Matthew did something.  As I was about to post awhile ago the screen went blank & it said error.  I lost my post.  I left & when I came back the #'s were all changed & all the ignores were gone.

So as not to add yet another topic of conversation to this thread, you can see here:

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/CathInfo-hosting-problems

 :smile:

Quote from: PenitentWoman

Quote from: Loriann

Quote from: PenitentWoman

Loriann, first, thank you for your post to me.   I'm sorry your original one was eaten.

Quote from: Loriann

Men need to grow up.  The image of their wife and the blessed mother should be able to obviate all other things. Immoral dressing is immoral. but so is acting upon it by the guy--this post makes it sound like men are just barn animals with no control.

On this comment, I have to say I think you're over simplifying the issue. In some situations men are responsible for the company they keep and the places they frequent.  If you go to a bar that you know will have servers in immodest dress, well--avoiding that establishment is good idea.   I don't think that is what Marcelino is talking about though.  

If you go to a shopping mall that has Aerie, Victorias Secret, or Abercrombie, you simply cannot avoid being exposed to gigantic images of nearly nude models.  It's sad.  Custody of the eyes is important, but would be hard for anyone to completely miss it.
 
There are many other situations where people can't control what they are exposed to. The park, the beach, even the library.  Immodesty is an accepted norm.  I was very much a "good girl" in high school and I am ashamed of the way I dressed. In my mind it was preppy and cute...in reality...not so much.

 When I first really thought about modesty it was because a priest brought it up to me.  I was always dressed fine for mass, but one time I had catechism class and didn't choose wisely. After the class we were talking and he presented the idea that maybe my disastrous dating history (inability to find a guy who didn't expect intimacy right away) had something to do with the type of man I was attracting in the first place. It was embarrassing and sort of offensive, but sadly I knew exactly why it was being brought up at this moment.  

 He later gave me some things to read and one of them talked about how the person who administers the poison, might actually be even more at fault than the one who drinks it.  While modesty has been a process, I really did start to think about it differently right from that statement.  I came to understand it even more after coming on this board and realizing that there really are guys who appreciate purity.  It was a sad but important discovery. It came a little too late for me in some ways, but it is hard to have complete "regret" when you have a child.  

I think the disconnect might be in the idea of "acting upon it"  sin can be as simple as an impure thought.  I don't envy men that have to be exposed to immodesty against their will all.the.time. and then have to keep from impure thoughts.

Both men and women need to be chaste and resist.

The point was that for man to resist impure thoughts, when constantly bombarded with impure images, is a major challenge and isn't necessarily a matter of growing up.  Do you not agree that the one who serves the poison is sinning herself BECAUSE she creates a strong occasion of sin for another?  I'm certain she has to answer to the Lord for not just her own sins, but at least partially for any he commits as a result.

I am saying that the men who say her dress made me do it and blame the woman need to look at themselves.

It isn't "all or nothing."  

Quote from: Traditional Guy 20

Quote from: Sigismund

And you still haven't answered my question.  Can you point to a single instance in which i have said that sɛҳuąƖ immorality by women is okay?  

It is clear you are not gong to, becasue you have made no such statement, and that you lack the integrity to acknowledge what may have been nothing more than a simple mistake. In a thread this size, it would be easy to forget who said what, and I have never imputed base motives to this.  But, since you seem to want to prattle on about male strength rather than demonstrating it, you can talk to yourself.

I already told you about your statement about at the end of the day the man is at fault, even though the women will wear provocative clothing to drag a man down to his base instincts, so to speak. Are you going to acknowledge Jєωιѕн women started feminism?

I understand what you said.  I am asking you to point out where I said that sɛҳuąƖ immorality on the part of women is okay.  

Did Jєωιѕн women start feminism?  Perhaps. I am hardly an expert on the subject.  I am sure some of the women who started feminism, whatever that means historically, were Jєωιѕн.  

Apparently, jews have always been at the vanguard of revolution in western civilization, at least for the last 2000 years or so.  

Other people have criticised Thorn's continued bullying of PW:

Thorn you're really obsessed with PW and "the guys' responses." Had the women not been so insulting to the men on here perhaps it wouldn't have gotten this personal. So it's funny that when "the girls" get personal by calling the guys strange and abnormal that's okay but when "the guys" do it suddenly it's an insult and all the women on here call foul…

Yes, exactly. Well said.
Well done, Trad Guy.

Quote from: Thorn

PW, you said that the term 'illegitimate child' was very hurtful to you. No one is using that term now, out of respect I would image, & now you're calling her that??!!!   Something is not right here.  Usually mothers don't talk that way, but I guess this is a forum so that's different?

It's all about the context, Thorn. The statement can be true and yet hard to "swallow" when said by someone else. And so, a kind remark from another wouldn't include the phrase unless it was necessary to do so.

She's obviously not going to be offended by stating the fact herself. In this case, to dramatically show the disparity between her situation and the ideals mentioned in the sermon, the phrase was a useful tool and softening it would not been as effective in expressing her thoughts.

As the person referred to cannot read, I'm sure she won't be offended.

PS. If you didn't want public input, a PM would have been a better choice.  

