarchy of the most important values and issues taking priority over lesser ones.

For a Catholic, there can be no doubt that the issues that take the highest priority must be the moral issues, and not personal or economic issues. The whole continuation of society as we know it depends upon this, and those who deny the most basic principles of the natural order are bringing about an unheard of perversion. Consequently, it is permissible and prudent to vote on the one single issue of proscribing abortion, or forbidding same-sex marriages, or putting an end to euthanasia, or freedom of the Catholic Church to run educational institutions. All of these issues are of the utmost importance. Consequently, it would be permissible and prudent to vote for a candidate who promotes an unjust war, on the basis of one or other of these issues. Consequently, it is likewise permissible to vote for a candidate who is known to be a Freemason, although Freemasonry is an evil society condemned by the Church and opposed to the Catholic Church, if he maintains an important principle of the natural law such as the evil of abortion.

Lesser issues are also of moral importance, such as the justice or injustice of a particular war, or the paying of a just wage to employees, maintaining the right to private property by limiting government intervention, and so on. All other things being equal, one could vote on the basis of such issues. However, it would be wrong to vote for a candidate who has a correct position on one of these issues, but a perverse and wrong position on a more important issue.

Consequently, it would be manifestly immoral and sinful to vote for a candidate who pretends to be Catholic, but who in fact is pro-abortion, pro-gay, or pro-euthanasia."
How do the Trumpers respond to this^^^^
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: St Frumentius on August 22, 2020, 01:52:49 PM
Segregation of schools is a federal law, so POTUS can enforce. 
.
Sanctuary cities is a gray area, that has gone through the court system, because it involves Federal immigration law but also state's rights.  Federal regulation has mostly prevailed but still not 100%.

No, it's not. An illegal alien is, ipso facto, a criminal and not a citizen of the U.S., hence, they're afforded no rights as Americans. By your logic, the Seat of Peter would have to rule whether or not a Muslim is a member of the Catholic Church and thus has salvation when he dies, when the Church has already infallibly defined that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church and one who dies a Muslim is damned forever.

Quote
The issue [.], church closings, [...] all falls under state law, depending on the powers each state has given to its governor and its health officials during a 'health emergency' (usually a 30-45 day declaration by the governor, during which he has very wide powers). 
You're wrong. It's a 1st Amendment issue. Trump allowed governors to violate our 1st Amendment rights.
Obama issued more executive orders than all previous presidents combined. The least Trump could do is use the stroke of a pen to protect our rights with an EO that all churches remain open. We elected Trump to represent and protect us. He has failed.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 22, 2020, 02:17:48 PM
https://youtu.be/KLcfpU2cubo (https://youtu.be/KLcfpU2cubo)
This footage is way back in 92 and very vague at best what the dynamic was at the party.


Do you really believe that Trump knew what Epstein was in 92? At some random gathering and had a few laughs? Really?


Where were you in 92? what if they had a camera on you Bs'ing with a guy whom you had no idea he was a big as scumbag as we found out DECADES later and they wanted to pull that footage on you like you and jew-stein were old buddies having a few laughs? ( about raping adolescents I would assume as well)


That NBC film footage from the early 90's PROVES nothing.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 22, 2020, 02:22:42 PM
If the Left one don't get you then the Right one will. Never fails every time. Trump was not a "good" candidate and he has not been a "good" President. His only strength is that he looks better next to his opponents. That's where it starts and ends for me. All the Republican party is any good at is playing one-step back in a two-step forward progressive game.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 22, 2020, 02:24:03 PM
This is already beginning in Canada where christians have been fined and jailed for simply quoting Sacred Scripture.  That is what you can expect from Biden/Harris.  And you can also expect that they will attempt (and likely succeed) in closing our churches.  They will not tolerate the existence of any institution which questions the party line.  Think peak Cancel Culture except instead of twitter storms they will be sending SWAT teams on Sunday mornings to arrest the priests and terrorize the faithful.
I still have family in the City (NY), which is turning into a third world Sh*thole overnight and a terrorist state.
I'm currently in upstate. My family had to go through checkpoints to get here. CHECKPOINTS!

We might as well be in East Germany ffs!

I'm sorry, but people better wake the hell up.And if you're not in NY and think Trump's the "bad guy", you better do more research. We are living in an authoritarian, communist bloc right now. I dare you to believe it.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: songbird on August 22, 2020, 02:26:44 PM
I agree, Trump is letting us down.  It seems to me, all or most of our presidents have been Masons/impious jew followers.  It also seems to me that Trump started out some what ok and then he is now showing us his other side or true colors.

Republicans can say the they are, but they are sitting on the fence to lean either way it fits them.

This does not surprise me.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Yeti on August 22, 2020, 02:27:29 PM
I still have family in the City (NY), which is turning into a third world Sh*thole overnight and a terrorist state.
I'm currently in upstate. My family had to go through checkpoints to get here. CHECKPOINTS!

We might as well be in East Germany ffs!

I'm sorry, but people better wake the hell up.And if you're not in NY and think Trump's the "bad guy", you better do more research. We are living in an authoritarian, communist bloc right now. I dare you to believe it.
Were these checkpoints to get into the city, or to get out of it? And what did the guards want at the checkpoints? Will your family be able to get back into NYC? This is very disturbing. A few more details would be very interesting ... :popcorn:
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Donan on August 22, 2020, 02:28:04 PM
This footage is way back in 92 and very vague at best what the dynamic was at the party.


Do you really believe that Trump knew what Epstein was in 92? At some random gathering and had a few laughs? Really?


Where were you in 92? what if they had a camera on you Bs'ing with a guy whom you had no idea he was a big as scumbag as we found out DECADES later and they wanted to pull that footage on you like you and jew-stein were old buddies having a few laughs? ( about raping adolescents I would assume as well)


That NBC film footage from the early 90's PROVES nothing.
“I’ve known Jeff for fifteen years. Terrific guy. He’s a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side.” - Donald Trump, 2002
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Yeti on August 22, 2020, 02:28:35 PM
I agree, Trump is letting us down.  It seems to me, all or most of our presidents have been Masons/impious jew followers.  It also seems to me that Trump started out some what ok and then he is now showing us his other side or true colors.

Republicans can say the they are, but they are sitting on the fence to lean either way it fits them.

This does not surprise me.
Oh man, if you think Trump is bad, just wait for Biden to get in there. :facepalm:
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Donan on August 22, 2020, 02:30:41 PM
Giuliani and Trump, what a pair they make!

https://youtu.be/4IrE6FMpai8 (https://youtu.be/4IrE6FMpai8)
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 22, 2020, 02:32:18 PM
Quote
No, it's not. An illegal alien is, ipso facto, a criminal and not a citizen of the U.S., hence, they're afforded no rights as Americans.

Immigration is a complex issue due to numerous court cases.  If it was as clear cut as you say, then sanctuary cities wouldn't have come about to begin with.  But they did.  Obviously, liberal judges allowed such to happen, which your arguments ignore, because you assume that everyone views this situation in the same way.  You're just arguing idealism while ignoring reality.
.

Quote
You're wrong. It's a 1st Amendment issue. Trump allowed governors to violate our 1st Amendment rights.

It's not that simple.  Again, there is legal precedent for closing churches back when the 1918 flu happened.  I don't agree with it, i'm just saying it's happened before.  The cat is already out of the bag.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 22, 2020, 02:36:37 PM
Ahem, it was Trump who allowed the churches to be closed and facilitates globalism.
Republicrats have selective perception.
Trump is president today, and has America in chaos and lockdown.
No, it was the faggot governor here in USSNY. Trump went along at the time because of all the hysteria and no one was sure exactly what the hell was going on with COVERT-19, so there was some apprehension at federal and state levels.

Actually, it was the queers in the Church hierarchy that made the call first, BEFORE the state even locked down the churches.


Yes Trump was the president, but again, you have to look into the context of the time and everything that was going on regarding the "virus", there was a atmosphere of fear and terror. Even Trump's people were advising him to take caution, especially the little rat Fauci and scarf-lady. These were the so-called "experts" on pandemics and giving him advice to contain it. So, he had to go along at the time, otherwise they would have accused him of being responsible for the deaths of MILLIONS. this is exactly where they wanted him, COMPROMISED and at their mercy. Until, him and his staff began to figure out a way out of the nonsense.


Trump actually had to shut down the greatest economy in the history of this country.

A guy with his ego and business savoy. Do you really freakin think he wanted to do that?
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 22, 2020, 02:37:13 PM
The choice is basically similar to WW2:  Churchill/Roosevelt's socialism or Stalin's death camps.  You guys can complain all you want about Trump, but if you elect Biden (due to your inaction/non-voting), then you'll die due to WW3, starvation, or in a FEMA camp.  That's the choice we face.  Accept it or not.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Matto on August 22, 2020, 02:44:32 PM
Perhaps we should choose martyrdom instead of being complicit in sin. That's hard, though. At the rate the world is going I think pretty soon it would be better to be in a FEMA camp than to live among all the unrepentant murderers and blasphemers and onanists and sodomites. I am almost looking forward to making my rosary out of spare string and stale bread and trying to convert the evangelical cellmates to Catholicism in the down-time between hard labor and torture. I don't know if I'm being serious.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 22, 2020, 02:48:44 PM
The choice is basically similar to WW2:  Churchill/Roosevelt's socialism or Stalin's death camps.  You guys can complain all you want about Trump, but if you elect Biden (due to your inaction/non-voting), then you'll die due to WW3, starvation, or in a FEMA camp.  That's the choice we face.  Accept it or not.
Absolutely. these guys think they're safe because they live in rural America and have a few weapons with  limited rounds of ammo and stockpiles of food for a few months or even years. Guess what , it's not going to matter.

The farmers in Russia thought the same thing until the Bolsheviks came to collectivize their farms.

And when they didn't go along with the program it was PROGROM.

They were massacred or died of starvation on their own farms. The irony.

This demonic jew commie virus knows no limitations to genocide ANYONE who doesn't go along.


And I don't care how far away you live or how many weapons you have. Once they come in full force, you are DONE.

That's why we have to stop them NOW!
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on August 22, 2020, 02:53:22 PM
How do the Trumpers respond to this^^^^
I’m not a “Trumper”, but a thinking Catholic intellectual realist. The SSPX’s position on this and a buck will give you a cup of coffee at McDonald’s. 
BTW: How is it that a fellow who writes a book condemning the SSPX for becoming modernist suddenly uses their arguments to defend his position?  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 22, 2020, 02:53:52 PM
Giuliani and Trump, what a pair they make!

https://youtu.be/4IrE6FMpai8 (https://youtu.be/4IrE6FMpai8)
It's a damn roast and a joke

.
Again, totally taken out of context.

 
Although, I don't ever agree with the cross dressing crap, even in jest.


But you're really reaching here. You gotta do better than decades old garbage fun flicks.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Donan on August 22, 2020, 02:56:23 PM
It's a damn roast and a joke

.
Again, totally taken out of context.

 
Although, I don't ever agree with the cross dressing crap, even in jest.


But you're really reaching here. You gotta do better than decades old garbage fun flicks.
Shows his character. Anyway, is this recent enough for you?
https://youtu.be/JLXFgtbl-80 (https://youtu.be/JLXFgtbl-80)
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 22, 2020, 02:56:32 PM
I’m not a “Trumper”, but a thinking Catholic intellectual realist. The SSPX’s position on this and a buck will give you a cup of coffee at McDonald’s.
BTW: How is it that a fellow who writes a book condemning the SSPX for becoming modernist suddenly uses their arguments to defend his position?  :facepalm:
Good ol Double Effect one would assume. ::)
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 22, 2020, 03:01:01 PM
Shows his character. Anyway, is this recent enough for you?
https://youtu.be/JLXFgtbl-80 (https://youtu.be/JLXFgtbl-80)
Context? I don't even know the time frame or when this video was done.

And besides, we have this little thing in America called Due Process......you know, laws and courts and that kind of thing before we send people to the gallows.

What do you expect the POTUS to say on this before she's had her day in court? Off with there head?

Flush out your head gear new guy.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Donan on August 22, 2020, 03:03:11 PM
Context? I don't even know the time frame or when this video was done.

And besides, we have this little thing in America called Due Process......you know, laws and courts and that kind of thing before we send people to the gallows.

What do you expect the POTUS to say on this before she's had her day in court? Off with there head?

Flush out your head gear new guy.
New Guy? What are you twelve years old? Get help for your cognitive dissonance. 
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Tradman on August 22, 2020, 03:06:57 PM
What are you talking about?  He's condemned them about 1,000x.  You'll only hear about it in the alt media.
Trump condemned no lock downs in the first two months.  
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Tradman on August 22, 2020, 03:10:40 PM
Perhaps we should choose martyrdom instead of being complicit in sin. That's hard, though. At the rate the world is going I think pretty soon it would be better to be in a FEMA camp than to live among all the unrepentant murderers and blasphemers and onanists and sodomites. I am almost looking forward to making my rosary out of spare string and stale bread and trying to convert the evangelical cellmates to Catholicism in the down-time between hard labor and torture. I don't know if I'm being serious.
This really is the point.  We must choose martyrdom because a teeny tiny bit of incense is death.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 22, 2020, 03:13:40 PM
Were these checkpoints to get into the city, or to get out of it? And what did the guards want at the checkpoints? Will your family be able to get back into NYC? This is very disturbing. A few more details would be very interesting ... :popcorn:
I believe coming in. there were "random" checks. But if you had out of state plates, pull over and mandated quarantine.
If not, 10 thousand dollar fine. Let me repeat that. 10 THOUSAND DOLLARS.


I'm telling you it's getting crazy. my family's trying to sell their house and get the hell out of there. Real estate in NYC is plunging right now, I heard 30%. THAT IS INSANE! I lived there through 911 and never anything like that.Ever.


Diblasio, Covert-19 and the commies are killing the greatest city in the country, if not the world right now. Manhattan is a ghost town, it's eery, something out of sci-fi film, but it's REAL. I'm telling you this commie BS is real!

And they want no one getting out. 


As a matter of fact, I've heard that in commie California, where people are Running out of as well, they are proposing that you PAY TEN YEARS TAXES BEFORE YOU SELL AND LEAVE YOUR HOUSE. This is what these commies are trying to sell.


This sh*t is real and if you think Trump is pushing this........I got a bridge in Brooklyn I can sell you.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 22, 2020, 03:41:08 PM
Can we at least get a round of applause for what a great job Trump has done for Da Jewz and Da Gayz and Herodian serial marriages?


(https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/106153293-1569608072039gettyimages-962171754.jpeg?v=1569608093)


(https://i.insider.com/5ee8e8d81918242467495a04?width=911&format=jpeg)


(https://yve-style.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Donald-Trump%E2%80%99s-Wives.jpg)


(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/72e8e6b90d4a1ced3c179ad105dd45afe1f9675e/0_137_2465_1479/master/2465.jpg?width=1200&height=1200&quality=85&auto=format&fit=crop&s=9384db97b860470c0a248841cab60d2a)


(https://static.politico.com/10/1d/8a7a26d5410891619aad844958b4/20160909-donald-trump-bill-clinton-7-high-rez.jpg)


(https://images.jpost.com/image/upload/f_auto,fl_lossy/t_JD_ArticleMainImageFaceDetect/462218)


He's gonna convert any minute right? 


(https://images.haarets.co.il/image/fetch/https://www.haaretz.co.il/polopoly_fs/1.8680264!/image/2867922916.jpg)

I can just feel it!
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 22, 2020, 04:18:07 PM

Quote
Trump condemned no lock downs in the first two months.  
Ahh, now you’re backtracking and complaining about *only* the first 2 months, when no one knew what was going on or how deadly the virus was.  Well, they had lockdowns in 1918 too until the flu died down.  The problem is not the lockdown but the duration of it.  It didn’t work so it should be stopped, as Trump has been saying.
.
No matter what anyone says, you people will complain about any politician because no one is perfect.  I think you just like to complain.  
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Matto on August 22, 2020, 04:24:11 PM
No matter what anyone says, you people will complain about any politician because no one is perfect.  I think you just like to complain.  

Do you think Donald Trump is in the state of sanctifying grace?
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Yeti on August 22, 2020, 04:26:40 PM
Well, they had lockdowns in 1918 too until the flu died down.  The problem is not the lockdown but the duration of it.
.
I've seen people make this claim, but I haven't seen any evidence for it. All I've seen is that theaters, churches, bars, dance halls, and other places of public gathering were closed during Spanish Flu. I have yet to see any evidence that:
.
Stores were closed.
Offices and factories were closed.
Restaurants were closed except for take-out.
People were ordered to stay within their homes except to go to the grocery store or a couple of other exceptions.
People were told they could not go to the house of a family member or friend except to provide urgently-needed medical care.
People could not invite anyone over to their house.
People were ordered not to take exercise even out of doors except within their immediate neighborhood.
.
However, this past year ALL of these things were mandated in most states of this country. Indeed, for several months, most of the human race was living under substantially the same rules as what I provided, something without precedent in 6,000 years of human history, and that no one could ever imagine was even possible.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 22, 2020, 04:28:14 PM

Quote
Do you think Donald Trump is in the state of sanctifying grace?

It doesn't freaking matter!!  We don't live in a catholic country; we don't have catholic laws; we don't have catholic politicians!  WAKE UP TO THIS REALITY.  Stop measuring politicians by the catholic measuring stick and BE THANKFUL for those politicians who AREN'T COMMUNIST and who DON'T WANT TO KILL YOU.  Because most every other country (besides Russia, Hungary and Poland) would LOVE to have Trump.  They have communism and hate it.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 22, 2020, 04:31:14 PM

Quote
However, this past year ALL of these things were mandated in most states BLUE STATES of this country.

Fixed it.  Most of the limitations you complain about happened in blue states.  Republican states were not very shut down, and if they were, not for long.
 
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 22, 2020, 04:31:45 PM
Guys, I think it's working... any second now... God isn't a joke to him after all!

(https://im-media.voltron.voanews.com/Drupal/01live-166/styles/sourced/s3/ap-images/2020/01/9b2a0168c24be9482f39a46fb6a27205.jpg?itok=Ta2MxHDv)

He's not like any other politician!

(https://philebersole.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/trumpsclintonsgettyimages-843167781438806851.jpg)

You just see his conversion taking place...

(https://townsquare.media/site/812/files/2015/11/Trump-Drake1.jpg?w=980&q=75)
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 22, 2020, 04:36:12 PM
Croixalist, you can complain all you want about Trump, but save your energy for Biden.  Don't want you to wear yourself out.  Then again, Biden will probably limit your electricity usage, because of climate change laws, so you won't be able to use a computer the few months before you're rounded up in a FEMA camp.  As you're separated from your family, you'll still be muttering something about "...at least I didn't vote for Trump.  I feel so much better now."
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Yeti on August 22, 2020, 04:41:33 PM
Fixed it.  Most of the limitations you complain about happened in blue states.  Republican states were not very shut down, and if they were, not for long.
 
.
So do you have any evidence that people were placed under house arrest during the Spanish Flu, or that businesses and workshops were forced to close? Lockdowns as they existed earlier this year (and still exist in some parts of this country) did not, as far as I know, take place during the Spanish Flu.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Matto on August 22, 2020, 04:49:25 PM
It doesn't freaking matter!!  We don't live in a catholic country; we don't have catholic laws; we don't have catholic politicians!  WAKE UP TO THIS REALITY.  Stop measuring politicians by the catholic measuring stick and BE THANKFUL for those politicians who AREN'T COMMUNIST and who DON'T WANT TO KILL YOU.  Because most every other country (besides Russia, Hungary and Poland) would LOVE to have Trump.  They have communism and hate it.
I am awake. Souls are going to hell like snowflakes. Trump is not making the country God-fearing and holy. What percentage of the American public do you think is Catholic and isn't a sexual pervert? What is the point in torturing us in this world if the Jews know we will be tortured forever in hell because the world is so evil that one has to distance themselves completely from it to stay out of mortal sin? The country is more wicked today than it was three and a half years ago when he took office. The question I have is "what percentage of the public will be saved when they die." If the answer is "of adults above the age of reason, less than 1 percent" then I don't see any reason in voting for that man. He is the king of Sodomy and Usury, but you better vote for him or else Biden will throw us all in FEMA camps.

I won't say don't vote for him but he is merely slow poison instead of a guillotine.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 22, 2020, 04:49:49 PM
Quote
So do you have any evidence that people were placed under house arrest during the Spanish Flu, or that businesses and workshops were forced to close? Lockdowns as they existed earlier this year (and still exist in some parts of this country) did not, as far as I know, take place during the Spanish Flu.

All the bad things you talk about did not happen in every state, nor to the same degree.  The Blue States used the Spanish Flu precedent and put lockdowns on steroids.  Red States did not.  This has nothing to do with Trump.  The feds "advised" social distancing, work from home, etc, but it was the STATES WHO LOCKED THINGS DOWN.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 22, 2020, 04:52:32 PM
Matto, so will things be BETTER for religion and your soul, when Biden declares martial law and closes all churches?  If you think it's bad now, how much worse will it get?  Don't you see the alternative is infinitely worse?
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Matto on August 22, 2020, 04:56:09 PM
Matto, so will things be BETTER for religion and your soul, when Biden declares martial law and closes all churches?  If you think it's bad now, how much worse will it get?  Don't you see the alternative is infinitely worse?
Yes, the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church. There is a good chance that more souls will be saved under Biden's persecution than under Trump 2.0. Will the millions of Q anon patriots and all of them masturbate or use birth control be saved?

My main point is I think we are being offered slow poison or the guillotine. Choose the poison if you want but don't lick the boots of the man who offers you that "mercy."
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Yeti on August 22, 2020, 04:56:33 PM
All the bad things you talk about did not happen in every state, nor to the same degree.  The Blue States used the Spanish Flu precedent and put lockdowns on steroids.  Red States did not.  This has nothing to do with Trump.  The feds "advised" social distancing, work from home, etc, but it was the STATES WHO LOCKED THINGS DOWN.
I think we're talking about different things here. You said that there were lockdowns during the Spanish Flu. I said there were not, or at least I have never seen evidence there were. Now I'm not clear if you are maintaining your original claim or are backing off of it, and you are talking about state politics and President Trump and other issues I did not bring up when I disputed your claim about the Spanish Flu. So, were there lockdowns during the Spanish Flu or not?
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Yeti on August 22, 2020, 05:00:12 PM
You know what, Pax, it's not important. I think I'm derailing this thread. Sorry to get into it with you. This seems like it has been a stressful afternoon for some people, and certainly for me too. Have a great weekend! :cowboy:
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Tradman on August 22, 2020, 05:03:03 PM
I am awake. Souls are going to hell like snowflakes. Trump is not making the country God-fearing and holy. What percentage of the American public do you think is Catholic and isn't a sexual pervert? What is the point in torturing us in this world if the Jews know we will be tortured forever in hell because the world is so evil that one has to distance themselves completely from it to stay out of mortal sin? The country is more wicked today than it was three and a half years ago when he took office. The question I have is "what percentage of the public will be saved when they die." If the answer is "of adults above the age of reason, less than 1 percent" then I don't see any reason in voting for that man. He is the king of Sodomy and Usury, but you better vote for him or else Biden will throw us all in FEMA camps.

I won't say don't vote for him but he is merely slow poison instead of a guillotine.
You said: "He (Trump) is the king of Sodomy and Usury, but you better vote for him or else Biden will throw us all in FEMA camps."
I disagree.  Trump is extremely talented in collecting votes from the enemy-- that is, the Christian natural law type person.  He is exactly what the Satanic manipulators need in order to carry on the big plan.  Biden would flub the end game and good people might win. Trump is smart, talented, capable and able to act.  Perfect leader to complete the task.     
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 22, 2020, 05:03:12 PM

It doesn't freaking matter!!  We don't live in a catholic country; we don't have catholic laws; we don't have catholic politicians!  WAKE UP TO THIS REALITY.  Stop measuring politicians by the catholic measuring stick and BE THANKFUL for those politicians who AREN'T COMMUNIST and who DON'T WANT TO KILL YOU.  Because most every other country (besides Russia, Hungary and Poland) would LOVE to have Trump.  They have communism and hate it.

And if the ancient Jews clamored for a foreign King to rule over them, I'm sure God would totally understand!

(https://piercingtruths.files.wordpress.com/2019/08/we-have-no-king-but-caesar1.jpg)


You know, I think you might be on to something. Trump might as well be Jesus Christ next to Biden. Since God ALWAYS WORKS THROUGH DEMOCRACY, we can only conclude that there must be a candidate that must be voted for in every single election. Not to stave off evil but to kind of slow it down like a mediocre katechonic colander. It's really important for Catholics who hate both candidates to pick the lesser evil to prevent the greater evil. It works for everything. Clearly, Trump is a St. Louis in the making, not a modern day Dathan of the people or a Barabbas. Better yet, he's a Cyrus!


(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/aa/26/e0/aa26e036bc91770b69f4655e8384de8e.jpg)


A shekel for your thoughts!

And don't you worry, I truly despise Biden and I will always find the energy for him!


I am awake. Souls are going to hell like snowflakes. Trump is not making the country God-fearing and holy. What percentage of the American public do you think is Catholic and isn't a sexual pervert? What is the point in torturing us in this world if the Jews know we will be tortured forever in hell because the world is so evil that one has to distance themselves completely from it to stay out of mortal sin? The country is more wicked today than it was three and a half years ago when he took office. The question I have is "what percentage of the public will be saved when they die." If the answer is "of adults above the age of reason, less than 1 percent" then I don't see any reason in voting for that man. He is the king of Sodomy and Usury, but you better vote for him or else Biden will throw us all in FEMA camps.

I won't say don't vote for him but he is merely slow poison instead of a guillotine.

Matto for Pres!

:)
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 22, 2020, 05:11:27 PM

Quote
All I've seen is that theaters, churches, bars, dance halls, and other places of public gathering were closed during Spanish Flu. 
Yeti, your original comment above is the definition of a “lockdown”.  Some blue states went much further and had “house arrests” but many states did not.  
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 22, 2020, 05:14:48 PM
Quote
There is a good chance that more souls will be saved under Biden's persecution than under Trump 2.0.
A political persecution isn’t martyrdom.  So Biden won’t send people to heaven, just death in fema camps.  And the many who are immoral will curse God as they die. 
.
Did morality increase during Obama’s presidency?  Nope.  So your hopes are unfounded.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Matto on August 22, 2020, 05:45:47 PM
A political persecution isn’t martyrdom.  So Biden won’t send people to heaven, just death in fema camps.  And the many who are immoral will curse God as they die.
.
Did morality increase during Obama’s presidency?  Nope.  So your hopes are unfounded.

For those who die in FEMA camps for morality and the Catholic faith, it would be a glorious martyrdom. For the Q-tards who die for their guns and for their bald eagles and for their "freedoms", then yes, they will die in vain. But Obama didn't martyr anyone, the FEMA camps remained empty. So my theory has not been tested. I am not looking forward to the FEMA camps, if they come, but at this point I see Trump as a false hope. I think what will happen is that he will win and in the four years of his second term, society will go further down the road to hell until we will look back on the Obama years as happy times. We all know if Trump were any good, that Taylor Marshall would not support him. (That's a joke).

One thing that gives me hope is that more young people are learning about the Latin Mass since it is more readily available and learning about the true faith, first through the indult and then the SSPX or the sede groups. Say what you want about the SSPX selling out, they have a large aposotlate and the resistance is unavailable to most people so it is not an option for most people.

I think much higher of the Trump supporters on the far right than of Trump himself. The kind who want to do good things like ban sodomy and pornography and abortion and even usury and encourage marriage and normal healthy families, but those people do not have any power.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Yeti on August 22, 2020, 05:50:06 PM
For those who die in FEMA camps for morality and the Catholic faith, it would be a glorious martyrdom.
.
No, Pax is saying that nobody will be in a FEMA camp out of hatred for morality and the Faith. They will be there for refusing a vaccine or some other political reason.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 22, 2020, 06:01:27 PM
New Guy? What are you twelve years old? Get help for your cognitive dissonance.
Yea, New Guy. You don't have even 80 posts yet, I have over 2000. You haven't been here 6 moths, I've been here 8 yrs.

I'd say that pretty much makes you a "new guy".  To me at least. It's nothing a 12 yr old can't figure out.
 
No CD here either. I'm just asking for a little more  substance than old pics of party boy Donald in his heyday.

Him hobnobbing with a bunch of elitists and joos is nothing new around these parts. We have these little papers called tabloids in NY, we know all about the billionaire playboy from the 90's.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Matto on August 22, 2020, 06:02:53 PM
.
No, Pax is saying that nobody will be in a FEMA camp out of hatred for morality and the Faith. They will be there for refusing a vaccine or some other political reason.

The only political issues that matter are the moral issues. If they were not moral issues, then why oppose them enough to risk going to the FEMA camps?
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 22, 2020, 06:21:17 PM
Quote
However, this past year ALL of these things were mandated in most states of this country. Indeed, for several months, most of the human race was living under substantially the same rules as what I provided, something without precedent in 6,000 years of human history, and that no one could ever imagine was even possible.
Now this is something everyone should be tracking on. This is not about just Trump "going along" and being part of the commie lockdowns. This is a global phenomenon, this is instigated and perpetuated by forces far bigger than DT.

If this was just the U.S. getting wierd on us, we could almost deal with that internally. but this thing is not just in America.

The whole freaking world is under this demonic spell of the NWO. And from what I've seen from the beginning was Trump trying to resist the "virus" hysteria (curse) from the outset. He was basically mocking it as a bunch of bs put forth by the democrats and calling it the "chinese" virus. Even the dems weren't taking it serious, telling everyone in NYC to get outside to the Chinese parade and anyone not cuddling up with Asians were "racists". I watched this thing unfold like a global chess match, one country after another succumb to these "lock-downs" and the media freaking out. Until finally, Trump gave in or else he would've been blamed for everyone who "died from corona" in the country. Backed into a corner by the globalists who unleashed this commie virus until he had no where to go....checkmate.

And then it went on to destroy the greatest economy the world ever seen.

Do people think this was just be mere chance? Do people actually believe Trump is going along with this program?


And what the hell do they think sleepy Joe and the commies posing as dems are going to do?

Trust me, we don't want to go there.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Caraffa on August 22, 2020, 07:15:01 PM
A political persecution isn’t martyrdom.  So Biden won’t send people to heaven, just death in fema camps.  And the many who are immoral will curse God as they die.
.
Did morality increase during Obama’s presidency?  Nope.  So your hopes are unfounded.
Yes, and let's not forget with the ascent of Obama, that "Traditional Catholicism" itself moved dramatically to the left and became more accepting of the poz. 


One thing that gives me hope is that more young people are learning about the Latin Mass since it is more readily available and learning about the true faith, first through the indult and then the SSPX or the sede groups. Say what you want about the SSPX selling out, they have a large aposotlate and the resistance is unavailable to most people so it is not an option for most people.

The Neo-SSPX et al, as it has been shown time & time again is not opposed to globohomo judeo-managerialism. In fact, they are on the same side for both material and spiritual reasons. If there should ever be a unite the clans, it should be the Sedes and The Resistance against Trad inc.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: RomanCatholic1953 on August 22, 2020, 07:18:20 PM
Trump wanted to boot out of the Military all the gays but the pentagon overruled the President.
This is the very first time in history that the President as the Commander in Chief been overruled
by his own military, and they got away with it.
  
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Matto on August 22, 2020, 07:50:53 PM
The Neo-SSPX et al, as it has been shown time & time again is not opposed to globohomo judeo-managerialism. In fact, they are on the same side for both material and spiritual reasons. If there should ever be a unite the clans, it should be the Sedes and The Resistance against Trad inc.
The only way to restore the Church is to convert the Neo-SSPX and the Novus Ordo back to tradition. Unless the sedes and the resistance get together and elect a Pope, which they refuse to do because they either claim they have no authority (which makes one ask who does have the authority or will the Church be Pope-less forever?) or think that if they elected a Pope everyone would think they are crazy. But who would follow a sede Pope?
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 22, 2020, 07:58:30 PM

Quote
For those who die in FEMA camps for morality and the Catholic faith, it would be a glorious martyrdom.
There’s not a war against Catholicism, there’s a war against the natural law and patriotism.  No martyrdom in the latter situation.  Just like the Poles who were put on death trains weren’t killed by Russians because they were Catholic.  
.
You keep viewing this fight through a Catholic lens; it’s a fight over simple freedom.  If you want to be free, vote Trump.  If you want slavery and death, let Biden win.  Catholicism and martyrdom have nothing to do with it. 
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Nadir on August 22, 2020, 07:59:14 PM
1,000,000 legal reported abortions.
Many more thru RU486, contraception, and unreported abortions.
Even more if you include the MAP.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 22, 2020, 08:11:01 PM
And the only real stand against abortion in this country will have to bypass the entire political spectrum. There is too much in the way and nothing that respects this country's political process will be allowed to change it. Vote if you truly believe a miracle will happen, not because of anything these cronies actually say or promise.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 22, 2020, 08:24:09 PM
At the end of the day, we are wasting our time discussing this.

Apart from divine intervention, that person that the Jews who run this country want to be president WILL be president ... as our votes mean nothing.  They laugh at us as people watch the numbers come in on election night.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: 007 on August 22, 2020, 08:35:31 PM
I agree, our votes mean nothing, the president is already chosen.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Legiter on August 22, 2020, 08:36:36 PM
At the end of the day, we are wasting our time discussing this.

Apart from divine intervention, that person that the Jews who run this country want to be president WILL be president ... as our votes mean nothing.  They laugh at us as people watch the numbers come in on election night.
Agreed. Frankly, at the end of the day we are screwed either way. If Trump wins then the country will be set on fire by anarchists, Communists, and liberals. If he doesn't win then we will have a social-democrat ruling over us. No matter who wins ((they)) also may do everything they can to enforce vaccines on the masses. So, in the end, we better get ready and buckle up for hard times.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Donan on August 22, 2020, 08:55:24 PM

Yea, New Guy. You don't have even 80 posts yet, I have over 2000. You haven't been here 6 moths, I've been here 8 yrs.

I'd say that pretty much makes you a "new guy".  To me at least. It's nothing a 12 yr old can't figure out.
  
No CD here either. I'm just asking for a little more  substance than old pics of party boy Donald in his heyday.

Him hobnobbing with a bunch of elitists and joos is nothing new around these parts. We have these little papers called tabloids in NY, we know all about the billionaire playboy from the 90's.
Alaric, you act as if those videos were of an 18 year old frat boy. Trump was a man in his 40’s/50’s when those videos were taken. You also insinuated that Trump did not know what Epstein was up to when you wrote: 

”Do you really believe that Trump knew what Epstein was in 92? At some random gathering and had a few laughs? Really? “ 

to which I responded with Trumps own words:

“‘I’ve known Jeff for fifteen years. Terrific guy. He’s a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side.’ - Donald Trump, 2002”

I won’t even get into the degenerate statements Trump made about his own daughter, Ivanka. I really do hope you overcome your cognitive dissonance when it comes to Donald Trump.

https://youtu.be/rtLuof3TviY (https://youtu.be/rtLuof3TviY)

Sincerely,

The New Guy
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: St Frumentius on August 22, 2020, 09:43:20 PM
Trump also failed communities across the country by letting BLM plunder, murder and burn the cities. He should've sent in the Guard at day one. He's the Commander-in-Chief whose responsibility is to protect the country from enemies foreign and DOMESTIC. He also never put Hillary in jail. No indictments thus far against any big wig from the Swamp. Both examples show Trump cares nothing about the Rule of Law. He's all words and no action.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 22, 2020, 10:08:50 PM

Quote
Trump also failed communities across the country by letting BLM plunder, murder and burn the cities. He should've sent in the Guard at day one. He's the Commander-in-Chief whose responsibility is to protect the country from enemies foreign and DOMESTIC.

