Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Morality of digital piracy  (Read 2654 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ServusInutilisDomini

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 529
  • Reputation: +249/-87
  • Gender: Male
  • O sacrum convivum... https://youtu.be/-WCicnX6pN8
Re: Morality of digital piracy
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2022, 12:40:08 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I found an avatar for you: ;)


    Seriously though, I would be more concerned about the content of the movies watched. I don't think any financial restitution would be called for unless you were the one selling the pirated films and it involved a serious amount of money.
    No worries there anymore. I don't watch any movie unless it is certainly clean.

    However, I am a bit worried regarding the restitution for piracy, I have been listening to the Cure d'Ars and he was pretty strict about it :/ , I will be asking a priest when I get to one certainly.


    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 529
    • Reputation: +249/-87
    • Gender: Male
    • O sacrum convivum... https://youtu.be/-WCicnX6pN8
    Re: Morality of digital piracy
    « Reply #16 on: June 30, 2022, 12:42:01 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes. 

    My soul is non-physical but it is my property.

    My tax return, on my computer, is my property.

    I haven't looked at the library subforum, so I can't really comment on that but if books are out of print, which so many pre-VII books are, then a digital copy of them is completely fine.
    It is clear than that something non-physical can be property.

    I have seen relatively new and still in print books myself.


    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4452
    • Reputation: +5061/-436
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Morality of digital piracy
    « Reply #17 on: June 30, 2022, 12:51:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes. 

    My soul is non-physical but it is my property.

    My tax return, on my computer, is my property.

    I haven't looked at the library subforum, so I can't really comment on that but if books are out of print, which so many pre-VII books are, then a digital copy of them is completely fine.
    .
    Your soul (and body) IS you. Not something you own. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline epiphany

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3542
    • Reputation: +1097/-875
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Morality of digital piracy
    « Reply #18 on: June 30, 2022, 12:58:19 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • .
    Your soul (and body) IS you. Not something you own.
    I stand corrected.
    It was a poor example.  Thank you.

    Offline bodeens

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1514
    • Reputation: +803/-159
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Morality of digital piracy
    « Reply #19 on: June 30, 2022, 01:02:15 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Worth noting old religious texts were before the net, I imagine non public domain authors/priests would love to have their works spread wide and far.

    St Alphonsus would have done Q&As if the internet existed at the time and would have certainly answered emails. Spiritual/religious texts are by far and away not commercial products. Archive.org and LibriVox are your friends :smirk:

    For anyone after the net got big... Pay up :)
    Regard all of my posts as unfounded slander, heresy, theologically specious etc
    I accept Church teaching on Implicit Baptism of Desire.
    Francis is Pope.
    NO is a good Mass.
    Not an ironic sig.


    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4452
    • Reputation: +5061/-436
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Morality of digital piracy
    « Reply #20 on: June 30, 2022, 01:21:01 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I stand corrected.
    It was a poor example.  Thank you.
    I know that was only one example you gave. With regard to the other (tax return), I would concede that a physical copy of a tax return is eligible for ownership, just as any book would be. 

    But when digitized, all you have is the information itself. You certainly don't own the information, even if you have a certain interest in it (which you certainly do).

    I continue to maintain that intellectual property doesn't exist. I don't necessarily think this means absolutely anything goes, but I definitely would recommend the OP relax and go ahead and read the books he's found without any moral concern. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline epiphany

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3542
    • Reputation: +1097/-875
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Morality of digital piracy
    « Reply #21 on: June 30, 2022, 01:27:00 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I definitely would recommend the OP relax and go ahead and read the books he's found without any moral concern.
    Agreed.

    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 529
    • Reputation: +249/-87
    • Gender: Male
    • O sacrum convivum... https://youtu.be/-WCicnX6pN8
    Re: Morality of digital piracy
    « Reply #22 on: June 30, 2022, 01:51:32 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I know that was only one example you gave. With regard to the other (tax return), I would concede that a physical copy of a tax return is eligible for ownership, just as any book would be.

    But when digitized, all you have is the information itself. You certainly don't own the information, even if you have a certain interest in it (which you certainly do).

    I continue to maintain that intellectual property doesn't exist. I don't necessarily think this means absolutely anything goes, but I definitely would recommend the OP relax and go ahead and read the books he's found without any moral concern.
    The information is stored in a drive just like information is stored in a book. The actual difference is only in ease of reproducibility.

    Regarding the book in question, Who Shall Ascend, I will not be reading it because I believe it could be theft to do so.


    Offline Emile

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2166
    • Reputation: +1511/-85
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Morality of digital piracy
    « Reply #23 on: June 30, 2022, 01:55:18 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I continue to maintain that intellectual property doesn't exist. I don't necessarily think this means absolutely anything goes,...
    I'm interested in your thoughts about intellectual property, M.

    Using books as an example, usually the fundamental reason that we buy a book is for the contents, what the author can teach us, not the paper, glue, and ink (though, of course, the materials are a component of the price). What we are really paying for is a service rendered. We are paying the author for his expertise the same as we do a skilled doctor, lawyer, mechanic, plumber, etc.

