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Offline Matthew

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Modern world Feminism hard on postpartum mothers
« on: October 30, 2014, 04:13:59 AM »
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  • Read this article if you want, but PLEASE make sure to read my post after it -- it's why I posted it; a commentary on some knuckle-dragging Trads!

    Why Are America’s Postpartum Practices So Rough on New Mothers?

    America is hyperfocused on mothers bouncing immediately back after childbirth, yet most other cultures allow for an extended period of pampering and rest. Hillary Brenhouse on why U.S. moms are missing out.
    Some hundreds of years ago, Colonial Americans thought it fit for a woman who had just given birth to keep to her bed for three or four or more weeks. For the length of the “lying in” period, as it was called, the new mother would rest, regain her strength, and bond with the baby as her womanly attendants kept up the household. Several of these ladies would be relatives, and others not; none were paid, and all expected to be similarly cared for following their own deliveries. Then, in the 19th century, the last free land was settled, and everyone retired to her own room. As Richard and Dorothy Wertz write in Lying-In: A History of Childbirth in America, “The era of social childbirth, with its volunteer woman-to-woman help, passed with the disappearance of the American frontier.” The “lie-in” wasn’t adapted or modified. And it certainly wasn’t replaced with anything.

    This country is one of the only utterly lacking in a culture of postpartum care. Some version of the lie-in is still prevalent all over Asia, Africa, the Middle East, and particular parts of Europe; in these places, where women have found the postpartum regimens of their own mothers and grandmothers slightly outdated, they’ve revised them. The U.S. seems only to understand pregnancy as a distinct and fragile state. For the expectant, we issue reams of proscriptions—more than can reasonably be followed. We tell them what to eat and what not to eat. We ask that they visit the doctor regularly and that they not do any strenuous activity. We give them our seats on the bus. Finally, once they’ve actually undergone the physical trauma of it, their bodies thoroughly depleted, we beckon them most immediately to rejoin the rest of us. One New York mother summed up her recent postpartum experience this way: “You’re not hemorrhaging? OK, peace, see you later.”

    The Chinese traditionally adhere to 30 days of restful confinement—another week for a C-section—during which time moms are meant to consume lactation-inducing soups and herbal tonics and abstain from sex and cold water. In Mexico, the ritualized interlude, or the cuarentena, goes for 40 days, or long enough for the womb to return to its place. Balinese women are not allowed to enter the kitchen until the baby’s cord stump has fallen. Dutch maternity nurses make postpartum visits every day for the eight days after childbirth, and in France, as elsewhere, new moms spend nearly a week in hospital. Always, the mothers are educated as they convalesce; they’re taught to breast-feed, to manage baby rashes and bath time and sore nipples. Rarely are they first to respond to the infant’s shrieking. In 2011 I visited a luxury postpartum center in Taipei, where women of means (and who would rather not call on their mothers-in-law, as is custom) spend a month in recovery. When I asked Tsai Ya-hui, who had given birth to her first child three weeks earlier, what she did all day in her high-end suite, she answered: “Internet and sleep. That’s about it.” She looked more refreshed than I did.

    There are elements of these postpartum practices (the consumption of foods rich in iron) that are common-sensical, and there are others (tightly wrapping the belly with a postnatal girdle; consuming distilled rice wine in place of water; extremely limited exposure to the sun in the first month), the usefulness and safety of which are debated by the medical community. But the thing to focus on here is the idea of a culturally recognized and accepted postpartum rest period. With these rituals comes an acknowledgment, familial and federal, that the woman needs relief more at this time than at any other—especially if she has a career to return to—and that it takes weeks, sometimes months, to properly heal from childbirth. An acknowledgement that overexertion after labor could lead to depression, infection, increased uterine bleeding, or prolapse. An acknowledgment that the postpartum stretch shouldn’t feel, as it did for so many of the American women who took part in my informal survey, like one long sleepless night.

    “A culturally accepted postpartum period sends a powerful message that’s not being sent in this country,” said Dr. Margaret Howard, the director of the Day Hospital for Postpartum Depression in Providence, Rhode Island. “American mothers internalize the prevailing attitude—‘I should be able to handle this myself; women have babies every day’—and if they’re not up and functioning, they feel like there’s something wrong with them.” A colleague of Howard’s, the daughter of a pediatrician, brought her prepregnancy jeans to the delivery room, expecting to slip into them once the baby was out.

    I spent part of an afternoon with some new mothers in Park Slope, an affluent Brooklyn neighborhood that is frequently and teasingly associated with over-the-top urban parenting. As a group, they’d received probably the best postpartum care that this country has to offer, which they detailed over the squeals and sighs of their nursing infants. Sophia Sotto had hired a postpartum doula, but didn’t feel comfortable “asking her to do the dishes in the sink.” She remembered: “I still couldn’t manage when to shower, when to eat.” Sarah Hake had an episiotomy and still, like every woman in America, was asked to come in for a 15-minute checkup six weeks after leaving the delivery room. “Six weeks is too late,” she said. The rest murmured their agreement. All had cooked; all had cleaned. Asked Emily Lillywhite, “If you don’t get up and do it, who will?” One woman had taken an especially long walk two days after delivering, because she wanted to “feel normal again.” Most had been afraid to survey the wreck between their legs, and those who did look hadn’t been able to tell if they were healing well or not. “Google became my very good friend,” said Ruth Margolis. “Yes,” Sotto broke in. “Your postpartum support is the Internet.”

    “It took me a good eight to nine weeks to be normal—I mean, physically able to not wear disposable underwear. But you’re supposed to be Facebook-ready two days after labor.”
    I heard stories of women vacuuming upon arriving home after a day and a half in the hospital; of new moms waiting until the six-week checkup to make their postnatal complications known; of visitors turning up and instantly asking for coffee; of lactation consultants who were meant to, but did not, take insurance; of a postpartum doula who, when she was summoned by a mother one month postlabor, said, “You’re too far along to need me.” A popular site that advises women on how to find and work with a baby nurse counsels: “Ask your baby nurse what she likes to eat and stock up at the supermarket.” It is true that hiring a postpartum helper is far less expensive in, say, Hong Kong than in the U.S. But the problem is not one of money. The problem is that no one recognizes the new mother as a recuperating person, and she does not see herself as one. For the mourning or the injured, we will activate a meal tree. For the woman who is torturously fatigued, who has lost one 10th of her body’s blood supply, who can scarcely pee for the stiches running up her perineum, we will not.

    A number of things have changed since the American frontier closed: women work outside the home, and the U.S. is the only industrialized nation not to mandate paid maternal leave; families are geographically scattered; childbirth has become medicalized, and medical treatment, costly. Still, immigrants to the U.S. and their children have found ways to observe a period of postpartum repose. There is, in Flushing, Queens, more than one Chinese confinement center, and the institutions run a fairly brisk business. I met with an Argentine woman, Andreina Botto, who kept some version of the cuarentena for two straight months. A South American nanny looked after her other children and prepared endless batches of fatty soups for Botto to sup. Botto was visited weekly by a Chinese doctor ($150 per rather lengthy visit), and by his instruction stayed in her pajamas most days, made sure to keep warm, and consumed fish oil. She sure didn’t diet; she ate in order to lactate and froze the excess milk.

    If Botto hadn’t been able to afford hired postnatal help, she would have called on a family member. If her relatives had been outside the city and unable to make the trip in, she would have called on a friend. Full-time jobs are no impediment. In her book The Immigrant Advantage, Claudia Kolker visits a new mom, a Mexican woman living in Ohio, whose sister-in-law would come straight from the factory to administer care. For weeks, as the woman relaxed, her sister-in-law barely slept. This kind of arrangement is far from ideal, but, for those who subscribe to a system of postpartum support, the alternative isn’t an option. “In an airplane crash,” Botto said, “you need to put the mask on yourself first, not your kids. Only then can you be a good mother, a good wife. First you need to take care of yourself and recover. It’s key that in this 40 days you heal—it’s not like you can do it later.”