He's not a king.  That's not how a Republic govt works.
Title: Biden praises Jews' promotion of sodomy.
Post by: Geremia on August 22, 2020, 10:50:47 PM
Biden promotes sodomy. Biden praised "Jewish leaders" (https://news.yahoo.com/biden-jewish-leaders-drove-gay-012202293.html) for their "old NBC TV series Will and Grace", which "helped changed attitudes on gay marriage [i.e., on acts of sodomy]."
Title: «A Catholic Vote for Trump» response's to Trump & sodomy objection
Post by: Geremia on August 22, 2020, 10:58:57 PM
from the intro of Romero & McCullough's March 2020 A Catholic Vote for Trump (https://isidore.co/calibre/#panel=book_details&book_id=7847):
Quote
While President Trump has been very active and solicitous in seeking to protect religious freedom, he is not Catholic. With regards to an issue such as gay marriage, he cannot be said to hold the Catholic view, as he seems not as concerned about the normalization of homosexual relations, but, truth be told, if we are realists, we must acknowledge that that ship has sailed for the foreseeable future. As you will see in the list of accomplishments in the appendix, the author of that list includes the naming of homosexual ambassadors and working to exercise leverage on foreign nations to get them to decriminalize homosexual acts.

That acknowledged, it is the Catholic position that any sexual activity outside of marriage between a man and a woman is sinful; it is not the Church’s position that consenting sexual acts, whether heterosexual or homosexual in nature, should be criminalized. But it is true that Trump, at least politically, is not “with” the Church on same-sex marriage and seems to consider it settled law, but he is much better than anyone the Democrats will put forward and just as good as the best Republican in terms of what can actually be accomplished. In fact, he is probably better, for he has demonstrated the courage and political ability to carve out a solid space for religious freedom and to nominate the types of judges who may look at some of the judicial activism by which much past mischief was done with a jaundiced eye.

Under the previous administration, one would have to be blind not to have noticed a creeping totalitarianism in opposition to traditional Christian values, so much so that it increasingly seemed we were allowed to let those beliefs and values inform the way in which we live our lives, organize our parochial schools, and conduct our charitable activities only to the extent that they, “the tolerance police,” saw fit. Under Trump, we have a fighting chance to be allowed to raise our children and carry out our charitable works as we see fit. If you don’t believe us, this may be a good time to read or re-read Father Pavone’s outstanding foreword. That tells the tale from a first-person perspective.

Even less-active and non-practicing Catholics of our acquaintance seem to acknowledge that the Left continues to push and push the most radical positions; both authors know many Catholic Democrats and Independents who are fans of Donald Trump as a result of the radicalism of the Democrats.

Still, we Catholics can appeal to President Trump to respect those traditional societies that have not yet succumbed to the LGBTQ propaganda and pressure campaign for same-sex marriage against the will of the people, for remember, that momentous social change was effected judicially not legislatively in most, if not all, places. The LGBTQ pressure movement is as much a part of globalism as anything else. There is a difference between support for decriminalization and pressure to overturn cultural norms of traditional marriage against the will of the people.
Quote from: Appendix 2
• Trump appointed 5 openly gay ambassadors.
• Trump ordered his openly gay ambassador to Germany, Ric Grenell, to lead a global initiative to decriminalize homosexuality across the globe.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: StLouisIX on August 22, 2020, 11:00:41 PM
What do you think would happen if one of the red state governors tried to segregate public schools? Federal troops would be on the ground in minutes and it would be stopped immediately. Why did the same thing not happen to "sanctuary cities?" Because the Republicans are just as bad as the democrats, they just have pretend to be decent.
Good point Matto, reminds of me how G.K Chesterton once put it:

''The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."


To add on to what you've said:

The Republicans don't utilize political power in the way that the Democrats do because they're not supposed to. They are to offer token resistance at best, it's all show because both sides believe in the Freemasonic mythology of the Founding Fathers, that same mythology which helped us to get to this mess of a socio-political situation that we have today. It's a feature, not a bug.

Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 23, 2020, 05:43:19 AM
Alaric, you act as if those videos were of an 18 year old frat boy. Trump was a man in his 40’s/50’s when those videos were taken. You also insinuated that Trump did not know what Epstein was up to when you wrote:

”Do you really believe that Trump knew what Epstein was in 92? At some random gathering and had a few laughs? Really? “

to which I responded with Trumps own words:

“‘I’ve known Jeff for fifteen years. Terrific guy. He’s a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side.’ - Donald Trump, 2002”

I won’t even get into the degenerate statements Trump made about his own daughter, Ivanka. I really do hope you overcome your cognitive dissonance when it comes to Donald Trump.

https://youtu.be/rtLuof3TviY (https://youtu.be/rtLuof3TviY)

Sincerely,

The New Guy
Yes I'm well aware of Trump's semiti-philia, again this is no big secret around here, we all know  about the Donald and the "jews". As a matter of fact, you really are the new guy, because I've been blasting about trump and his jew friends and family for quite some time here if you go back in my posts. I know he does the bidding of the zionists, I know he he kisses Bibi and Israel's ass and does their bidding. Nothing new here. EVERY president has for the last 70+ years and it's not going to stop, I don't care who is in the oval office.
Just so you know, I actually supported Obama's "Iranian" deal, which Trump illegally tore up at the behest of his jewish masters AND murdered the Iranian General and hero Soleimani in cold blood who was actively engaging and defeating ISIS ( a jewish/CIA creation), again, at the behest of his jewish masters. I can go into many other examples of this nonsense and why we're hated worldwide, but that didn't start and will not end with Trump. There is no doubt Trump is just another waterboy for god's chosen, but again, THEY ALL ARE. Including Hillary, Biden and the rest of commie-cats.

And that's the point here. Given the evidence and current situation we're in, I don't really support or back DT and I'm certainly not a "Trumpster", but with the dynamics of everything going on, We literally HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE HERE.

Oh, other than sit home on your hands in NOV and patiently wait for "martyrdom". Thanks, but no thanks.

For those of you who believe none of these politicians have not met your standards of sinlessness or ready to be cannonized from the Vatican, good luck with that. But the rest of us in the real world have a duty, an obligation to support the "lesser evil" and to FIGHT these leftist, commie bastards trying to sack civilization. This is not the first time in history that we have to support a less than noble individual who is somewhat on the same page with our worldview and religion.

For crying out loud, even Vigano has supported Trump in his fight against the Deep State/Church.

I don't like the fact that I have to currently back Trump, the irony is, is that I actually butted heads with Matthew in the past over his open support for Trump, but in the end, he was right on the abortion issue. And now, we're in a fight for our lives with the commies and their minions who are mayors, governors and possibly in the White House itself. That is a scary scenario.

So for now, I will hold my nose and pull the lever for Trump, I don't see  no other way out, that is my decision and I will die on that hill.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 23, 2020, 06:50:26 AM
Don't be so quick to pat yourself on the back. If those of us who refrain from voting for Trump are guilty of Biden's subsequent presidency and disastrous policies, how are those that do vote for Trump not responsible for his LGBT or pro-false-Israel policies? You can't guilt us about Biden while disavowing Trump while still voting for him.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Venantius0518 on August 23, 2020, 08:44:48 AM
Don't be so quick to pat yourself on the back. If those of us who refrain from voting for Trump are guilty of Biden's subsequent presidency and disastrous policies, how are those that do vote for Trump not responsible for his LGBT or pro-false-Israel policies? You can't guilt us about Biden while disavowing Trump while still voting for him.
We all answer to God for our choices.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 23, 2020, 09:38:43 AM
Don't be so quick to pat yourself on the back. If those of us who refrain from voting for Trump are guilty of Biden's subsequent presidency and disastrous policies, how are those that do vote for Trump not responsible for his LGBT or pro-false-Israel policies? You can't guilt us about Biden while disavowing Trump while still voting for him.
I'm not patting myself on the back, go back and read my posts. I'm holding my nose voting for Trump.

But that's where it's at for us ( rational thinking Americans) and patriots. This is a war. YOU ARE IN A WAR.

It's that simple. You think Biden/Harris and the demo-commies aren't for LGBT and Israel? Wake the hell up!

They're for all of that AND MORE! As a matter of fact, many more MORE babies will be butchered under Biden ( yes, many, MOSTLY non-jewish babies), faggots and sex-freaks will even more rights under them ( If that's even possible), your religious "freedoms" will go under even more suppression and , if you're WHITE, look out. they will basically be able to come to your house, beat you (Or kill you), rape your women and take possession of everything you own and toss your ass out in the street. You think this can't happen? It's already happened! By the SAME PEOPLE! ( South Africa, Soviet Russia, China, etc.)
These dems like Biden/Harris hate, Hate, HATE you for your very existence. Biden (And clinton) have already stated on record that THEY CAN'T WAIT UNTIL WHITES ARE A MINORITY IN AMERICA! And that was years ago! Do you think they've changed their minds now? Take a look around, the commie-dems are DOING EVERYTHING to destroy the social/economic structure of the country, WHILE they unleash BLM/Antifa " protestors" on us like savage animals while they suppress any resistance from "Trump supporters" or "Right Wing Radicals" and CENSOR anyone on social media opposing this agenda. INCLUDING THE PRESIDENT!.


People like you keep honing in on da jews, da jews, da jews.......Well that's true to some extent.


But take a GOOD LUCK AROUND and WHO is killing us more than any anti-Christ jew? I'll name a few;


Pelosi- (Catholic) freaking anti-american,anti-white,anti-religion,anti-family anti-everything normal PSYCHO! Not a jew!


Biden- (Catholic) what else can I say that hasn't already been said? the guy is in his dotage , mumbling and stumbling his way through all of this and still they push him like he's presidential matieral. when they damn well know he's not. they guy and excuse me for using this phrase, is nothing more than a mental retard at this stage. Perfect for them to use to take us down.


Cuomo- (Catholic!) you have got to be kidding me, the most corrupt, lying , sanctimonious, narcissistic governor in the country AND THAT'S SAYING A LOT. this POS literally has the most recorded deaths from Corona-virus in the world, EVEN with all his Nazi-style Lockdowns AND STILL THEY PARADE HIM OUT THESE AS THE HERO AND TEMPLATE AROUND THE COUNTRY ON HOW TO "DEAL WITH THE VIRUS". Also. he actually celebrated statewide last year about NY having the most progressive ABORTION LAWS IN THE COUNTRY. He, actually lit up the empire state bldg and HAD A PARTY CELEBRATING THE FACT THAT, YOU CAN BUTCHER BABIES AT WILL BEFORE THEIR BORN HERE IN NY AND IN SOME CASES , AFTER! And you know who actually did the most protesting against all this? Freaking Orthodox jews! Not Catholics! And btw, cuomo, NOT A JEW.


Deblasio- (Jackass) I don't know or care what "religion" this Ahole says he is. He is PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE for the mass destruction by "protestors" all over the city, personally responsible for murders skyrocketing, responsible for detroying what is left of the economy in NYC and soon for the very destruction of the City itself. All the while he is PERSONALLY out painting BLM on the streets of NYC. right out in front of Trump's bldg btw. This guy is literally, a MODERN DAY NERO! He will fiddle as NYC burns AND HE LIT the FIRE. Btw, not a jew.


The "pope"-  ( Catholic?) What else can I say. If there ever a bigger commie, globalist, pro-fag enabler and attacker of the Church AND CHRISTIANITY in the world today, please let me know. you know who the biggest enemy of the Church ( and America) is today? The "vicar of Christ". Lol! ( but not really funny) Btw, NOT A JEW. (Not that we know of).


Bill Gates- (Prot) The absolute worse enemy of mankind. A demon in human form. He has the whole world possessed under his spell right now and will soon be king of kings with his "vaccine" magic and implant his "chip" into every living being on the planet. He wants the death of billions to make the world "liveable" and is actually trying to implement this plan right before our very eyes in killing and enslaving the "survivors" who make it through the death carnage to serve him. He does all this with a smile on his face while trying to come off as a harmless neighbor like mr rogers. The guy is pure evil. not a jew.


I could go on and on. But for right now, Donald Trump is low on my list. Even if he has a lot of jewish friends, jews in his family and is a good shabbos goy. We can deal with that later. right now, that group above is TRYING TO KILL US.

And that's where the war is now.....US or THEM!
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on August 23, 2020, 10:02:56 AM
Funny how some people are harder on the POTUS than the chief heretic in Rome for essentially the same thing. In no way do I expect Trump to be any sort of moral compass, but by it’s very essence the papacy IS the guide for all men to follow when dealing with faith and morals. Following the pope’s teachings on faith and morals, even if only through obedience, one cannot be in any danger of sinning. Bergoglio’s teachings, actions, and omissions are riddled with immoral sinful guidance.

https://novusordowatch.org/2020/08/francis-praises-nun-for-homes-for-transgenders/ (https://novusordowatch.org/2020/08/francis-praises-nun-for-homes-for-transgenders/)
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on August 23, 2020, 10:05:04 AM
I'm not patting myself on the back, go back and read my posts. I'm holding my nose voting for Trump.

But that's where it's at for us ( rational thinking Americans) and patriots. This is a war. YOU ARE IN A WAR.

It's that simple. You think Biden/Harris and the demo-commies aren't for LGBT and Israel? Wake the hell up!

They're for all of that AND MORE! As a matter of fact, many more MORE babies will be butchered under Biden ( yes, many, MOSTLY non-jewish babies), faggots and sex-freaks will even more rights under them ( If that's even possible), your religious "freedoms" will go under even more suppression and , if you're WHITE, look out. they will basically be able to come to your house, beat you (Or kill you), rape your women and take possession of everything you own and toss your ass out in the street. You think this can't happen? It's already happened! By the SAME PEOPLE! ( South Africa, Soviet Russia, China, etc.)
These dems like Biden/Harris hate, Hate, HATE you for your very existence. Biden (And clinton) have already stated on record that THEY CAN'T WAIT UNTIL WHITES ARE A MINORITY IN AMERICA! And that was years ago! Do you think they've changed their minds now? Take a look around, the commie-dems are DOING EVERYTHING to destroy the social/economic structure of the country, WHILE they unleash BLM/Antifa " protestors" on us like savage animals while they suppress any resistance from "Trump supporters" or "Right Wing Radicals" and CENSOR anyone on social media opposing this agenda. INCLUDING THE PRESIDENT!.


People like you keep honing in on da jews, da jews, da jews.......Well that's true to some extent.


But take a GOOD LUCK AROUND and WHO is killing us more than any anti-Christ jew? I'll name a few;


Pelosi- (Catholic) freaking anti-american,anti-white,anti-religion,anti-family anti-everything normal PSYCHO! Not a jew!


Biden- (Catholic) what else can I say that hasn't already been said? the guy is in his dotage , mumbling and stumbling his way through all of this and still they push him like he's presidential matieral. when they damn well know he's not. they guy and excuse me for using this phrase, is nothing more than a mental retard at this stage. Perfect for them to use to take us down.


Cuomo- (Catholic!) you have got to be kidding me, the most corrupt, lying , sanctimonious, narcissistic governor in the country AND THAT'S SAYING A LOT. this POS literally has the most recorded deaths from Corona-virus in the world, EVEN with all his Nazi-style Lockdowns AND STILL THEY PARADE HIM OUT THESE AS THE HERO AND TEMPLATE AROUND THE COUNTRY ON HOW TO "DEAL WITH THE VIRUS". Also. he actually celebrated statewide last year about NY having the most progressive ABORTION LAWS IN THE COUNTRY. He, actually lit up the empire state bldg and HAD A PARTY CELEBRATING THE FACT THAT, YOU CAN BUTCHER BABIES AT WILL BEFORE THEIR BORN HERE IN NY AND IN SOME CASES , AFTER! And you know who actually did the most protesting against all this? Freaking Orthodox jews! Not Catholics! And btw, cuomo, NOT A JEW.


Deblasio- (Jackass) I don't know or care what "religion" this Ahole says he is. He is PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE for the mass destruction by "protestors" all over the city, personally responsible for murders skyrocketing, responsible for detroying what is left of the economy in NYC and soon for the very destruction of the City itself. All the while he is PERSONALLY out painting BLM on the streets of NYC. right out in front of Trump's bldg btw. This guy is literally, a MODERN DAY NERO! He will fiddle as NYC burns AND HE LIT the FIRE. Btw, not a jew.


The "pope"-  ( Catholic?) What else can I say. If there ever a bigger commie, globalist, pro-fag enabler and attacker of the Church AND CHRISTIANITY in the world today, please let me know. you know who the biggest enemy of the Church ( and America) is today? The "vicar of Christ". Lol! ( but not really funny) Btw, NOT A JEW. (Not that we know of).


Bill Gates- (Prot) The absolute worse enemy of mankind. A demon in human form. He has the whole world possessed under his spell right now and will soon be king of kings with his "vaccine" magic and implant his "chip" into every living being on the planet. He wants the death of billions to make the world "liveable" and is actually trying to implement this plan right before our very eyes in killing and enslaving the "survivors" who make it through the death carnage to serve him. He does all this with a smile on his face while trying to come off as a harmless neighbor like mr rogers. The guy is pure evil. not a jew.


I could go on and on. But for right now, Donald Trump is low on my list. Even if he has a lot of jewish friends, jews in his family and is a good shabbos goy. We can deal with that later. right now, that group above is TRYING TO KILL US.

And that's where the war is now.....US or THEM!


LOL....I wrote a short reply similar to yours at around the same time!
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: ByzCat3000 on August 23, 2020, 11:06:58 AM
I don't see how it is "NOW" a sin to vote for Trump?  We have known for a long time that he's pro-sodomite.

So this doesn't really change things.

There's still a possibility to argue from double effect.  Someone might vote for Trump because, for instance, it's likely that Ginsberg will either retire or receive her eternal reward within the next term.

Even if an anti-sodomite President were elected, it's not as if anyone is going to outlaw sodomy anytime soon.

But I've been pushing back against double effect precisely on the grounds that if it's evil to vote for a a pro-sodomite candidate, then you can't do it even if the other guy is worse.  I'm not sure whether it's OK to divide a candidate by his positions.  I am voting for anti-abortion Trump but not pro-sodomite Trump.

This is something that the trained moral theologians really should deal with more; it's a neglected area of theology.
I haven't read the entire thread yet, but I kind of alluded to this earlier.  "What is a vote?"  Has the Church ever ruled on this?  Whether a vote is a real endorsement "I want this guy to be President" or just a strategic calculation (ie. I realistically have two options, I'm gonna side with this guy over that guy.)

Has the  Church ever ruled on what a vote is?  If they have, I'd certainly submit.  As it stands, the only thing I can think of where the Church has "weighed in" on this was Benedict XVI, which I'd give *some* weight to since I'm not sede, but I'd rather something earlier.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Clemens Maria on August 23, 2020, 11:07:58 AM
It’s odd how when the going gets rough some guys lose their minds and do counterproductive things.  Like the war movie cliche of the tough guy soldier who in the midst of a bloody battle jumps up out of his foxhole and charges the enemy line only to be mercilessly cut down.  Handing Biden (let’s be honest, Harris) the presidency either by not voting or by writing in someone who has no chance of winning is like fumbling the ball at the goal line.  Be calm and patient.  Let God decide when He will tear everything down.  Don’t try to bring it about prematurely.  I still say that prayer and penance is the only way you are going to convert our country.  Fasting one day a week isn’t that hard.  The full Litany of the Saints is only 10 minutes per day.  Not a lot to ask.  And if nothing else it will be guaranteed to produce good fruits in your soul.  But maybe it will also bring about the conversion of our country.  Faith can literally move mountains.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: ByzCat3000 on August 23, 2020, 11:21:54 AM
Funny how some people are harder on the POTUS than the chief heretic in Rome for essentially the same thing. In no way do I expect Trump to be any sort of moral compass, but by it’s very essence the papacy IS the guide for all men to follow when dealing with faith and morals. Following the pope’s teachings on faith and morals, even if only through obedience, one cannot be in any danger of sinning. Bergoglio’s teachings, actions, and omissions are riddled with immoral sinful guidance.

https://novusordowatch.org/2020/08/francis-praises-nun-for-homes-for-transgenders/ (https://novusordowatch.org/2020/08/francis-praises-nun-for-homes-for-transgenders/)
Not getting into is sede the right position or not, but this analogy is false.  R and Rs  who say its sinful to *vote* for Trump would also presumably say it would be sinful to *vote* for Francis, say, if they were a cardinal or whatnot.  And I haven't seen any of them deny Trump's authority as POTUS.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 23, 2020, 11:42:56 AM
If Core, Hon, Dathan and Abiron had held an election to see who should lead the Israelites, it wouldn't have mattered who won or who lost. I refuse to vote for the lesser evil. They're all destined for the pit.

To me, Trump's support for the LGBT community proves he has no real interest in pro-life. Contraception and abortion only enable straight people to live the lives of their sterile, sodomite, sex-worshiping contemporaries. Wherever the homosexuals are promoted, abortion is a must.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Miseremini on August 23, 2020, 11:54:28 AM
It’s odd how when the going gets rough some guys lose their minds and do counterproductive things.  Like the war movie cliche of the tough guy soldier who in the midst of a bloody battle jumps up out of his foxhole and charges the enemy line only to be mercilessly cut down.  Handing Biden (let’s be honest, Harris) the presidency either by not voting or by writing in someone who has no chance of winning is like fumbling the ball at the goal line.  Be calm and patient.  Let God decide when He will tear everything down.  Don’t try to bring it about prematurely.  I still say that prayer and penance is the only way you are going to convert our country.  Fasting one day a week isn’t that hard.  The full Litany of the Saints is only 10 minutes per day.  Not a lot to ask.  And if nothing else it will be guaranteed to produce good fruits in your soul.  But maybe it will also bring about the conversion of our country.  Faith can literally move mountains.
CM has it right.
As an outsider (my country is in the same boat) it all boils down to your free will (which is what will decide your eternity)
With Trump your free will (for good or evil) will be left relatively in tact.  You'll be allowed to make lemonade from the lemons handed to you.
With Biden you will get a dictator like the world has never seen before who will take away your free will at every opportunity that he will create.

Trump isn't forcing anyone to have an abortion.
Can you say Biden won't?
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 23, 2020, 02:12:05 PM

Quote
Be calm and patient.  Let God decide when He will tear everything down.  Don’t try to bring it about prematurely.

Agree!  A vote for Trump is just a vote for more time.  A vote for socialism vs communism.  A vote for a slow eroding vs a massive flood.
.
No one can say they are ready to be shipped off to a FEMA camp, because that takes a special grace to survive the emotional, physical and psychological temptations that you'll face there.  I'll take more time to pray, prep and petition God for a miracle.
.
If some of you are ready to die in a fiery "blaze of glory" then why don't you move to the Middle East and fight the muslims.  We don't need your defeatist and negative attitudes here.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Miseremini on August 23, 2020, 02:31:44 PM
Agree!  A vote for Trump is just a vote for more time.  A vote for socialism vs communism.  A vote for a slow eroding vs a massive flood.
.
No one can say they are ready to be shipped off to a FEMA camp, because that takes a special grace to survive the emotional, physical and psychological temptations that you'll face there.  I'll take more time to pray, prep and petition God for a miracle.
.
If some of you are ready to die in a fiery "blaze of glory" then why don't you move to the Middle East and fight the muslims.  We don't need your defeatist and negative attitudes here.
AMEN !!!
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Yeti on August 23, 2020, 03:36:10 PM
Those of you against voting for Trump, maybe you didn't hear about this, but back in May the communists started closing down all the large meat plants in this country. One after another they started closing them down, and within days the meat started disappearing off the shelves in supermarkets all over this country. And they kept shutting down more and more meat plants. But you know what happened? President Trump used some sort of wartime emergency power as president to open the meat plants back up (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/meat-plants-open-defense-production-act-trump-executive-order-coronavirus/) and stave off mass starvation in this country. The article I linked says the major food companies were going to reduce the country's food production by 80% (and note the word "food", not "meat", which means they were planning to cut ALL FOOD PRODUCTION by 80%).
.
I am still aghast at how close our country came to the edge of the abyss, from which Trump pulled us back. Are you non-voting types 100% sure Biden would do the same thing? Do you want food on your table? Then VOTE FOR TRUMP!!!!
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Matthew on August 23, 2020, 04:12:38 PM
I agree with Alaric's post:
https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/mortal-sin-now-to-vote-trump/msg712175/#msg712175 (https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/mortal-sin-now-to-vote-trump/msg712175/#msg712175)

If you haven't read it, please do so.

I'm concerned about Trump bragging about being the best LGBT president ever, and I'm concerned that Pence is throwing around communist terms like "conspiracy theory", and disavowing Q (which was the one thing suggesting Trump et al. are DIFFERENT than all the previous (R) presidents, who were every bit as bad as the Democrats they ran against). 

How was Obama or Clinton worse than Bush? Every middle east war happened under Republicans. The War on Terror, the ongoing psy-op against the American people, forcing old ladies to take off their shoes at the airport because they might be a "shoe bomber" -- even the 9/11 false flag itself, which murdered thousands of Americans -- happened under an (R) president. You're telling me I should vote for such a man (George W Bush) over his rival? No thanks!

George Bush was a member of Skull & Bones, a satanic cult. He participated in the Bohemian Grove, was a 33rd degree Mason, and did only-God-knows-what to achieve that rank. The lowest ranks of Freemasonry are all that most people are familiar with. But the higher ranks involve much more evil: satanism, murder, and God-knows-what-else. If George Bush were running today, and I was old enough to vote, I would seriously stay home. He didn't even do anything good in terms of pro-life, appointing judges, etc. Back then the 2-party system was a complete scam.

As for the situation today, I still see some good in Trump's 1st term -- he's making life more possible for Americans (economically), he seems to be somewhat against globalization, rolling back evil globalist treaties (Paris Accord), he is against the Climate Change scam, and is giving more glory and support to the pro-life movement (he completely falls down in the category of LGBT, but I digress).

I will be holding my nose and voting for Trump to prevent worse evils, and to vote "for" the few good things he is likely to do, compared with his rival.

But I have lost my enthusiasm for Trump; I won't be wearing any promotional materials, posting any signs, or promoting his candidacy online in any way -- except for pointing out things like you see in this post. But I won't be wasting any more time defending Trump to non-Catholics. Whatever happens, happens. If Trump wins, "yay." But I'm not going to get all hopeful and excited like I was when I thought he was an actual good guy.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Matto on August 23, 2020, 04:26:51 PM
https://twitter.com/TheCptBlackPill/status/1297214100477480961 (https://twitter.com/TheCptBlackPill/status/1297214100477480961)

I hope the link works. I don't know anything about the person who made this thread I just saw it linked by someone I follow. He seems to be an alt-right kind of guy. Click to read the whole thread.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Miseremini on August 23, 2020, 05:02:26 PM
I agree with Alaric's post:
https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/mortal-sin-now-to-vote-trump/msg712175/#msg712175 (https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/mortal-sin-now-to-vote-trump/msg712175/#msg712175)

If you haven't read it, please do so.

I'm concerned about Trump bragging about being the best LGBT president ever, and I'm concerned that Pence is throwing around communist terms like "conspiracy theory", and disavowing Q (which was the one thing suggesting Trump et al. are DIFFERENT than all the previous (R) presidents, who were every bit as bad as the Democrats they ran against).

How was Obama or Clinton worse than Bush? Every middle east war happened under Republicans. The War on Terror, the ongoing psy-op against the American people, forcing old ladies to take off their shoes at the airport because they might be a "shoe bomber" -- even the 9/11 false flag itself, which murdered thousands of Americans -- happened under an (R) president. You're telling me I should vote for such a man (George W Bush) over his rival? No thanks!

George Bush was a member of Skull & Bones, a satanic cult. He participated in the Bohemian Grove, was a 33rd degree Mason, and did only-God-knows-what to achieve that rank. The lowest ranks of Freemasonry are all that most people are familiar with. But the higher ranks involve much more evil: satanism, murder, and God-knows-what-else. If George Bush were running today, and I was old enough to vote, I would seriously stay home. He didn't even do anything good in terms of pro-life, appointing judges, etc. Back then the 2-party system was a complete scam.

As for the situation today, I still see some good in Trump's 1st term -- he's making life more possible for Americans (economically), he seems to be somewhat against globalization, rolling back evil globalist treaties (Paris Accord), he is against the Climate Change scam, and is giving more glory and support to the pro-life movement (he completely falls down in the category of LGBT, but I digress).

I will be holding my nose and voting for Trump to prevent worse evils, and to vote "for" the few good things he is likely to do, compared with his rival.

But I have lost my enthusiasm for Trump; I won't be wearing any promotional materials, posting any signs, or promoting his candidacy online in any way -- except for pointing out things like you see in this post. But I won't be wasting any more time defending Trump to non-Catholics. Whatever happens, happens. If Trump wins, "yay." But I'm not going to get all hopeful and excited like I was when I thought he was an actual good guy.
Lukewarm never solved anything.....but if he looses at least you'll be able to say you voted for him.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 23, 2020, 05:15:51 PM
https://twitter.com/TheCptBlackPill/status/1297214100477480961 (https://twitter.com/TheCptBlackPill/status/1297214100477480961)

I hope the link works. I don't know anything about the person who made this thread I just saw it linked by someone I follow. He seems to be an alt-right kind of guy. Click to read the whole thread.

Great reference. Despite his support for new wave homo-pedo conservative Milo, he makes an insightful observation of how Trump is culpable by supporting these gigantic companies who happen to be satanically progressive and ultimately shutting down conservative voices on the internet. Then there is the decision to let the BLM Antifa crowd run completely wild, putting police and civilian lives at risk. This allowing for State's rights and refusing to bring in Federal power where it could have actually done some good is strategic. So the pattern continues. The Judicial branch enforces LGBT progessivism, the Executive and Legislative branches push out socialized healthcare during Democratic rule, now we have everybody suddenly sitting on their hands during this increasing insane era of human history. The government oversteps or it underperforms, but it will never be able to do God's will until the satanists are removed from all of our high places.


Quote from:  Hunter @TheCptBlackPill Aug 22

The entire Right is now censored by Big Tech as we saw earlier this month when Google delisted virtually every rightwing site in existence. Once again, nothing has been been done about the problem

So, there is that, which is a relatively new problem which wasn't urgent until Trump was elected in 2016. Trump and the GOP let their own supporters be destroyed on the internet one by one

As for Big Tech, they were rewarded for their behavior with the big corporate tax cut by Trump and the GOP. Their stocks went up. They made a killing. As Trump himself said, MAGA stands for Microsoft, Amazon, Google and Apple

The financial side of deplatforming is that every payment processor in existence and even banks and credit card companies have begun to engage in political censorship. If you have the wrong politics, forget about having a PayPal account

So, the effective result of electing Trump and the GOP is that their supporters were silenced in the public square (The internet) and financially punished as well (by banks, credit card companies, payment processors.) Nothing was done about these new means of coercion

...

This brings us to the subject of actual physical leftwing violence. BLM rioted and burned down multiple cities in the 2016 election and during the late Obama presidency. Trump vowed to restore "law and order." This was one of the primary reasons he was elected

The violence began with Antifa attacking Trump rallies in the 2016 campaign. This went on for months before he won the election. It continued at the inauguration. Those of us who were there saw it

By the time of Charlottesville, the now familiar police stand downs had begun in Berkeley and Portland, but this was a new development which we didn't fully appreciate at the time. Police in Democrat cities started allowing Antifa and BLM to engage in violence


Now, obviously, there is nothing we can do about this. If Democratic cities hair decide to stop enforcing the law or to prosecute only people on the Right, that is above our pay grade. Only the federal government can step in to end these leftwing sundown towns

...


In 2020, Antifa and BLM just lay siege to the White House, establish sovereign autonomous zones in cities, burn down Washington, DC, burn down Portland for three months, attack federal courthouses with impunity and even the police are abolished to appease the mob
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Seraphina on August 23, 2020, 10:23:25 PM
Two sides of the same evil, immoral coin.  
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: St Frumentius on August 23, 2020, 11:03:27 PM
  Be calm and patient.  Let God decide when He will tear everything down.  Don’t try to bring it about prematurely. 

OK then don't vote for Trump, and place all of your faith in God to tear down the evil. Don't try to delay it by trusting in man.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: St Frumentius on August 23, 2020, 11:09:09 PM
President Trump used some sort of wartime emergency power as president to open the meat plants back up and stave off mass starvation in this country.

Yet, Trump didn't use his executive orders to keep all churches open in defiance to governors violating the 1st Amendment. 

Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. - Matthew 4:4
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Seraphina on August 23, 2020, 11:43:39 PM
Trump didn't use his executive orders to keep all churches open in defiance to governors violating  the 1st Amendment.  
Vote!!!
Fr. Kevin Robinson for President!
Think of it!  Mary for ‘First Lady,’
 Oh, wait!  He wasn’t born here.
That was no problem for Obama or Harris, Biden’s choice.
He’s young enough to be unlikely to drop dead in office.
Ideas for a running mate, anyone?
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Nadir on August 23, 2020, 11:55:34 PM
Vote!!!
Fr. Kevin Robinson for President!
Think of it!  Mary for ‘First Lady,’
 Oh, wait!  He wasn’t born here.
That was no problem for Obama or Harris, Biden’s choice.
He’s young enough to be unlikely to drop dead in office.
Ideas for a running mate, anyone?
He’s taken out American citizenship.
Running mate - Sean Johnson has aspirations, I believe  ;)
Or Matto...:popcorn:
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Seraphina on August 24, 2020, 12:11:29 AM
He’s taken out American citizenship.
Running mate - Sean Johnson has aspirations, I believe  ;)
Or Matto...:popcorn:
Fr. Robinson is a naturalized American citizen.  That disqualifies him from being President, but as I noted, Obama didn’t let that stand in his way!
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Nadir on August 24, 2020, 04:28:06 AM
Fr. Robinson is a naturalized American citizen.  That disqualifies him from being President....
Oh! Is that so? I did not know that. 
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Stubborn on August 24, 2020, 05:57:14 AM
After reading this whole thread....we should be looking at the records of both candidates, primarily we should be looking at the Laws and Policies each administration put in place that actually affect us all. We can do that comparison because of the position Joe held for 8, if not 50 years.

I had little success finding a list of Trump vs Obama here that I could copy and paste, but do a little searching on the laws that they support and you will find that for Catholics, Biden immediately and completely loses that contest.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Clemens Maria on August 24, 2020, 07:32:23 AM
OK then don't vote for Trump, and place all of your faith in God to tear down the evil. Don't try to delay it by trusting in man.
And hand the presidency to Biden?  Do you think demonrats are going to stay out of the vote?  They are energized.  They can’t wait to get rid of Trump.  And as proven by Project Veritas they will cheat too.  The least you should be doing is go out and vote against militant institutionalized atheism.  And a write-in is basically a throwaway vote.  In my district those get counted as “other” and all of them combined don’t add up to 1%.  So that is just wasting everyone’s time.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 24, 2020, 07:55:51 AM
And hand the presidency to Biden?

Well, we're not handing anything to anyone.  Come November, the Jews who run this country will hand the Presidency to who they want.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Clemens Maria on August 24, 2020, 08:06:43 AM
Well, we're not handing anything to anyone.  Come November, the Jews who runs this country will hand the Presidency to who they want.
It looks like the demonrats have already got you right where they want you.  You don’t think these all-powerful Jews can’t use psyops to demoralize the opposition?  They already got you.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Clemens Maria on August 24, 2020, 08:08:59 AM
If nothing else, at least vote for law and order.  Trump is at least trying to enforce the laws while the demonrats celebrate chaos.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 24, 2020, 08:14:47 AM
It looks like the demonrats have already got you right where they want you.  You don’t think these all-powerful Jews can’t use psyops to demoralize the opposition?  They already got you.

Or what I'm saying is true.  These vote-counting systems are not at all transparent and all it takes is a line of code here and there to rig them.

https://blackboxvoting.org/ (https://blackboxvoting.org/)

The evidence for the fact that the numbers are being manipulated is overwhelming.

Everyone talks about mail-in ballots, but the easiest way to rig it is to insert some lines of code into either the voting machine itself or else the tallying system.  Even around here there were districts in 2016 where Trump got ZERO votes, others where the votes for Clinton significantly exceeded the total number of registered voters in the district.  So every once in a while their algorithms misfire (or don't cover every scenario) and they can get exposed.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 24, 2020, 08:18:02 AM
If nothing else, at least vote for law and order.  Trump is at least trying to enforce the laws while the demonrats celebrate chaos.

This is disputed, whether you can vote for a pro-sodomite candidate just because he's otherwise for law and order.  In other words, you're simply glossing over the broader theological question of whether and under what conditions it's permissible to vote for a defective candidate, whether you can separate the concerns within a single candidate.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 24, 2020, 08:35:24 AM
If you apply "lesser evil" reasoning to the following scenario:

Candidate 1:
pro-abortion, pro-sodomite, against prayer in schools, likely to wage unjust wars for Israel, for law and order

Candidate 2:
pro-abortion, pro-sodomite, against prayer in schools, likely to wage unjust wars for Israel, against law and order


then you could bring yourself to vote for Candidate #1, because he's slightly less worse.  It becomes a mere mathematical formula.