    Patience is a conquering virtue. The learned say that, if it not desert you, It vanquishes what force can never reach; Why answer back at every angry speech? No, learn forbearance or, I'll tell you what, You will be taught it, whether you will or not.
    -Geoffrey Chaucer

    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 529
    • Reputation: +249/-87
    • Gender: Male
    • O sacrum convivum... https://youtu.be/-WCicnX6pN8
    Re: Morality of digital piracy
    « Reply #24 on: June 30, 2022, 02:00:05 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I'm interested in your thoughts about intellectual property, M.

    Using books as an example, usually the fundamental reason that we buy a book is for the contents, what the author can teach us, not the paper, glue, and ink (though, of course, the materials are a component of the price). What we are really paying for is a service rendered. We are paying the author for his expertise the same as we do a skilled doctor, lawyer, mechanic, plumber, etc.
    Exactly, I think the physical aspect of property is largely irrelevant, what counts is that you defraud someone of deserved pay for their labour.

    Offline epiphany

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3542
    • Reputation: +1097/-875
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Morality of digital piracy
    « Reply #25 on: June 30, 2022, 03:20:15 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The information is stored in a drive just like information is stored in a book. The actual difference is only in ease of reproducibility.

    Regarding the book in question, Who Shall Ascend, I will not be reading it because I believe it could be theft to do so.
    Why not contact the brother of the author and ask him?
    If he is still alive, he attends mass at Our Lady of the Pillar in KY:
    https://olpchapel.org/contact/

    I knew him well and I am certain he would rather have people read the book than have to worry about paying for it.


    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4452
    • Reputation: +5061/-436
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Morality of digital piracy
    « Reply #26 on: June 30, 2022, 04:05:08 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I'm interested in your thoughts about intellectual property, M.

    Using books as an example, usually the fundamental reason that we buy a book is for the contents, what the author can teach us, not the paper, glue, and ink (though, of course, the materials are a component of the price). What we are really paying for is a service rendered. We are paying the author for his expertise the same as we do a skilled doctor, lawyer, mechanic, plumber, etc.
    .
    There are a lot of related, sometimes overlapping pieces in a discussion like this. Intellectual property (specifically) is what I object to, because intellectual property is a concept based on ownership of ideas straight up. I can go into greater detail why, if you have more questions or objections, but for now I will just put it simply: there is nothing new under the Sun, and all truth is God's truth. Who dare presumes to own it? 
    .
    Copyright is not the same as intellectual property (necessarily). Copyright simply gives a publisher a temporary right to monetize a particular composition under certain conditions. Copyright is often exploitative, but I don't object to it in principle. Same with patents. 
    .
    I do not have a problem with the idea of mental labor, not a problem with compensating people for mental labor. But never as the owner of intellectual property. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41908
    • Reputation: +23945/-4345
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Morality of digital piracy
    « Reply #27 on: July 01, 2022, 01:16:34 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • I disagree and do believe there's such a thing as Intellectual Property.  You own it in the sense that you have the right to control its use.  If I spend 1,000s of hours researching a subject, I have a right to control how these products of my labor are used.  Someone anonymous crank shouldn't be allowed to take all the output of this effort, print it in a book, and then sell it.

    Offline SimpleMan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4383
    • Reputation: +1629/-194
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Morality of digital piracy
    « Reply #28 on: July 01, 2022, 02:37:28 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Some thoughts on a topic that has come to bear in my own life, and that is discussed in this thread:

    First, if you buy a book second-hand (Goodwill, used bookstore, etc.), the author has already been paid for the book, so you do the author no injustice.  Indeed, I have heard of people who do not wish to enrich the author of a bad book, but still need to use the book for legitimate research purposes or some similar reason, deliberately seeking to buy it second-hand, so they will not enrich the author.

    Downloading the copy of something I already own, either first purchase or second-hand, also seems to pose no injustice.  I am merely converting it into a format that is easier to use.  For instance, we are reading Tolkien's The Hobbit in homeschool literature class.  My son has a new paper copy from a retail bookstore, and I have a cheap second-hand paperback version for my own use.  However, many evenings, I prefer to be able to read it on my computer, so I downloaded a free copy from a high school English honors program online.  Tolkien's estate has suffered no injustice.

    A book that is out of print also seems to be fair game for copying or downloading.  If it is out of print, then the author has been enriched all that he is ever going to be enriched.  If he wants more people to pay for rights to read the book, then he needs to arrange for more copies to be published.

    Works in the public domain are entirely fair game.

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13825
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Morality of digital piracy
    « Reply #29 on: July 02, 2022, 04:32:27 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Regarding the book in question, Who Shall Ascend, I will not be reading it because I believe it could be theft to do so.
    I have posted that book and other links from it's author many times, I know the person in charge of sales for that book and you'll have to take my word for it that he is definitely well aware of my posting it over the years, if it was theft it would be on his say so and I would not be posting it.

    If you want the actual book though, you have to order it.

    Read it. I attached it to this post again.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse