Author Topic: Modesty in dress changes with the times? (Read 6364 times)

Disputaciones · « **Reply #15 on:** August 31, 2015, 09:17:16 PM »

Quote from: shin

Moral theology books are one of the places the devil tries to justify sins in -- if he can get it in there..

You said there are all sorts of horrors in moral theology books. I expected you to give at least a couple of verifiable examples, but you haven't yet.

That's a serious charge you're making, do you know that?

shin · « **Reply #16 on:** August 31, 2015, 09:29:18 PM »

Serious charges? No simple matters of fact easily verifiable if you actually read moral theology books in English, where things are quite in a tragic situation.

I feel no onus to do your reading for you when you could easily do it yourself and anyone interested could as well.

Modernists love to praise each other and build up each other, and it's just normal for books to be full of self-praise in general.

A praises B, B praises C, C praises A, and the holy and devout are left out.

Disputaciones · « **Reply #17 on:** August 31, 2015, 09:47:35 PM »

Quote from: shin

Serious charges? No simple matters of fact easily verifiable if you actually read moral theology books in English, where things are quite in a tragic situation.

I feel no onus to do your reading for you when you could easily do it yourself and anyone interested could as well.

Modernists love to praise each other and build up each other, and it's just normal for books to be full of self-praise in general.

A praises B, B praises C, C praises A, and the holy and devout are left out.

You were the one who said "There are all sorts of horrors in moral theology books." I ask you to give an example and you tell me to go look it up myself.

Are you for real?

Give just one example. Shouldn't be that hard with "all sorts of horrors" out there.

shin · « **Reply #18 on:** August 31, 2015, 09:52:28 PM »

Found three just looking up at them, then put them aside.

However you seem to think I'm here to debate you rather than help you out. I tried to do the latter, not spend time on the former.

I don't like reading through such garbage.

Courtesy is not just a word Disputaciones.

Disputaciones · « **Reply #19 on:** August 31, 2015, 10:14:58 PM »

Quote from: shin

Found three just looking up at them, then put them aside.

However you seem to think I'm here to debate you rather than help you out. I tried to do the latter, not spend time on the former.

I don't like reading through such garbage.

Courtesy is not just a word Disputaciones.

You should take your own advice. The first thing I asked related to the moral theology books was "Like what?" to which you gave no answer.

You consider that a formal debate challenge?

For the record I had no intentions to debate. I kept asking you to show something because I'm sincerely interested and you kept getting more aggressive.

RomanCatholic1953 · « **Reply #20 on:** August 31, 2015, 10:16:11 PM »

Quote from: shin

'Beyond fashion and its demands, there are higher and more pressing laws, principles superior to fashion, and unchangeable, which under no circuмstances can be sacrificed to the whim of pleasure or fancy, and before which must bow the fleeting omnipotence of fashion.

These principles have been proclaimed by God, by the Church, by the Saints, by reason, by Christian morality.'

Pope Pius XII

'Fashions that will greatly offend Our Lord will appear. People who follow God should not follow fashions. The Church has no fashions. Our Lord was always the same.'

Bl. Jacinta Marto of Fatima, age 9, from her last words

'We ought to make no account of an immodest person, notwithstanding that he may possess other virtues.'

St. Philip Neri

Quotations on Modesty and Purity

Please reference your quote. Blessed Jacinta Marto of Fatima never said
such a thing. She said just the opposite.

RomanCatholic1953 · « **Reply #21 on:** August 31, 2015, 10:20:14 PM »

Here is a view of a Los Angeles street in the 1950's. A woman in dark
hair and long dress that covers the arms boarding a trolley.

shin · « **Reply #22 on:** August 31, 2015, 10:25:19 PM »

Type "Fashions that will greatly offend Our Lord" into a decent search engine, you'll find numerous websites, which cite numerous different books.

Disputaciones · « **Reply #23 on:** August 31, 2015, 10:58:24 PM »

Quote from: shin

Type "Fashions that will greatly offend Our Lord" into a decent search engine, you'll find numerous websites, which cite numerous different books.

I was also being honest with the Cardinal Vicar of Pius XII quote. Have you ever verified it?

Why don't you post the 3 examples you say you found?

Disputaciones · « **Reply #24 on:** August 31, 2015, 11:00:27 PM »

Quote from: RomanCatholic1953

Here is a view of a Los Angeles street in the 1950's. A woman in dark
hair and long dress that covers the arms boarding a trolley.

The question is, are the standards all should follow today the same that were present when Pius XII died?

Wouldn't that mean no man can wear jeans?

clare · « **Reply #25 on:** September 01, 2015, 05:44:43 AM »

Quote from: RomanCatholic1953

Quote from: shin
'Fashions that will greatly offend Our Lord will appear. People who follow God should not follow fashions. The Church has no fashions. Our Lord was always the same.'

Bl. Jacinta Marto of Fatima, age 9, from her last words

Please reference your quote. Blessed Jacinta Marto of Fatima never said
such a thing. She said just the opposite.

Really? What did she say then?

RomanCatholic1953 · « **Reply #26 on:** September 01, 2015, 09:33:50 AM »

Quote from: clare

Quote from: RomanCatholic1953
Quote from: shin
'Fashions that will greatly offend Our Lord will appear. People who follow God should not follow fashions. The Church has no fashions. Our Lord was always the same.'

Bl. Jacinta Marto of Fatima, age 9, from her last words

Please reference your quote. Blessed Jacinta Marto of Fatima never said
such a thing. She said just the opposite.

Really? What did she say then?