But is it permitted in the abstract to vote for Candidate #1 ... being pro-abortion and pro-sodomite?

This is the kind of reasoning that needs to be flushed out by trained theologians and simply never has been.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Clemens Maria on August 24, 2020, 08:35:29 AM
This is disputed, whether you can vote for a pro-sodomite candidate just because he's otherwise for law and order.  In other words, you're simply glossing over the broader theological question of whether and under what conditions it's permissible to vote for a defective candidate, whether you can separate the concerns within a single candidate.

Not voting is not neutral.  Someone is going to get elected no matter what you do.  So your actions will have some small influence on the outcome whether you like it or not.  There is no way to stay out of it.  Your citizenship makes you responsible.  So the only thing to do is to choose the best possible outcome.  The only reasonable thing for a Catholic to do is to vote for the candidate who is more compatible with Catholic principles.  But whoever you vote for should have at least some small chance of winning.  Even a Libertarian candidate who will probably only get low single digit percentage of votes is ok in my opinion. But write-ins are not viable at all.  Don’t waste everyone’s time with that garbage.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: josefamenendez on August 24, 2020, 08:44:59 AM
I will vote for Trump only because he has shown that unborn  baby-killing may possibly be restricted  ( by executive order) under his presidency, but all in all, it probably won't as the elites have already built-in protections for baby-killing laws. ( how about that John Roberts). I certainly don't trust Trump's "conservative" SCOTUS picks- they are all there to flip the vote when it is needed to protect child killing.( they all love stare decisis) I will only vote for Trump (as a Catholic who must) in the event there is a crumb for the pro-life position.
In 2016 I surmised Trump was anti-vaccine as I thought he might be retaliatory against them since (rumor had it) that Barron was a vaccine damaged child. During the campaign he was talking to RFK Jr and other leading anti-vax proponents. I was truly pumped about that. Now he's saying he will have hundreds of millions of ( fetal and GMO modified) vaccines distributed with a  mandate by the military. Am I supposed to be all rah-rah about Trump? I am not but will vote to try and save at least one baby's life even if it seems unlikely at this point. But there is no doubt who wins ( the same agenda that always wins) and if it wasn't for the babies I wouldn't vote at all.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 24, 2020, 08:49:00 AM
Not voting is not neutral.  Someone is going to get elected no matter what you do.  So your actions will have some small influence on the outcome whether you like it or not.  There is no way to stay out of it.  Your citizenship makes you responsible.  So the only thing to do is to choose the best possible outcome.  The only reasonable thing for a Catholic to do is to vote for the candidate who is more compatible with Catholic principles.  But whoever you vote for should have at least some small chance of winning.  Even a Libertarian candidate who will probably only get low single digit percentage of votes is ok in my opinion. But write-ins are not viable at all.  Don’t waste everyone’s time with that garbage.

You're oversimplying matters.  What if I live in a Blue State where Trump has no chance?  In that case a vote for Trump will not have ANY influence on the outcome?

You're assuming that the vote count is legit.

Why is it OK to vote for a single-digit Libertarian but not OK to write someone in?  That makes zero sense.

You're just emoting here and not applying logical to any of your statements.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 24, 2020, 08:52:22 AM
I will vote for Trump only because he has shown that unborn  baby-killing may possibly be restricted  ( by executive order) under his presidency, but all in all, it probably won't as the elites have already built-in protections for baby-killing laws.

Almost everyone here is applying Utilitarian reasoning, which is not a Catholic moral system.

If it's wrong to vote for a pro-sodomite candidate, then it's wrong to vote for a pro-sodomite candidate, regardless of whatever good he might otherwise do.

That's how everything slides to the left, both in society and in the Church.  Hey, look, this one bishop believes in the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.  Bring up his cause for canonization now!
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: josefamenendez on August 24, 2020, 09:07:34 AM
You are right Laud, the end doesn't justify the means.. but right now we would have to admit that elections don't matter, even issue by issue, to cement your point.  I'm to the point that they really don't ( almost) . The communists are entrenched. Elections are just bread and circuses and the real war is the spiritual war. Politics is a placating cover. We want politicians to do the spiritual battle for us- haha-no luck there. It's just very hard for me to ignore the unborn under any paradigm. I know even that attitude lends itself to manipulation by the world.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 24, 2020, 09:23:37 AM

Quote
If you apply "lesser evil" reasoning to the following scenario:

Candidate 1:
pro-abortion, pro-sodomite, against prayer in schools, likely to wage unjust wars for Israel, for law and order

Candidate 2:
pro-abortion, pro-sodomite, against prayer in schools, likely to wage unjust wars for Israel, against law and order


then you could bring yourself to vote for Candidate #1, because he's slightly less worse.  It becomes a mere mathematical formula.

But is it permitted in the abstract to vote for Candidate #1 ... being pro-abortion and pro-sodomite?

This is the kind of reasoning that needs to be flushed out by trained theologians and simply never has been.

1.  Trump is the most anti-abortion president we've had since Roe v Wade.  Come on.
.
2.  The pro-sodomite thing has to be viewed through law vs policy vs personal opinion.  If a president has signed pro-sodomite laws, that's 100% wrong (which Trump hasn't done). 
.
b.  Sodomy policies are immoral but not necessarily as evil as laws, because permissive policies are less evil than forcible acceptance.  Sure, allowing evil is wrong, but if the evil was going to happen anyways, then there's not much you can do about it (i.e.  See St Thomas' views on allowing prostitution houses, as long as they are on the outskirts of town, because immorality will always exist, so the govts job is to regulate it).  The can of worms of pro-sodomy in America has been happening for decades.  Lots of g@ys in govt, so policies are enacted to appease them.  Hard to fight this.
.
c.  Most policy changes were necessary due to corrupt judges' decision and the Supreme Court.  You could argue that POTUS' hands are tied.
.
3.  A president's personal views on sodomy are irrelevant to the discussion.  We're speaking of govt, not personal sanctity.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Matto on August 24, 2020, 09:29:19 AM
1.  Trump is the most anti-abortion president we've had since Roe v Wade.  Come on.

Is this true or is it normie pro-lifer propaganda? How much money has Trump given to planned parenthood as president? When I tried to look that up the internet search results said he has given them over five hundred million dollars a year in federal government money. Perhaps that is fake news.

So yes, he spoke at the march for life, but he has signed off over a billion dollars to planned parenthood, more money per year than Obama. But do look it up yourself. Perhaps it is fake news, as you never know what you can trust on the internet.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Clemens Maria on August 24, 2020, 09:31:19 AM
You're oversimplying matters.  What if I live in a Blue State where Trump has no chance?  In that case a vote for Trump will not have ANY influence on the outcome?

You're assuming that the vote count is legit.

Why is it OK to vote for a single-digit Libertarian but not OK to write someone in?  That makes zero sense.

You're just emoting here and not applying logical to any of your statements.

All my statements are emoting?  Really?  I didn’t make a single logical argument?  Well then, I guess you could easily refute them.

Start with this:

1. You, as a citizen of the USA, are responsible for the election of the next president of the USA.

2. Your decision on the matter will have a small influence on the outcome.  It may or may not help one candidate to win but no matter what you do your actions will be reflected in the final outcome of the contest.  Even refraining from voting will have a small influence on the outcome.

3. The final outcome of the contest will influence the kind of candidates who will run in the next election.  Losing candidates with good numbers may influence candidates with similar views to jump into the next race.  Winning candidates will almost certainly bring more candidates with similar views into the next race.

4. While the electoral college system does change the dynamic of the vote for each state, it doesn’t relieve you of your responsibility in the matter.  You aren’t obligated to vote for a candidate that has good poll numbers but you you are obligated to take your duties seriously.  Write-ins are not viable unless there was some kind of national campaign for some specific write-in candidate.  Otherwise it is an irresponsible waste of other people’s time.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 24, 2020, 09:47:40 AM

Quote
So yes, he spoke at the march for life, but he has signed off over a billion dollars to planned parenthood, more money per year than Obama.

Congress is in charge of the budget; the president only signs laws.  Most of Congress (including many fake republicans) support planned parenthood.  The president isn't able to just veto all budget bills, or else the govt would shut down (which Trump did twice).  ALL BUDGET LAWS from Congress will fund planned parenthood, so what do you expect Trump to do?  He can negotiate but that's about it.  Any funding of immoral practices is the fault of Congress, ultimately.
.
Secondly, the entire Federal budget is corrupt.  It funds all kinds of immoral things - sodomy, planned parenthood, LGBT "learning" in schools, birth control, anti-christian programs in schools, divorce courts, etc, etc, etc.
.
So if Trump were to de-fund planned parenthood, what's the next immoral issue that would blamed on him?  There's about 1,000 other things in the budget that are against the natural law.  The point is, the country is so corrupt that the fixing of 1 issue doesn't stop evil.  Those that are defeatists, whiners and complainers about America being uncatholic (...can't believe they haven't accepted reality, but that's another topic), will NEVER BE HAPPY and they can point to a 1,000 things as "evidence" that "politician x" is bad. 
.
Again, we live in a culture/moral war.  Every politician falls short of sanctity, just like all of us do.  All countries in the modern world are guilty of evil laws.  You have to try to win the battles you can win and take small victories, while realizing that the larger war is (humanly speaking) lost.  Only Our Lady can resurrect the Church, and only she can convert a country.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 24, 2020, 11:10:45 AM

Quote
Almost everyone here is applying Utilitarian reasoning, which is not a Catholic moral system.

If it's wrong to vote for a pro-sodomite candidate, then it's wrong to vote for a pro-sodomite candidate, regardless of whatever good he might otherwise do.

You can't always apply catholic moral principles to a non-catholic situation.  There are exceptions, and our country being in a cultural/moral war, is one of them.  The other exception is that both parties are corrupt, (even Libertarians/Green party are corrupt and immoral) so what we're left with is survival mode.  The "best we can get" is our choice.  Take off the moral theology hat and put on your combat helmet.  Catholic Prudence and practicality reign during times of chaos; idealism will get you killed. 
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Clemens Maria on August 24, 2020, 11:53:14 AM
Almost everyone here is applying Utilitarian reasoning, which is not a Catholic moral system.

If it's wrong to vote for a pro-sodomite candidate, then it's wrong to vote for a pro-sodomite candidate, regardless of whatever good he might otherwise do.

That's how everything slides to the left, both in society and in the Church.  Hey, look, this one bishop believes in the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.  Bring up his cause for canonization now!
Read the sspx article on voting posted by Sean early in this thread.  It isn’t obligatory to vote if both candidates are equally bad.  But that’s a judgment call. Pius XII said that decision is on our conscience.  I think it is clear that Trump is a better candidate and significantly better than the demonrats candidate.  If you think the difference between Trump and Biden/Harris is insignificant then you can refrain from voting.  They say you are obligated to vote only if there is a Catholic candidate.  But I don’t think that’s right.  Suppose Trump is running against Joe Stalin.  Stalin is campaigning on the promise that he will put 30 million rural conservatives to death if elected.  But Trump is pro fag like 99.9% of all political candidates nowadays.  So it’s ok for you not to vote?  I’m calling that BS.  We are responsible for the outcome of this election whether we like it or not.  We have to do the best we can under the circumstances.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Clemens Maria on August 24, 2020, 12:06:39 PM
Romney vs Obama = practically no difference but even in that case you can vote for Romney in order to keep Republican influence on the presidency in play.

Trump vs Harris isn’t even close.  Trump is miles ahead in moral issues.  He is openly pro life and he tried to prevent the perverts from destroying the military but it was too late.  His election has now made it conceivable that morally conservative candidates are viable.  A second term will solidify the gains and the demonrats know it.  That’s why they have Trump Derangement Syndrome.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Clemens Maria on August 24, 2020, 12:12:24 PM
Seriously, does anyone think a senile Biden is going to be running the country?  Harris is basically the whole ticket.  And she is all in on BLM Marxism.  They’ll be arresting us for being white.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Clemens Maria on August 24, 2020, 12:22:39 PM
Biden got the nomination so they can finally start using the 25th amendment to remove and humiliate a white guy.  They wanted to do that with Trump but they are so incompetent they failed.  But a senile old man should be a pushover.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Tradman on August 24, 2020, 03:27:27 PM
I can't help but see that the elite control things in ways people don't realize. They work diligently to wrangle common opinion to get citizens to demand what the elite want, so that citizens get things they don't want. The elite have gotten people to compromise for decades while they masterfully increase their wealth through schemes like debt manipulation, market crashes and world wars. They always managed to replace the serious issues with fairy tales like hate speech and climate control. But they finally got really smart and rallied the enemy by allowing a real issue to come to the fore, providing a "pro-life" president, in order to gain full control of their enemies under false pretenses. They've worked long and hard for a pope to suit their needs, anticipating forming him over many decades through societal manipulation. And we don't think they own Trump? They hide it all in plain sight. Trump's mutiny became even more apparent the first week of Corona with his rhetoric against China while he started the lock downs there and showed up daily to make announcements about ventilators and cruise ships. Trump and the elite gotta be tickled pink to get people to vote for the "lesser of two evils" because they stacked the deck, knowing that consciences would be compromised no matter what. It's what they do. The power elite don't compromise their demonic gods. Only Christians do that.  We should've seen it coming long ago, but even more so now because the better candidate is embracing all religions, gays, lock downs and vaccines. What are Catholics thinking? Biden couldn't run a lemonade stand, let alone the country, and because of that, the elite won't let him win. He's only running to make Trump more palatable and to make it look like the system is still up and running like it used to. Regardless of all that, a vote should represent more than the one voted for.  It represents the voter and is certainly worth a lot more than just wishful thinking. I personally never understood the lesser of two evils argument anyway, because no matter what, you're agreeing to vote for evil, especially now.  And no, you don't have to wait for a saint to run for office, it's just gotten that bad. We're helping the elite enslave us because we are unprincipled about serious matters, a fact that brought us to the brink. The left wing Catholic votes abortion and the right wing seems to want to give in and vote for LGBT because it might be less LGBT.  How do we think liberals have so much control? We don't have the likes of Trump and Biden only because of rich bad people, but because we are willing to compromise. The elite hate the true God because He's God, and they are turning God's people against Him vote by vote. But, of what use are the people of God, it they no longer stand on principles, but now vote against their own consciences?   
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 24, 2020, 03:57:44 PM
Seriously, does anyone think a senile Biden is going to be running the country?  Harris is basically the whole ticket.  And she is all in on BLM Marxism.  They’ll be arresting us for being white.

No, I don't think that the President (or Vice President) ever really runs the country.  U.S. Presidents have been handled by the Jews for the past century at least.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Cera on August 24, 2020, 03:59:21 PM
The choice is between:

1. a cardboard cutout puppet controlled by hidden evil forces who supports
baby killing (both pre-born and born)
funding planned parenthood/ eugenics
defunding the police
implosion of the economy and much of the population dependent on the State
(leading to men unable to support their families and the destruction of families)
violence in the streets
prisons emptied of criminals, no bail for most criminals
the end of protection of religious conscience
socialism/ communism
sodomy
abortions for men pretending to be women
pandering to NWO, China,WHO

2. an imperfect and incredibly annoying capitalist who gave up a relaxing retirement out of love for this nation who supports
unborn babies, born babies
defunding planned parenthood
funding the police
strong economy (building strong families)
protection of religious conscience
and who opposes the NWO, WHO and China

Am I distressed that Trump is being political and appearing to abandon his base by rolling over on the gay issue? Heck yes, but I had no illusions about him. I will hold my nose and vote against the much much worse evil. My conscience will not permit me to do otherwise.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Cera on August 24, 2020, 04:03:29 PM
First Pence blasts Q as a "conspiracy theory" (he actually used that term! educated Catholics will understand the grave and deep significance of using that term*)

God is trying to tell me something. I guess I have another 20 min. of free time this November 3rd.



*According to Zero Hedge (https://www.bing.com/search?q=Zero+Hedge&filters=sid%3a3d8be68c-436f-3d7d-ac90-88ac76c5fd2b&form=ENTLNK), the term Conspiracy Theory was created by the CIA in 1967 as a way to discredit anyone who dared to challenge their official version of the truth (1).
Q is run by the CIA as controlled opposition.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 24, 2020, 04:09:30 PM
2. an imperfect and incredibly annoying capitalist

Characterizing him as "imperfect" is grossly understating the problem many Catholics have with voting for him.  He's positively bad ... as per the incident which prompted this thread, his glorying in being pro-sodomite.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 24, 2020, 04:19:15 PM
Well, we're not handing anything to anyone.  Come November, the Jews who run this country will hand the Presidency to who they want.
Only if you let them. They CAN be beaten, this has been proven in past history. Granted maybe not by Trump right now, but  given the situation, THAT is our best option right now. Because Biden and Congola Harrris WILL be coming after you when this is done IF they win. You can see right now what is going on in dem (commie) strongholds. When they have the federal Govt, you are screwed. I don't think most who post on here in safehaven "red" states or whatever have any idea what's in store for them if Trump loses. I'll give you a hint.....THEY HATE YOU.



You remember that and what's going on around you and remember you sat on the sidelines election day.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 24, 2020, 04:26:31 PM
Lukewarm never solved anything.....but if he looses at least you'll be able to say you voted for him.
And what will you say?

Me personally, I am HOT for Trump to win. At ALL COSTS. By any means necessary.

Just like the commies say. We must face them and crush them like cockroaches.

Take a good look around, WE ARE IN CIVIL WAR RIGHT NOW.

You're either with us or against us.

Yes, Trump has polarized the country. This was coming for a long time.

We will overcome this commie coup or America as you know it, is done.

But you have to choose.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 24, 2020, 04:37:00 PM
If you apply "lesser evil" reasoning to the following scenario:

Candidate 1:
pro-abortion, pro-sodomite, against prayer in schools, likely to wage unjust wars for Israel, for law and order

Candidate 2:
pro-abortion, pro-sodomite, against prayer in schools, likely to wage unjust wars for Israel, against law and order


then you could bring yourself to vote for Candidate #1, because he's slightly less worse.  It becomes a mere mathematical formula.

But is it permitted in the abstract to vote for Candidate #1 ... being pro-abortion and pro-sodomite?

This is the kind of reasoning that needs to be flushed out by trained theologians and simply never has been.
Where has Trump said he's "pro-abortion"? And everyone in politics is "pro-fag" from what i've seen.

At least anyone that has any possibility of making any difference.

But what we need RIGHT NOW is warriors and leaders. Not Monday morning quarterbacking "theologians".

You guys are all looking for the Great Catholic Monarch or something. Well guess what , glorious "YOU" is not here.
You have two choices, Trump or hell on earth.

Because, believe me, if the demo-commies win, a year from now you'll be looking for the Orange guy who made nice with a few fags. ::)
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 24, 2020, 04:40:03 PM
Only if you let them. They CAN be beaten, this has been proven in past history. Granted maybe not by Trump right now, but  given the situation, THAT is our best option right now. Because Biden and Congola Harrris WILL be coming after you when this is done IF they win. You can see right now what is going on in dem (commie) strongholds. When they have the federal Govt, you are screwed. I don't think most who post on here in safehaven "red" states or whatever have any idea what's in store for them if Trump loses. I'll give you a hint.....THEY HATE YOU.



You remember that and what's going on around you and remember you sat on the sidelines election day.

You see, I don't believe that.  I believe that the elections are rigged, and I believe that all the leading candidates are totally controlled.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 24, 2020, 04:41:59 PM
Where has Trump said he's "pro-abortion"? And everyone in politics is "pro-fag" from what i've seen.

I didn't say that Candidate #1 was Trump.  I was making an argumentum ad absurdum against the so-called "lesser evil" position with two hypothetical candidates, with one being 100% evil, and the second being 98% evil.  Lesser evil would say you could (or even had to) vote for the guy who's 98% evil.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 24, 2020, 04:45:00 PM
Now, the favorite and most effective tactic of the Jewish bankers who run the world is to convince people that they do not run the world ... or that they don't exist.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 24, 2020, 04:45:08 PM
Seriously, does anyone think a senile Biden is going to be running the country?  Harris is basically the whole ticket.  And she is all in on BLM Marxism.  They’ll be arresting us for being white.
This is an understatement.

They will come and take everything you have, enslave you and your family, if they don't just outright kill you.

They are ALREADY threatening to do that NOW.

And the worst part is, they have a bunch of young, stupid, dumb white punks right alongside of them threatening to do just that. And THEY'RE GLAD TO DO IT
.
This is bad in this country right now. there is only one way out of this. We're gonna have to fight our way out and probably against our own people. Just like the Civil War. And that's just what the powers that be want.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 24, 2020, 04:54:29 PM
You see, I don't believe that.  I believe that the elections are rigged, and I believe that all the leading candidates are totally controlled.
Well you're wrong. the problem with Trump is, is he's NOT TOTALLY CONTROLLED.

He has been a thorn in the their ass for 4yrs. He has gone wayy outside the box opposing the globalists.

Let me tell you, he has them all pissed off to no end. The Chinese, the Arabs, the commies in Europe.

They all just met at Davos recently, all the big boys (Soros and co.) and basically called him out and targeted him with extinction. the one thing they DIDN'T WANT, was to Make America Great Again. they think America is their personal plaything thing and cash-cow to be manipulated at will. And Trump wasn't going along. so, he had to go. By the CONTROLLERS.

Hence "Covid-19" and the destruction of the economy.

Do you REALLY think this "corona-virus" BS just came out of nowhere? Just now? No freaking way.

No the point is, they NEVER  wanted Trump in there, because they knew they COULDN'T CONTROL HIM.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 24, 2020, 05:01:06 PM

Quote
You see, I don't believe that.  I believe that the elections are rigged, and I believe that all the leading candidates are totally controlled.

If this were true, then because the choice doesn't matter, it is even LESS of a moral issue to vote for the 'lessor of two evils' because the whole system is a joke.  If you truly believe your vote doesn't count, because things are rigged, then voting for a candidate based purely on earthly/utilitarian reasons is no problem.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 24, 2020, 05:01:12 PM
Well you're wrong. the problem with Trump is, is he's NOT TOTALLY CONTROLLED.

No, I'm not.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 24, 2020, 05:02:23 PM
If this were true, then because the choice doesn't matter, it is even LESS of a moral issue to vote for the 'lessor of two evils' because the whole system is a joke.  If you truly believe your vote doesn't count, because things are rigged, then voting for a candidate based purely on earthly/utilitarian reasons is no problem.

No, if the vote is just symbolic, a declaration of who I support, then why would I declare my support for a positively evil candidate like Trump.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 24, 2020, 05:03:03 PM
I didn't say that Candidate #1 was Trump.  I was making an argumentum ad absurdum against the so-called "lesser evil" position with two hypothetical candidates, with one being 100% evil, and the second being 98% evil.  Lesser evil would say you could (or even had to) vote for the guy who's 98% evil.
You put the guy in there where we have the best chance of surviving for now. You live to fight another day.

That IS the point here. do you people know nothing about strategy?

The choice here is;


Trump- 98% chance of going back to somewhat normalcy and the country making a rebound.

Biden- 100% retard who will hand over the country within 6 months to  his little black svengali who will systematically destroy. Then hand it over to the globalists and America will be no more and merged into a planetary primordial soup.
Some choice.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 24, 2020, 05:04:20 PM
Quote
They will come and take everything you have, enslave you and your family, if they don't just outright kill you.

They are ALREADY threatening to do that NOW.

I don't think most people on this thread realize the chaos/evil that is set to be unleashed in January if the Dems win.  They've already unleashed chaos in certain cities.  That's just a warmup.  Commie laws will be passed so fast it's gonna make our heads spin.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 24, 2020, 05:07:56 PM
Now, the favorite and most effective tactic of the Jewish bankers who run the world is to convince people that they do not run the world ... or that they don't exist.
That didn't work in early twentieth century Germany.

It took buying off the entire Anglo-Saxon Western world and their Eastern  bolshevik buddies to overcome that.

But don't look for a global Catholic resistance now. they even have the pope in their pocket.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 24, 2020, 05:08:16 PM
Quote
No, if the vote is just symbolic, a declaration of who I support, then why would I declare my support for a positively evil candidate like Trump.

If the vote doesn't matter, why not vote for a LITTLE MORE TIME.  A few more chances at going to mass?  A few more years before there's gangs running wild in every neighborhood or govt "health workers" showing up at your house?
.
If the vote was truly rigged, we'd have had the NWO 20 years ago.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 24, 2020, 05:12:48 PM

Quote
No, if the vote is just symbolic, a declaration of who I support, then why would I declare my support for a positively evil candidate like Trump.

You can't argue that votes are irrelevant and that evil has already won, while at the same time saying one is morally responsible for voting in an irrelevant system.  Votes either matter or they don't.  If they don't matter, then voting for a "preference" isn't wrong.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 24, 2020, 05:13:11 PM
I don't think most people on this thread realize the chaos/evil that is set to be unleashed in January if the Dems win.  They've already unleashed chaos in certain cities.  That's just a warmup.  Commie laws will be passed so fast it's gonna make our heads spin.
Yes, that's true. they are clueless. this stuff happens real quick.

Do you think the Russian aristocracy and bourgeoisie thought they were really in danger prior Oct 1917?

No, the terror came quickly and even the peasant farmers weren't spared.

Don't think it can't happen again.

In fact, I believe the  Fatima warnings stated just that.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: St Ignatius on August 24, 2020, 05:14:06 PM
I don't think most people on this thread realize the chaos/evil that is set to be unleashed in January if the Dems win.  They've already unleashed chaos in certain cities.  That's just a warmup.  Commie laws will be passed so fast it's gonna make our heads spin.

Maybe not those who are "On this thread, " but I'm sure they're are many, like myself, who are reading this thread and understanding it with great concern... keep up the good work P.V. and alaric as well. It's very difficult in these times to keep a level head.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 24, 2020, 05:15:31 PM
If they want Biden to win in November, then Biden will win.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: St Ignatius on August 24, 2020, 05:18:55 PM
If they want Biden to win in November, then Biden will win.

You give (((THEM))) WAY too much credit... 
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 24, 2020, 06:09:22 PM

Quote
You give (((THEM))) WAY too much credit...
Right.  The commies had total control of Poland and Hungary in the 80s and 90s.  Now those countries have leaders who are passing laws upholding the natural law, re-asserting their Catholic heritage and supporting family values.  So how did the commies lose control?  They got bored and left the country?  Does prayer not count for anything?  Does God leave us orphans and let the evil forces do whatever they want?  The NWO doesn't control everything; not by a long shot.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Miseremini on August 24, 2020, 06:51:59 PM
If they want Biden to win in November, then Biden will win.
So does that mean they didn't want Hillary to win four years ago?

Or do you think they just got that powerful recently?
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 24, 2020, 07:00:33 PM
So does that mean they didn't want Hillary to win four years ago?

Or do you think they just got that powerful recently?

Correct.  They wanted Trump in there.

Imagine if we had Hillary in there during the COVID scam.  Most Republicans would not have gone along with it.  Also, having Trump in there helped fuel the race riots.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 24, 2020, 07:38:57 PM
Quote
Correct.  They wanted Trump in there.

I could just as easily argue that Hillary would've given us the NWO easier and quicker - start WW3, add the financial crisis, kill billions of people through food shortages, sicknesses from privations, and war, usher in communism and a global currency/govt, along with Francis' one-world religion as a "peaceful" end to the war, which would make the covid scam unnecessary.  It was all setup for that.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Clemens Maria on August 24, 2020, 09:03:13 PM
What if you’re wrong and (((they))) don’t have complete control over everything?  Then the only thing to do is vote for Trump and hope for the best.  But if you’re right, then the only thing to do is pray and do penance.  Why don’t you hedge your bet a little and pray and do penance AND vote for Trump?  Then you can’t go wrong.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 24, 2020, 09:31:12 PM
Trump has the advantage of making traditionalists think they're making progress, when it's clear we're not. Truth is a joke to Trump, but he will use any and all support he gets into framing the conflict in a way that suits him and the powers that be. The democrats are the most transparent libs on the planet and republicans are only sophisticated in their liberalism next to them. All you need is one or two degrees of separation and most give up on following the story. Capitalist Trump loves the same kinds of big businesses that are effectively ruling our country like a stealth oligarchy, and pulling off all these incredibly unfair and evil policies to help squelch real traditional conservatism more effectively than had they ever made laws to enforce it. Supporting Jews they way he does means that nothing socially progressive will ever reverse itself under his term. The Jews are at the very forefront of antichrist culture. And they will work together whether they need to be Neocons or Bolsheviks. It functions as a closed circuit.


I still can't get over the fact that the most "conservative" Supreme Court in recent memory actually mandated Transgender rights. Only 3 dissented! Scalia strageically flopped on the Gay Marriage garbage, but the Court back then wasn't as heavily stacked as it supposedly is now. Does anyone here doubt that Trump would be part of the majority decision if he had been on the bench?

How many times do you have to see the man behind the curtain before you figure it out? Our politics is a joke. If you vote, vote but please don't come here to try to convince me he is somehow a good man or that he is a good choice. Don't try to dress it up. It's a vote fit for cattle, not men. Please Dems don't kill us! We want a slower walk through the corral!
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Matthew on August 24, 2020, 09:36:28 PM
What if you’re wrong and (((they))) don’t have complete control over everything?  Then the only thing to do is vote for Trump and hope for the best.  But if you’re right, then the only thing to do is pray and do penance.  Why don’t you hedge your bet a little and pray and do penance AND vote for Trump?  Then you can’t go wrong.

There are some "blackpilled" Catholics in this thread, for example Ladislaus. "Blackpill" means you consider the situation to be completely hopeless.

A few others have said something I've heard many people say over the years: that the Jews (at the top) don't have complete control, that it's NOT hopeless, that they want you to THINK they have complete control so as to demoralize you, etc.

I suppose blackpilled Catholics can point out that the Chastisement is inevitable, and that they DO have hope, for after the Chastisement (some will survive it). 
So I guess I can't accuse them of despair or lack of Faith.

Nevertheless, every time yet another person says "don't surrender before the time", "they're not as powerful as they think they are", etc. it rings true with me, it resonates with the part of me that seeks out the truth at all times. It sounds wise and probably true.

I think we shouldn't put too much hope in Trump, but perhaps it wouldn't be the worst thing to go ahead and vote for him anyhow -- just as a way of standing up and being counted, as one of those who DOES NOT stand with BLM, DOES NOT stand with the Mainstream Media, etc. Even if the whole fight is arranged, it still behooves us to stand on the good side -- or at least the better of the two sides.

Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 24, 2020, 09:53:27 PM
What is it about Trump that is hopeful? Of course he can go against "Mainstream media" when there's a whole fleet of "alt-media" modern republicans watch more. Is Alex Jones better than mass media or simply different? All we have are Russel conjugations tailored to each false side in the conflict. The more you follow it, the more you fall in line with their agitprop. I have hope in God, not in this WWE political sham. 
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: trad123 on August 24, 2020, 10:05:11 PM
Perhaps there's hope that this republic will fall in the future, and that we might yet have a Catholic nation or several in place of the republic.

Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 24, 2020, 11:11:05 PM

Quote
I suppose blackpilled Catholics can point out that the Chastisement is inevitable, and that they DO have hope, for after the Chastisement (some will survive it). 
So I guess I can't accuse them of despair or lack of Faith.

Contrary to Croixalist's defeatist, doom-and-gloom despair, the Chastisement while inevitable, can be mitigated.  That's why so many of the prophecies seem to paint slightly different pictures of the same time period.  Because prayer and sacrifice works wonders; because, just like Ninevah repented and was spared, so too, can our nation (and even Europe) be spared at this late hour.  As Abraham asked God to spare Sodom if 10 just men could be found, so too, can our country be spared if just the few of us on this site do our best to please God.  Is this not possible?  Surely it is!
.
Maybe it's too late for God to fully spare America, for her many sins.  But we may well be able to change course a bit.  God's mercy is limitless and the future is not set!
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Tallinn Trad on August 25, 2020, 01:06:24 AM
When I witness the satanic rage that the left and the liberal clergy have for Trump I cannot believe they are faking that. 

I have seen the same satanic rage outside abortion clinics and on the March for Life. 

Something about Trump absolutely enrages them like they were never enraged by either father and son Bush or Ronald Reagan.

I would vote for Trump for that reason alone.  Sure he is weak, a liar, sinful but for some reason the godless scum really hate him.  A house divided against itself.... 

Plus, I like seeing them suffer. 
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 25, 2020, 05:03:00 AM
Contrary to Croixalist's defeatist, doom-and-gloom despair, the Chastisement while inevitable, can be mitigated.  That's why so many of the prophecies seem to paint slightly different pictures of the same time period.  Because prayer and sacrifice works wonders; because, just like Ninevah repented and was spared, so too, can our nation (and even Europe) be spared at this late hour.  As Abraham asked God to spare Sodom if 10 just men could be found, so too, can our country be spared if just the few of us on this site do our best to please God.  Is this not possible?  Surely it is!
.
Maybe it's too late for God to fully spare America, for her many sins.  But we may well be able to change course a bit.  God's mercy is limitless and the future is not set!

Jonah warned Nineveh, he didn't get busy trying to get involved with their politics. This is 100% part of our chastisement as a nation that we have to witness these disgusting people rule over us. I'm not all doom-and-gloom, but this political system has to be rebooted. God could suddenly convert all three branches of government, but there is simply no precedent for that anywhere in Church history. Trump is about as likely to convert as any of those other cretins. I fully reserve the right to be a doubt Thomas regarding any of this Trump pollyanna business until I see a glimpse of genuine good will from him.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Stubborn on August 25, 2020, 05:37:28 AM
You see, I don't believe that.  I believe that the elections are rigged, and I believe that all the leading candidates are totally controlled.
I've always believed that, heck, I never even registered to vote until the last Primaries and only did so out of a faint hope of doing my part against all the media/dem evils and lies. Which is to say that while I still believe it, I don't believe it absolutely. The jews have a play book for every situation.

Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on August 25, 2020, 06:05:04 AM
What is it about Trump that is hopeful? Of course he can go against "Mainstream media" when there's a whole fleet of "alt-media" modern republicans watch more. Is Alex Jones better than mass media or simply different? All we have are Russel conjugations tailored to each false side in the conflict. The more you follow it, the more you fall in line with their agitprop. I have hope in God, not in this WWE political sham.
The greatest accomplishment of Trump is his exposure of the great conspiracy. A house divided against itself will fall. Ask yourself, assuming Trump was the greatest actor ever, why would the conspirators allow themselves to be exposed in such a broad way to those who still believed in the left/right paradigm? For those of us who have know about the conspiracy since at least the 1980’s, this makes no sense at all. If they put Hillary in, it would have been game over in no time at all.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Stubborn on August 25, 2020, 06:41:05 AM
If they put Hillary in, it would have been game over in no time at all.
I think this also but I also wonder how true this is. I mean, would the jew media have agitated the Right into a frenzy like they've agitated the Left, or what would they do? Would they simply declare communism? lock up all resisters? mandate total lawlessness country wide? tax us into starvation etc.?  
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 25, 2020, 07:11:38 AM

Quote
what would they do?