    Put the mask on yourself first? In the States, a woman is looked after, by herself and by others, only so long as her body is a receptacle for the baby. Attention then transfers to the needs of the infant. To ask for respite is to betray not only weakness and helplessness, but selfishness. You should be prepared for the emotional and physical demands of your new motherly role and you should like them, too. “People are always asking, ‘Do you love it? Is it everything you dreamed?’” Brigita Jones, a new mom, told me. “Actually it sucks right now. But other women would be horrified if you said that; even the ones who’ve been through it. I was shredded after giving birth. The hospital flung me out. I had a colicky baby with feeding issues, and I had to take care of myself, which you can’t do when you’re not sleeping. It took me a good eight to nine weeks to be normal—I mean, physically able to not wear disposable underwear. But you’re supposed to be Facebook-ready two days after labor.”

    America might begin by conceding that the postnatal period ought to be a formal, protected, well-monitored term and that any woman who does not adequately and restfully observe it is putting herself and her infant at risk. Increased paid parental leave and insurance policies that include longer hospital stays and regular postnatal visits would be helpful. So would a national discourse that does not stop at postpartum depression, which is the consequence and not the cause. Perhaps if we started talking about the time and energy it actually takes to recuperate from childbirth, women wouldn’t feel the need to return as quickly as possible to “normal.” A number of things have changed since the frontier closed, but the female body is not one of them.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/witw/articles/2013/08/15/america-s-postpartum-practices.html
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    Offline Matthew

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    Modern world Feminism hard on postpartum mothers
    « Reply #1 on: October 30, 2014, 04:16:51 AM »
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  • Here is what someone posted on Facebook after someone posted the article above:


    Quote
    I appreciate this but I get no real rest because my husband isn't able to take off. And he does expect me to clean the clothes fold the laundry vacuum sweep mop and do dishes and nurse the newborn. Because feminism.
    My friends from church come to help and he fusses that I need to carve out more time to do it all myself. My friend from church advocates all of what Jessica says.
    But my dear sweet husband doesn't understand. He means well but he thinks just like that women can do it all even though they need rest. I'm actually 9 weeks postpartum now but the lack of rest in the beginning is still draining me. I am severely sleep deprived and delirious. I can't seem to do it all and all the errands too I felt like a terrible woman that I was weak. I almost passed out dead on the floor like 5xs in the first few weeks because I was dehydrated and hungry and sleep deprived and felt like nobody would ever understand how come I can't do it. I felt horrible like the worlds worst mom. I cried many times because I felt like a failure at life.


    How sad!

    Her husband seems to be a less-than-intelligent, or just mean, knuckle-dragging caveman who vehemently opposes Feminism and seems to be knee-jerking the other direction into some kind of Male Tyranny. He doesn't seem to love his wife at all! It's all about power and domination for him.
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    Offline Tiffany

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    Modern world Feminism hard on postpartum mothers
    « Reply #2 on: October 30, 2014, 09:50:19 AM »
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  • Matthew for many modern day women their first baby is a huge adjustment.. how many women do we know who have their first newborn think they have the only baby that NEVER sleeps  that nobody understands. Just her statement of "and nurse the newborn" shows a lot.


    Offline Tiffany

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    Modern world Feminism hard on postpartum mothers
    « Reply #3 on: October 30, 2014, 10:02:39 AM »
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  • I don't know how accurate her ideas about Colonial America are.  I'm sure things varied. There stories of women being completely alone (and alone then is not alone now - most here could have food delivered if necessary) and dying or having their infants  die because of her poor condition.

    Offline PereJoseph

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    Modern world Feminism hard on postpartum mothers
    « Reply #4 on: October 30, 2014, 03:10:52 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Here is what someone posted on Facebook after someone posted the article above:


    Quote
    I appreciate this but I get no real rest because my husband isn't able to take off. And he does expect me to clean the clothes fold the laundry vacuum sweep mop and do dishes and nurse the newborn. Because feminism.
    My friends from church come to help and he fusses that I need to carve out more time to do it all myself. My friend from church advocates all of what Jessica says.
    But my dear sweet husband doesn't understand. He means well but he thinks just like that women can do it all even though they need rest. I'm actually 9 weeks postpartum now but the lack of rest in the beginning is still draining me. I am severely sleep deprived and delirious. I can't seem to do it all and all the errands too I felt like a terrible woman that I was weak. I almost passed out dead on the floor like 5xs in the first few weeks because I was dehydrated and hungry and sleep deprived and felt like nobody would ever understand how come I can't do it. I felt horrible like the worlds worst mom. I cried many times because I felt like a failure at life.