Dear Mater, thank you for saying that. It needed to be said. And you said it.
Thank you, Mater.

Stop with your fake outrage already. It's clear you're just trying to bully her. You and the rest of your Frankfurtian Marxoid cultists.

There's nothing honest or sincere about you. You're just an obnoxious and aggressive Feminist bully.

For the sake of the world and its salvation, I can't wait until old Feminists like you finally die so you can stop corrupting younger women.

Very good, forthright words.
You spoke well, PaxRomanum.

These three posters have all spoken well.

This thread proves some very important points:

Feminists bully good Catholic women.
Because Feminism is anti-Catholic, and Feminism is from the devil.

Dear God- dba SedeCatholic:  I say this because I see you're reading minds again by "explaining Thorn's motives".  Grand of you.

No one is bullying PW.
You are bullying me.
PW didn't answer when I asked her outright if she was being bullied.
I took that to mean that she wasn't.
It took 3 tries to get an answer from her about the bullying directed at me.
Her non-answer answer was "If I FELT like I was...., all should be acting civilly."
It doesn't matter how I FELT.  Was I or wasn't I being attacked by her supporters?
She's a master at seeming to answer a question by really not.

Yes, Sede, I've been a thorn in the side of a few politicians, priests, nuns, newspaper & magazine editors- both secular & religious, teachers & school board members, among others.   I've had my share of victories, too.
 It's a dirty (& mostly thankless) job, but somebody's got to do it.  Better to be pricked in this life than in the next.  Maybe God was pleased with my offer to give my life in the cloister, but wanted me in the world instead, to be a thorn in the side of some people who need a poke or 2. I know. It hurts, but sometimes truth hurts & is good for you. Also I'm an equal opportunity thorn.

Now, Sede, since you know sooo much, I have a question for you.  Let me give you the scenerio first.  btw - I really, really do want an answer, please.

A girl is raised a trad Catholic & her parents sheltered her while she was growing up.  No TV in the home till hi school or thereabouts & no sitting for hrs in front of it.  Rarely went to movies & those were carefully chosen.  Now the next part you're not going to agree with so please don't focus on that in order to answer the question.  For various reasons, she did go out in the world (that's the part you're not going to like but try to understand that there were reasons) but was still a bit sheltered as she was an elementary teacher surronded by kids & older women.  She didn't have much of a social life as she poured herself into her work, & there was plenty of it!   All her parents, aunts & uncles & everyone she had ever associated with were good decent people.  There was never any drama.  She met a man who could charm the feathers off a goose & she was the goose.  She was naive & thought," why would he lie to me?  He says he loves me so why would anyone that loved me lie?

They married.  After several children, it became clear that he wasn't quite what he had portrayed himself.  She denied him nothing, was fit even after several children, made some of the children's clothes & even some of her dresses, kept the house neat & clean, taught the children (who were always quiet & respectful),
etc., etc., .  He was a cop & worked nites.  He was stressed & passed over for promotions.  He couldn't very well take out his frustrations on the captain so he would come home & take it out on her.  She honestly tried everything.  If she tried to comfort him, he'd fling her away,  If she then tried to lighten the mood the next time it happened, he accused her of making light of a serious situation. etc.  His moods got darker & darker.  She was greatly concerned.  He pulled a gun a her.  One nite he threw her out of the house.  On & on.  She sought advice.
She left him (to make a looong story short.) & went into hiding.  She got a divorce & spent the rest of her life caring for the children & working nites so she could be home during the day.  She never dated & never married.  He went on to marry 3 more times & all 3 ended in divorce.  She & the lawyer who handled the divorce believed that he was indeed dangerous & could kill her & the kids & then probably kill himself if she stayed.  Years later she got his psych report & it indeed was scary.  The children grew up to be all happy, healthy productive human beings.  To this day she believes that she did the right thing by leaving.

Now for the question:  Are you posting that the Catholic Church would have required her to stay with him?  

Thorn, whenever you pick on PenitentWoman, I intend to be ready to  publicly rebuke you.

I will not let you bully her, so all you can do now is damage your own reputation even further.

You posted some nonsense about your divorce, and asked me to comment on it.
I have no interest in your farcical private life.
Especially not in your highly unreliable, untrustworthy version of what happened.
Your own account of your own divorce is obviously going to be very untrustworthy.

The only relevance that your divorce has to this, is that it explains your astonishing level of bitterness and sadism towards this young girl.

My concern here is with your cruelty.

Thorn, you cannot win this.

You are going to leave PenitentWoman alone.

So I suggest that you simply accept that reality.

Whenever you sink your claws into her, expect a public rebuke from me.

It will be a source of shame to you.

Then, like the Pavlov dog thing, you will gradually realize that bullying PW causes you more suffering than it causes her.

Simply end this, Thorn.

I have no wish to quarrel with you.

But you are going to leave this young Catholic lady alone.

So do it voluntarily.

That is best for you.

But if your love of sadism is too strong for you to give up the bullying, then I will feel free to criticize you.

There is a simple solution to this, Thorn.

Never speak to PW again.
Never criticize PW again.

Then this stops.

Thorn, it is up to you. The decision is yours.