Start the financial crisis, which leads to WW3, which kill billions of people through food shortages, sicknesses from privations, bio-warfare and/or nuclear fallout...all while the elites hide in their bunkers.  In the aftermath of the chaos, the middle class is gone and all that's left are sick/starving people who will be happy with any help from the govt.  The nations of the world sign a peace treaty with the UN as global govt, and a new global currency to fix the economic problems.  The UN declares peace in the Middle East, and Francis tells the new global society that "all religions are one" to start a one-world religion.  The NWO begins.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: PAT317 on August 25, 2020, 07:34:46 AM
Start the financial crisis, which leads to ... The NWO begins.
Good description of the first half of this year.  The rest of the ... is coming fast, but they're certainly started it this year already. 
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on August 25, 2020, 07:47:42 AM
I think this also but I also wonder how true this is. I mean, would the jew media have agitated the Right into a frenzy like they've agitated the Left, or what would they do? Would they simply declare communism? lock up all resisters? mandate total lawlessness country wide? tax us into starvation etc.?  
I’m not positive Stubborn, but I think of the mindset of most conservatives (including my own) at the end of Obama’s regime was one of hopelessness (not in a spiritual sense, of course). Frankly, I thought that we were cooked. Trump gave us hope, a rallying point. Without someone to rally around there would be no way, humanly speaking, we would be able to overcome the conspirators. What would be the point of installing Trump, it only made their final objective harder.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on August 25, 2020, 07:53:41 AM
Start the financial crisis, which leads to WW3, which kill billions of people through food shortages, sicknesses from privations, bio-warfare and/or nuclear fallout...all while the elites hide in their bunkers.  In the aftermath of the chaos, the middle class is gone and all that's left are sick/starving people who will be happy with any help from the govt.  The nations of the world sign a peace treaty with the UN as global govt, and a new global currency to fix the economic problems.  The UN declares peace in the Middle East, and Francis tells the new global society that "all religions are one" to start a one-world religion.  The NWO begins.
Yes, this seems likely to me. I believe they will collapse the markets probably in October.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Marys Anawim on August 25, 2020, 08:20:03 AM
And if you do distinguish between democans and republicrats, I feel even sorrier for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgGnBCDfCLM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgGnBCDfCLM)
Yes we live in a system that gives the perception of choice but they work on the same team just to control us...unfortunately most do not see this because the one sides game uses a different tactic. 
That was a very true and good video. Thank you for sharing
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: PAT317 on August 25, 2020, 09:14:39 AM
... will help usher in the closing of our chapels much sooner than a vote for Trump.
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First closing of our chapels in my lifetime was under Trump.  They will do it the same way again, even if he's reelected, by using governors of states and/or religious leaders etc...  
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...  Maybe we should try to counter that by praying more and doing more penance.  I see discussion about diets here.  Why don’t we all do the intermittent fast at least one day a week until the election along with the full Litany of the Saints daily?  For the intention for God’s guidance and protection during this time of political instability.
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Good idea.   "And he said to them: This kind can go out by nothing, but by prayer and fasting."  Mark 9:29
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: donkath on August 25, 2020, 09:44:25 AM
Politics are much the same in Australia although we have compulsory voting  Reading through this thread it strikes me that the ones who will not vote will be the ones with moral issues.  It will be the opposite for those who back the Dems.  They will push to get as many votes as they can.   So it seems to me that by abstaining one is helping the Dems.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Cera on August 25, 2020, 12:06:34 PM
You see, I don't believe that.  I believe that the elections are rigged, and I believe that all the leading candidates are totally controlled.
I agree that until 2016 the presidential elections were rigged, starting with the primaries. Meet the new boss same as the old boss.
2016 was rigged, with all the stops pulled out. They even had the complicity of the alphabet police. They rigged the polls, knowing that most people will vote for the perceived winner. Dead people and illegals voted.
To sat they were shocked that all of their vote tempering and media manipulation failed is an understatement. Their temper tantrum since Trump's election affirms that.
Trump is the ONLY president to ever wade into the satanic cesspool called the UN and give a speech praising God and nationhood. He did not say those things out of ignorance. He knows what they are and he was taunting them, calling them out.
Trump is the ONLY president to ever speak at the Jan 22 March for LIfe. Read his speech. I've been involved in the battle since 1970 and have been blessed to have heart most of the well-known pro-life speeches in person. I heard Trump's on TV and it was the best pro-life speech of all time IMHO.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Cera on August 25, 2020, 12:10:59 PM
I don't think most people on this thread realize the chaos/evil that is set to be unleashed in January if the Dems win.  They've already unleashed chaos in certain cities.  That's just a warmup.  Commie laws will be passed so fast it's gonna make our heads spin.
You are correct. If they had the depth of understanding of how close we are to the precipice, they would not be engaging in "how many angels on the head of a pin" type sophism.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 25, 2020, 12:11:56 PM
You are correct. If they had the depth of understanding of how close we are to the precipice, they would not be engaging in "how many angels on the head of a pin" type sophism.

Cera, this is not sophism, nor technicalities.  It's an attempt to understand the CATHOLIC principles behind voting for bad candidates, like the pro-sodomite Trump.  We're trying to inform our consciences and do what pleases God.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Cera on August 25, 2020, 12:15:50 PM
Yes, that's true. they are clueless. this stuff happens real quick.

Do you think the Russian aristocracy and bourgeoisie thought they were really in danger prior Oct 1917?

No, the terror came quickly and even the peasant farmers weren't spared.

Don't think it can't happen again.

In fact, I believe the  Fatima warnings stated just that.
Yes. Last week someone posted that he was thinking of moving to somewhere where he could be self-sufficient. Buddy, that ship sailed a long time ago. Those who are not already well trained in how to protect their families from physical harm are going to have to pay top dollar now.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Cera on August 25, 2020, 12:53:33 PM
If they want Biden to win in November, then Biden will win.
Murderous and well-connected Hillary was expected to win by the PTB, and she did NOT. They didn't get want they wanted.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Cera on August 25, 2020, 12:54:46 PM
Right.  The commies had total control of Poland and Hungary in the 80s and 90s.  Now those countries have leaders who are passing laws upholding the natural law, re-asserting their Catholic heritage and supporting family values.  So how did the commies lose control?  They got bored and left the country?  Does prayer not count for anything?  Does God leave us orphans and let the evil forces do whatever they want?  The NWO doesn't control everything; not by a long shot.
Thank you for that. God is in control. Prayer changes things.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Cera on August 25, 2020, 01:00:29 PM
Contrary to Croixalist's defeatist, doom-and-gloom despair, the Chastisement while inevitable, can be mitigated.  That's why so many of the prophecies seem to paint slightly different pictures of the same time period.  Because prayer and sacrifice works wonders; because, just like Ninevah repented and was spared, so too, can our nation (and even Europe) be spared at this late hour.  As Abraham asked God to spare Sodom if 10 just men could be found, so too, can our country be spared if just the few of us on this site do our best to please God.  Is this not possible?  Surely it is!
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Maybe it's too late for God to fully spare America, for her many sins.  But we may well be able to change course a bit.  God's mercy is limitless and the future is not set!
My logic goes against this hope. But hope is a supernatural virtue, so thank you.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Cera on August 25, 2020, 01:01:26 PM
Plus, I like seeing them suffer.
I love how Trump trolls them.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 25, 2020, 01:16:15 PM

Quote
Jonah warned Nineveh, he didn't get busy trying to get involved with their politics.
Newsflash:  You are a Ninevite, not Jonah.  All of us American Ninevites have to do penance.
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Quote
This is 100% part of our chastisement as a nation that we have to witness these disgusting people rule over us. I'm not all doom-and-gloom, but this political system has to be rebooted.
Agree, but that doesn't mean that America has to turn fully commie before it's rebooted.
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Quote
I fully reserve the right to be a doubt Thomas regarding any of this Trump pollyanna business until I see a glimpse of genuine good will from him.

You've not seen one glimpse of good?  Is that the extent of your despair?  Or do you just listen to the mainstream media?
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 25, 2020, 01:30:04 PM
Murderous and well-connected Hillary was expected to win by the PTB, and she did NOT. They didn't get want they wanted.

No, if she didn't win it was because they didn't want her too.  They control the voting machines.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on August 25, 2020, 02:00:07 PM
No, if she didn't win it was because they didn't want her too.  They control the voting machines.
They control the machines and even more so in 2020, but not completely. I’ll grant these evil people have a lot of power and are guided by demons, however they are not invincible.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 25, 2020, 02:36:56 PM
They control the machines and even more so in 2020, but not completely. I’ll grant these evil people have a lot of power and are guided by demons, however they are not invincible.

Right.  I'm not a quietist where I believe we should do nothing but sit back and wait for God to sort it out.  We have to try our best do to what we can.  I'm just saying that going to the voting booth in November is not trying.  It's like playing a carnival game where you play a rigged game.  You're to throw a ball through a hoop but the hoop is too small for the ball to fit.  So trying in that scenario is an exercise in futility.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 25, 2020, 04:24:41 PM
If they want Biden to win in November, then Biden will win.
What happens if (they)) wanted all Catholics sent to the gulags after the election IF Biden wins? (which is a possibility)

Would you still stay home because that's what ((they)) want?

What about what God wants? 

Your problem is you put more faith in the will of ((they)) than GOD

Remember, no matter what happens , GOD is in control.

But that doesn't mean you sit on your ass and just "let things happen".
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 25, 2020, 04:34:03 PM
Quote
Good idea.   "And he said to them: This kind can go out by nothing, but by prayer and fasting."  Mark 9:29
I hear a lot of this "prayer and fasting" and just have faith and let the chastisement and martyrdom come.

But what about doing something about it in the meantime. God does NOT expect you to just sit there and accept the inevitable. You have to fight against evil until the last breath. It's not just Faith.

Because Faith without works.....IS DEAD.

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does itprofit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202%3A14-26&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-30312a)]your works, and I will show you my faith by [b (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202%3A14-26&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-30312b)]my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202%3A14-26&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-30314c)]dead? - James 2: 14-20
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 25, 2020, 04:35:49 PM
I agree that until 2016 the presidential elections were rigged, starting with the primaries. Meet the new boss same as the old boss.
2016 was rigged, with all the stops pulled out. They even had the complicity of the alphabet police. They rigged the polls, knowing that most people will vote for the perceived winner. Dead people and illegals voted.
To sat they were shocked that all of their vote tempering and media manipulation failed is an understatement. Their temper tantrum since Trump's election affirms that.
Trump is the ONLY president to ever wade into the satanic cesspool called the UN and give a speech praising God and nationhood. He did not say those things out of ignorance. He knows what they are and he was taunting them, calling them out.
Trump is the ONLY president to ever speak at the Jan 22 March for LIfe. Read his speech. I've been involved in the battle since 1970 and have been blessed to have heart most of the well-known pro-life speeches in person. I heard Trump's on TV and it was the best pro-life speech of all time IMHO.
Well stated.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 25, 2020, 04:39:23 PM
Cera, this is not sophism, nor technicalities.  It's an attempt to understand the CATHOLIC principles behind voting for bad candidates, like the pro-sodomite Trump.  We're trying to inform our consciences and do what pleases God.
How bout what offends God less. 

More death of the innocents.

Or

Trump pandering to homos for a vote that is desperately close.

Remember one thing. Sodomites at least have a choice.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: richard on August 25, 2020, 04:40:27 PM
After reading some of this thread I decided to write to Bp. Williamson and ask his advice. He replied and gave me permission to post his reply here. 



By all means vote for Trump.  I think you are right. It would be suicide not to vote for him. The United States risks right now being torn apart by an anarchic rabble paid for and steered by the New World Order.  Trump is far from ideal -- you quote his pro-gay "stance" -- because he is torn between his decent instincts and his ideological weakness due to his lack of a firm Faith to clarify, balance and reinforce those instincts.  He has no lack of courage or love of country, but nobody can go up against tanks with a pea-shooter, and the New World Order has many tanks, a positive ideology of wickedness which has generated the swamp of Satanism, paedophilia and child sacrifice, for instance, that Trump undertook to drain. Probably he now knows better quite what he is up against than when he first became president.

We Catholics know that the world is involved in the final battle at world's end between Satan and Christ, through His Mother. The enemy, as St Paul says, is not mere human beings but fallen angels. It is a pitched battle at the highest spiritual level, of which even instinctively decent men like Trump are largely ignorant --  pea-shooters -- because they have led most of their lives in effect without God and are therefore blind to the highest realities. On the contrary, many of Trump's enemies are conscious and practising servants of Satan -- tanks -- who have for the longest time been working to enslave the USA and corrupt all of its remaining decency, so that the sheeple of "democracy" can all be turned into the real sheep of Hell. As usual, the children of this world are smarter than the children of God, at least in things of the world.

So if you want to give a little more time to the USA before it throws itself into the arms of Satan, vote for Trump. If you want Satan to take over the USA as soon as possible, vote for Biden. And if you do not care one way or the other, do not vote -- BUT -- do pray the Rosary, all fifteen Mysteries, every day, for your country and for the next POTUS from November.  No Catholic can argue with that.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 25, 2020, 04:44:39 PM
I love how Trump trolls them.
They deserved to be mocked.

And yes, our Lord approves;


Psalm 2:4
He who sits in the heavens laughs,
The Lord scoffs at them.

Psalm 37:13
The Lord laughs at him,
For He sees his day is coming.

Psalm 59:8
But You, O Lord, laugh at them;
You scoff at all the nations.

Proverbs 3:34
Though He scoffs at the scoffers,
Yet He gives grace to the afflicted.

Proverbs 1:26
I will also laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when your dread comes,



Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 25, 2020, 04:49:34 PM
Quote
So if you want to give a little more time to the USA before it throws itself into the arms of Satan, vote for Trump. If you want Satan to take over the USA as soon as possible, vote for Biden.
Damn, this is exactly what I was saying! I have not read any of what the Bishop had to say on the election. this all comes from my years of the Faith and what I know in my heart. a blind man could see what we have to do here.

Thank you for posting this richard.

And thank you Bishop Williamson!
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 25, 2020, 04:54:22 PM
Murderous and well-connected Hillary was expected to win by the PTB, and she did NOT. They didn't get want they wanted.
Because maybe God got what he wanted.
God is in control of history. not ((they)).
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 25, 2020, 05:00:55 PM
They control the machines and even more so in 2020, but not completely. I’ll grant these evil people have a lot of power and are guided by demons, however they are not invincible.
That is absolutely correct . THEY CAN BE BEATEN.

Our Faith, for 2000yrs has proven this.

And remember, this is a GLOBAL battle we are in.

Stop the damn defeatism.

Have FAITH in our Lord and with the help of Our Lady we can win and WE WILL WIN!

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTENSKR90pKmN0QtnoQiQqdF87f-00BqXc86w&usqp=CAU)

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BHGsdSGCZmWWwSAE5lKAsEhRVbxAiDNe62uyzFi2tPoZMSrJNQSE93KdSCFP5EOPFxGecY4hOpyB2pWmY4DjKfEjcekdJxZpi3LAgMPW5hP4rxvt5ou4QGHnrAYcLq9tdDcl8J6Zq/4S8fdssUE0AFCP0Vv7SU6oUP5AaEagdL6mpUfj/CK9cmolTpZZSFpIPn8CHHnH6r4dxZNTJStLPoocj9IX9dh4UnPggT5bYVyWivNIeJphtEPYZiBB432tHPwBOLqMz6RSUAuCFFr2FzZx4+UZxOlZV99wdGbQRsc2WOzmJGrEP5GEaoRKWGUQCCoaOTc2tuC4jfq3q1/KKfpcjUNChiVQmcssp2Fhv4naFHG8JUVAoDnlGsUnB6UylVK9W7iRsCfbVzs5aA8yjQnvOCo2Cd/PlGTTxtP+xtZFkTRliaeeju5VBtmj0a5L4fzAFWp1v8A1Hoo+9X+JLqfyOFUJZyKcJXYvfxuBpFmYuynbKXI8PpC/VKTmA390WqucfyttQkjzhaxpPkZv0JldxHLVNDOEBRuPaU3Lk8WsI4ryTgxJRu7Hu7gFhGbSQta2L2s3Uawz8NpJVkH6ZOijd+Y6OHHjC7xqPkvJbCVLRsNRWAqZA5F+QPSPqVwPwoKYqIBdxf0Dfe8X5iSA8FT62Qtd6BePV+WWWOsZhxrSmbTKAupJChq5bXzYmHniKa6gOTfWFjEFOnxP38IXF7tNDlOoaMbRNIII1EW0YpMT7J+sQV6WmLbTMph5mK8expMiVVPhhBWNT2I7VQB2BtDv+GkyXUdpJnzFJZLgvr1u4ceEZyBBPC8amSEqSgIIVc5kvdm1+9TC7xpzpIZjytVumFuO0olVJRJn9onKAcpNjex2fwhWJjtcwqUVG5JcxyYOJ4rQF1yps6l6jxEbt+GuIZFhJ9lYbz2PyjD6APMS/P4RpnC9QUzEeI90S/WLcjMPs3ZKw0WKK5JgKieycxICRqToIkqcfkypRIWFKILZQ4fx0s/OI/p9q0348hXO1pEGM4kiSpYUu6tEg6f8j1jOjOKp4TJOYk7kKSkE6sDbzv5xUx+sM+ejVVyVAfubQAAH7EMWCziqfKlmTlD7pYhKbliNrRqnbS9f+spT4S9eS9xziS5U2SmWohQS2UPfUO2hDWhcwMqFXM7SwAzF9rbbDaGDipS581KpZCRKPtNYBxmfmS1gNYF1tV2qmCWS97d5TaZvpoHMNtJ236FqtYlPsIqxhGyVEcxp8Y9FT8t1SOkfIdyon1Iqq4nXnBWcx0AsGfwvaGafiqhJKBlSpaXAWXIdxmATrpp9Iz3BqQpGZhnO6g7QanS1qmSc81KiAUqZkszqYAbEH3RPa0+mWqNrbQDo6NcucvObg3HXV7wyYZRmYxQGZQ+3gpimHlbT5mQK0CUl8yUjc7qHw8ImoJycncRbU35kC/wHjCc2Rvv2OhuVpGj4fTJ7JLaMNddIWMXxCfKmqQGbYgDQ6bwRGNBLSU3UEpfkNNeUCOM6gIKV80h/fFXOKWl5SR56mlXfsC4liByqWtAsCSfAeMLprBMlpVu1+hGoi9iM8TJM1tMh+9ITKKsIJTsp/XnHRCfaDp66YvcQSMs9baEv6i8DgIKcQKeYT96CBoEXz4JK8nMfdo6VHJjTD6gR4iJaZIKmJYNr4B47qJyGZA8SY7Zx9wr/cBjQuHZwykhIJB1t84zSmUyofuFphTLWoX9m3qITmna2Nxv0aNQz11MqbImEjMh07l0kWADPaFvGsOmSZSZqM+RRfs5llto5A0EXeGsTUuYyAMzFtXdtA9r6PfWL/FGIGaspLaMWux3vvEOTU6LMK87MwXXlC0zEkpUlQNyS7XDj3eEbtgE9E2Wmai+eW4PLMxaMPx7CVZsyQ7+sGeDuLptL+muUpabM7gpHi2kV43PTJ8sN9I0fiZkKShNrA+Ki7q+XlA6hkA3dj1PwiHH8clz1JWCAMoby1j7h88WI5eUC1Lt68Adqew0mjtrHojM3/m0eh3BfgVszSmKUJvYC0cS5+eaFJJIHMffSGqhwSUwSsvnBH/S2hHq8Dp2FCQsJcOQSX5gtHn7T2z1JyP9qCVNjaEoCVKcpLgftcbK6QyYfj9KXZKUKUxUQzZtiW+McHDZfYhSZaE9wE/yuORva8Z/iSOxmZxYWYc+YgqwufYpZVb00aZQYauZNCxkMrN3ygjM+veFrepv4x8/EqiJlCam4FlB+dh66eYhNwzjKZTg5UpOdu693+UMVXjk2dS1EqpldkoyStLXCku7pPS0Hh+2p0/LAyq+Sr0hMH+zO/6Tz+d/WEOpUxDQ8LRlpqkM2VCuXI2sSG84z9ayoxRjQnJRSri5eK0XKmSWJ2iukQ9CGzlo5aJCI43gjj5zjkiOxExAEsHUqf3RhxWRrDzw1/sTP+34wkJF4b+G5zSpnTL84DIug48jVwqppoOh6Nr5Hn5xpGJYVLVS5lJSCpiLAEE7v9u8ZfweoGcABzfX5/d4dvxAxYlEmXsvvqGj5WAHqX8omuklS96HRLq1pgxGElN1s2sSz8ETOkrLZXICbaq5ekV+Fp5mzjLWTbTn0EN2KTuxllnZiBozv6vpEc4q07fhD6yfLh7MdxOo7N5age6TZ2IOjjofkI74PxwonplLJMtZCdfZJOojvielJJmJTcly+8LdFMCJqFnRKgbdDFmHTnYrN09G4TSkE3MegWjEpawFCYkggbiPQ/kibTLE5KS+iVH/AOP/AOT108NYG4TTKUpcxaCSFEsr+RJ/z1aDlXTlQJb6xVpq5UsZSM6dhuPA/IwhY4VbGrLXHRZMvLKmkrP+2VHUDqb76xn1djUpc3MZYWlDlibOxAB21Puhn/EGafyyspZwk+KSQfvwjJxP9rxEFklU9ILC9LbNAwOUmY045U5CQAA+rMot7TX9RD1w9NIUkzqhM1S84ljI3dLOkEXGjsXtCPwJiHZkCyk2LFIO4PlDtRYZmqBMS+TvZWsBmH8RuHaI42sukWZUuD5C3xjh/ZSatQDJXLUpIFgLF0t4+4iM3w+jM4tKSpagHIA0G5PIRvfFGDZqWYVsphdFw6VEJIcaGMgxFUuSrs6ZAQCl1uS5VyckkgWtbeLOTnr2QcOYJxLBZyZJJlKvyZXqA5H+YV0w7UeLTBNS5zEqGhbcOL6BoJVdBhwdXYKmTVqJPfyyk7dwBrG5c7xqz66pGr6dv9rM4jhMXsZSgTV9mkoT/F3Y7gHUh4oRQntbEtaejzQfxTA0JT+ktasouFhIfchISSx1119xESEEt4290MmCzu1UQu6iNTvzELy05W0NxKXtUK8uxhi4eWCJoHJPxMDsZoRKmlLaHT/idCPH6wYwFAYsgJCtVOS7Hr4xtVuQJn5D3g1HMpaI1iWWZpI7zjJLCrtfcj4WihjOPicJRLDswQwTq5uC6uTehhrq1JRSy5YUpSRJyhJDAkkqzKDnV/hGNYi6VnXw8Yl6u3opScztml4NRqK0z5CguzECykkX08IdDLQqWlU0AouXN/HwjKvwurlCqUlyxlks+pSQB/5GH7Ep6kJCHOXM48CHh+KOK010T5aboGcR0CFE9mHQQNBYPsIX53CMphmBCjo1rdIbplRluwI3HPeKMmuK5uckAaJT4RLliorU+x0XuewIr8OiLCeodCBHocJmJIBIKhaPQznH+QHzCU0OC7F4D1UghzbLBjLl7qttP8xBUpzJYDb3w2ltikBsUCVUy8wfIkm/8TqPAH4xjiw5Yc2jYlgpBYtt66jqIo4bg1GJgX2Hfcfu/T6nJ8haMfx7Gy0DuE5CkyiBZTakdI1DAJS5UhKV6kv5nn1j5NoqYy0rCQFJYjKGtyVzHSJBUXFrafCERi4ZHTYzJm5zpI7x2jmT6dUuW3ety72xJ5Rkv4j4GiimS0+2FSwSo7rHdUEtsGFuojWJ+NJlAgJzb2t6wKpKT8wEVNZKQlEklcpJuSdlK6ck7ljsIfUqmKinIn8FcBLWBUVn6Egd5KSAJihzU/sDxv0GsUeMuIcNSk0lBTS1EuFT1AkpIf2FqJV6WvBX8ROIp8yVN7PN2aEg21OY5c6hslNz4xleCysytHPn98o5cHtrwjW662DKsEly/n4CKrQwcQ0Zlgd1QBAuQ3eFiPRvfAAiHy01tCmmnphTAaUrWAAbEO3X7MGcUlflpqFgd0lyQLEWBGnnFLB6sU+U/vV7tH9PrBfHsRUqUc6kKCgfHcuANC/zifJdc0vQ+IXFv2FMQwuVWS0/tWB3F9NWVzSfdFOnwiZIzIWGUG8CCxdJ3GkVuB5kxUlb3ShTDmHDnyEbfSJQuSJapaVhKbBQBBUHL+jekZMVO5b8eAKpdNCRSg1MorT3cjIKXuLAAjp1hK4swfszmSCf5HX1jbKegky5aiJICld0JQnmWGnq+0RKwKSlBTND6uNz/Q5QqIvknKDeZa0zD+B69MislqUO6p0EvoF2f1aNNxuoCggDW7/AQqcRcN08mbnlpOTXKolgenTpEuH1CiHd+nJ+cVcvQmkn2HUewEj0/vwhdxT9JQuWHeSG1Lm5L3Y9IMpqdo5kzAqahCw4zbi2r25GAzJuUHhaT7PsigmrSFhJ7wf1j0Msyqvawj7C/wBHj/LN/UUTzZgMsEalX1/qI0TAb8vsmPVaGyefwAiOXLdm8PWKql7ESypWJvAmcjKoEaQ4zMHJDjTcb+MKGIhSJxlkWfXZtvlC8ktLsOKTHDCgDKD7s3gA3yibEFsAQNDeOpcsJQgfxT8BEVDPSszEqbKAcyj+0Dd+hgta6MZWo6YLKp05hKQ7vueXh8dIGY1jhnlgCmUDZPPkT9I6x7Es5TKAUiWkDIDYqP8AJT7nbxgJMmMl+RifI2ukNhe2WsNq++LB/le3nF7FeH6IoUaaSmTUKAzZE91QOvd0BZ9G5QuYbZWbV/rDvSYfmmDvN3A+5hFK3LULtjFSVJv0Znx92UqWuQkOWClLV7RXYBItpqfE9IQsNpknNMWWSkP5+EPv4o0EyTVpmrByLlgA3bMlwcvkRGeVsx1aMH0inAmo0DlfJ8iKcSpT89PCOFzS4fb7aLUuW5B6CKdQLxQgLnS2ah+GslCpOUM5mjbM2YgXHhzjQBiRk1UuUpglTsG6FgDGZ/g1+pU9kpIKUgzQWunKU6HxZusbXV08lKxOWhGcAhJZyl72L69YB4rquSfSF85laaK9bia5AcoYbODpyF4TK7iZcxajoNou4/X9oWGa2rl/SFaYwfzjONK38toxa4+Oz2MzypBOu8VqZYQkav0jmoVmSR0iaho+0YE2ZzzaNldmskpZ9nA84I4Ui5ITmLgi/J/6ivJka9DBjApYAX0A+MF56OfXZamZnLM0ej4oqFo+QfEDYVrFd4W0EW8ClZlX0SH89vnEVR7ZtowgrhaSkXHN/ODXnYLLkhPdPM/YhPxqQFVEoMHzAHwJhulrZLm1/dsYXqyhJqkzAqzhwfDaOzdydj8lzEZpSlW7Cw68oXJlR2eWSLkKCpp5r1EvwSbnr4QcxWp7NJWWto/8mcHy18hCdQLJzZ9SXH1fm0R1T2UIv46lUzLMOxy+lx8YDVJAt6w50iguQtIY90vbcMbdHb0hEp0GaELUWStL5dG84LJPSf5Oh+iamV3wEt9R0EPEmqbIroxHuhM7JKRmAA1v8G6wdw+aZktQ3B03y7P1ZoCd70bXgYuIKQVtDNlLCLg5P+K0vlV7veY/PAwdUwkgjVh48hG+UleRJmBaWOU3ToQLufQ+sZ5RViVKZcsSyVdzQuL26KZ4bT3rT7Nx2pTmlszxUlUslJF02tpeB1Xr5xpWK4iJKylUoHcGzEc4gnYv2ft02Vw9wNOcdL0FdclpIg/BfEEoq5iCWK5KsnUpKVN6AnyjScQ4iXmKQMm4JDvysbCECVxDlUnLKZTjLdi8NipsupQD7ExLApOod2B6cj8xBrJvpE9Y2u2VJ0xwSdTAmqBcFtYIzZeU3D9IoVdWguzuOj/1A/ycQYZIM2alLWJ9w190PFVhEuUMyQxVY/G0JWD1R7VAR7eYMPPTwjScTR+mOYPxhmOVrYNvsT59lqHn6t/cXcJV7R8PnFOvst9iPgf8RzRTwArw+ZjtfI1+C5NnFzH2Ba55Jj0bs7RpNLTEkrP8j58oszFMrxgkmkBSyD5RWXhym5/e0PTFdFerTmSQGA6mBKQQoJV7WvkLA+/3QQWjI5JZtjtCrMxYmcohgFWfklLkgeMKy6S7Cjsp8W1ZURLB6fX108oCUUtTk5iwIA8y0SrmFcwqJdtPv1iRmdP/ACHv/qId97KfWhn4XlFlA7K9xt9fSFD/AEwykmWVk5SoA6MHO3T5Q4YHUhCCstZF+pD/ADhYq6nMVE6sSfM/5hrfwSBn9zZTTTqayjz82i/gFaJRyq/c9zoer9Ihk6eIPuitUFywGhhS/IzyNVdPSqQpMtd5gyul/Z3Y6dPWFvB+GZilvNIWyv0wElhyJDeghz4IpDMlkBakhKy4SWcED5vDpT0iZe6iealExXMTSTJrrT0ZTif4bVVQrOZqUjZKksAOne16/wCIo4x+HtSnKZk5wAz5HYeRtGyLqUvrH1NQOY+sF9lA/epGFf8AoxThQnFxo8s7ecMdLgU2TLmntO0XMyOClmyu1ubH4RoWKKBIO/iW8xvAmoUAlSn6J+BPxMd9iZWzXmqlozTEpkxJYge+BKicxf0HWGbiABZPiPvxhcmp74OzJ9bn6QlhoNcKJSKpBI5/+Jh+qw8tXrCTwkZfblUwgJSgs/MsPrDZUYrJFklTadPWKsK6FX5F3EwMiT/zUPcmBQOp6QYqUgyVEbTCR4FhA6lRYt01gWtsP0CJk1bnWPRdmILnWPQvgwuRomG4utO+nw+cM6q5K5YVmAf4iM/E1okXUTGAJtsPnGRTXkCpTCfFWLHLkBBOjiEUqJUfQeWsEaslRcaaDp1j5SUoDOW6QF06YczpFWXJIYNveJ5Mpy5HWLsqmew+/wCommU9rbA/5MKcsPYL/NOgJ6qfre3vaBRdWYjR26amCc2QE3+2AilJlkIA3JeOfgMlptOn2/uEV5S80wW1c36RbVZB5i3mbffhFWkl/qS+r/D+o7+Dh34GnBKpgHT5wzzavrCTw8vL2hB+3MEvzaiW1inDepEZJ7Ck6p3HpHqSYVEHYa/SB8nOz5XHU/CCMhQRLFtbnz29Ify32LaI6ueVFk77xDiDZco2t6bx3JWSc1mGkUMQmMDuW+xGeQRRx5YST63gEdfK31gjiNOuaosxKrb2EcKwecnURK97HJEeHzwMzjTlBiVXOlikNFBFIpIDi+zEffrEtXLKQARlXqXNmgubhbYSjk9FpVT3SNiGiLC5qQVBW7Ny3iFLkFtBz2gdOnsdIfFK9UDUudoMzpAzG/uj0Av9UULZjH2GAaH6nQwcm522/wAxyaYO7v8AekV/zScpLvAv/VcqibxPoJhqZKP8beEWqPDd1DX1gBPx1Z0LD3/1Brh7EJs1WSxSACVPpy8Y3jLeju9BFGG8tI+TcNUXSkeJ59PvpBUTEIBObTVX0jPsb4knGf8ApqKUpPd8Bz5vAZqjGv8AkbhxVkb0FqzCxLUhM2wmEsQ2qWsel/jFz/SpJDDMVHR1Bh4BngPT4+mslhK7TULBHVj7Q20dxAziPHlypyOzuQQosdgQQnzuIQ8iV9dpjlibnT6Ybm4MCznTRJtfn1gWacCZl0Um4fry56wy0tembLz/AMg9x7lDnFWdLSkupy/7suh5BhppaHXK1tCE37OcEp8qy90q99j9Ya6aXJcdxvveF2VMCSltANWbvRfk1g1JENxJJC7bbGRdLLsSNIp1dKxcMR8PrFekrHFzFkVQ/wAw9LYp7QFxCrRKDEgHkYVcRxNTHKl3s7EjzOnlD5U1cog9wHn3RCriM8pLIAAOjAW8oG5b9nS1+AZRKyh1BvIuo8ydIlnYkpVkC/NSfraPk5alG9zEkqSAHUD1hf2/5GciJNagN2ikBQ/aHd+trxDiCpa0qYglrFrj+ov060B7AfHwinUK1LNBPHtaZyrT6FJc2oSx7P0UDbwLRImcpY7yQk+PxYwVqVMH1gVNYvtC4xqPDG1bpaaKcyWQSHj0fFVKY9DtitDDKUQnKSwMVqhBsxjsLeKU2cbh4RsZou0UhS1BCbufTr4Q/YbRJkpCUHqo7k8hyEI/D9cmUolTOWH+IYF4uSbFvQRypI5y2WOLsUEoJDEgm7eHKAGG06KtfaLDI0CfD+XOIsbq+0OUt3et7jV4lwqaEAANCKjd8mUK9Y+K8jHXYKJsvIhXZtcFIH20fOH+GFSyTMmJX/AsHG9wXv5x1RYhsekEpOIJdiPCG8YdchPPIpc+ivW0a3vlbmC0Qdg+qjbzHpBCdVoUNflA+o5iGOV6Fcn7JpKso/aA+waKldUjNy8PnFSpq7NFConW12gZpJaZrW+w3TVhaxidGJ3Dnx/qFummnTM0eqagjnDJrSBc7GCpq0KuPfaBFdUlO9ra/CBkmq6xVq6gneCVdbM4ltWIgHWLAxd062OsJk5agXeLFPXAhrQtU9hcRiVWA3T9mPLnHnAU1nLTaOl1VusMMJ6qdaBFVNN46qqixMBp1YTGMJIrzZynMfYhVUE8o+QoIahWtvvpHC8QSTFJvj9Yiqh3o1oIs1VYAHB++kB5+KzVkOtRA0v9vEc+O0gNAnB6mrkrCXJtrB6kmBwIVsFHehmpR3j5wFLQQfp9NYsIWRFeiHdPjEh38YVT0Ekffzd9Yn/NON4GAx8lmw8YdjoVSLE2YAWZvGKZWCYmr/ZgeTaCfbBR3+YAJ5RGqcCCTFRepj4v2fvrGpnMrzcQAce6IVVbjygFUqOc+MWAe7HcmdogxCpAcgwI/wBQILiLNePjFGoSOUYEEqfGz+65iSqxjMO6GMBUC8ToEbtmFheIKNiY+FW8QoF4tSBbz+UEmaViY9FgiPQOzdH/2Q==)
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 25, 2020, 05:22:09 PM
Stop the damn defeatism.

You're totally naive.  Yes, they can be defeated, as God wills, but not by going to vote in November and certainly not by Trump.  That's just a joke.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 25, 2020, 05:23:11 PM
Too many people here have been put to sleep by the social manipulators, believing that we have a real choice in the national elections  :jester:

Either Trump or Biden will win ... depending on what the agenda of International Jewry is for the next four years.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 25, 2020, 05:53:32 PM
You're totally naive.  Yes, they can be defeated, as God wills, but not by going to vote in November and certainly not by Trump.  That's just a joke.

Ladislaus bringing the thunder!

I also want to clarify that I'm not saying you can't vote without sinning. If you can do it without losing your peace in God and piece of mind, go ahead. I just can't stand any more of their garbage... Republi-con or Demon-crat.

Until I see some sign of real remorse for their shameful public lives, none of them ought to be defended or excused.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Cera on August 25, 2020, 06:40:26 PM
Cera, this is not sophism, nor technicalities.  It's an attempt to understand the CATHOLIC principles behind voting for bad candidates, like the pro-sodomite Trump.  We're trying to inform our consciences and do what pleases God.
Lad, I wasn't referring to you. I see that you are really approaching this as a Catholic. It was someone else.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: jtucker on August 25, 2020, 07:07:15 PM
I’ve not posted anything here but do enjoy the candor and men of Faith, Thee Faith!
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: maccabeansoft on August 25, 2020, 07:53:37 PM
And if you do distinguish between democans and republicrats, I feel even sorrier for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgGnBCDfCLM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgGnBCDfCLM)

If no one votes for Trump, we have Biden. Trump is the lesser evil because he doesn't support the Equality Act which democrats have been trying to push for a while, the bill passed the house in 2019 and is currently sitting in the senate. Do all of you realize if Biden signs that bill that it would amend the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to prohibit discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and even gender identity? If that happens on the federal level, you can kiss religious freedom goodbye.

