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Author Topic: Moral Certitude of Someone Being in Mortal Sin  (Read 1560 times)

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Offline Ecclesia Militans

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Moral Certitude of Someone Being in Mortal Sin
« on: May 25, 2014, 06:47:30 PM »
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    • A few years ago I asked two SSPX priests if one can have a moral certitude that another is in a state of mortal sin.  Both priests replied in the negative.  Do you agree based on your knowledge of Catholic moral theology?
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Moral Certitude of Someone Being in Mortal Sin
    « Reply #1 on: May 25, 2014, 06:55:58 PM »
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    • Not normally, no.  Not even the Church judges the internal forum.  
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    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Nadir

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    Moral Certitude of Someone Being in Mortal Sin
    « Reply #2 on: May 25, 2014, 07:19:18 PM »
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    • There are a few great saints who could read souls, but not generally speaking.
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    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
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    Offline Sigismund

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    Moral Certitude of Someone Being in Mortal Sin
    « Reply #3 on: May 25, 2014, 09:12:28 PM »
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    • Unless you are Padre Pio, no.
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    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    Moral Certitude of Someone Being in Mortal Sin
    « Reply #4 on: May 26, 2014, 06:31:02 AM »
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    • Even if you know the person really really well?
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    Offline Zeitun

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    Moral Certitude of Someone Being in Mortal Sin
    « Reply #5 on: May 26, 2014, 09:40:38 AM »
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    • I think wives can know when their husband has sinned in certain ways but I don't know if that fulfills the criteria for moral certitude.

    What if you witness the person's sin or even participate?
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Moral Certitude of Someone Being in Mortal Sin
    « Reply #6 on: May 26, 2014, 10:36:20 AM »
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    • EM asked if one can be morally certain about the state of one's soul.  That's entirely different from being morally certain whether or not there is grave matter in a given action or inaction.
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    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    Moral Certitude of Someone Being in Mortal Sin
    « Reply #7 on: May 26, 2014, 04:03:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    EM asked if one can be morally certain about the state of one's soul.  That's entirely different from being morally certain whether or not there is grave matter in a given action or inaction.

    Let me rephrase:

    Can one have moral certitude that another person committed a grave sin (in any particular incident) and is subjectively guilty before God?
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    Offline Nadir

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    Moral Certitude of Someone Being in Mortal Sin
    « Reply #8 on: May 26, 2014, 05:05:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
    A few years ago I asked two SSPX priests if one can have a moral certitude that another is in a state of mortal sin.  Both priests replied in the negative.  Do you agree based on your knowledge of Catholic moral theology?
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    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Moral Certitude of Someone Being in Mortal Sin
    « Reply #9 on: May 26, 2014, 05:35:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    EM asked if one can be morally certain about the state of one's soul.  That's entirely different from being morally certain whether or not there is grave matter in a given action or inaction.

    Let me rephrase:

    Can one have moral certitude that another person committed a grave sin (in any particular incident) and is subjectively guilty before God?


    Moral certainty about the grave matter is achievable.

    For what purpose would one need or require moral certainty about another's guilt before God?  It seems to me that if you have good reason to suspect that someone is in mortal sin, you are justified in rebuking them or in advising them.  Moral certainty that one is in mortal sin is not required to rebuke them if they've transgressed the moral law in the external forum.
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    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    Moral Certitude of Someone Being in Mortal Sin
    « Reply #10 on: May 26, 2014, 06:41:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Moral certainty about the grave matter is achievable.

    For what purpose would one need or require moral certainty about another's guilt before God?  It seems to me that if you have good reason to suspect that someone is in mortal sin, you are justified in rebuking them or in advising them.  Moral certainty that one is in mortal sin is not required to rebuke them if they've transgressed the moral law in the external forum.

    I think it gives more force to a rebuke if you could lawfully judge that you have moral certitude that they are guilty before God.  
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Moral Certitude of Someone Being in Mortal Sin
    « Reply #11 on: May 26, 2014, 06:52:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Moral certainty about the grave matter is achievable.

    For what purpose would one need or require moral certainty about another's guilt before God?  It seems to me that if you have good reason to suspect that someone is in mortal sin, you are justified in rebuking them or in advising them.  Moral certainty that one is in mortal sin is not required to rebuke them if they've transgressed the moral law in the external forum.

    I think it gives more force to a rebuke if you could lawfully judge that you have moral certitude that they are guilty before God.  


    You can lawfully express a concern that they are guilty before God without claiming it to be a fact.  A person of good will won't refuse your rebuke if you're not morally certain about whether they're guilty before God.  
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    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    Moral Certitude of Someone Being in Mortal Sin
    « Reply #12 on: May 26, 2014, 07:02:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Moral certainty about the grave matter is achievable.

    For what purpose would one need or require moral certainty about another's guilt before God?  It seems to me that if you have good reason to suspect that someone is in mortal sin, you are justified in rebuking them or in advising them.  Moral certainty that one is in mortal sin is not required to rebuke them if they've transgressed the moral law in the external forum.

    I think it gives more force to a rebuke if you could lawfully judge that you have moral certitude that they are guilty before God.  


    You can lawfully express a concern that they are guilty before God without claiming it to be a fact.  A person of good will won't refuse your rebuke if you're not morally certain about whether they're guilty before God.  

    Given my clarification, can we have ever moral certitude?  Yes or no?
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Moral Certitude of Someone Being in Mortal Sin
    « Reply #13 on: May 26, 2014, 07:03:35 PM »
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    • I highly doubt it.

    If an instance existed, this is definitely not it.  If you were morally certain of it, you wouldn't need to ask.

    But again, don't let that keep you from rebuking someone who needs to be rebuked.
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    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    Moral Certitude of Someone Being in Mortal Sin
    « Reply #14 on: May 26, 2014, 07:32:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    I highly doubt it.

    If an instance existed, this is definitely not it.  If you were morally certain of it, you wouldn't need to ask.

    But again, don't let that keep you from rebuking someone who needs to be rebuked.

    Sorry, but what instance are you referring to?
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