    How sad!

    Her husband seems to be a less-than-intelligent, or just mean, knuckle-dragging caveman who vehemently opposes Feminism and seems to be knee-jerking the other direction into some kind of Male Tyranny. He doesn't seem to love his wife at all! It's all about power and domination for him.


    Two things.  First, she shouldn't be talking about her husband like that in public, especially to another man.  I understand if she's at her wit's end and is crying for help, but surely there's a better way than, uh, venting about your husband on Facebook in response to an article.  Second, if he "means well," who is to say otherwise ?  Could he have the time to do these things himself ?  We don't know that; most likely he doesn't because he works outside the home.  Could he do them all even if he had the desire ?  He might be bad at a lot of them or not know how in any case.

    Surely there is a better way to help this woman than to encourage her, to re-post her indiscreetly-told story, or to criticise her husband and use his example (only known due to her own criticisms, which come, by the way, from a woman who admits she is rather upset) as a platform for crticising traditional Catholics in the US as a whole.  Perhaps his priest could be encouraged to chat with him and explain these things, or at the very least somebody who he trusts. I assume he strives to do what he thinks is the right thing, as evidenced by his stand against feminism.

    There are so many irregularities in the woman's story; I don't see why she is just taken at her word, given what we know of women and their feelings.  I hope this isn't how somebody would be treated in real life. "Sir, we need to talk.  Your wife was complaining about you to me the other day and I think you're a lowlife. Shame on you !"  I don't think that's the best approach for the long-term success of the family.


    Online MaterDominici

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    Modern world Feminism hard on postpartum mothers
    « Reply #5 on: October 30, 2014, 06:59:31 PM »
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  • Quote from: PereJoseph
    from a woman who admits she is rather upset


    ... and postpartum!


    I wouldn't take what she says as the whole story.
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline Matthew

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    Modern world Feminism hard on postpartum mothers
    « Reply #6 on: October 30, 2014, 07:37:17 PM »
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  • I agree. We're only hearing one side of the story.

    And I don't understand how she could be dehydrated -- how long does it take to grab a glass of water while you clean, cook, use the bathroom, etc.?

    But I also doubt she's a compulsive liar making the whole thing up. Tyrannical "trad" men do exist. They think their wife should be a slave, keeping the house perfectly clean even when she has 3 children under 3 to take care of all day.

    It's not reasonable, but just look at the Trad world -- some men are downright neurotic and obsessive. Especially those with a Melancholic temperament, and/or OCD tendencies. Look at some of the threads on CathInfo and other Trad fora. Look at all the misfits that have been banned for dogmatic home-aloneism and such -- guess what? They still exist out there. Banning them doesn't annihilate them body and soul! And some of them might be married.

    Throw in a crusade against Feminism and some guys WOULD get confused and think they're doing the right thing.

    In other news, failed marriages -- even divorces, adultery, and concubinage -- exist in the world of Tradition.

    Going to a Tridentine Mass once a week doesn't let one escape from all the problems in the modern world.
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    Offline Marlelar

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    Modern world Feminism hard on postpartum mothers
    « Reply #7 on: October 30, 2014, 07:43:13 PM »
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  • But the bottom line is that a new mom is rarely  looked after properly.  Needs would vary from woman to woman some bounce back quickly, others take more time.  Dad has to go back to work so he can't help much either and we no longer have close families where mom, sis, inlaws, friends, pitch in to look after mom.