Even the LGBTQ People know this, this is why they want Biden:

https://www.hrc.org/news/1-year-ago-trump-opposes-the-equality-act (https://www.hrc.org/news/1-year-ago-trump-opposes-the-equality-act)

To Sean: since you linked to Judge Napolitano, how do you explain this then?  :fryingpan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXTQBt0REQQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXTQBt0REQQ)

And this?

https://archive.is/20130123231702/http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/05/09/should-states-be-the-ultimate-deciders-of-the-legality-of-same-sex-marriage/ (https://archive.is/20130123231702/http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/05/09/should-states-be-the-ultimate-deciders-of-the-legality-of-same-sex-marriage/)
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Donan on August 25, 2020, 08:20:13 PM
I think the whole system is a ruse of Freemasonry. All the world’s a stage - William Shakespeare

https://youtu.be/B25D1ISnCMM (https://youtu.be/B25D1ISnCMM)


https://youtu.be/vu-36LG1ojY (https://youtu.be/vu-36LG1ojY)
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 25, 2020, 08:39:07 PM
Newsflash:  You are a Ninevite, not Jonah.  All of us American Ninevites have to do penance.
.
Agree, but that doesn't mean that America has to turn fully commie before it's rebooted.
.

You've not seen one glimpse of good?  Is that the extent of your despair?  Or do you just listen to the mainstream media?

If we explore the event a little further, it wasn't until the king also did penance and put out the order for all to do likewise. God was making the point as he did many other times that the blessings or the curses of a people where called down by the actions of their kings. Are we so sure today is much different? If it isn't, Trump's mockery of true religion will only call down additional curses, much the same as any Dem. Trump needs to be shouted down, not coddled.

We are well beyond Communism. Communism was simply window dressing for people who thought economics must be the prime mover of mankind. We are firmly in the mouth of the spirit of antichrist. The flesh is being stripped right off our bones.

Again I'm not despairing, but I'm not putting any faith in these God-forsaken modes of political control.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: donkath on August 25, 2020, 09:24:33 PM
Quote

Contrary to Croixalist's defeatist, doom-and-gloom despair, the Chastisement while inevitable, can be mitigated.  That's why so many of the prophecies seem to paint slightly different pictures of the same time period.  Because prayer and sacrifice works wonders; because, just like Ninevah repented and was spared, so too, can our nation (and even Europe) be spared at this late hour.  As Abraham asked God to spare Sodom if 10 just men could be found, so too, can our country be spared if just the few of us on this site do our best to please God.  Is this not possible?  Surely it is!
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Maybe it's too late for God to fully spare America, for her many sins.  But we may well be able to change course a bit.  God's mercy is limitless and the future is not set!

My logic goes against this hope. But hope is a supernatural virtue, so thank you.

__________________________


Pax is dead right about this.  Or Lady only warns s as to what is inevitable if we do not pray.  Her messages are never defeatist.  Look how God would have disowned the Israelites (like a prophecy) until Moses begged Him to hold back His Hand.
It is like Our Lady telling Lucy about her friend in Purgatory - it was for a purpose - that Lucy could pray for her friend.  If it was set in concrete why tell Lucy anything?   Our Lady is our Hope full stop.  She is our Hope as long as we are doing everything possible ourselves.  She is not there for us to hide behind her skirts.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Donan on August 25, 2020, 09:37:48 PM
Trump controlled by Zionists

https://youtu.be/B25D1ISnCMM (https://youtu.be/B25D1ISnCMM)



Biden controlled by Zionists

https://youtu.be/1vDx-5b7T8M (https://youtu.be/1vDx-5b7T8M)


What a terrible situation we’re all in. Pray the rosary. 
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 25, 2020, 09:53:39 PM
Quote
If we explore the event a little further, it wasn't until the king also did penance and put out the order for all to do likewise. God was making the point as he did many other times that the blessings or the curses of a people where called down by the actions of their kings. Are we so sure today is much different?
I agree it has this meaning.  Rulers are important.  But it also has other meanings too, as in, penance done by non-leaders can still help a country.  The story of Abraham pleading for mercy on Sodom "if he could find 10 just men" is a story where God would spare a country, apart from the actions of a leader.  So Scripture teaches that mercy can happen through and in spite of leaders.
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Quote
If it isn't, Trump's mockery of true religion will only call down additional curses, much the same as any Dem. Trump needs to be shouted down, not coddled.
Trump is no saint, as you repeatedly harp.  But you act like he's as bad as Obama; that's just not true.  Trump is wholeheartedly pro-life in his "leadership" capacity (his personal views are irrelevant).  Trump has also declared (at least twice) of a national day of prayer (which Obama never did).  
.

Quote
We are well beyond Communism. Communism was simply window dressing for people who thought economics must be the prime mover of mankind. We are firmly in the mouth of the spirit of antichrist. The flesh is being stripped right off our bones.
Communism; anti-christ.  Same difference.  Both are anti-god.  The former is a mode of govt; the latter a mode of religion.
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Quote
Again I'm not despairing, but I'm not putting any faith in these God-forsaken modes of political control.

No one's putting faith in anyone except God and His heavenly armies.  But we also can't ignore temporal politics and act like it doesn't affect us.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 25, 2020, 10:35:41 PM
I agree it has this meaning.  Rulers are important.  But it also has other meanings too, as in, penance done by non-leaders can still help a country.  The story of Abraham pleading for mercy on Sodom "if he could find 10 just men" is a story where God would spare a country, apart from the actions of a leader.  So Scripture teaches that mercy can happen through and in spite of leaders.
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Trump is no saint, as you repeatedly harp.  But you act like he's as bad as Obama; that's just not true.  Trump is wholeheartedly pro-life in his "leadership" capacity (his personal views are irrelevant).  Trump has also declared (at least twice) of a national day of prayer (which Obama never did).  
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Communism; anti-christ.  Same difference.  Both are anti-god.  The former is a mode of govt; the latter a mode of religion.
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No one's putting faith in anyone except God and His heavenly armies.  But we also can't ignore temporal politics and act like it doesn't affect us.

We're not talking about sparing a country, that was in regards to a city. When David sinned, everyone had to pay for it and the destruction was only mitigated after he repented. It can and certainly does help if more people do penance, but the point is if the ruler remains unbowed and carries on as if God doesn't exist, whether or not there is someone even worse out there than he is, unless he repents he will share their fate and call down evil upon the people under his care.

He's as bad as Obama in that he has never and never will (barring a miracle) make a decision based on Catholic principles. It's not that Biden or the Clintons, or the Obamas aren't worse than Trump on a personal level, but he isn't any better in the most important aspect.

Antichrist is both government and religion. It seeks to dethrone Christ in every sector. You have been conditioned to think of Communism in a modern sense: as an outgrowth of modern philosophy, economics and politics. It isn't. It was merely a way to disguise the evil spirit as something resembling hope for an unsuspecting, unprepared and apostate world. The novelty has certainly worn off from its heyday as the main boogeyman, but it has molted enough times so as not to be as easily identified and therefore resisted.

Who says to ignore them? Condemn them because of their actions. Know full well who you are voting for. But please, don't try to push Biden's sins on me when I don't even vote for him, and you can barely tolerate being reminded of Trump's obvious problems when you actually vote for him.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: poche on August 25, 2020, 11:26:28 PM
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/trump-my-great-honor-to-be-called-the-the-most-pro-gay-president-in-american-history (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/trump-my-great-honor-to-be-called-the-the-most-pro-gay-president-in-american-history)


Trump: ‘My great honor’ to be called the ‘the most pro-gay president in American history’
President Trump has given it a pro-LGBT ad from the Log Cabin Republicans his personal stamp of approval.
Thu Aug 20, 2020 - 4:33 pm EST

  • (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/trump-my-great-honor-to-be-called-the-the-most-pro-gay-president-in-american-history#)
  • (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/trump-my-great-honor-to-be-called-the-the-most-pro-gay-president-in-american-history#)


(https://assets.lifesitenews.com/images/made/images/remote/https_www.lifesitenews.com/images/local/grenell_and_trump_480_296_75_c1.jpg)Richard Grenell and President TrumpRichardGrenell | Twitter
(https://assets.lifesitenews.com/images/made/images/remote/https_www.lifesitenews.com/images/local/Doug_Mainwaring_Photo_1_70_70_75gray_s_c1.jpg)By Doug Mainwaring
FOLLOW DOUG (https://www.lifesitenews.com/ajax/author-profile/doug-mainwaring)
 

PETITION: Tell Trump Christians can’t accept SCOTUS ruling imposing LGBT ideology! Sign the petition here. (https://lifepetitions.com/petition/tell-trump-christians-can-t-accept-scotus-ruling-imposing-lgbt-ideology)
ANALYSIS
WASHINGTON, D.C., August 20, 2020 (LifeSiteNews (http://www.lifesitenews.com/)) – President Donald Trump has embraced the message that he is “the most pro-gay president in American history,” after his former acting Director of National Intelligence (DNI) and Ambassador to Germany, self-identified homosexual Richard Grenell, made the claim in a viral new video ad (https://twitter.com/LogCabinGOP/status/1296039209891819520).

Moreover, Grenell has just been tapped by the Republican National Committee (RNC) to serve as a senior adviser focused on outreach to LGBT voters, according to a Fox News report (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ric-grenell-joins-rnc-lgbt-voter-outreach).  
“My great honor!!!” exclaimed the President, reweeting Grenell’s declaration that “President Trump is the most pro-gay president in American history.”

Views of the video – which had already quickly gone viral – accelerated, topping 4 million in less than 30 hours and still going strong.  
Initially it was unclear if the ad, sponsored by the pro-LGBT Log Cabin Republicans, had been approved by the Trump campaign. But now the president himself has given it his personal stamp of approval.
Trump’s very public affirmation of Grenell’s message combined with the RNC’s official creation of an outreach aimed at LGBT voters spearheaded by Grenell creates a conundrum for many conservative religious voters. Such voters have wholeheartedly praised the president for his many actions to protect the life of the unborn and defend religious liberty, but they reject the normalization of homosexuality in American culture.  
The progressive LGBT political machine, which previously has been a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Democratic Party, has, along with the abortion industry, proven to be the greatest threat to religious liberty this nation has known in recent decades.  
Wedding cake bakers (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/baker-says-hed-rather-go-to-jail-after-judge-orders-him-to-bake-cakes-for-g), photographers (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/photographers-guilty-of-discrimination-for-refusing-to-shoot-same-sex-weddi), florists (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/elderly-christian-florist-faces-thousands-in-fines-for-refusing-to-provide), and many others can attest to that.
The presence of LGBT political heft within the Republican Party may lead to a weakening (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/conservatives-worry-about-trump-caving-to-lbgt-pressure-on-religious-libert) of religious liberty while further normalizing homosexuality, same-sex marriage, and transgenderism – a direct affront to Christianity and other religions.      
Grenell: ‘I can prove it’  
“President Trump is the most pro-gay president in American history,” said Grenell at the outset of his video ad.
“I can prove it,” he added. Grenell then goes on to list how Trump is the “strongest ally that gay Americans have ever had in the White House,” substantiating, in effect, that Trump policy when it comes to marriage and sexuality differs from that of Christianity.
In the ad, Grenell slams Democrat presidential candidate Joe Biden’s 40-year track record on gay issues while touting Trump’s record, both official and implied.  
“President Trump has done more to advance the rights of gays and lesbians in three years than Joe Biden did in 40-plus years in Washington,” Grenell said.  
“I know firsthand that President Trump is the strongest ally that gay Americans have ever had in the White House,” the former head cabinet member said.  
“Donald Trump is the first president in American history to be pro-gay marriage from his first day in office,” Grenell declared. “President Trump knew I was gay when he appointed me to one of the most prestigious and powerful ambassadorships in the world.”
Grenell is a self-proclaimed conservative, Christian, pro-life, gay man who has often been the target of harsh criticism from LGBT commentators and mainstream media because of his beliefs. He has also proved to be one of President Trump’s most potent (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/richard-grenell-delivers-satchel-of-documents-to-doj-that-shatter-schiff-collusion-claims-report), trusted allies. Progressives generally dislike him and conservatives generally admire him.
Log Cabin Republicans say (http://www.logcabin.org/about-us/)s its purpose is to “to make the Republican Party more inclusive, particularly on LGBT issues,” which conservatives generally take to mean diluting and eventually eliminating the GOP’s traditional conservative stances on marriage, homosexuality, and transgender ideology. As such, the group is more aptly described as “Libertarian” rather than “Conservative.”
The organization challenged the military’s “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy against open homosexuality in the military and lobbied Republican lawmakers to vote to repeal the policy. It also welcomed the Supreme Court’s 2015 Obergefell v. Hodges decision instituting same-sex “marriage” across the United States.
In the just-released video, Grenell aligns himself with Log Cabin’s views, blasting Biden, who as a U.S. Senator supported “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” and the “Defense of Marriage Act.” Biden was also “against marriage equality.”
President Trump had previously indicated that he is “fine (https://www.cnn.com/2016/11/14/politics/trump-gay-marriage-abortion-supreme-court/index.html)” with the Supreme Court’s opinion legalizing same-sex “marriage,” calling the matter “settled.”
Trump advisory board member Steve Mosher, an acclaimed author, speaker, and founder and head of the Population Research Institute (https://www.pop.org/), told LifeSiteNews that, overall, Trump is taking bold stands on the culture wars front.  
“On the culture wars front, Trump has probably done more than any president since Calvin Coolidge,” he said.
“He has opposed abortion on demand more openly and consistently than any prior president. And then there are the sheer number of judges, which eclipses the record of any prior president in a single term,” Mosher continued in a statement to LifeSiteNews.
“On the transgender front, since April 12, 2019, transgenders are not allowed to serve or enlist in the United States military. As far as the rest of the almost infinite number of aberrations found in our sex-crazed society, most cannot be solved by policies or presidents,” Mosher observed.
“So the glass is pretty full, in my view,” he added. “We must not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.”
Despite Grenell’s claims that Trump is more pro-gay than Biden, the Democrats’ 2020 platform (https://www.demconvention.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020-07-31-Democratic-Party-Platform-For-Distribution.pdf)promises, among other things, to enact the far-left so-called Equality Act; guarantee boys can enter girls’ bathrooms and vice versa; and “ban harmful ‘conversion therapy’ practices.” It says “medically accurate, LGBTQ+ inclusive, age-appropriate sex education” is “essential” and boasts that Democrats “will work to ensure LGBTQ+ people are not discriminated against when seeking to adopt or foster children.”
Full transcript of the Grenell/Log Cabin Republicans video:

If you think that Donald Trump is the most pro-gay president then wait for Joe Biden. I think he will be a lot worse.  
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Cera on August 26, 2020, 03:28:11 PM
We are well beyond Communism.
No. We haven't had our "killing fields" yet.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Miseremini on August 26, 2020, 03:55:53 PM
Last week, somewhere, I read that Trump said, "They don't hate me, they hate you, and I'm just in the way."
I think that really sums it up.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 26, 2020, 04:12:38 PM

Quote
but the point is if the ruler remains unbowed and carries on as if God doesn't exist, whether or not there is someone even worse out there than he is, unless he repents he will share their fate and call down evil upon the people under his care.

What you say is true, to a certain extent, but the story of Abraham/Sodom rebuts your logic, overall.  You say that prayers/penances only call down God's mercy on cities, but will not help countries.  Makes no sense.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 26, 2020, 05:10:35 PM
What you say is true, to a certain extent, but the story of Abraham/Sodom rebuts your logic, overall.  You say that prayers/penances only call down God's mercy on cities, but will not help countries.  Makes no sense.

Makes plenty of sense. Sodom wasn't saved. God calls his people out of Babylon. Now the entire country is not likely to be destroyed but severely chastised. Cities are a microcosm of course, ultimately prefiguring the City of Man at the end of time, but a miracle of a magnitude unknown would have to occur to make this country repent like Nineveh. Of course we can all pray for that, but in the meantime don't bother with the perpetual carrot-on-a-stick meaningless posturing that all politicians take part in.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Yeti on August 26, 2020, 05:43:08 PM
Those of you against voting for Trump, maybe you didn't hear about this, but back in May the communists started closing down all the large meat plants in this country. One after another they started closing them down, and within days the meat started disappearing off the shelves in supermarkets all over this country. And they kept shutting down more and more meat plants. But you know what happened? President Trump used some sort of wartime emergency power as president to open the meat plants back up (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/meat-plants-open-defense-production-act-trump-executive-order-coronavirus/) and stave off mass starvation in this country. The article I linked says the major food companies were going to reduce the country's food production by 80% (and note the word "food", not "meat", which means they were planning to cut ALL FOOD PRODUCTION by 80%).
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I am still aghast at how close our country came to the edge of the abyss, from which Trump pulled us back. Are you non-voting types 100% sure Biden would do the same thing? Do you want food on your table? Then VOTE FOR TRUMP!!!!
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 26, 2020, 06:35:18 PM

Quote
Sodom wasn't saved. 
Only Because there weren’t 10 just men found in Sodom, not because the ruler was bad, nor because God didn’t offer mercy, which He did...and He’ll offer mercy to our country too, if enough of us live our lives aspiring for sanctity.  
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You can argue there aren’t enough just men in America to warrant mercy, but you don’t know that for sure.   
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 26, 2020, 06:52:51 PM
Only Because there weren’t 10 just men found in Sodom, not because the ruler was bad, nor because God didn’t offer mercy, which He did...and He’ll offer mercy to our country too, if enough of us live our lives aspiring for sanctity.  
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You can argue there aren’t enough just men in America to warrant mercy, but you don’t know that for sure.  

An entire country isn't the best correlation to a single city. We might have quite a few Sodoms out here, but the country as a whole won't be entirely wiped from the map. Nineveh would be the model we're looking for where the king and the people repented and the city was saved. But it must be both. And the sheer magnitude of what would need to be seen as a whole is far beyond what any single movement could possibly achieve. Without a converted leader, this country will not change. There must something to resist the lawlessness, with the proper authority and power to do so. Once again, it's not enough to put in a little speech here and there and puff up his desk with signed papers that have about as much force and staying power as a sticky note.

Biden might be one sick perverted weirdo, but let's keep in mind how long Trump knew Epstein and that he knew he liked young girls. Why does this feel like I'm talking to codependent victims who have no ability to properly assign blame to their abuser? The answer is looking at you straight in the face: this is a satanic progressive primary dressed up as a two-party election.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 26, 2020, 09:31:17 PM

Quote
Nineveh would be the model we're looking for where the king and the people repented and the city was saved. But it must be both.

Scripture supports both the 'leader-repents-for-their-country' model and the 'just-men-obtain-mercy' model.
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Judge me, O God, and distinguish my cause from the nation that is not holy: deliver me from the unjust and deceitful man.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 26, 2020, 11:27:37 PM
So in theory Sodom could have been saved, but the requirements weren't met. The people weren't preached to either; the nature of their sin seemed to seal their fate. While we as Catholics might be able to get out from under what is rolling down the pike for the USA, it won't be for supporting Trump and his token opposition. Even if we factor in a miracle as great as say, the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart, how would repulsive little non-Catholics or disgusting apostate Catholics have any place in it? And how would a guy like Trump ever convert when Catholics pull all their punches when it comes to him? Let me also remind you he invited Bruce Jenner to use the women's room in any of his buildings in the run-up to the 2016 election.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 27, 2020, 03:20:40 AM
I’m basically giving up on the world.  When even Traditional Catholics are duped into believing that the Jews do not control the Presidency and most of Congress, there’s no hope left outside God’s direct intervention.

And if one more Trad uses the term lesser evil, my head is going to explode.

You guys are asleep at the switch and being played for fools.  It’s downright embarrassing.

I’m not voting at all in November, not playing along with the charade that our votes mean a damn thing in this Ziocracy.

Even Bishop Williamson has fallen for this crap, spending too much time with Brit socialites.  There was actually some truth in Pfeiffer’s otherwise-unhinged excoriation of +Williamson ... who, among other things, continues to harbor a homosexual offender.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 27, 2020, 10:34:36 AM
Hey Lad, don't give up man.  It's always darkest right before dawn, as they say.  God is in control and He's allowing all this chaos for the good of the highest number of souls possible.  The game-changer in all of this is when the Church gets back on Her feet.  I know a guy that was good friends with a holy Trad priest, who died a few years ago.  When Fr was dying, he told this guy that the Church would come back in his lifetime.  The guy is currently in his 70s.  ...Prophecies say that the Church's resurrection will happen so suddenly as to leave people speechless. 
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: XavierSem on August 27, 2020, 11:24:38 AM
Sean Johnson, it's a mortal sin to vote for Biden. 

Re-electing President Trump is at least morally permissible under double effect. A case could be made that it is morally obligatory to vote for President Trump, in order to get more of the 200+ judges on the federal courts (who are the ones who are going to rule on sodomy-related issues anyway, not the President), and reach the critical mass necessary to overturn Roe v Wade. It's not possible to do everything at once, but the pro-life judges will generally be pro-family, pro-natural marriage as well. 4 more years and 200 more federal judges, with possibly 2 or even 3 new Supreme Court Judges chosen by the next President, will have a huge moral impact on America's future.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 27, 2020, 12:35:13 PM
A case could be made that it is morally obligatory to vote for President Trump ...

No, it can't.  As even the SSPX article concedes, all theologians agree that one is never obligated to vote for a positively defective canddiate.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Cera on August 27, 2020, 01:58:19 PM
Sean Johnson, it's a mortal sin to vote for Biden.

Sean is sitting out the election, so he's not voting for Biden.
Title: Liberalism is a greater sin.
Post by: Geremia on August 27, 2020, 02:32:31 PM
Sodomy is a moral evil. Atheism/Liberalism (unbelief) is a greater sin.
Trump supports churches.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Geremia on August 27, 2020, 02:39:53 PM
summarizes this thread:
(http://images.memes.com/meme/873598) (https://www.rooshvforum.com/threads/memes-and-gifs-that-will-instantly-trigger-leftists.26857/#post-937401)
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 27, 2020, 03:22:40 PM
summarizes this thread:
(http://images.memes.com/meme/873598) (https://www.rooshvforum.com/threads/memes-and-gifs-that-will-instantly-trigger-leftists.26857/#post-937401)

With vulgarity like that, how could God possibly resist?

Neither one will get rid of abortion, both will press for LGBT, both wouldn't dare go up against Israel or even reduce the vast amounts of aid it receives from this country, one will support big businesses that will enforce satanic progressivism, one will support big government to enforce satanic progressivism. One will encourage BLM & Antifa, the other will let the conflict play itself out. Either one could care less about the Catholic faith if it weren't for a sense of lip service only.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 27, 2020, 04:12:06 PM
I’m basically giving up on the world.  When even Traditional Catholics are duped into believing that the Jews do not control the Presidency and most of Congress, there’s no hope left outside God’s direct intervention.

And if one more Trad uses the term lesser evil, my head is going to explode.

You guys are asleep at the switch and being played for fools.  It’s downright embarrassing.

I’m not voting at all in November, not playing along with the charade that our votes mean a damn thing in this Ziocracy.

Even Bishop Williamson has fallen for this crap, spending too much time with Brit socialites.  There was actually some truth in Pfeiffer’s otherwise-unhinged excoriation of +Williamson ... who, among other things, continues to harbor a homosexual offender.
So you know more than +Williamson and +Vigano.

You and the rest of  the do-nothing trolls sit this one out.

So IF sleepy joe and the commies take over and turn this country into a complete third world sh*t hole, and subject us to the globalist elitists serfdom,I don't want to hear crap out of you people.

You have no clue the damage the commie-dems have in store for us. I have seen it first hand here in NY.

Tell you what, if the biggest faggot in the world was running against Deblasio,Cuomo or schumer, I would pull the lever for the queer six days a week and twice on sunday at this point.That's how bad I want these people gone. they have created a complete disaster and living hell  out of NYC and the rest of the state.Especially Deblasio, he needs to be pulled, stretched, disemboweled  and quartered in the middle of Times Square putting each body part to the farthest four corners of the state while his head on a spike on the GW Bridge to set an example to the next wanna be commie-murder who would even think of pulling the garbage that he has wrought upon the good people in this once great city of this state.  He has put my very family in danger.HE HAS GOT TO GO.

Like Biden,Harris, Pelosi, Cuomo and every other dem-commie faggot trying to destroy this country.
I don't care what it takes.

Now you bastards know where I stand.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 27, 2020, 04:13:38 PM
So you know more than +Williamson and +Vigano.

On this particular issue, yes, yes I do.  I bet if I called +Williamson out on the fact that Trump is owned (and controlled by the Jews) and that only those get elected whom the Jews control, he'd think about it for a second and agree.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 27, 2020, 04:15:26 PM
You and the rest of  the do-nothing trolls sit this one out.

Yep, I plan on it.  Or I might go and vote for Pat Buchanan (while voting for various local issues and offices).  And by going to the polls in November, you too will "do nothing" ... only difference is that I won't have to sully my conscience by pulling the lever and making a symbolic vote for a degenerate like Donald Trump.

On top of that, especially in New York, your vote will mean absolutely nothing as that state will inevitably go Blue.  So the only thing you're doing is polluting your conscience, such as it is.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 27, 2020, 04:20:24 PM
...

So IF sleepy joe and the commies take over and turn this country into a complete third world sh*t hole, and subject us to the globalist elitists serfdom,I don't want to hear crap out of you people.
...
Now you bastards know where I stand.

If the Jews want Pedo Joe to be the face of the Presidency (while pulling his strings the entire time), then Joe will get "elected" (aka appointed).  If they want 4 more years of Trump, then that's what our Jewish masters will give us.  
Like they'd ever actually let us decide  :jester:

As if we didn't know where you stood before  :laugh1:.

Why don't you move and get out of NY if you hate it that bad?  NY will never go conservative ... until God wipes most of it out in the Three Days of Darkness.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 27, 2020, 04:23:44 PM
I actually believe we'll get 4 more years of Trump.  If we think the rioting is bad now, just wait until Trump gets elected.  They'll probably stretch out the election results due to the mail-in voting to build up the tension (it'll take longer to count those).  And then if Trump gets elected, the country could very well explode into a full-blown civil war ... which might be exactly what they want at this point.

Republicans/conservatives tend not to riot and loot, so if Joe wins, things would actually calm down.  I don't believe that they want that.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Geremia on August 27, 2020, 08:18:35 PM
With vulgarity like that, how could God possibly resist?
Yes, sodomy is vulgar.
I interpret that meme in a Machiavellian sense: keep your enemies closer.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 27, 2020, 08:25:44 PM
Yes, sodomy is vulgar.
I interpret that meme in a Machiavellian sense: keep your enemies closer.

Now, why would you think God works through Machiavellian principles? Why would he allow an unrepentant scumbag like Trump, objectively in the state of mortal sin, to lead anything for his Church? This is a massive failure of imagination in my opinion. Most folks seem unable or unwilling to see how God works beyond (and above) the ways of a mafia thug.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Geremia on August 27, 2020, 08:32:47 PM
Now, why would you think God works through Machiavellian principles?
God's omnipotent. He can use and has frequently throughout history used evil instruments for a good end.

Why would he allow an unrepentant scumbag like Trump, objectively in the state of mortal sin, to lead anything for his Church?
What does his state of grace (or lack thereof) have to do with his policies?
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 27, 2020, 08:47:32 PM
God's omnipotent. He can use and has frequently throughout history used evil instruments for a good end.
What does his state of grace (or lack thereof) have to do with his policies?

The only way an evil instrument is used for good is to act as a scourge and a test for holy individuals or a disobedient people. Like St. Paul he could convert, but it would be very unwise to send him to St. Peter before he had the change of heart. As it is, Trump has had four years. No scales have fallen from his eyes.

For one thing, if he were in a state of grace there wouldn't be anything remotely supporting Israel, LGBT, Microsoft, Amazon, Google, Apple, etc. But even the "good" policies are designed to be half-measures and ineffective token resistance. It's been the same Republican line for a long time now. I'm sick of it. A cute little sticky note is easily thrown away after 4 or 8 years. For someone like Trump who is known to change his mind for the sake of his own popularity, that means it's all likely to skew against what the world does not like- i.e., Catholicism. He has no foundation and he will not be able to fight for what is truly right when put to the test.

What does the state of grace have to do with it?

Are you kidding me?!
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 27, 2020, 09:25:05 PM
Pardon the language in spots, they all come from his mouth. I think you need to be reminded how much of a liar he is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YhpfohoY-w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YhpfohoY-w)
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Viva Cristo Rey on August 27, 2020, 09:56:18 PM
Why so many queer American ambassadors?
Pro choice republicans and pro gay republicans are pseudo conservatives.  They have been in Republican Party for long time.  Long before Trump.   A true conservative is pro life and pro marriage  man and woman. 

What we are up against is atheist devil worshipping communist democrats vs  One nation under God. 

I don’t like either party but I’m voting for Trump because we can’t give in to communism.  He isn’t perfect but he does love God and country.  






Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 27, 2020, 10:02:10 PM
[Trump] isn’t perfect ... 

That is grossly understating the problem with Trump.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: donkath on August 27, 2020, 10:18:13 PM
Quote
I’m basically giving up on the world.  When even Traditional Catholics are duped into believing that the Jews do not control the Presidency and most of Congress, there’s no hope left outside God’s direct intervention.
 (https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=57509.msg712750#msg712750)

Hey Lad, don't give up man.  It's always darkest right before dawn, as they say.  God is in control and He's allowing all this chaos for the good of the highest number of souls possible.  The game-changer in all of this is when the Church gets back on Her feet.  I know a guy that was good friends with a holy Trad priest, who died a few years ago.  When Fr was dying, he told this guy that the Church would come back in his lifetime.  The guy is currently in his 70s.  ...Prophecies say that the Church's resurrection will happen so suddenly as to leave people speechless.


Someone I know reached that level and was immediately chastised and confronted with the thought:
'So you don't think I am in control eh?  My thoughts are way above you thoughts.  I have told you all you need to know full stop!  The apostles abandoned me when I was crucified.  They all deserted me but did I leave them orphaned?

This is the test we are being deliberately put through by Almighty God Himself.  It is worth pondering the prayer giving glory  to the Father, and to the Son and to the Holy Ghost, as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be - world without end.

For some reason God is choosing to give the Pharisees enough rope to hang themselves with, and Jews in general the chance to save their souls.  
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: St Ignatius on August 27, 2020, 10:29:47 PM
I bet if I called +Williamson out on the fact that Trump is owned (and controlled by the Jews) and that only those get elected whom the Jews control, he'd think about it for a second and agree.
(http://www.relatably.com/m/img/do-it-memes/JoT9Qw.png)
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Viva Cristo Rey on August 27, 2020, 10:35:56 PM
Biden, Pelosi etc are far worse because they are Catholic.  Trump isn’t Catholic. 

If Biden wins more persecution will come. And also you go to Mass?  And yet there are many clergy and laity who are sodomites and worse within traditional circles. Many queer traditional or orthodox clergy.  





Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: donkath on August 27, 2020, 10:57:04 PM

Quote
Many queer traditional or orthodox clergy. 
Right to the very top!
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: ByzCat3000 on August 28, 2020, 12:57:58 AM
The Trump question comes down to two things, for me.

1: Obviously Trump is pretty defective, not just "not perfect."  But he presents himself as anti globalism, anti NWO.  Obviously he's not perfect at this, but does he meaningfully distinguish himself from Biden, in that regard?

2: If Trump meaningfully distinguishes himself from Biden in that regard, does that justify someone who wants to vote for him, despite his serious flaws?

I currently think the answer to both of those is yes.  However, I'm not kidding myself to think he's not infiltrated to any degree, nor do I see how I can bind anyone's consciences to vote for him.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 28, 2020, 04:05:22 AM
The Trump question comes down to two things, for me.

1: Obviously Trump is pretty defective, not just "not perfect."  But he presents himself as anti globalism, anti NWO.  Obviously he's not perfect at this, but does he meaningfully distinguish himself from Biden, in that regard?

2: If Trump meaningfully distinguishes himself from Biden in that regard, does that justify someone who wants to vote for him, despite his serious flaws?

I currently think the answer to both of those is yes.  However, I'm not kidding myself to think he's not infiltrated to any degree, nor do I see how I can bind anyone's consciences to vote for him.

Anti-globalist?


Quote
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It doesn't matter what he says. Follow the money. Follow his thousands of business connections. He won't make it tougher for those big companies that invest heavily offshore. Has he made any real effort to bring back manufacturing to this country? He knows most of us don't have in-depth knowledge about how big business works, so I suppose he can frame his reforms almost anyway he wants to. There's a lot of misdirection from what I can see.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on August 28, 2020, 05:27:43 AM
To those here who harbor such hatred for President Trump and think he is part of the conspiracy, here is a story I posted a while back:

A few years ago Father Collins told me a story about a Traditional Catholic he knew named Mr. Kearn. (Not sure of the spelling). Mr. Kearn had Parkinson’s disease and his hands shook terribly. He was in a restaurant in Las Vegas and he was trying to put his fork in his mouth, but was having trouble. A man came up to him and held his hand to steady it. That man was Donald Trump.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 28, 2020, 05:34:36 AM
To those here who harbor such hatred for President Trump and think he is part of the conspiracy, here is a story I posted a while back:

A few years ago Father Collins told me a story about a Traditional Catholic he knew named Mr. Kearn. (Not sure of the spelling). Mr. Kearn had Parkinson’s disease and his hands shook terribly. He was in a restaurant in Las Vegas and he was trying to put his fork in his mouth, but was having trouble. A man came up to him and held his hand to steady it. That man was Donald Trump.

He can't help but be part of it. You don't get to play unless you have some skin in the game. Nice story though. Mussolini might have walked an old lady across the street after he ran over and killed a young girl. Hitler might have saved kittens. But Stalin! Stalin actually banned abortions in 1933. I take great comfort knowing most of today's trad Catholic scene would vote for Stalin in an instant if he were "running" for office today.

Congratulations, you've been played.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Incredulous on August 28, 2020, 06:15:08 AM
He can't help but be part of it. You don't get to play unless you have some skin in the game. Nice story though. Mussolini might have walked an old lady across the street after he ran over and killed a young girl. Hitler might have saved kittens. But Stalin! Stalin actually banned abortions in 1933. I take great comfort knowing most of today's trad Catholic scene would vote for Stalin in an instant if he were "running" for office today.

Congratulations, you've been played.

Per St. Francis of Assisi's deathbed warning:


"Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."


Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on August 28, 2020, 06:17:38 AM
He can't help but be part of it. You don't get to play unless you have some skin in the game. Nice story though. Mussolini might have walked an old lady across the street after he ran over and killed a young girl. Hitler might have saved kittens. But Stalin! Stalin actually banned abortions in 1933. I take great comfort knowing most of today's trad Catholic scene would vote for Stalin in an instant if he were "running" for office today.

Congratulations, you've been played.
No, I don’t believe that I’ve “been played”. Actually, it’s thinking charitably about ones neighbor unless you have an abundance of evidence to the contrary. Most of your “proof” that he has “skin in the game” is based solely on your assumptions and in some cases, but not all, on rash judgments. I have one question for you: do you think Trump could pull this “canard” off if he and his whole family weren’t excellent actors? In other words, wouldn’t he and his entire family have to be great actors in order to dupe me and his other supporters?
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 28, 2020, 04:34:12 PM
Per St. Francis of Assisi's deathbed warning:


"Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."

We've got a lot of destroyers out there. Bergog Magog being the worst currently.

No, I don’t believe that I’ve “been played”. Actually, it’s thinking charitably about ones neighbor unless you have an abundance of evidence to the contrary. Most of your “proof” that he has “skin in the game” is based solely on your assumptions and in some cases, but not all, on rash judgments. I have one question for you: do you think Trump could pull this “canard” off if he and his whole family weren’t excellent actors? In other words, wouldn’t he and his entire family have to be great actors in order to dupe me and his other supporters?

Trump is a notorious public sinner, has been for most of his life. That should serve as evidence. I don't think you have to be a great actor necessarily, though of course it does help having a certain amount of charisma which he does have. All you have to be is a lifelong liar with a conscience so worn down as to be virtually non-existent, no access to the sacraments and an all consuming desire to be as worldly successful as possible.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 28, 2020, 04:38:45 PM
He can't help but be part of it. You don't get to play unless you have some skin in the game. Nice story though. Mussolini might have walked an old lady across the street after he ran over and killed a young girl. Hitler might have saved kittens. But Stalin! Stalin actually banned abortions in 1933. I take great comfort knowing most of today's trad Catholic scene would vote for Stalin in an instant if he were "running" for office today.

Congratulations, you've been played.