I must apologize. I was reading the quote above St. Philip Neri. In
which it is surprise.
I also want a reference to prove that St. Philip Neri actually wrote
that.
A person addicted to a immoral fashions cannot live a virtuous life.
(My Quote).

clare · « **Reply #27 on:** September 01, 2015, 10:06:51 AM »

Quote from: RomanCatholic1953

Quote from: clare
Quote from: RomanCatholic1953
Quote from: shin
'Fashions that will greatly offend Our Lord will appear. People who follow God should not follow fashions. The Church has no fashions. Our Lord was always the same.'

Bl. Jacinta Marto of Fatima, age 9, from her last words

Please reference your quote. Blessed Jacinta Marto of Fatima never said
such a thing. She said just the opposite.

Really? What did she say then?

I must apologize. I was reading the quote above St. Philip Neri. In
which it is surprise.
I also want a reference to prove that St. Philip Neri actually wrote
that.
A person addicted to a immoral fashions cannot live a virtuous life.
(My Quote).

So this is the quote in question then?

Quote

'We ought to make no account of an immodest person, notwithstanding that he may possess other virtues.'

St. Philip Neri

It's his Maxim for December 6th.

clare · « **Reply #28 on:** September 01, 2015, 10:34:56 AM »

Anyway, what is modest can vary from time to time and place to place.

Quote from: St Thomas Aquinas

I answer that, It is not in the outward things themselves which man uses, that there is vice, but on the part of man who uses them immoderately. This lack of moderation occurs in two ways. First, in comparison with the customs of those among whom one lives; wherefore Augustine says (Confess. iii, 8): "Those offenses which are contrary to the customs of men, are to be avoided according to the customs generally prevailing, so that a thing agreed upon and confirmed by custom or law of any city or nation may not be violated at the lawless pleasure of any, whether citizen or foreigner. For any part, which harmonizeth not with its whole, is offensive."
...
Reply to Objection 2. Those who are placed in a position of dignity, or again the ministers of the altar, are attired in more costly apparel than others, not for the sake of their own glory, but to indicate the excellence of their office or of the Divine worship: wherefore this is not sinful in them. Hence Augustine says (De Doctr. Christ. iii, 12): "Whoever uses outward things in such a way as to exceed the bounds observed by the good people among whom he dwells, either signifies something by so doing, or is guilty of sin, inasmuch as he uses these things for sensual pleasure or ostentation."

Likewise there may be sin on the part of deficiency: although it is not always a sin to wear coarser clothes than other people. For, if this be done through ostentation or pride, in order to set oneself above others, it is a sin of superstition; whereas, if this be done to tame the flesh, or to humble the spirit, it belongs to the virtue of temperance. Hence Augustine says (De Doctr. Christ. iii, 12): "Whoever uses transitory things with greater restraint than is customary with those among whom he dwells, is either temperate or superstitious."...

Summa Theologica

So, we're meant to fit in. But obviously there are some fashions which will always be unacceptable.

Cantarella · « **Reply #29 on:** September 01, 2015, 11:09:30 AM »

This is an excellent article with pictures on how Catholic women's dress have changed throughout the centuries and clear explanations on why these changes happened, mainly Revolutionary movements such as the Reformation in the XVI century and Feminism in the XX century. Up to the XIV century, virtually all Catholic ladies imitated Our Lady in modesty, as we are called to do regardless of changes in historical periods and emerging fashions of the world. Some extracts:

The Importance of Modesty in Dress:

Quote

As we can see above, the modesty of Catholic women of the first 13 centuries pretty much imitated Our Lady's dress completely, from head to toe. The code during this time was "fashion cater to modesty," not "modesty cater to fashion." We see a change in this trend in the 14th century with the introduction of the Renaissance. Now although the women then did not dress wantonly (see glossary below), their modesty was not the Perfect Model's. Some of them flaunted their hair, while others wore a bit of pompous clothing. Still, none of it outlined or uncovered the sensual areas of the body. Later during the heretical Reformation of the 16th Century, the women of Protestant nations began to expose more than decency allowed of the the upper regions of the body. During the 19th century, contrary to the wide-spread notion that women were modest, women were practically intimidated by the fashion industry, going through extravagant measures into twisting and outlining their figure, to keep up with the latest trend. As a reaction to this being "bottled-up" and confined by clothing, women in the 20th century catered to the flapper craze. This new rebellious fashion freed them from the restrictive hour-glass shape of the "gαy 90's" to the opposite extreme by the clothing being straight, and narrow, making them look boyish. This idea of "breaking free" from the slavery of 19th century pseudo-modesty made women reveal rather than conceal a little more each decade, to the point in which we end up with the scandalous fashions of the modern catholic woman today. Although Catholic women since the Reformation were not as modest as those from the first 1300 years of the Church, they still none the less kept the same standard of decency according to the natural law.

Quote

So what can we gather from all this? That a feminist miscreant desired to wear the other sex's clothes to express a demand for "women's rights" and to spark a rebellion against the traditional mores in decency. Feminists challenged the tradition of the man being the head of the family by wearing his clothes. Later on in the 1930's, the Communists would finalize this revolution in women's clothing. Using gnostic "theology", the communists deemed women nothing more than imperfect men, who in order to be as perfect as men, had to express masculinity and repress their feminine attributes. They made it the ideal fashion, in their propaganda, that women, in order to express true equality with men in all things, would also have to wear the masculine clothing for men only, called Pants. So we can see that this custom of women wearing pants is nothing more than a feminist tradition. It certainly does not come from the long held decency code passed down from Catholic woman to Catholic woman throughout the 19 centuries of the Church's influence on society.