Right, a single virtuous act by itself doesn't amount to much.  He's not pure evil after all.  Heck, even Satan isn't pure evil, or he wouldn't exist.  And nobody's saying that Trump is Satan.  Even serial killers were often kind in their everyday lives.  That's doesn't make them upright men.  I'm sure that Barrack Obama or Joe Biden occasionally performed some acts of kindness for people, but I wouldn't vote for them either.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 28, 2020, 05:26:14 PM
Right, a single virtuous act by itself doesn't amount to much.  He's not pure evil after all.  Heck, even Satan isn't pure evil, or he wouldn't exist.  And nobody's saying that Trump is Satan.  Even serial killers were often kind in their everyday lives.  That's doesn't make them upright men.  I'm sure that Barrack Obama or Joe Biden occasionally performed some acts of kindness for people, but I wouldn't vote for them either.

I have to agree! The multiple crises this country is facing is a direct result of the sins it has put into practice. There is debt so gigantic that one would expect only a dedicated Catholic to have the slightest chance of navigating through the mire and actually turning things around. Because we are only getting shades of terrible and not-as-terrible, each successive President stamps his unique combination of antichrist spirit onto this country so that it's almost impossible to tell where to start to undo the knot. Somebody needs to take a flaming sword to it!

Supernatural graces are absolutely needed, and Trump doesn't have any. He didn't convert in the past 4 years, I don't see any reason why anyone should expect him to figure it out.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Clemens Maria on August 28, 2020, 05:33:04 PM
I never would have guessed that trads would fall into Trump Derangement Syndrome.  Serial killer?  Really?  Unbelievable!
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on August 28, 2020, 05:39:46 PM
We've got a lot of destroyers out there. Bergog Magog being the worst currently.

Trump is a notorious public sinner, has been for most of his life. That should serve as evidence. I don't think you have to be a great actor necessarily, though of course it does help having a certain amount of charisma which he does have. All you have to be is a lifelong liar with a conscience so worn down as to be virtually non-existent, no access to the sacraments and an all consuming desire to be as worldly successful as possible.


Well it’s obvious to me and many others, who *you* believe have been “duped”, that he must be putting on the performance of the century, if in fact you are correct in your assessment. Your assessment is, in reality, no more or less than a gut instinct, so frankly I don’t blame you for following your conscience. Remember, if I’m wrong about Trump, you and I are going to have a lot more to worry about than this debate.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Viva Cristo Rey on August 28, 2020, 05:47:52 PM
https://www.facebook.com/gaytraditionalistcatholic/ (https://www.facebook.com/gaytraditionalistcatholic/)
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 28, 2020, 06:07:53 PM

Well it’s obvious to me and many others, who *you* believe have been “duped”, that he must be putting on the performance of the century, if in fact you are correct in your assessment. Your assessment is, in reality, no more or less than a gut instinct, so frankly I don’t blame you for following your conscience. Remember, if I’m wrong about Trump, you and I are going to have a lot more to worry about than this debate.

Quo, he doesn't really act Catholic at all. What act are you falling for? At best he's like a Protestant Freemason waving his 66 books in the air, not having any knowledge of the things of God, or even the false Bible translation he holds in his hands. But he'll brag about how much he loves the Bible.

One of my personal favorites, and one that I myself really, really wanted to believe in was when he was said he would pursue prosecution for Hillary once he got elected. Wouldn't you just know it, it never happened. None of these people are devoted Catholics, therefore none of them live like they have a duty to God and to their fellow man to do what is right... by Him.

The amount and severity of corruption in our highest levels of government indicates to me that any valid conversion to the Catholic Church must be accompanied by a fearless martyr spirit. You better believe they won't have much longer to live so they might as well go out fighting. That's what I'm looking for and I won't back off until I see it!


I never would have guessed that trads would fall into Trump Derangement Syndrome.  Serial killer?  Really?  Unbelievable!

Who said serial killer?


https://www.facebook.com/gaytraditionalistcatholic/ (https://www.facebook.com/gaytraditionalistcatholic/)

No doubt they are totally gay for Trump!
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Incredulous on August 28, 2020, 10:15:26 PM
Quo, he doesn't really act Catholic at all. What act are you falling for? At best he's like a Protestant Freemason waving his 66 books in the air, not having any knowledge of the things of God, or even the false Bible translation he holds in his hands. But he'll brag about how much he loves the Bible.

One of my personal favorites, and one that I myself really, really wanted to believe in was when he was said he would pursue prosecution for Hillary once he got elected. Wouldn't you just know it, it never happened. None of these people are devoted Catholics, therefore none of them live like they have a duty to God and to their fellow man to do what is right... by Him.

The amount and severity of corruption in our highest levels of government indicates to me that any valid conversion to the Catholic Church must be accompanied by a fearless martyr spirit. You better believe they won't have much longer to live so they might as well go out fighting. That's what I'm looking for and I won't back off until I see it!


Who said serial killer?


No doubt they are totally gay for Trump!


Show me a National or World leader who is NOT under the control of judeo- masonry?

How could Zionist Israel not have Trump in their back pocket?

Trump’s whole real estate career and public image were fashioned by jewish media, lawyers and bankers.  

It is human nature to long for our natural leaders,  But they are not there
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 29, 2020, 06:17:49 AM
Very true, Incred. Tired of it!
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 29, 2020, 07:07:20 AM
On this particular issue, yes, yes I do.  I bet if I called +Williamson out on the fact that Trump is owned (and controlled by the Jews) and that only those get elected whom the Jews control, he'd think about it for a second and agree.
Yea, well, no kidding. show me a politician these days who isn't? That's like calling out the fact any politician is owned and controlled by the devil, because the matter of fact is, they all have  sold out to a certain extent. You can't even get a smidgen somewhere in the world of politics ( and everywhere else these days) without acknowledging and dealing with the jewish hegemony over our culture and need to work within it accordingly in some capacity to move forward an agenda.

The jews power and influence in Western politics, media and culture didn't come overnight, they're a damn patient and methodical people and will wait for decades if they have to, to accumulate the wealth, power and influence they eventually obtain in any culture/civilization that doesn't reject them. And to do this, you have to be as equally patient and methodical in ridding them of their influence and power and this needs to be taken in steps. And IMO, Trump is a step forward and Biden and his radical commies (jews or not) are a HUGE step backward that will take years to recover from, IF we recover at all.

I think +Williamson and +Vigano and others like them are well aware of Trump's Semitiphilia and the problems that will arise from it, but for now,they are more aware  the CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER that Biden and the commies will immediately be upon the Church and the country at large, IF they pull off (steal) this election.

That is the point here with Trump for now. Everyone knows the jew controls both sides and even THEY are at odds with each other over some issues. I think some jew-aware Catholics or people in general have this misconception that the jews move in toto a hundred percent of the time, on any and all issues and never any infighting with each other. This is simply not true as history and even the present day of israel bears this out. The only time they are all on the same page at the same time is if they feel is if someone or something is a viable threat to ALL of them. Like Hitler and the Nazi's or even the Church at times.

Which Biden or Trump are not. So there are jews on opposing sides in this election as well.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 29, 2020, 07:45:14 AM
Quote
Yep, I plan on it.  Or I might go and vote for Pat Buchanan (while voting for various local issues and offices).  And by going to the polls in November, you too will "do nothing" 
Bullsh*t. At least I'm TRYING to do something about it. Your apathy wreaks of defeatism. The irony is, YOUR vote for Buchanan will do nothing, it's meaningless other than to sully your conscience. As for me and my house, we will at least try and fend off the coming  commie coup d'etat the best way possible for now.

Quote
 by pulling the lever and making a symbolic vote for a degenerate like Donald Trump.
And by not pulling any lever, you allow and enable the party of even bigger dangerous degenerates like Biden, Pelosi, Clinton(s), Cuomo and the like to take control and systematically destroy this country and persecute Christians and anyone with a sense of normalcy, morality and patriotism within the culture. Well done. But hey, DT for fags. ::)

Quote
On top of that, especially in New York, your vote will mean absolutely nothing as that state will inevitably go Blue. 
You go ahead an assume that defeatist attitude and you will be sure to gain NOTHING. Here's the point;

There are a LOT of pissed off people in the state AND the city of NY right now, the dems and their actions regarding the virus and the riots have been an absolute disaster, NYC is LITERALLY crumbling before us and they LITERALLY want to string Deblasio and Cuomo up everywhere in the state and city. I really believe that THEY (commies-dems) OVERPLAYED their hand here and JUST ASSUMED everyone where would just do business as usual and vote far left, liberal and "democrat". I think they're ALL in for a huge surprise come November. I could be wrong, but i'm just reading the signs. one thing for sure, the only way the state WILL go blue, is, if they listen to guys like you and just assume the worst. Because then they will get it.

Quote
 So the only thing you're doing is polluting your conscience, such as it is.
Please, the last thing I need is to be is preached to by twits like you and other trolls on this thread about my "conscience".

We're in a war here ( and i mean physically), the last thing I need to here is i'm violating my conscience by trying to actually do something about it.

Quote
If the Jews want Pedo Joe to be the face of the Presidency (while pulling his strings the entire time), then Joe will get "elected" (aka appointed).  If they want 4 more years of Trump, then that's what our Jewish masters will give us.  
Like they'd ever actually let us decide  (https://www.cathinfo.com/Smileys/classic/jester.gif)
Well, you let THEM tell you what to do. I'm not playing that game. the only way ((they)) have any power, is if YOU give it to them. and you do that by hiding in your basement and just let them have their way, because, after all, ((they)) ARE our MASTERS. Some FAITH some of you catholics have. It's not  at all in GOD'S HANDS, but da jooos. ::)

Quote
Why don't you move and get out of NY if you hate it that bad?  NY will never go conservative ... until God wipes most of it out in the Three Days of Darkness.
Well, first of all, I'm not abandoning my family. and second, I believe ANY state can be turned either way, at any time. Look at all the solidly "conservative" Southern and Central states that are now becoming somewhat suspect of becoming Blue? even Texas is not a slam dunk anymore. No, there's no where to run anymore and be sure. The only sure thing to do is stand and FIGHT these commie bastards like MEN and Patriots that mad this country what it is, or once was. I'm not into this cutting and running crap. I actually do have FAITH that we can FIGHT and WIN this battle, for now at least.

As for the three days of darkness, from what I understand, it's not going to matter where you live. so, get that thought out of your head.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 29, 2020, 04:25:07 PM
Bullsh*t. At least I'm TRYING to do something about it. Your apathy wreaks of defeatism. The irony is, YOUR vote for Buchanan will do nothing, it's meaningless other than to sully your conscience. As for me and my house, we will at least try and fend off the coming  commie coup d'etat the best way possible for now.
And by not pulling any lever, you allow and enable the party of even bigger dangerous degenerates like Biden, Pelosi, Clinton(s), Cuomo and the like to take control and systematically destroy this country and persecute Christians and anyone with a sense of normalcy, morality and patriotism within the culture. Well done. But hey, DT for fags. ::)
You go ahead an assume that defeatist attitude and you will be sure to gain NOTHING. Here's the point;

There are a LOT of pissed off people in the state AND the city of NY right now, the dems and their actions regarding the virus and the riots have been an absolute disaster, NYC is LITERALLY crumbling before us and they LITERALLY want to string Deblasio and Cuomo up everywhere in the state and city. I really believe that THEY (commies-dems) OVERPLAYED their hand here and JUST ASSUMED everyone where would just do business as usual and vote far left, liberal and "democrat". I think they're ALL in for a huge surprise come November. I could be wrong, but i'm just reading the signs. one thing for sure, the only way the state WILL go blue, is, if they listen to guys like you and just assume the worst. Because then they will get it.
Please, the last thing I need is to be is preached to by twits like you and other trolls on this thread about my "conscience".

We're in a war here ( and i mean physically), the last thing I need to here is i'm violating my conscience by trying to actually do something about it.
Well, you let THEM tell you what to do. I'm not playing that game. the only way ((they)) have any power, is if YOU give it to them. and you do that by hiding in your basement and just let them have their way, because, after all, ((they)) ARE our MASTERS. Some FAITH some of you catholics have. It's not  at all in GOD'S HANDS, but da jooos. ::)
Well, first of all, I'm not abandoning my family. and second, I believe ANY state can be turned either way, at any time. Look at all the solidly "conservative" Southern and Central states that are now becoming somewhat suspect of becoming Blue? even Texas is not a slam dunk anymore. No, there's no where to run anymore and be sure. The only sure thing to do is stand and FIGHT these commie bastards like MEN and Patriots that mad this country what it is, or once was. I'm not into this cutting and running crap. I actually do have FAITH that we can FIGHT and WIN this battle, for now at least.

As for the three days of darkness, from what I understand, it's not going to matter where you live. so, get that thought out of your head.


Alaric, as evidenced by Trump's own general inaction over the course of the month's events, if the mayor of a city or a governor of a state wants to let the chaos play itself out, Trump isn't going to do anything. Your best bet is probably to stick to local elections. So let's see you get this hype about the next election for those guys... but then you could only browbeat your fellow New Yorkers into voting. Can't have it all!

It would be interesting if New York actually managed to get a Republican elected for these positions, though I believe you seriously underestimate the hatred people have for anything resembling conservative. The key word here being "resembling." If one or two were to squeeze in, their effectiveness at pushing out any true reform is going to have to be completely reliant on their fidelity to the True Faith. Otherwise, these are just more bomfogs for the Zio-Protty-Commie-Masonic-Satanic slot machine election process. I wouldn't say the powers that be don't have a preferred candidate, but as long as they have all parties sufficiently covered, they can play Punch and Judy all day long.

And you can keep your compromise-with-Satan attitude and your pressuring of Catholics to pull a lever they are not inclined to because we all have to obey the rules of the prevailing political game theory. Close my eyes and it sounds exactly like the famous Trolley Dilemma sociopath test, except you only get a faint promise you might save 5 people if you push the other person in front. So now that I can determine you feel it's acceptable for Trump's tranny normalization, you literally have no right to be upset when a satanic he/she reads to children in public libraries. You get to own that now. You also get to own a brand new Third Temple in the making! Oh no, you say? You say you don't agree with Trump on that issue? My friend, if you're going to guilt a non-voting Catholic for a positive vote for Biden, you have no excuse. You wanted it exactly this way. But no, you say "but Trump forced that us, we didn't choose it!" Well I guess you could say it's not a legitimate choice for you to make then is it? 

There's different forms of rape too, but you don't see people arguing for a less lethal rapist over a violent one. If you don't ask for Cosby, you're gonna get the Golden State Killer! You can't not be raped! Get real! At least I'd want to make my rape more survivable, more livable, more comfortable! All Cosby has to do is give you a pill to put you to sleep and it will be like it never happened. God obliges you to ask Cosby to rape you.

Can you say "false dilemma?" Say it with me!

You can chew on an old leather shoe and market it like a roast beef dinner compared to the rat dung in the gutter, but all it does is show how poor your living conditions are. Don't think for one minute that you have any right to force what is plainly an indigestible moral compromise in a famine-stricken political scene. If that's what's holding your world together, you need to step back real quick before you unravel.


Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on August 30, 2020, 06:30:24 AM
Quote
Can you say "false dilemma?" Say it with me!
There is no dilemma here for me, there is only reality. And the reality is we have only two choices for now.

A man who will lead us forward into progress, safety and wealth. Or a man who will lead us into the darkness, danger, violence,death and destruction and hand the country over to the globalists for our ultimate national demise.

The choice is simple for me, FOR NOW. I'm not getting into all the explanations and assumptions we've been over and over on this thread, it's become quite tiresome and at this point not productive anymore. Occam's razor need apply here.

I'm voting for Trump because I believe that is what's best for me, my family, the Church and the state at large.

If I'd lived in Syria and I had to choose between Assad and ISIS, the decision couldn't be more obvious at the clear and present danger to me and my family  in the present situation. Even though Assad is a "muslim", I have to support him.


And that's what we have here, Trump (Assad) is not perfect, but he's the way we HAVE to go. Because Biden (ISIS) and his party of terrorists will actively pursue our ultimate destruction. And that IS THE REALITY. I've been saying for quite some time now, WE ARE IN CIVIL WAR, whether you want to accept it or not, matters not, it's coming to your doorstep and for some in this country ( I personally know some it has ) it's already there. And just like in Syria, I don't have to wait until they have  public executions of political enemies or start beheading catholic bishops and priests to try and do something about it NOW.


This is about all I'm going to say on this from this point forward. I don't believe it's a mortal sin to vote for Trump.

Indeed, I'm about the point where I believe it's a mortal sin if you don't. ( well not really, but it's THAT important)
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on August 30, 2020, 07:00:39 AM
There is no dilemma here for me, there is only reality. And the reality is we have only two choices for now.

A man who will lead us forward into progress, safety and wealth. Or a man who will lead us into the darkness, danger, violence,death and destruction and hand the country over to the globalists for our ultimate national demise.

The choice is simple for me, FOR NOW. I'm not getting into all the explanations and assumptions we've been over and over on this thread, it's become quite tiresome and at this point not productive anymore. Occam's razor need apply here.

I'm voting for Trump because I believe that is what's best for me, my family, the Church and the state at large.

If I'd lived in Syria and I had to choose between Assad and ISIS, the decision couldn't be more obvious at the clear and present danger to me and my family  in the present situation. Even though Assad is a "muslim", I have to support him.


And that's what we have here, Trump (Assad) is not perfect, but he's the way we HAVE to go. Because Biden (ISIS) and his party of terrorists will actively pursue our ultimate destruction. And that IS THE REALITY. I've been saying for quite some time now, WE ARE IN CIVIL WAR, whether you want to accept it or not, matters not, it's coming to your doorstep and for some in this country ( I personally know some it has ) it's already there. And just like in Syria, I don't have to wait until they have  public executions of political enemies or start beheading catholic bishops and priests to try and do something about it NOW.


This is about all I'm going to say on this from this point forward. I don't believe it's a mortal sin to vote for Trump.

Indeed, I'm about the point where I believe it's a mortal sin if you don't. ( well not really, but it's THAT important)
Good post, alaric.👍 It seems that some of those who think it’s a mortal sin to vote for Trump are somewhat puritanical. I hate to say it but, they almost approach a Jansenistic mentality. For the record, I don't believe it’s a sin if you *don’t* vote for Trump if your conscience is telling you not to.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 30, 2020, 07:31:00 AM
There is no dilemma here for me, there is only reality. And the reality is we have only two choices for now.

A man who will lead us forward into progress, safety and wealth. Or a man who will lead us into the darkness, danger, violence,death and destruction and hand the country over to the globalists for our ultimate national demise.

The choice is simple for me, FOR NOW. I'm not getting into all the explanations and assumptions we've been over and over on this thread, it's become quite tiresome and at this point not productive anymore. Occam's razor need apply here.

I'm voting for Trump because I believe that is what's best for me, my family, the Church and the state at large.

If I'd lived in Syria and I had to choose between Assad and ISIS, the decision couldn't be more obvious at the clear and present danger to me and my family  in the present situation. Even though Assad is a "muslim", I have to support him.


And that's what we have here, Trump (Assad) is not perfect, but he's the way we HAVE to go. Because Biden (ISIS) and his party of terrorists will actively pursue our ultimate destruction. And that IS THE REALITY. I've been saying for quite some time now, WE ARE IN CIVIL WAR, whether you want to accept it or not, matters not, it's coming to your doorstep and for some in this country ( I personally know some it has ) it's already there. And just like in Syria, I don't have to wait until they have  public executions of political enemies or start beheading catholic bishops and priests to try and do something about it NOW.


This is about all I'm going to say on this from this point forward. I don't believe it's a mortal sin to vote for Trump.

Indeed, I'm about the point where I believe it's a mortal sin if you don't. ( well not really, but it's THAT important)

Third option: Pray that all evil players are removed from the board and start over.

Reality: You've turned Trump from merely less terrible than Biden to "a man who will lead us forward into progress, safety and wealth." This is pure propaganda. We've seen the progress and it's not towards the Church. In some ways it's worse than if we had a Democrat in office, because he has successfully associated some liberal causes firmly within the "conservative" bracket now. You've managed to turn him into the only option. If that's the case, you better be sure God is behind it. We know He's not based on Trump's own deplorable agenda played out over the course of 4 years.

As the increasing prospect of martyrdom rears its many ugly heads, we'll never be prepared if this is the stance we are accustomed to.

Good post, alaric.👍 It seems that some of those who think it’s a mortal sin to vote for Trump are somewhat puritanical. I hate to say it but, they almost approach a Jansenistic mentality. For the record, I don't believe it’s a sin if you *don’t* vote for Trump if your conscience is telling you not to.

I don't think it's a mortal sin either, but it is a waste of time and can eventually lead to sin if you become too caught up in the Trump indoctrination campaign like alaric here.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on August 30, 2020, 08:08:04 AM

I don't think it's a mortal sin either, but it is a waste of time and can eventually lead to sin if you become too caught up in the Trump indoctrination campaign like alaric here.


Good to hear, but one major point of disagreement is my belief that I don’t think it’s a waste of time. Trump, with all of his issues, *can* be the catalyst for a peaceful restoration to the founders (some obviously erroneous) principles and then a possibility for us catholics to carve out a niche to create a truly Catholic society. I know it’s seems highly unlikely, but I think it’s something both you, I and most all readers of this forum would be in favor of.  
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on August 30, 2020, 11:41:25 AM

Good to hear, but one major point of disagreement is my belief that I don’t think it’s a waste of time. Trump, with all of his issues, *can* be the catalyst for a peaceful restoration to the founders (some obviously erroneous) principles and then a possibility for us catholics to carve out a niche to create a truly Catholic society. I know it’s seems highly unlikely, but I think it’s something both you, I and most all readers of this forum would be in favor of.  

It would still take a miracle! But a miracle is a miracle. I'm certain it won't fall out like that, but I can appreciate the desire for more space to operate in. I just think that phase in this country's history has drawn to a close.

Here's to a miracle!

:incense:
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: sedevacantist3 on August 30, 2020, 04:20:04 PM

Good to hear, but one major point of disagreement is my belief that I don’t think it’s a waste of time. Trump, with all of his issues, *can* be the catalyst for a peaceful restoration to the founders (some obviously erroneous) principles and then a possibility for us catholics to carve out a niche to create a truly Catholic society. I know it’s seems highly unlikely, but I think it’s something both you, I and most all readers of this forum would be in favor of.  
Trump must  keep in line with his jewish controlers, since he is now pro vaccination  there is no point in voting , America is cooked , stick a fork into it.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Incredulous on August 30, 2020, 04:38:46 PM
Trump must  keep in line with his jewish controlers, since he is now pro vaccination  there is no point in voting , America is cooked , stick a fork into it.

Well... yes, we’re so surrounded it is comical... to the point of tears :facepalm:

But a miracle will happen at some point in time.

Our Lady Triumphs!

The jews are defeated.

We just have to pray hard for it to happen sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Clemens Maria on August 30, 2020, 06:59:59 PM
The current situation in the US could be compared to France in the early 19th century.  There’s little hope for a Catholic government but the possibility of either a militant atheist government or a government tolerant of religion (Napoleon) is still in play.  Trump is the Napoleon option.  Biden/Harris is the Revolutionary government.  If you want to take a chance on getting your family guillotined then by all means don’t vote.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Matto on August 30, 2020, 07:03:17 PM
Trump is the Napoleon option.
It would be really cool if Trump kidnapped Bergoglio and made him crown him emperor. I think I am alone on this forum in expressing the desire for Trump to declare himself dictator (even though I don't really like him).
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 30, 2020, 07:16:31 PM
Very few of us who are against voting Trump have said that it would be a sin.  I believe that one could justify it with double effect. I just believe that all candidates are controlled by the Jews and that our vote will have no bearing on whom the Jews select for the office.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: josefamenendez on August 31, 2020, 09:42:57 AM
I wonder if the jews liked "Ave Maria" sung at the White House. I bet not. Maybe Trump has some autonomy.....or at least he may be fighting back .
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 31, 2020, 11:40:24 AM
Maybe Trump has some autonomy....

Not in any matter that is important to his Jewish handlers.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Aristotl on August 31, 2020, 12:43:55 PM
The main thing to look at is the freedom to worship our Catholic Faith. There is a lesser of two evils and unless we want to put Biden /Harris in office we must vote.  I want to continue to enjoy the freedoms of this great nation. Is Trump the greatest no but he's all we have. So even on the higher level of Theology, you must vote for the lesser of two evils. Even the NO bishops are using Mystici Corporis by His Holiness Pope Pius XII to site reasons not to vote for Biden. 
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 31, 2020, 01:33:36 PM
There is a lesser of two evils ...

Not for Catholics.  "Lesser of two evils" is contrary to core Catholic principles.  Catholics think in terms of "double effect."  I'm not sure how many times i need to repeat this.  Catholics can never do evil even to prevent a much greater evil.  But Catholics may make a choice with an intended good outcome even if unintended bad outcomes might result as well ... if certain conditions apply.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Stubborn on August 31, 2020, 03:13:20 PM
Not for Catholics.  "Lesser of two evils" is contrary to core Catholic principles.  Catholics think in terms of "double effect."  I'm not sure how many times i need to repeat this.  Catholics can never do evil even to prevent a much greater evil.  But Catholics may make a choice with an intended good outcome even if unintended bad outcomes might result as well ... if certain conditions apply.
It is a basic point of the faith that we cannot promote or otherwise endorse evil in order to achieve good. I do not see where voting for Trump is endorsing evil, otoh, it is easy to see that voting for Biden is certain to promote and endorse evil.       
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on August 31, 2020, 06:07:45 PM
It is a basic point of the faith that we cannot promote or otherwise endorse evil in order to achieve good. I do not see where voting for Trump is endorsing evil, otoh, it is easy to see that voting for Biden is certain to promote and endorse evil.      

Well, when one is voting for Trump, one is voting for some evils that come along with him (that have been adequately documented on this thread).  So, for instance, one is voting for someone who condones and even glorifies sodomy.  At the same time one is voting for someone who has shown some commitment in favor of the unborn.  So there's some good, and there's some bad.

But what a Catholic voter does is to promote the good (anti-abortion) while also at the same time recognizing that there's evil that has come along with it.  So, for instance, the classic case of double effect is to perform an operation in an ektopic pregnancy to save the mother's life, knowing, however, that it will cost the life of the unborn child.  Even such an operation has to be performed very carefully so that one does not directly take the life of the unborn child, but, rather, removes the thread to the mother, without directly causing the death of the unborn child.  So the question of double effect with Trump is whether one's vote actually directly causes the evils that might be promoted by Trump during a second term.  This is where the application of double effect to voting becomes murky, and this really needs to be developed by Catholic moral theologians.  It's an extremely neglected aspect of Catholic moral theology.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Stubborn on September 01, 2020, 05:03:19 AM
Well, when one is voting for Trump, one is voting for some evils that come along with him (that have been adequately documented on this thread).  So, for instance, one is voting for someone who condones and even glorifies sodomy.  At the same time one is voting for someone who has shown some commitment in favor of the unborn.  So there's some good, and there's some bad.

But what a Catholic voter does is to promote the good (anti-abortion) while also at the same time recognizing that there's evil that has come along with it.  So, for instance, the classic case of double effect is to perform an operation in an ektopic pregnancy to save the mother's life, knowing, however, that it will cost the life of the unborn child.  Even such an operation has to be performed very carefully so that one does not directly take the life of the unborn child, but, rather, removes the thread to the mother, without directly causing the death of the unborn child.  So the question of double effect with Trump is whether one's vote actually directly causes the evils that might be promoted by Trump during a second term.  This is where the application of double effect to voting becomes murky, and this really needs to be developed by Catholic moral theologians.  It's an extremely neglected aspect of Catholic moral theology.
This is not comparing apples to apples. In the case of the ectopic pregnancy, although he is for it, Trump has not legislated abortion in such cases, and although sadly he wrongly approves of abortion in that case and some other cases, *as far as I know* he has not signed into law, nor has he made it any kind of official policy - if anything he has signed anti-abortion legislation and publicly condemns abortion over all.

I think that the same can be said for his supporting the queers, *as far as I know* he has not made any rule or law in their favor. If I am wrong, please correct me.

In short, whatever his personal beliefs are in these matters is of little importance because he's not the one who signed into law unisex bathrooms, sicko queers in the military, etc. ad nausem, on the contrary, he's the one who tried to get those laws off the books, which makes him our ally in these matters, and makes Biden our enemy. Again, correct me if I am wrong.

      

 
 
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 01, 2020, 06:11:38 AM
This is not comparing apples to apples. 

No it's not.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Aristotl on September 01, 2020, 10:58:24 AM
Not for Catholics.  "Lesser of two evils" is contrary to core Catholic principles.  Catholics think in terms of "double effect."  I'm not sure how many times i need to repeat this.  Catholics can never do evil even to prevent a much greater evil.  But Catholics may make a choice with an intended good outcome even if unintended bad outcomes might result as well ... if certain conditions apply.
I understand what you are saying. BUT CAN YOU SHOW ME WHERE YOU ARE FINDING THIS??? Prior to Pope Leo XIII, the Catholics were taught to not vote in the elections of Italy due to Socialism.  I can see your point that you speak of here. Now again Pope Leo XIII had a different view and that view was the Catholics needed to vote. Again Pope Leo said in an election with two Socialists you must vote for the lesser of two evils. Pope Pius XI scolded the Catholics in Germany for sitting out the election and said this is why Adolph Hitler was able to be placed in power. I have cited my sources previously to my points in Canon Law Study for Catholics voting. 
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Matto on September 01, 2020, 11:04:15 AM
Prior to Pope Leo XIII, the Catholics were taught to not vote in the elections of Italy due to Socialism. . . . Again Pope Leo said in an election with two Socialists you must vote for the lesser of two evils. Pope Pius XI scolded the Catholics in Germany for sitting out the election and said this is why Adolph Hitler was able to be placed in power.

Leo XIII and Pius XI, antipopes.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 01, 2020, 11:12:57 AM
I understand what you are saying. BUT CAN YOU SHOW ME WHERE YOU ARE FINDING THIS??? Prior to Pope Leo XIII, the Catholics were taught to not vote in the elections of Italy due to Socialism.  I can see your point that you speak of here. Now again Pope Leo XIII had a different view and that view was the Catholics needed to vote. Again Pope Leo said in an election with two Socialists you must vote for the lesser of two evils. Pope Pius XI scolded the Catholics in Germany for sitting out the election and said this is why Adolph Hitler was able to be placed in power. I have cited my sources previously to my points in Canon Law Study for Catholics voting.

No, the expression that's faulty is "lesser of two evils" ... that is not Catholic and is equivalent to "end justifies the means".  It's Catholic moral theology 101.  You cannot do an evil even to prevent a much greater evil.  One can vote for the less defective candidate based on double effect.  Cite Pope Leo XIII on this point instead of paraphrasing.  I've seen repeated anecdotal references but never an actual citation.  As for Pius XI, there's no reference to who the alternate candidate was.  Again, citation please.  Frankly, had I been a German, I might have voted Hitler at the time, since his platform was one of nationalism more than anything else.  Pius XI was also the man who betrayed the Cristeros.

If you want to vote for Trump, it can be done, but please use Catholic language and rephrase it as an exercise in double effect.  Constantly using the utilitarian "lesser of two evils" phrase can be pernicious.  It's the same reasoning which would have some people think it's OK to kill a couple innocent people in order to save millions.  There was a TV show some years ago in which a terrorist threatened to unleash a nuclear weapon on a city if the U.S. agent did not kill another agent (who was innocent) ... because that agent was getting too close to finding him.  So the guy did it.  Too man Catholics might start reasoning that this would be OK and start warping their Catholic sense for moral theology.  It's not any kind of dilemma.  You are not permitted to take that single innocent life even if it's to potentially save millions.  You cannot perpetrate that evil even to prevent a greater evil.  You cannot do the "lesser evil".
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 01, 2020, 11:25:28 AM
Here are some examples.  Let's say I have to drive a doctor to a remote emergency clinic in order to save someone's life.  But the doctor, while there, intends to also perform a vasectomy on another patient there.  That's very close to what voting is (driving someone to a position where they can do something).  I can drive the doctor to the clinic based on double effect, intending to save the life but not intending the vasectomy ... which would happen nevertheless as a consequence of driving him there.

So the principles of double effect must be that the good consequence must far outweigh the negative consequence.  If, however, this doctor would, in addition to saving the life, intend to perform an abortion, I cannot drive him there, since the evil of the abortion is not clearly outweighed by the saving of the other life.  Also, the evil effect must be indirectly caused by the original action, so driving him there does not directly cause the vasectomy, but leads to in indirectly.

So with Trump, one can argue that the evil of abortion far outweighs the evil of sodomy ... and it's unlikely that ANY candidate would outlaw sodomy anyway.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on September 01, 2020, 11:30:36 AM
 Pius XI was also the man who betrayed the Cristeros.
Lad, your point is well taken regarding double effect, but I would tread carefully when you attribute betrayal to Pope Piux XI. We don’t have all of the facts in the case nor do we know what his councilors, perhaps erroneously, told him. Obviously, in retrospect, his decision was a poor one, but remember that it was God’s will that it happened that way.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 01, 2020, 11:40:57 AM
Lad, your point is well taken regarding double effect, but I would tread carefully when you attribute betrayal to Pope Piux XI. We don’t have all of the facts in the case nor do we know what his councilors, perhaps erroneously, told him. Obviously, in retrospect, his decision was a poor one, but remember that it was God’s will that it happened that way.

Sure it was God's will in the end, just like the consequences of any error or sin.  So, for instance, if a man murders someone, it was God's will that the victim die that day, even if it wasn't God's will that the perpetrator commit that sin.

Pius XI, like Benedict XV before him and Pius XII after him, was a diplomat and was too ready making deals with the enemies of the Church.  Regardless of his intentions, this was an objective betrayal.  It goes without saying that only God can judge his intentions.
Quote
Ratti’s cursus honorum is marked by a high cultural level combined with a shrewd political skill. He never abandoned intransigent ecclesiology: his main aim was defending and preserving the rights and privileges of the Catholic Church, even at the cost to sign “pact(s) with the devil(s).” I think, as Kertzer demonstrates, that this primary intention of Pius XI should never be forgotten. Even if during his pontificate he had often realized and feared the incongruity of these “partnerships,” it was only at the end of his life that he definitely recognized that the costs had been, and kept on being, too high.

Benedict XV through Pius XII, unlike St. Pius X, were constantly extending olive branches to the enemies of the Church, both political and theological, and this all lead up to Vatican II.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 01, 2020, 11:45:57 AM
https://catholicism.org/valor-betrayal-cristeros.html


Quote
The story of the Cristeros, alas, is not one of victory. That does not make it less than inspiring, however, for if they finally laid down their arms, they did not really surrender to the Revolution against which they fought. Militarily they had brilliant successes, and that they could ultimately have prevailed in the field is possible. In May, 1929, it even looked likely. However, they lacked the support they deserved. This is not to speak of popular support, for theirs was already genuinely a popular rising. What was missing, except at the very beginning (and which was not of a practical nature even then) was the support of the bishops of the Church in Mexico. Missing too was the support of the Holy See, which had once thundered against the regime in Mexico City, but that was before a deal was reached with it, a deal fatal to the Cristeros. Insofar as the bishops and Holy See went the route they did, instead of supporting the Cristeros, it could be said the peasant-warriors were betrayed by the very men for whom they fought. 

Betrayed they were.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: PAT317 on September 01, 2020, 11:50:13 AM
No, the expression that's faulty is "lesser of two evils" ... that is not Catholic and is equivalent to "end justifies the means".  It's Catholic moral theology 101.  You cannot do an evil even to prevent a much greater evil.  One can vote for the less defective candidate based on double effect.  ...
... please use Catholic language and rephrase it as an exercise in double effect.  Constantly using the utilitarian "lesser of two evils" phrase can be pernicious.  It's the same reasoning which would have some people think it's OK to kill a couple innocent people in order to save millions.  There was a TV show some years ago in which a terrorist threatened to unleash a nuclear weapon on a city if the U.S. agent did not kill another agent (who was innocent) ... because that agent was getting too close to finding him.  So the guy did it.  Too many Catholics might start reasoning that this would be OK and start warping their Catholic sense for moral theology.  It's not any kind of dilemma.  You are not permitted to take that single innocent life even if it's to potentially save millions.  You cannot perpetrate that evil even to prevent a greater evil.  You cannot do the "lesser evil".
Well said. 
...Cite Pope Leo XIII on this point instead of paraphrasing.  I've seen repeated anecdotal references but never an actual citation.  As for Pius XI, there's no reference to who the alternate candidate was.  Again, citation please.  ...
I second that request.  
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on September 01, 2020, 12:28:30 PM
Sure it was God's will in the end, just like the consequences of any error or sin.  So, for instance, if a man murders someone, it was God's will that the victim die that day, even if it wasn't God's will that the perpetrator commit that sin.

Pius XI, like Benedict XV before him and Pius XII after him, was a diplomat and was too ready making deals with the enemies of the Church.  Regardless of his intentions, this was an objective betrayal.  It goes without saying that only God can judge his intentions.
Benedict XV through Pius XII, unlike St. Pius X, were constantly extending olive branches to the enemies of the Church, both political and theological, and this all lead up to Vatican II.
Fine, I agree with most of this except that the word “betrayal” has a connotation of evil intent. I think better words you could have used would be: horrible, stupid, or even incompetent. Now I will stop the derailment.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Clemens Maria on September 01, 2020, 01:08:57 PM
I agree with QvD.  The prudence of Pius XI in handling the cristeros situation can be debated.  But Catholicism, unlike Mohammedism is not a political movement.  There is no divine mandate to fight for and establish Catholic states.  Obviously Catholic government is desirable but it isn’t absolutely necessary.  If it comes at the expense of souls then its value is greatly mitigated. A pope has to weigh all these things and then decide on the best way forward.  Sometimes mistakes are made.  That doesn’t mean the pope was vicious or malicious.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 02, 2020, 12:41:03 AM
No, the expression that's faulty is "lesser of two evils" ... that is not Catholic and is equivalent to "end justifies the means".  It's Catholic moral theology 101.  You cannot do an evil even to prevent a much greater evil.  One can vote for the less defective candidate based on double effect.  Cite Pope Leo XIII on this point instead of paraphrasing.  I've seen repeated anecdotal references but never an actual citation.  As for Pius XI, there's no reference to who the alternate candidate was.  Again, citation please.  Frankly, had I been a German, I might have voted Hitler at the time, since his platform was one of nationalism more than anything else.  Pius XI was also the man who betrayed the Cristeros.

If you want to vote for Trump, it can be done, but please use Catholic language and rephrase it as an exercise in double effect.  Constantly using the utilitarian "lesser of two evils" phrase can be pernicious.  It's the same reasoning which would have some people think it's OK to kill a couple innocent people in order to save millions.  There was a TV show some years ago in which a terrorist threatened to unleash a nuclear weapon on a city if the U.S. agent did not kill another agent (who was innocent) ... because that agent was getting too close to finding him.  So the guy did it.  Too man Catholics might start reasoning that this would be OK and start warping their Catholic sense for moral theology.  It's not any kind of dilemma.  You are not permitted to take that single innocent life even if it's to potentially save millions.  You cannot perpetrate that evil even to prevent a greater evil.  You cannot do the "lesser evil".
I agree with this.  

I believe the situation with Italy wasn't socialism, but the conquest of the papal states leading the Popes to not recognize Italy.  I might be wrong about that.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 02, 2020, 06:11:52 AM
I agree with QvD.  The prudence of Pius XI in handling the cristeros situation can be debated.  But Catholicism, unlike Mohammedism is not a political movement.  There is no divine mandate to fight for and establish Catholic states.  Obviously Catholic government is desirable but it isn’t absolutely necessary.  If it comes at the expense of souls then its value is greatly mitigated. A pope has to weigh all these things and then decide on the best way forward.  Sometimes mistakes are made.  That doesn’t mean the pope was vicious or malicious.

No one is accusing him of having been malicious.  But it's quite clear that the Popes after St. Pius X were softer on Modernism, trying to make peace with the enemies of the Church, and this had devastating consequences.

Terrible mistakes were made.  And Pius XII even made terrible doctrinal mistakes, like opening the door to evolution and to natural birth control.  He also appointed all the Modernist/heretical bishops who would later bring us Vatican II.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Clemens Maria on September 02, 2020, 11:12:53 AM
No one is accusing him of having been malicious.  But it's quite clear that the Popes after St. Pius X were softer on Modernism, trying to make peace with the enemies of the Church, and this had devastating consequences.

Terrible mistakes were made.  And Pius XII even made terrible doctrinal mistakes, like opening the door to evolution and to natural birth control.  He also appointed all the Modernist/heretical bishops who would later bring us Vatican II.
Using the word “betrayed” implies malice by definition.  In the context its meaning is “to deliver to an enemy by treachery”.  QvD objected to that word and I agree with him.  Pius XI did not betray the Cristeros.  I would agree with those who argue that it probably would have worked out better if they had been permitted to fight on.  But given they didn’t have much support from the bishops, Pius XI didn’t see how the fight was going to result in anything good for souls.  Go ahead and debate that decision but don’t say that he betrayed the Cristeros.
Title: Stalin banned abortions?
Post by: Geremia on September 04, 2020, 01:58:23 PM
Stalin actually banned abortions in 1933.
source please
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: forlorn on September 04, 2020, 02:48:25 PM
He can't help but be part of it. You don't get to play unless you have some skin in the game. Nice story though. Mussolini might have walked an old lady across the street after he ran over and killed a young girl. Hitler might have saved kittens. But Stalin! Stalin actually banned abortions in 1933. I take great comfort knowing most of today's trad Catholic scene would vote for Stalin in an instant if he were "running" for office today.

Congratulations, you've been played.
If Stalin were running against Stalin-Except-In-Favour-Of-Abortions, then yes. And by not voting, all you'd achieve is helping millions of lives be slaughtered.
Title: Re: Stalin banned abortions?
Post by: Croixalist on September 04, 2020, 03:52:04 PM
source please

I misremembered, it was in 1936. Here you go:

https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/family-laws-1936#:~:text=FAMILY%20LAWS%20OF%201936%20In%201936%2C%20the%20Soviet,1936%2C%20however%2C%20the%20Central%20Executive%20Committee%20outlawed%20abortion. (https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/family-laws-1936#:~:text=FAMILY%20LAWS%20OF%201936%20In%201936%2C%20the%20Soviet,1936%2C%20however%2C%20the%20Central%20Executive%20Committee%20outlawed%20abortion.)

If Stalin were running against Stalin-Except-In-Favour-Of-Abortions, then yes. And by not voting, all you'd achieve is helping millions of lives be slaughtered.

Okay, so Stalin verses Trotsky.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1936/revbet/ch07.htm (https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1936/revbet/ch07.htm)

Since there's no way to keep two demoniacs from killing millions of people, we need to put our signature on one of them. How about no?
Title: Re: Stalin banned abortions?
Post by: Geremia on September 04, 2020, 04:53:06 PM
https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1936/revbet/ch07.htm (https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1936/revbet/ch07.htm)
Fr. Ripperger quoted this in his talk "Feminism: Women & the Natural Order (https://youtu.be/9e7slbAugBQ)".

Trump's promotion of women in the (male) workplaces is reminiscent…
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Prayerful on September 04, 2020, 06:01:53 PM
Zio-Don was waving the sodomite flag as a candidate, a Republican first. The problem is any gains like ending the contraception mandate and reasonable judicial appointments (if sometimes flawed, like the Jesuit educated SC appointment with the fake controversy) will be reversed. I can see why a Catholic might want to turn away from this Hobson's Choice, but Joe Biden as nominal President promises a severe disimprovement for Catholics. The anti-Catholic, Zionist led (eg the laughable Shaun King who's as white as a Jew can be) BLM wage riotous warfare on behalf of Joe Biden. BLM riots will likely end the same moment as COVID does if Biden is elected, but the disappearance of two anti-Catholic frauds, just means something else will appear to afflict American Catholics. Trump should get a reluctant vote. Not voting makes the avoidable harm of Joe Biden likelier. 
Title: Re: Stalin banned abortions?
Post by: St Ignatius on September 04, 2020, 10:18:10 PM
source please


Let's keep things in perspective here... the outlawing of abortion by Stalin was FAR from anything virtuous! Russia had suffered great loss of life to the Bolshevik revolution, WWI and WWII, not hard to come up with the proper conclusion here...
Title: Re: Stalin banned abortions?
Post by: Geremia on September 05, 2020, 11:34:42 AM
I misremembered, it was in 1936. Here you go:
https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/family-laws-1936 (https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/family-laws-1936#:~:text=FAMILY%20LAWS%20OF%201936%20In%201936%2C%20the%20Soviet,1936%2C%20however%2C%20the%20Central%20Executive%20Committee%20outlawed%20abortion.)
Interesting.
Quote
In 1936, however, the Central Executive Committee outlawed abortion. … The criminalization of abortion reflected growing anxiety among health workers, managers, and state officials over the rising number of abortions, the falling birth rate, the shortage of labor, and the possibility of war.
These are most Republicans' reasons, too. They're good reasons, but certainly not the most important ones.
Title: Re: Stalin banned abortions?
Post by: Croixalist on September 05, 2020, 04:29:28 PM
Interesting.These are most Republicans' reasons, too. They're good reasons, but certainly not the most important ones.

Absolutely. We don't even identify frame of mind as communist anymore, it's mainstream. The religious aspect, the real truth of the matter, has been a topic to be avoided as a matter of course. The "real" reasons are linked only to the material: the ethnicity lost, the economy lost, the mental health toll, etc. Republicans are only different from the democrats by degrees. They're not as hedonistic or godless, but the trend is following the rising flood level.
Title: Re: Stalin banned abortions?
Post by: forlorn on September 05, 2020, 08:00:51 PM
I misremembered, it was in 1936. Here you go:

https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/family-laws-1936#:~:text=FAMILY%20LAWS%20OF%201936%20In%201936%2C%20the%20Soviet,1936%2C%20however%2C%20the%20Central%20Executive%20Committee%20outlawed%20abortion. (https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/family-laws-1936#:~:text=FAMILY%20LAWS%20OF%201936%20In%201936%2C%20the%20Soviet,1936%2C%20however%2C%20the%20Central%20Executive%20Committee%20outlawed%20abortion.)

Okay, so Stalin verses Trotsky.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1936/revbet/ch07.htm (https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1936/revbet/ch07.htm)

Since there's no way to keep two demoniacs from killing millions of people, we need to put our signature on one of them. How about no?
And all you get for your grandstand is... millions of abortions. Congrats. 
Title: Re: Stalin banned abortions?
Post by: Croixalist on September 06, 2020, 04:07:37 AM
And all you get for your grandstand is... millions of abortions. Congrats.

And for your hard-earned single-issue vote, you get the feast of heretics: one truth mixed with a multitude of lies. This is why even trads can be corralled and swayed by the pillow talk of politicians.

A double-effect in regards to the President overturning Abortion is incredibly weak and removed by several levels of bureaucracy and corruption in this country. Now that we have seen what a majority conservative "Supreme" Court does with tranny normalization, Roe v. Wade might as well be part of the original Constitution. Without a miracle of a magnitude greater than the acts of Milan and Thessalonica combined, it will not happen. This is well beyond either party at this point. You might as well get a converted Democrat as you might a Republican, because both parties have placed themselves to the far left of anything the Church stands for.  

It must also be stated that without a dedication to the whole truth, the one, holy and apostolic Catholic Church, that even if one manages to remove abortion, you will immediately be confronted with those promoted and protected lifestyles so poisonous to the soul as to relegate the vast majority of these innocent lives to Hell the moment they are dragged into the age of reason by parroting their parents' evil ways. Speaking of a collective lesser evil, which is "better": a guaranteed eternity in limbo or a 99% chance of eternity in Hell? Tell me oh great voter!

Don't ever promote Trump like he's some kind of savior. This is the grisly fate that awaits all duped conservatives who think they can tap-dance with the devil. We could stop excusing notorious sinners in their sin and start glorifying God and His Church by demanding that all of His Law be supported and followed. Did Our Lady ask us to vote or to pray? Her Triumph will not be at a ballot box. Sufferage has been given over to worldy men (minority) and women (majority) of both parties to show precisely where the power of God is not.

To recap: Trump cannot repeal abortion even if he wanted to (he doesn't), Trump will absolutely continue the Satanic LGBT sexual revulsion revolution, and the miracle needed for abortion to be repealed will have to be big enough to wipe the entire political spectrum down to the marrow of its kosher bones anyway. We have to promote the Church in toto, not one issue at a time.


Title: voting ≠ idolatry
Post by: Geremia on September 06, 2020, 04:13:39 PM
Tell me oh great voter!
Don't ever promote Trump like he's some kind of savior.

Quote from: Ps. 117:9, today's gradual
It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in princes.
It doesn't say: "Don't trust princes."
I don't think anyone here considers Trump a savior; there is only one Savior.

Her Triumph will not be at a ballot box.
How do you know?

Is voting idolatry? the same as offering a grain of incense to false gods?
Title: Duty & manner of voting, & conditions for voting for unworthy candidates
Post by: Geremia on September 06, 2020, 04:14:40 PM
McHugh & Callan Moral Theology §2643 (https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/35354/pg35354-images.html#id06278)-4:
Quote
2643. The Duty of Exercising the Electoral Franchise.—(a) There is a grave duty of using the privilege granted to citizens of voting in public elections, and especially primaries; for the welfare of the community and the moral, intellectual and physical good of individuals depend on the kind of men who are nominated or chosen to rule, and on the ticket platforms voted for. Hence, those who neglect to vote coöperate negatively with a serious harm (viz., evil in power), or at least with public unconcern about public matters—for example, those who neglect through laziness or indifference to condemn by their vote. A grave inconvenience (e.g., sickness, ostracism, exile, persecution), but not a slight inconvenience (such as loss of time, trouble, ridicule), excuses from the duty; for an affirmative law has exceptions. Neither is there an obligation to vote when an election is a mere formality, as when there is but one candidate or party.

(b) The duty is not one of commutative justice, as the ballot is either a privilege, or a thing commanded by authority, but not a service to which the citizen has bound himself by contract or office. The obligation is, therefore, one of legal justice, arising from the fact that the common weal is everybody's business and responsibility, especially in a republic. Hence, representatives of the people who by abstention from voting cause a serious damage which they were bound ex officio to prevent, are guilty of commutative injustice and are held to restitution; but a citizen who stays away from the polls sins, and perhaps gravely, against legal justice, though there is no duty of restitution for the damages that result. Moreover, in a general election the vote of one citizen is usually not of decisive influence, and citizens do not make themselves responsible for all the acts of their representatives.

2644. Manner of Voting.—(a) Object.—It is not necessary to vote for the best candidate, provided one votes for a person who is fitted by character, ability, record, experience, etc. for the office, and gives indications, not merely promises, that he will serve the community well. But in certain ecclesiastical elections the voters must take oath beforehand to vote, not only for a worthy candidate, but also for the person whom they honestly think, all things considered, most worthy. In minor offices (such as constable or town clerk) it suffices that the candidate be known as conscientious; but in major offices (such as President, governor, congressman, legislator, or judge) the party principles for which he stands have to be considered chiefly. Per accidens, it is lawful to vote for an unworthy candidate when this is necessary to prevent a greater evil, as when the opposing candidate is much worse, or a good ticket cannot be elected unless some less worthy candidates are included.

(b) Purpose.—The end which the voter should have in mind is the good of the public, and hence it is not right to vote for candidates solely or chiefly because they are personal friends, members of one's own race, organization or religion, or because one wishes to gain favor or escape enmity.

(c) Circumstances.—The voter must avoid all that is contrary to natural law (e.g., selling of votes, repeating, stuffing ballot boxes) or positive law (e.g., state laws require not only citizenship and a period of previous residence, but also other conditions such as registration and freedom from bribery and other election crimes). The opinion that politics is necessarily corrupt, and that all is fair that helps to win, is a false and pernicious doctrine. The conditions for ecclesiastical elections are given in Canons 160 sqq.

Fr. Titus Cranny, S.A. (1921-1981), The Moral Obligation of Voting (https://novusordowatch.org/2020/09/morality-of-voting-permissible-lesser-of-two-evils/):
Quote from: pp. 93-6
4. CONDITIONS UNDER WHICH ONE MAY VOTE FOR UNWORTHY CANDIDATES

By the term “unworthy candidates” we do not necessarily mean men whose private lives are morally reprehensible, but those who, if elected, would cause grave injury to the state or to religion, as for example, men of vacillating temperament who fear to make decisions.

In practical life it is often difficult to determine whether a particular candidate is worthy or unworthy because there seems little upon which to judge accurately, especially in local or municipal elections. It does not follow that every Catholic is necessarily the best man for office and that every non-Catholic is not; nor that every Catholic will promote the interests of the common good of the state and of religion and that the non-Catholic will not. Even if a man is of sterling character in his private life, he will not by necessity prove competent in public office. Sometimes too, as St. Robert Bellarmine pointed out in his De laicis [c. 4, p. 7] the so-called evil rulers may do more good than harm, as Saul and Solomon. It is better for the state to have an evil ruler than no ruler at all, for where there is no ruler the state cannot long endure, as the wise Solomon observed: “Where there is no governor the people will fail” [Prov. 11:14].

When unworthy candidates are running for office, ordinarily a citizen does not have the obligation of voting for them. Indeed he would not be permitted to vote for them if there were any reasonable way of electing a worthy man, either by organizing another party, by using the “write in” method, or by any other lawful means. On the other hand, it would be licit to vote for an unworthy man if the choice were only between or among unworthy candidates; and it might even be necessary to vote for such an unworthy candidate (if the voting were limited to such personalities) and even for one who would render harm to the Church, provided the election were only a choice from among unworthy men and the voting for the less unworthy would prevent the election of another more unworthy.

Since the act of voting is good, it is lawful to vote for an unworthy candidate provided there is a proportionate cause for the evil done and the good lost. This consideration looks simply to the act of voting in itself and does not consider other factors such as scandal, encouragement of unworthy men, and a bad influence upon other voters. Obviously, if any or all of these other factors are present, the excusing cause for voting for an unworthy candidate would have to be proportionately graver [“Nearly all modern theologians admit that to elect a man whom one considers evil is not an intrinsically evil thing, and therefore it may sometimes per accidens be permitted in order to avert greater evils.” Prümmer, Manuale theologiæ moralis (https://isidore.co/calibre/#panel=book_details&book_id=7244), 2, 604].

Lehmkuhl says that it is never allowed to vote absolutely for a man of evil principles, but hypothetice it may be allowed if the election is between men of evil principles. Then one should vote for him who is less evil (1) if he makes known the reason for his choice; (2) if the election is necessary to exclude a worse candidate [Compendium, 343]. The same author in his Casus conscientiae lists the general argument, adding that there must be no approbation of the unworthy man or of his programme [1, 729].

Tanquerey declares that if the vote is between a socialist and another liberal, the citizen may vote for the less evil, but he should publicly declare why he is voting this way, to avoid any scandalum pusillorum [i.e. to avoid scandalizing those weaker in Faith] [Synposis theologiae moralis et pastoralis, 3, 981]. Prümmer says the same [Manuale theologiæ moralis (https://isidore.co/calibre/#panel=book_details&book_id=7244), 2, 604]. Actually, however, in the United States and in other countries where the balloting is secret, there seems to be no need of declaring one’s manner of voting.

Several authors including Ubach, Merkelbach, Iorio, Piscetta-Gennaro, and Sabetti-Barrett allow for material cooperation in the election of an unworthy candidate when there are two unworthy men running for office. Ubach adds this point: (1) There must be no cooperation in the evil which the man brings upon society after assuming office; (2) The voting must not be taken as an approval of the candidate or of his unworthiness. Merkelbach asserts that such cooperation may be licit per accidens if there is no hope that good men will be elected without voting for the bad ones in the same election.

As a practical point it may be remarked that at times a citizen may have to vote for an unworthy man in order to vote for a worthy one, e.g., when people have to vote a straight party ticket, at least in a primary election when the “split ticket” is not permitted. However the good to be gained would have to outweigh the evil to be avoided, or at least be equal to it.

In his Casus Genicot [Casus conscientiæ, 138], sets up a case of an election between a liberal and a Communist. To avoid scandal the citizen should give reasons for voting for the liberal. One does not support the evil candidate but simply applies the principle of double effect. This author also says that a person may use a mental reservation in promising to vote for an unworthy man.

Cardinal Amette, Archbishop of Paris, implies the liceity of voting for an unworthy candidate when he writes of voting for a less worthy one. “It would be lawful to cast them,” he writes,” for candidates who though not giving complete satisfaction to all our legitimate demands, would lead us to expect from them a line of conduct useful to the country, rather than to keep your votes for those whose program would indeed be more perfect, but whose almost certain defeat might open the door to the enemies of religious [sic] and of the social order” [John A. Ryan and Francis Boland, Catholic Principles of Politics (https://isidore.co/calibre/#panel=book_details&book_id=4964), 207-208].

Thus we may say that it is permitted to vote for unworthy candidates (that is, give material cooperation) if these are the only type of men on the ballot lists; in order to exclude the more unworthy; in order to secure the election of one who is somewhat unworthy instead of voting for a good man whose defeat is certain; and when the list is mixed containing both worthy and unworthy men, so that a citizen can vote for the former only by voting for the latter at the same time.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Matto on September 06, 2020, 04:31:37 PM
Modernism.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Yeti on September 06, 2020, 05:08:12 PM
Leo XIII and Pius XI, antipopes.
Sorry, what?? :confused:
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Matto on September 06, 2020, 05:30:36 PM
Sorry, what?? :confused:
That was a joke. However I do think it would be more fitting if there were more sede-whatevers out there who considered Benedict XV, Pius XI, and Pius XII to be anti-popes, especially Pius XII.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Yeti on September 06, 2020, 05:42:06 PM
That was a joke. However I do think it would be more fitting if there were more sede-whatevers out there who considered Benedict XV, Pius XI, and Pius XII to be anti-popes, especially Pius XII.
Oh, okay. But the rest of your response was so strange that I'm kind of at a loss for what to respond.
Title: Re: voting ≠ idolatry
Post by: Croixalist on September 06, 2020, 06:42:35 PM
It doesn't say: "Don't trust princes."
I don't think anyone here considers Trump a savior; there is only one Savior.
How do you know?

Is voting idolatry? the same as offering a grain of incense to false gods?

It could be idolatry depending on how one goes about it. Voting in this country's current state is at best a waste of time and at worst an actual endorsement of hybrid zio-masonic-satanic conservatism. We've lost the political-cultural war many times over.  Every option is being provided by the Church's enemies and there is no good or "worthy" option in my view. I am completely done giving each Republican candidate a free pass. Every single election cycle it becomes more and more obvious that they do not represent Catholics, they have no intention of protecting the Church from Her enemies, and that there are far too many "checks and balances" in place to insure that all "Christian" efforts are relegated to token resistance. There is only one way out of this and it has to be Catholic. Not almost Catholic, not Novus Ordo Catholic, not non-denom Zio-Christian.

Catholic.

I'm only using "savior" in a rhetorical sense. We've had four years of this guy and he's no closer to converting than he was when he first came into office. His "conservative" judges can't manage to take a stand against satanic transsexuals. Gee I wonder why! Oh is that Trump bragging about how long he knew Epstein and joking about his proclivity for young girls? You don't say! Oh, is that our Great White Hope Trump wishing Ghislaine Maxwell luck? Wowee, he must be using his trademark Trump Christian charity again! Oh was that Trump with the rainbow flag?... an Israeli flag?... an entire family sold out to jews? Well anything is better than abortion... let's just all jump like gazelle goyim to the polls!

If you're voting for Trump, you've got to know what you're voting for. You've got to be aware of what his corrupt agenda is. Once you really understand that, there is no reason why anyone here should feel the need to actively promote him. Every election is an meditation on failure and satanic control. I repeat, there are literally no "good" options, only the lesser evils. We have now finally come to the moment when transsexual rights are to be considered the "lesser evil." I don't want to have anything to do with that.

You may be more optimistic than I am about the current state of our country and its politics. You may truly believe Our Lady's Triumph will occur this way. If you are a well meaning trad, all that I can say is that I respectfully disagree. If nothing else, when that optimism finally wears off at a certain point and you're looking at the same reality I'm looking at and every political angle is overflowing with ravenous wolves, just remember to keep praying for the complete and unadulterated Triumph of the Immaculate Heart. We know it will happen at some point when all hope will appear to have been lost.

Well, I don't want to say "are we there yet?" but... are we there yet?
Title: Re: voting ≠ idolatry
Post by: Geremia on September 06, 2020, 10:26:47 PM
there are literally no "good" options, only the lesser evils. We have now finally come to the moment when transsexual rights are to be considered the "lesser evil." I don't want to have anything to do with that.
Either way, you already have. Aren't citizens (even righteous ones) in some way responsible for their country's sins?
Title: Re: voting ≠ idolatry
Post by: Croixalist on September 06, 2020, 11:51:02 PM
Either way, you already have. Aren't citizens (even righteous ones) in some way responsible for their country's sins?

So if I'm guilty already, why not wallow in it? No. We do not share the responsibility for the nation's sins if we do not partake in them but we do bear the consequences due from them just the same. Hence, our current state. Hence, why true Catholic leaders are so important because without them there is nothing save Our Lady herself that will keep the punishments of God from scourging the Earth, both the good and the evil. We've become far too comfortable and too content to vote for someone else's party. Our enemies know it and have taken full advantage of it.

Make the Catholic vote a lot tougher to earn.
Title: Re: voting ≠ idolatry
Post by: PAT317 on September 07, 2020, 09:30:25 AM
So if I'm guilty already, why not wallow in it? No. We do not share the responsibility for the nation's sins if we do not partake in them but we do bear the consequences due from them just the same. Hence, our current state. Hence, why true Catholic leaders are so important because without them there is nothing save Our Lady herself that will keep the punishments of God from scourging the Earth, both the good and the evil. We've become far too comfortable and too content to vote for someone else's party. Our enemies know it and have taken full advantage of it.

Make the Catholic vote a lot tougher to earn.
.
Hear, hear!

[If only Cathlics had done this years ago.] 
Title: Re: Stalin banned abortions?
Post by: 2Vermont on September 07, 2020, 12:35:25 PM
And for your hard-earned single-issue vote, you get the feast of heretics: one truth mixed with a multitude of lies. This is why even trads can be corralled and swayed by the pillow talk of politicians.

A double-effect in regards to the President overturning Abortion is incredibly weak and removed by several levels of bureaucracy and corruption in this country. Now that we have seen what a majority conservative "Supreme" Court does with tranny normalization, Roe v. Wade might as well be part of the original Constitution. Without a miracle of a magnitude greater than the acts of Milan and Thessalonica combined, it will not happen. This is well beyond either party at this point. You might as well get a converted Democrat as you might a Republican, because both parties have placed themselves to the far left of anything the Church stands for.  

It must also be stated that without a dedication to the whole truth, the one, holy and apostolic Catholic Church, that even if one manages to remove abortion, you will immediately be confronted with those promoted and protected lifestyles so poisonous to the soul as to relegate the vast majority of these innocent lives to Hell the moment they are dragged into the age of reason by parroting their parents' evil ways. Speaking of a collective lesser evil, which is "better": a guaranteed eternity in limbo or a 99% chance of eternity in Hell? Tell me oh great voter!

Don't ever promote Trump like he's some kind of savior. This is the grisly fate that awaits all duped conservatives who think they can tap-dance with the devil. We could stop excusing notorious sinners in their sin and start glorifying God and His Church by demanding that all of His Law be supported and followed. Did Our Lady ask us to vote or to pray? Her Triumph will not be at a ballot box. Sufferage has been given over to worldy men (minority) and women (majority) of both parties to show precisely where the power of God is not.

To recap: Trump cannot repeal abortion even if he wanted to (he doesn't), Trump will absolutely continue the Satanic LGBT sexual revulsion revolution, and the miracle needed for abortion to be repealed will have to be big enough to wipe the entire political spectrum down to the marrow of its kosher bones anyway. We have to promote the Church in toto, not one issue at a time.
Excellent post.  I am starting to promote a write-in for "Christ the King".

You should check out the posts against those of us who dare to question voting for Trump here.  You see you are anti-Catholic and an enemy of God if you do not!

https://novusordowatch.org/2020/09/morality-of-voting-permissible-lesser-of-two-evils/
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Matto on September 07, 2020, 01:15:39 PM
The only reason they allow us to vote is so we will cooperate in sin by voting for the devils they choose for us. If not for that cooperation in their sin that makes us guilty, there would be no elections. All they want is for us to sin by voting for Bush or Trump or whatever other devil they put on the ballot.

The morality pushed by some of the vote for Trumpers would have us vote for the actual antichrist because when he comes he will seem to be "the lesser evil" who brings peace. 
Title: Re: voting ≠ idolatry
Post by: Geremia on September 07, 2020, 04:13:15 PM
Make the Catholic vote a lot tougher to earn.
How?
Title: Re: Stalin banned abortions?
Post by: Geremia on September 07, 2020, 04:14:16 PM
Excellent post.  I am starting to promote a write-in for "Christ the King".
Are you a Jehovah's Witness?
Title: Re: voting ≠ idolatry
Post by: Geremia on September 07, 2020, 04:18:42 PM
We've become far too comfortable and too content to vote for someone else's party.
We live in reality, not in a land of hypothetical "what if"s. Catholics are a minority in the U.S.
Our enemies know it and have taken full advantage of it.
So?
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Geremia on September 07, 2020, 04:20:28 PM
As I understand this thread's argument so far:
The U.S. is corrupt; there is no Catholic candidate; therefore, there is no moral obligation for its citizens to participate in national elections.
Title: Re: voting ≠ idolatry
Post by: Croixalist on September 07, 2020, 06:05:06 PM
How?

By calling out Republicans on their sinful platforms, by not jumping to vote just for the Republican cause, and not throwing money at it. If they really wanted the vote, they'd have to do more and say less... at least in theory. Like PAT317 said, we should have done that earlier. Practically speaking I don't believe we are likely to regain that position again since a general apostasy has set in. There is no process in place to build up tradition faster than it is collapsing and because representative democracy always tends towards the lowest common denominator, conscientious Catholics will be an ever-shrinking minority.

I abstain not out of practical considerations, but on principle alone.

We live in reality, not in a land of hypothetical "what if"s. Catholics are a minority in the U.S.

Let's talk about this wonderful reality. Vote for a bunch of lying godless worms because God's going to work through them any minute now!
The only time in history the world ever had a saintly president was Gabriel Garcia Moreno in Ecuador, who was elected as a devout Catholic. Your hope is unfounded and by trying to force the vote on people you intuitively know to squelch all discussion on how sick and unfit a leader Trump really is.


Quote
So?

I don't know, because maybe some people don't want to be willing pawns for the NWO? Our conversation is with God.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Xenophon on September 08, 2020, 12:23:06 AM
“One day, when my Kabbalah teacher, Eitan Yardeni, asked how I was doing, I told him I needed a break.” (Kabbalah (Hebrew: קַבָּלָה, literally "reception, tradition" Donald Trump “The Way To The Top, The Best Business Advice I Ever Received”

This guy has tricked practically everyone into thinking he's some type of light that will vanquish the darkness. It doesn't even make sense considering how popular he was before the election, he was pretty well known to americans in the 90s with his iniquitous tv shows and pornographic lifestyle...

Anyway, you are actively supporting this if you vote for it, (lesser of two evils is a fallacy) Its obvious to anyone its a grave sin to support, endorse and condone this abomination and, of course, the other abominations.

Paula White, Trumps Personal Faith Advisor (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w0kSkvusjI)
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Stubborn on September 08, 2020, 05:21:55 AM
Trump is a billionaire, his chances of getting to heaven are less than that of a camel passing through the eye of a needle. Add to that he's been married 3 times so he lives in adultery, loves jews and queers, accepts some abortions, promotes feminism, and who knows what other public sins he is guilty of committing and promoting - I am sure there are plenty.

This coming election we have two choices and only two choices to vote for the leader of our country. We are not voting for a pope.  

It is a choice between voting for one who is at least trying to make this country materially better, or one who is certainly hell bent on this country's immediate destruction.

If you don't vote at all, or vote a "write in", then you may as well vote Biden because write ins and no votes only means more votes for the guy hell bent on destroying our country. This is the situation we are in.

It's not complicated.

The powerful jews, the ones who are actually in charge, have a play book they they use no matter who the president is, but we can at least go down swinging.    

   (https://i.imgur.com/eprfnup.gif)
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on September 08, 2020, 06:56:48 AM
“One day, when my Kabbalah teacher, Eitan Yardeni, asked how I was doing, I told him I needed a break.” (Kabbalah (Hebrew: קַבָּלָה, literally "reception, tradition" Donald Trump “The Way To The Top, The Best Business Advice I Ever Received”
How many times on CI is this quote going to be posted and falsely attributed to Trump? This is at least the third time I have pointed this out. Please people, before posting do a bit of research.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 08, 2020, 07:09:42 AM
How many times on CI is this quote going to be posted and falsely attributed to Trump? This is at least the third time I have pointed this out. Please people, before posting do a bit of research.

And it doesn't even matter.  There's no shortage of evidence that Trump is a Jewish sock puppet.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on September 08, 2020, 10:05:41 AM
And it doesn't even matter.  There's no shortage of evidence that Trump is a Jewish sock puppet.

Lad, you *suspect* that and you definitely have evidence that supports you, but I contend he is being cagey. I readily admit that he believes that the “ends justify”, thus no good Catholic, without Gods intervention, could spoil the plans of the conspirators. I also believe he *naturally* has a good heart and has good intentions.

God uses imperfect and sinful people in accomplishing His will. We should all remember that we only profess the True Faith and are, hopefully, in a state of sanctifying grace because we have cooperated with God’s grace. Also, remember that we can lose that grace (and, God forbid, the Faith) at any time and be just as sinful as (and perhaps even worse than) President Trump.
Title: Be subject to every human creature for God's sake.
Post by: Geremia on September 08, 2020, 11:19:52 AM
some people don't want to be willing pawns for the NWO?

That doesn't exempt you from being a citizen and from the duties associated with citizenship.
Quote from: 1 Pet. 2:13-14
13 Be ye subject therefore to every human creature for God's sake: whether it be to the king as excelling,
14 Or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of the good.

Fr. Titus Cranny, S.A. (1921-1981), The Moral Obligation of Voting (https://isidore.co/calibre/#panel=book_details&book_id=5603):
Quote from: Fr. Cranny
It is better for the state to have an evil ruler than no ruler at all, for where there is no ruler the state cannot long endure, as the wise Solomon observed: "Where there is no governor the people will fail" [Prov. 11:14].
The State, no matter how corrupt it may be, is still a good.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 08, 2020, 11:24:54 AM
Lad, you *suspect* that and you definitely have evidence that supports you, but I contend he is being cagey. I readily admit that he believes that the “ends justify”, thus no good Catholic, without Gods intervention, could spoil the plans of the conspirators. I also believe he *naturally* has a good heart and has good intentions.

God uses imperfect and sinful people in accomplishing His will. We should all remember that we only profess the True Faith and are, hopefully, in a state of sanctifying grace because we have cooperated with God’s grace. Also, remember that we can lose that grace (and, God forbid, the Faith) at any time and be just as sinful as (and perhaps even worse than) President Trump.

Right, but it's not about Trump being a sinner; it's about what he stands for publicly and what his agenda is.  God can turn any evil to good, of course, but that doesn't mean we're allowed to commit evil with the hope of God turning it into good.

And of course, I'm convinced that the elections are rigged and that our votes will never be allowed to offset the person they've already pre-selected to hold office.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Geremia on September 08, 2020, 11:52:43 AM
I'm convinced that the elections are rigged and that our votes will never be allowed to offset the person they've already pre-selected to hold office.
Even if this is true, it doesn't exempt Catholic citizens from their moral obligation to vote.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 08, 2020, 12:45:18 PM
Even if this is true, it doesn't exempt Catholic citizens from their moral obligation to vote.

Sure it does.  You could argue that it's not certain (though it is to me), but if you know that your vote will not be counted, then there's no obligation to go vote, since the very reason for said obligation (to influence the direction of the country) no longer applies.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Geremia on September 08, 2020, 01:06:32 PM
the very reason for said obligation (to influence the direction of the country
Example is another reason.
If all Catholics abstained from voting, what sort of example would that give to the non-Catholic citizens, especially since (real) Catholic candidates (on the national level at least) don't exist? It would seem to tell them Catholics are apolitical, apathetic, and unpatriotic.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Clemens Maria on September 08, 2020, 01:47:59 PM
There is no way that you can convince me that Trump is equivalent to Biden/Harris.  It’s not even close.  Therefore I will vote for Trump and I will not have even the least pang of conscience.  I might be indignant that you non-voting people will enjoy the benefits of a president you did not vote for.  Or I might be angry that I can’t worship in my chapel anymore because it was shut down by a national edict from Biden/Harris who was elected because thousands of people who should know better failed to vote against him.  But I will not be worried in the least that I have offended God by voting for Trump over Biden.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Stubborn on September 08, 2020, 02:32:58 PM
There is no way that you can convince me that Trump is equivalent to Biden/Harris.  It’s not even close.  Therefore I will vote for Trump and I will not have even the least pang of conscience.  I might be indignant that you non-voting people will enjoy the benefits of a president you did not vote for.  Or I might be angry that I can’t worship in my chapel anymore because it was shut down by a national edict from Biden/Harris who was elected because thousands of people who should know better failed to vote against him.  But I will not be worried in the least that I have offended God by voting for Trump over Biden.
Ditto.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Tradman on September 08, 2020, 02:48:22 PM
Even if this is true, it doesn't exempt Catholic citizens from their moral obligation to vote.
Why? A vote actually represents the person voting.  Can Catholics vote for even a little homosexuality or Covid vaccines or perhaps a little concentration camping?  Our votes should not be wasted on deceptive persons promoting evil.  Not even when they promote a great good, because that isn't truly good, it's a tactic.    
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: 2Vermont on September 08, 2020, 03:27:27 PM
If you don't vote at all, or vote a "write in", then you may as well vote Biden because write ins and no votes only means more votes for the guy hell bent on destroying our country.

Not in my state.  It's electoral votes are already going to Biden.  So, whether it's a vote for Trump or a write in or no vote, the end results are the same.  
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: 2Vermont on September 08, 2020, 03:50:38 PM
There is no way that you can convince me that Trump is equivalent to Biden/Harris.  It’s not even close.  Therefore I will vote for Trump and I will not have even the least pang of conscience.  I might be indignant that you non-voting people will enjoy the benefits of a president you did not vote for.  Or I might be angry that I can’t worship in my chapel anymore because it was shut down by a national edict from Biden/Harris who was elected because thousands of people who should know better failed to vote against him.  But I will not be worried in the least that I have offended God by voting for Trump over Biden.
I don't have a problem nor think it a sin if a Catholic chooses to vote for Trump.  I do have a problem when other Catholics wag their fingers at those of us who will not/considering not doing what they do.  
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Clemens Maria on September 08, 2020, 09:54:45 PM
You may not have noticed how Obama purged the military and intelligence agencies of conservatives.  You may not have noticed how Obama only appointed lunatic left judges.  You may not have noticed that attorneys general became Marxist persecutors under Obama.  And you may not have noticed that under Obama we facilitated wars in Libya, Egypt and Syria.  Despite all the Sabre-rattling, how many wars did Trump start?  Zero!  So he may have had limited success in getting us out of current military commitments but at least he didn’t start up new ones. If Clinton had been elected, you can bet that we’d have had troop surges in Iraq on the Syrian border if not a full invasion.  How is the fact that the military brass hates Trump not prima facie evidence of his opposition to warmongering?  Trump opposed transgenders in the military.  Read the thread about how Trump outfoxed the Jews.  Unlike any other Republican candidates I can remember, he is keeping his campaign promises. At least as much as his Republican confrères will support him.  So there is no equivalence between Trump and Biden.  A write-in will not be counted.  Not voting is a failure to support a candidate who is favorable to your position.  It is basically political suicide.  I also live in a solid blue state so I sympathize with your plight but even mitigating the loss is something like a moral victory.  Those SOB demonrats will not suppress my vote.  I vote against them as much as I vote for Trump.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: 2Vermont on September 09, 2020, 05:59:43 AM
You may not have noticed how Obama purged the military and intelligence agencies of conservatives.  You may not have noticed how Obama only appointed lunatic left judges.  You may not have noticed that attorneys general became Marxist persecutors under Obama.  And you may not have noticed that under Obama we facilitated wars in Libya, Egypt and Syria.  Despite all the Sabre-rattling, how many wars did Trump start?  Zero!  So he may have had limited success in getting us out of current military commitments but at least he didn’t start up new ones. If Clinton had been elected, you can bet that we’d have had troop surges in Iraq on the Syrian border if not a full invasion.  How is the fact that the military brass hates Trump not prima facie evidence of his opposition to warmongering?  Trump opposed transgenders in the military.  Read the thread about how Trump outfoxed the Jews.  Unlike any other Republican candidates I can remember, he is keeping his campaign promises. At least as much as his Republican confrères will support him.  So there is no equivalence between Trump and Biden.  A write-in will not be counted.  Not voting is a failure to support a candidate who is favorable to your position.  It is basically political suicide.  I also live in a solid blue state so I sympathize with your plight but even mitigating the loss is something like a moral victory.  Those SOB demonrats will not suppress my vote.  I vote against them as much as I vote for Trump.
So your vote won't count either (ie. it's not mitigating a loss). I might understand your position better if you lived in a swing state.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 09, 2020, 07:20:50 AM
So your vote won't count either (ie. it's not mitigating a loss). I might understand your position better if you lived in a swing state.

Indeed, the double effect of "mitigating a loss" does not rise to the level of justifying the vote with double effect.  I live in a swing state myself, Ohio, so here it might make some kind of a difference.  Of course, my own single vote will hardly decide the election, and I doubt there are many of us conservative types in Ohio are contemplating not voting Trump because of his promotion of sodomy and other evils.

As you said, I'm not going to point any fingers at those who vote based on double effect.  I can see a case being made for that ... if you believe that the voting system is not entirely rigged and controlled.  I might be persuaded to myself, but I am convinced that they have already selected the next President and the popular vote will make no difference.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Clemens Maria on September 09, 2020, 08:40:19 AM
So your vote won't count either (ie. it's not mitigating a loss). I might understand your position better if you lived in a swing state.
My vote does count.  In MA they count votes for everyone listed on the ballot.  Write ins get grouped together in the “other” category so they don’t really count.  No one knows what you wrote except you and God.  So in a social context that’s a throwaway vote.  You might as well not waste anyone’s time and stay home.  But voting for a candidate listed on the ballot gets counted and reported publicly.  So if a trend of more votes for the losing Republican gets started, that will embolden better candidates and more money to be sent in that direction.  That is at least a moral victory if not a real advancement of Christian culture.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: 2Vermont on September 09, 2020, 02:47:44 PM
My vote does count.  In MA they count votes for everyone listed on the ballot.  Write ins get grouped together in the “other” category so they don’t really count.  No one knows what you wrote except you and God.  So in a social context that’s a throwaway vote.  You might as well not waste anyone’s time and stay home.  But voting for a candidate listed on the ballot gets counted and reported publicly.  So if a trend of more votes for the losing Republican gets started, that will embolden better candidates and more money to be sent in that direction.  That is at least a moral victory if not a real advancement of Christian culture.
Quite honestly, I think you're living in a dream world.  Sorry CM.  I typically agree with you about other things.

I tend to believe that a vote for Christ, even if it doesn't get "counted" by the world, is not a waste of time and more apt to make a difference than a vote that partakes in The Game.  I wonder how long Catholics will continue to take part in The Game.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on September 09, 2020, 03:00:45 PM
Quite honestly, I think you're living in a dream world.  Sorry CM.  I typically agree with you about other things.

I tend to believe that a vote for Christ, even if it doesn't get "counted" by the world, is not a waste of time and more apt to make a difference than another vote that partakes in The Game.  I wonder how long Catholics will continue to take part in The Game.


I guess it comes down to whether you believe that Trump is part of the conspiracy or he is an outsider. I believe that he actually, in a natural way, is inclined to help people. I see that he has changed the “politically correct” narrative and has exposed the great conspiracy. No longer are the Bilderbergers, the illuminati, and the Club of Rome’s existence believed by us “fringe conspiracy nuts”. Trump brought it mainstream.


I agree that you aren’t committing mortal sin by not voting for him, but I think you are mistaken. Humanly speaking, he is our only shot right now.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on September 09, 2020, 04:56:30 PM
Quote
I agree that you aren’t committing mortal sin by not voting for him, but I think you are mistaken. Humanly speaking, he is our only shot right now.
I disagree. I think not voting IS a vote for Biden, a patsy and a retard who will kill MORE babies, expose MORE children to pedophiles, give MORE rights to sodomites, cause MORE wars  and sell us out MORE quickly to the NWO and  their BS "virus" and the coming death serum in their attempt to mandate we all get VAXXED. And as much as a disaster creepy "uncle Joe" would be, that's just the start of it, because his ass isn't going to be around long and Congo-mala will take over and SHE WILL declare open genocide on whites and Christians, most of whom will not go along with the program of global enslavement.

All this talk and waxing eloquently about sitting this one out because the Orangeman likes fags and joos is a moot point.

Just the fact that all the freaks, weirdos and globalists like Soros who want Trump GONE  should be enough for anyone to wake up and smell the coffee that we are in a literal fight for our lives right now and the Orangeman has done more for Catholicism and the Faith than our own pope and faggot clergy on the entire planet.Not too mention what's in the best interest of America actually still being a sovereign nation.


Maybe Trump might not be all to end all, but he's all we absolutely have right now. And as far as I'm concerned, you're an idiot to not vote and sit back and just let things "happen" with at least trying. IMO at least.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 09, 2020, 09:44:37 PM

Quote
I think not voting IS a vote for Biden, a patsy and a retard who will kill MORE babies, expose MORE children to pedophiles, give MORE rights to sodomites, cause MORE wars  and sell us out MORE quickly to the NWO and  their BS "virus" and the coming death serum in their attempt to mandate we all get VAXXED.

I do agree, to some degree.  I could argue that as St Thomas More stated, "Under the law, silence gives consent."  So there's no such thing as "sitting out a vote".  In a 2-party system (which is what we have), and since at this point in history, the 3rd parties are meaningless, then a non-vote, or an avoidance of voting, is an action.  "Sitting on the sidelines" is essentially, a vote (indirectly) for Biden. 
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Theoretically, "sitting out an election" does not endorse 1 candidate or the other.  But in practical/real terms, based on the 2-party situation today, in our country, a non-vote is a (silent consent) vote for Biden.  I'm not saying such a non-vote is a sin (for i'm not the Church), but it could be argued. 
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As much emphasis as the media puts on the "popular vote" and how they use that communist-mindset to stir up the people into riot against the integrity of our electoral college, then YES a vote for Trump EVEN IN A BLUE STATE can help.  That's how important such an election is today.
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Wake up, people!  The communists are at the door!  Civil war, WW3, food shortages, FEMA camps are HERE!  It is the 11th hour!  WE ARE AT WAR!  Put down the moral theology manuals and make practical decisions!
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Tradman on September 10, 2020, 08:24:06 AM
Republicans printing up more debt. Voting on the Corona Virus bill soon. I can hear people say "Well, at least Democrats want 3 trillion compared to Republican 300 billion, that's why I'm voting for Trump."

https://youtu.be/L8YAAQN0rEg
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 10, 2020, 02:38:08 PM
Based on this thread here:
https://www.cathinfo.com/politics-and-world-leaders/pp-gets-more-$$-under-trump-admin-than-ever-b4/

I now hold that it would be a grave sin to vote for Trump.

Trump administration has not only continued to fund Planned Parenthood, but increased the spending by a record amount.

Double effect vis-a-vis abortion no longer applies.  Voting for Trump means voting for Planned Parenthood funding.  You cannot commit one murder even to prevent millions of other murders.  Consequently, this fails the proportionality condition of double effect.  With sodomy, one could make the case that the evil of abortion far outweighed the evil of sodomy (though some might disagree) and so was an acceptable secondary effect.  $616 million given to Planned Parenthood is utterly unacceptable and under no circumstances can a Catholic vote for Donald J. Trump.

So much for the "most Pro Life president ever".
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Caraffa on September 10, 2020, 05:18:01 PM
Based on this thread here:
https://www.cathinfo.com/politics-and-world-leaders/pp-gets-more-$$-under-trump-admin-than-ever-b4/

I now hold that it would be a grave sin to vote for Trump.

Trump administration has not only continued to fund Planned Parenthood, but increased the spending by a record amount.

Double effect vis-a-vis abortion no longer applies.  Voting for Trump means voting for Planned Parenthood funding.  You cannot commit one murder even to prevent millions of other murders.  Consequently, this fails the proportionality condition of double effect.  With sodomy, one could make the case that the evil of abortion far outweighed the evil of sodomy (though some might disagree) and so was an acceptable secondary effect.  $616 million given to Planned Parenthood is utterly unacceptable and under no circumstances can a Catholic vote for Donald J. Trump.

So much for the "most Pro Life president ever".
There can be legitimate reasons for not voting for Trump, but this isn't one of them. The increase in Planned Parenthood funding is due to Medicaid reimbursement for health services. PP already left Title X funding and it's not like the number of live abortions or abortion rate is rising, though the fall predates Trump. 
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Caraffa on September 10, 2020, 05:20:46 PM
The ironic part for those not wanting to vote for Trump over abortion is should Biden/Harris win, that issue would essentially be over. There could be a silver lining in that situation in that the "culture war"* comes to an end, but the demographic age comes more to the forefront.  

*But as Pat Buchanan might note, you're not going to win a culture war unless you get the demographics right.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 10, 2020, 09:57:09 PM

Quote
The increase in Planned Parenthood funding is due to Medicaid reimbursement for health services.
Thank you for providing specific facts to an otherwise overly-general topic.  
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 10, 2020, 10:07:43 PM
Quote
Republicans printing up more debt. Voting on the Corona Virus bill soon. I can hear people say "Well, at least Democrats want 3 trillion compared to Republican 300 billion, that's why I'm voting for Trump."
I don’t like this anymore than anyone else, but at this point in time, the US is between a rock and a hard place, economically.  1) The dollar is cooked.  The fiat game is over, so printing must continue until it’s time for hyper inflation and a new currency reset.  It can’t be avoided, it’s just a matter of when.
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2). This virus has shut down the economy, which is deflationary.  So all this spending and the Fed buying stocks/bonds is the only thing keeping the stock market from crashing.  Trump/republicans have to keep spending or else they’ll be blamed for the ticking time-bomb of going off the gold standard, which has been building since the 70s.
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The democrats are all for printing too, they just want to use some of the money for welfare (or kickbacks to their voter base).  The bill will get passed, it’s just a matter of how it’s spent.
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P.s.  this exact same scenario (currency crisis, crazy money printing) is happening all around the world, in Europe, China, Asia, etc.  And all these global banks are interconnected.  So if one country goes bankrupt and crashes, they all go.  It’s just a matter of time.  Then right after the crash, (as usually happens to distract the people from economic problems), a war will be started (this time WW3).  This follows many prophecies and was also the freemasonic plan of Albert Pike.  Buckle up!!  
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 11, 2020, 09:39:23 AM
There can be legitimate reasons for not voting for Trump, but this isn't one of them. The increase in Planned Parenthood funding is due to Medicaid reimbursement for health services. PP already left Title X funding and it's not like the number of live abortions or abortion rate is rising, though the fall predates Trump.

False reasoning.  Trump is responsible for these abortions by signing the budgets.  He can also attempt to use Execute Orders to put an end to these.  One cannot commit even a single murder in order to prevent many more murders.  Voting for Trump is voting for murder.  This fails the double effect test.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 11, 2020, 09:45:02 AM
False reasoning.  Trump is responsible for these abortions by signing the budgets.  He can also attempt to use Execute Orders to put an end to these.  One cannot commit even a single murder in order to prevent many more murders.  Voting for Trump is voting for murder.  This fails the double effect test.
I think its a stretch to say people who vote for Trump in spite of his weaker position on abortion are voting *for* abortion.

That said in the case of Trump himself, I agree.  Voting for these budgets isn't defensible morally.  Sure, if he was a Catholic, and we had pre Vatican II style bishops, he could be excommunicated for it.  But obviously that's not the situation
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 11, 2020, 10:04:57 AM

Quote
He can also attempt to use Execute Orders to put an end to these.
You obviously have no idea how a republic form of govt works.  Budgets are part of the LEGISLATIVE branch.  An EXECUTIVE order cannot overrule legislation but only affect EXECUTIVE POLICIES when a law gives an EXECUTIVE agency power to make decisions.  You’re making this out to be less complex than it is. 
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: forlorn on September 11, 2020, 10:24:14 AM
False reasoning.  Trump is responsible for these abortions by signing the budgets.  He can also attempt to use Execute Orders to put an end to these.  One cannot commit even a single murder in order to prevent many more murders.  Voting for Trump is voting for murder.  This fails the double effect test.
He did. Many times. Here's just one example, but if you look up "Trump Planned Parenthood" you'll find dozens more: 
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/22/health/trump-defunds-planned-parenthood.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/22/health/trump-defunds-planned-parenthood.html)
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 11, 2020, 12:40:35 PM
Yes, he's done some things, but it's not enough.  There can be no double effect justification for voting Trump.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Ladislaus on September 11, 2020, 12:42:51 PM
You obviously have no idea how a republic form of govt works.  Budgets are part of the LEGISLATIVE branch.  An EXECUTIVE order cannot overrule legislation but only affect EXECUTIVE POLICIES when a law gives an EXECUTIVE agency power to make decisions.  You’re making this out to be less complex than it is.

Despite your all caps, I am well aware that budgets are proposed by the LEGISLATIVE branch, which is why I stated that Trump was required to VETO any budget that contained funding for Planned Parenthood ... and force them to override it if possible.

As far as EXECUTIVE orders, Presidents have been encroaching upon the legislative domain for many years now with these things, and a lot of what they have done has been allowed to stand.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 11, 2020, 07:00:31 PM

Quote
Trump was required to VETO any budget that contained funding for Planned Parenthood ... and force them to override it if possible.
Since Trump isn’t Catholic, and neither is most of Congress, nor most of those in our govt, and neither is our country catholic then your expectations don’t fit reality.  
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If a catholic can be excused from attending the novus ordo (which is a much more horrible offense to God), because they “didn’t grasp its errors”, which you agreed with in the other post related to TIA, then a non-catholic President, in a non-catholic country, in a budgetary process that is full of negotiations and back room deals can’t be blamed for a budget that INDIRECTLY funds an evil organization, especially when such funding is a small % of said budget. 
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on September 12, 2020, 06:07:50 AM
Yes, he's done some things, but it's not enough.  There can be no double effect justification for voting Trump.
Oh Don't worry, Biden/Harris will do plenty. like turn this country into a anti-Christian, anti-white, anti-business, anti-freedom, third world, commie banana-republic sh*thole that will ship people like you to the gulags that much faster than if the orangeman had won. So while your in your graysuit with the little red star on your cap waiting for "re-education", you can wax eloquently about how you stayed out of the election because of "double-effect" justification.Not that your captors will really give a crap about you and your scruples. you will either bend a knee to them or your a dead man, it's that simple.

I don't know how many times I have to say it. WE ARE IN A WAR. And you have to CHOOSE a side. Not choosing is in effect allowing one side or the other an advantage and that will indeed have an EFFECT. Sadly, the Left is Right when they are demanding people show support or recognition for their cause. THEY  do no give you an OPTION. And THEY will not after the election, THEY  will make you submit or else. At least with  the orange man you will have a fighting chance, even if it's for a short time or we can gather up within 4 years and send a serious Catholic candidate in 2024. But until then, you have only two options;a complete jew-controlled  commie/useful goyim  takeover relinquishing your national sovereignty and inalienable rights submitting to a elitist, globalist entity or a jew controlled capitalist/zionist who will at least allow us some sense of normalcy and freedom and who has given at least on the appearance a voice to the Christian/Catholic worldview and agenda.


I really believe God's hand is in all this. All this had to happen. these radicals and globalists have been lurking and operating in the shadows for years, quietly implementing their agenda. But they have recently come out more brazen and embolden out of desperation because of the success of the DT, Putin and other countries putting their interests first and now they have thrown caution to the wind with "Covid" and their attempted  global commie coup and America is ground zero in this battle.


If they can take us down with this election, it's over. At least for awhile until we can have true global resistance.

This election is that important.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Croixalist on September 12, 2020, 06:53:10 AM
Oh Don't worry, Biden/Harris will do plenty. like turn this country into a anti-Christian, anti-white, anti-business, anti-freedom, third world, commie banana-republic sh*thole that will ship people like you to the gulags that much faster than if the orangeman had won. So while your in your graysuit with the little red star on your cap waiting for "re-education", you can wax eloquently about how you stayed out of the election because of "double-effect" justification.Not that your captors will really give a crap about you and your scruples. you will either bend a knee to them or your a dead man, it's that simple.

I don't know how many times I have to say it. WE ARE IN A WAR. And you have to CHOOSE a side. Not choosing is in effect allowing one side or the other an advantage and that will indeed have an EFFECT. Sadly, the Left is Right when they are demanding people show support or recognition for their cause. THEY  do no give you an OPTION. And THEY will not after the election, THEY  will make you submit or else. At least with  the orange man you will have a fighting chance, even if it's for a short time or we can gather up within 4 years and send a serious Catholic candidate in 2024. But until then, you have only two options;a complete jew-controlled  commie/useful goyim  takeover relinquishing your national sovereignty and inalienable rights submitting to a elitist, globalist entity or a jew controlled capitalist/zionist who will at least allow us some sense of normalcy and freedom and who has given at least on the appearance a voice to the Christian/Catholic worldview and agenda.


I really believe God's hand is in all this. All this had to happen. these radicals and globalists have been lurking and operating in the shadows for years, quietly implementing their agenda. But they have recently come out more brazen and embolden out of desperation because of the success of the DT, Putin and other countries putting their interests first and now they have thrown caution to the wind with "Covid" and their attempted  global commie coup and America is ground zero in this battle.


If they can take us down with this election, it's over. At least for awhile until we can have true global resistance.

This election is that important.

What do you mean "turn?" Aren't we simply gasping for air before the persecution gets worse? Then you say "faster," which is closer to what could happen. If it were faster we might resist more. As they say, "The slow pace wins the race."

Ultimately, it's coming down to bargaining for time with integrity. But please, let's stop pretending they'd ever let a President come to power who would (or could without the other branches) ever seriously challenge abortion. Stop letting Trump and every other Republican out there think they've got the Catholic vote wrapped up because they prance their fake Judeo-Christianity in front of us. March for Life all we want: our space has been assigned, our cause has been noted and our votes have been dutifully collected and there is no change from one decade to the next.

If you truly believe we are at war, you better pick the only side worth fighting for. Not for an artificial 2-party system of crowd control. You fight for Trump, you fight on his terms with his rhetoric and his memes, and it's misguided to believe the Church benefits from it.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on September 13, 2020, 09:04:09 AM
Quote
What do you mean "turn?"
Do I really have to explain this to you?

Quote
Aren't we simply gasping for air before the persecution gets worse?
Maybe you are, some people are actually trying to do something about it except just sit back and accept the inevitable.

Actually, that is a commie technique, they always talk about the "inevitability" of their victory over the nation/culture their infecting. I refuse to internalize their bs. Go ahead if you want to and embrace a spirit of defeatism to the pinkos.

Quote
Then you say "faster," which is closer to what could happen. If it were faster we might resist more.
I don't let the enemy get an advantage and get right on top of me before I actually decide to do something about it.

Quote
As they say, "The slow pace wins the race."
I believe the saying is "Slow and STEADY wins the race". that might work in a marathon, not in a 100 yd dash.

And it damn well will not work when you're in a literal fight for your life.

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. But please, let's stop pretending they'd ever let a President come to power who would (or could without the other branches) ever seriously challenge abortion.
Yea, well, for now, we'll take what we can get until do have a leader who will end abortion. This president, at in least IMO, has done or attempted more than any other up to this point to even try and take on infanticide. He certainly does more than the majority of "catholics" and the heirarchy in Rome, including the one in the Chair who won't even judge faggots and protects child-rapists and kiddie diddlers. You know what, I think even the trads on here should concentrate on what their own Church is doing about all the faggotry and pederasty going on in the Church before they try holding  U.S. Presidents and politicians up to their standards that even a fraction of their own clergy could/do live up to. Stop trying to elect the next leader of this country saint/bishop/pope. It's not happening.

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If you truly believe we are at war, you better pick the only side worth fighting for.
I did .

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Not for an artificial 2-party system of crowd control.
Uh, have you not notices in the past 4 yrs how much Trump is bascially NOT part of the two-party system?

Have you ever wondered why this guy is literally hated by just about every big player on both sides of the aisle?

You can tell a lot about a man by his enemies. Anyone who George Soros has come out and publicly condemned and is working to be removed, is basically doing the Will of the Lord in my opinion. Donald Trump is hated collectively  by all the global elites, commies, skull and bones and Epstein groupies all over the world. that should tell you something. He is NOT part of the "system".

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You fight for Trump, you fight on his terms with his rhetoric and his memes, and it's misguided to believe the Church benefits from it.
I fight for the Truth, it matters not who's holding the banner to me. God is no respecter of persons, rich or poor.

And God will be the judge on who was just using rhetorical slogans and twitter memes  to get elected. God looks into the heart of every man and determines his worth. And God is not deceived or mocked, we will reap what we sow with this election and every man will be accountable for his actions and decisions concerning as such. I have no problem supporting Trump at this point. We have to do everything possible to stop this demonic , Godless,  Bolshevik communism and globalism from enslaving all of us and I believe DT gives us the best chance for now. And I will cast that vote before God and man.

And my conscious is clear.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: 2Vermont on September 15, 2020, 04:53:42 AM
And God will be the judge on who was just using rhetorical slogans and twitter memes  to get elected. God looks into the heart of every man and determines his worth. And God is not deceived or mocked, we will reap what we sow with this election and every man will be accountable for his actions and decisions concerning as such. I have no problem supporting Trump at this point. We have to do everything possible to stop this demonic , Godless,  Bolshevik communism and globalism from enslaving all of us and I believe DT gives us the best chance for now. And I will cast that vote before God and man.

And my conscious is clear.
And those of us who end up deciding to do differently will feel the same way about their consciences.  If you truly believe that it is up to God to judge, then perhaps you should stop wagging your finger at those who think differently than you about this election.  But I fully expect that, if Trump loses the election, you and those like you will blame the rest for not voting for him.  
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: XavierSem on September 15, 2020, 06:50:06 AM
Not voting is a vote for Biden. It should not be an option. Catholics must turn out to vote Trump in 2020. When a critical mass of judges have been appointed, the tide will turn on abortion and the other issues. Ave Maria was sung at the White House the other day. President Trump is the First President to personally address the March for Life, with VP Mike Pence joining in from the Vatican. President Trump's administration has been pro-life, pro-Christian, even pro-Catholic. President Trump richly deserves 4 more years. With the radical left supporting looting and rioting, it becomes even more of an obligation to support President Trump to avoid utter destruction.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: 2Vermont on September 15, 2020, 03:54:55 PM
Not voting is a vote for Biden. It should not be an option. Catholics must turn out to vote Trump in 2020. When a critical mass of judges have been appointed, the tide will turn on abortion and the other issues. Ave Maria was sung at the White House the other day. President Trump is the First President to personally address the March for Life, with VP Mike Pence joining in from the Vatican. President Trump's administration has been pro-life, pro-Christian, even pro-Catholic. President Trump richly deserves 4 more years. With the radical left supporting looting and rioting, it becomes even more of an obligation to support President Trump to avoid utter destruction.
Let's say Trump is elected and very little changes in the next 4 years (again).  Then what? 
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on September 15, 2020, 04:40:06 PM
And those of us who end up deciding to do differently will feel the same way about their consciences.  If you truly believe that it is up to God to judge, then perhaps you should stop wagging your finger at those who think differently than you about this election.  But I fully expect that, if Trump loses the election, you and those like you will blame the rest for not voting for him.  
Yes I will.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on September 15, 2020, 04:42:21 PM
Let's say Trump is elected and very little changes in the next 4 years (again).  Then what?
At least it's not biden and the commies.
think about life with him and kamala and aoc and hilliary and the rest of the scumbag, commie antiamerican pos running the show for the next four years.
then what?
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: 2Vermont on September 15, 2020, 05:01:07 PM
Yes I will.
Well, at least you're an honest hypocrite.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on September 15, 2020, 07:19:52 PM
Well, at least you're an honest hypocrite.
Nah, I'm just honest.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on September 26, 2020, 07:21:30 AM
Voris couldn't put it any more plainly. This is not about Trump, it's about our very survival.

If stupid and the black woman win, THEY ARE coming for YOU. It's that simple.

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Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on September 26, 2020, 07:22:10 AM










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The Vortex — Not Voting for Trump
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Meg on September 26, 2020, 08:00:43 AM
Let's say Trump is elected and very little changes in the next 4 years (again).  Then what?

It isn't necessarily about things changing for the better. It may be more about things not getting A LOT WORSE.

When the commies took over parts of Europe after WW2, those countries were not prepared for what happened. They didn't think, initially, that such devastation could happen to them.

It's happened many times in history; in the last century, as well as this century providing many examples.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Yeti on September 26, 2020, 08:03:12 AM
There will be famine in this country if Trump loses this election.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: meek on September 26, 2020, 11:20:46 AM
What are you, a prophet?
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Yeti on September 26, 2020, 12:54:16 PM
What are you, a prophet?
You don't need to be a prophet to predict that. Communism always brings famine with it. Look at the Ukraine under Stalin and Venezuela today.
.
To give you a more specific answer, meat companies started closing down their facilities (https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2020-04-16/meat-processor-smithfield-foods-closes-two-more-plants-following-coronavirus-concerns) back in April and May (https://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2020/04/09/coronavirus-latest-major-meat-processors-shutting-down-plants-as-employees-get-sick-with-covid-19/), which began creating nationwide food shortages (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8277063/Americas-meat-crisis-laid-bare-shelves-sit-country.html). Meat was rapidly disappearing from supermarket shelves, until Trump invoked the Defense Protection Act (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2020/06/06/meatpacking-plants-cant-shake-covid-19-cases-despite-trump-order/3137400001/) to force them to stay open. You really want to take a chance on Biden making the same decision, when you and your family could starve to death based on what he decides?
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Prayerful on September 26, 2020, 12:59:56 PM
Zio-Don is a very flawed President expending so much effort of helping Israel diplomatically, acting like its foreign minister at times. Amy Coney Barrett, suggested as the favored SC candidate, seems mixed. Her 'originalism' seems very better than some Biden appointee finding the US Constitution guarantees that little boys should be castrated and raised as girls or 'trans-children.' Yet she does not seem likely someone who could be considered 'pro-life' in any active sense. Pres Trump has taken care from the start to garner sodomite votes (recall him literally waving their foul flag when candidate).

However, not to vote for POTUS puts the senile candidate and his pro-pedo VP candidate Kamala Harris, riding a wave of riots funded and orchestrated by (((certain interests))), who both have straightforwardly promised reinstating a contraception mandate, fiercely pro sodomy and abortion judicial appointments, and will be certainly to use the COVID measures to the utmost. The USCB likely hopes for a Biden victory as it means Harris becoming de-facto and probably soon de-jure President. She was loathe to persecute V2 paedo priests, meaning less money to pay out, and friends out of prison, and should mean even more funding for refugee resettlement they can cream off (POTUS should have stopped it, but here we are). Trump has appointed many, many good judges to lower courts, even if the SC appointees have been very mixed. Remember too that Francis diverted Peter's Pence to Hillary Clinton, and it can be a raring certainly that the diminished Peter's Pence and other funds and all possible help from USCB organisations will be directed to helping Biden. Just because Pres Trump is flawed, there is no possible reason to lie down and see him replaced by who Francis favors, that is, Biden-Harris. Pres Trump is incredibly flawed but here the perfect (not support Trump because of those flaws) is the enemy of good. No one here should ease things for the President Francis wants.  
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: alaric on September 27, 2020, 09:08:28 AM
Do all the naysayers or those who will "sit this one out" still believe that voting for Trump is "mortal sin" and an exercise in futility? Do you still believe that not voting for this president intends to replace the old jewess, pro-infanticide, pro-sodomy hag who just kicked the bucket with an authentic CATHOLIC MOTHER OF 7, conservative and pro-life candidate?

Do you still want to "stay home" and allow the apostate Biden and Killer Kamala in the WH?

Because they will proceed to attack Catholics and Christians in America right after the election, I guarantee it.


Just sit back and watch them attack this nice pro-life, multi-racial Catholic family in these proceedings. This is just a glimpse, they will obviously show their hand and intentions of just what exactly they're capable of once they take office. It will be nothing short of a FATWA against Catholics and Christians in general. Sad par is, a lot of the hierarchy of the Church of Rome is on their side.But, I believe, judgment is coming for them as well.

Donald Trump and the Republicans allowed the Ave Maria to be sung at the RNC. And now, a pro-life, Catholic Mother is being nominated for the most pivotal position in American history. This WILL LITERALLY DECIDE THE FATE OF THE ELECTION.

DT and the Catholics in America have implored Our Lady for assistance. And Our Lady of the Americas, the protector of the unborn HAS ANSWERED. If this is the truth, the commie dems and jew revolutionaries have no idea what their up against.




https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/trump-officially-announces-his-third-scotus-nominee?utm_source=featured&utm_campaign=standard


BREAKING: Trump nominates Catholic mom of 7 Judge Amy Coney Barrett to Supreme Court
The late Justice Antonin Scalia’s 'judicial philosophy is mine, too,' Barrett said.
Sat Sep 26, 2020 - 5:04 pm EST
  • (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/trump-officially-announces-his-third-scotus-nominee?utm_source=featured&utm_campaign=standard#)


Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: josefamenendez on September 27, 2020, 09:35:06 AM
This WILL LITERALLY DECIDE THE FATE OF THE ELECTION.

Literally for sure. It is not unlikely that the winner of the election itself will be determined by the SCOTUS.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: Stubborn on September 27, 2020, 10:13:49 AM
This WILL LITERALLY DECIDE THE FATE OF THE ELECTION.

Literally for sure. It is not unlikely that the winner of the election itself will be determined by the SCOTUS.
I don't know jose, the commies are pulling out all the stops, overtly and blatantly cheating right out in the open - I would love to see them lose by a landslide, but I just don't know. I never thought Obama would ever get elected the first time and was even more positive that he would not get elected the second time.

I'm certainly voting for Trump, but not underestimating the influence that the scum have over the brainwashed masses either.
Title: Re: Mortal Sin Now to Vote Trump?
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 27, 2020, 01:34:12 PM
Do all the naysayers or those who will "sit this one out" still believe that voting for Trump is "mortal sin" and an exercise in futility? Do you still believe that not voting for this president intends to replace the old jewess, pro-infanticide, pro-sodomy hag who just kicked the bucket with an authentic CATHOLIC MOTHER OF 7, conservative and pro-life candidate?

Do you still want to "stay home" and allow the apostate Biden and Killer Kamala in the WH?

Because they will proceed to attack Catholics and Christians in America right after the election, I guarantee it.


Just sit back and watch them attack this nice pro-life, multi-racial Catholic family in these proceedings. This is just a glimpse, they will obviously show their hand and intentions of just what exactly they're capable of once they take office. It will be nothing short of a FATWA against Catholics and Christians in general. Sad par is, a lot of the hierarchy of the Church of Rome is on their side.But, I believe, judgment is coming for them as well.

Donald Trump and the Republicans allowed the Ave Maria to be sung at the RNC. And now, a pro-life, Catholic Mother is being nominated for the most pivotal position in American history. This WILL LITERALLY DECIDE THE FATE OF THE ELECTION.

DT and the Catholics in America have implored Our Lady for assistance. And Our Lady of the Americas, the protector of the unborn HAS ANSWERED. If this is the truth, the commie dems and jew revolutionaries have no idea what their up against.




https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/trump-officially-announces-his-third-scotus-nominee?utm_source=featured&utm_campaign=standard


BREAKING: Trump nominates Catholic mom of 7 Judge Amy Coney Barrett to Supreme Court
The late Justice Antonin Scalia’s 'judicial philosophy is mine, too,' Barrett said.
Sat Sep 26, 2020 - 5:04 pm EST
  • (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/trump-officially-announces-his-third-scotus-nominee?utm_source=featured&utm_campaign=standard#)

I'm voting for Trump, but I understand why some people might not want to.  But the accusation of mortal sin is ridiculous, on either side.