    Marsha



    Offline procopius

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    Modern world Feminism hard on postpartum mothers
    « Reply #8 on: October 30, 2014, 08:44:09 PM »
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  • I love the confused messages that articles like this send.  Women are strong (as a man), independent (don't need anyone especially a man), but then they are also weak and dependent too.  I've been told women can run marathons after pregnancy myself, but apparently housework is too hard for them.  There's a lot of issues with this article, for starters housework is not as hard or time consuming as it used to be.  Laundry machines, dishwashers, pre-prepared food from grocery stores,  and of course TV babysitters make a stay home mother's life very easy.  Really, it only takes a couple of hours at most per day to complete all needed tasks.  The biggest problem with housewives is boredom, not too much work. Hardly slaves.  Modern women should try being housewives in the 19th century.  Want to feed your family chicken noodle soup?  Go outside kill the chicken, boil and pluck feathers, chop the vegetables yourself, then cook it in a pot.  Also don't forget to wash the clothes by hand and tailor all the rips and lost buttons.  How much you bet that 19th century women (5 + children) complained less about postpartum issues then modern women (1.5+ children).  They couldn't complain, they had no time, the work had to be done.  If a woman was actually sick, then she got help from her mother, or sister, or other relatives and friends.  This postpartum distressed women (from the article) should be complaining about her mother not her husband.  

    Offline Cantarella

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    Modern world Feminism hard on postpartum mothers
    « Reply #9 on: October 30, 2014, 11:44:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: Marlelar
    But the bottom line is that a new mom is rarely  looked after properly.  Needs would vary from woman to woman some bounce back quickly, others take more time.  Dad has to go back to work so he can't help much either and we no longer have close families where mom, sis, inlaws, friends, pitch in to look after mom.

    Marsha



    Perhaps sounds idealistic, but as counter-revolutionaries one of the important things to inculcate in our children is that families and extended families should live close together. Daughters should not be left by themselves, especially as first time mothers, they should have support and company from other women, ideally aunts and grandmothers.  

    American culture is predominantly individualistic and the popular idea that children should be moving out by the age of 16 to make it on their own, hundreds of miles away, it is devastating for family unity. This should be avoided especially for daughters. Ideally daughters should stay home until ready for marriage to make their own home, and not so far away from parents!. That would be an ideal Catholic society. There is a widespread mistaken idea of independence in this country and young mothers nowadays (particularly raised by the feminists) are specially vulnerable to solitude and isolation.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline tdrev123

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    Modern world Feminism hard on postpartum mothers
    « Reply #10 on: October 31, 2014, 01:56:08 AM »
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  • Quote from: procopius
    I love the confused messages that articles like this send.  Women are strong (as a man), independent (don't need anyone especially a man), but then they are also weak and dependent too.  I've been told women can run marathons after pregnancy myself, but apparently housework is too hard for them.  There's a lot of issues with this article, for starters housework is not as hard or time consuming as it used to be.  Laundry machines, dishwashers, pre-prepared food from grocery stores,  and of course TV babysitters make a stay home mother's life very easy.  Really, it only takes a couple of hours at most per day to complete all needed tasks.  The biggest problem with housewives is boredom, not too much work. Hardly slaves.  Modern women should try being housewives in the 19th century.  Want to feed your family chicken noodle soup?  Go outside kill the chicken, boil and pluck feathers, chop the vegetables yourself, then cook it in a pot.  Also don't forget to wash the clothes by hand and tailor all the rips and lost buttons.  How much you bet that 19th century women (5 + children) complained less about postpartum issues then modern women (1.5+ children).  They couldn't complain, they had no time, the work had to be done.  If a woman was actually sick, then she got help from her mother, or sister, or other relatives and friends.  This postpartum distressed women (from the article) should be complaining about her mother not her husband.  


    I agree with this statement, although I also agree with what Matthew is trying to say about trad men and how their over zealousness (to put it nicely) in their crusade against feminism hurts their wives and themselves.
    The woman who is making this comment seems like she is exaggerating somethings or she got a huge reality check about what being a mother is.  
    She says she is 9 weeks postpartum, unless she is ill, she should be able to look after the house and the baby by now.  If she was 4 weeks postpartum from her first child I would think her husband should ease up a bit, but after 2 months she should be able to handle doing laundry and dishes and cleaning...The fact she mentions breastfeeding as a chore and she is complaining about it kind of shows she is complaining about just being a mother...
    I think she sounds like she doesn't want to be a wife and a mother..


    Offline Matthew

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    Modern world Feminism hard on postpartum mothers
    « Reply #11 on: October 31, 2014, 02:42:12 AM »
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  • That's something to be kept in mind as you go through life, namely:

    A great saint once said that roughly 1 in 3 are called to a religious/priestly vocation.

    Look around you -- I don't see many accepted and completed vocations brought to fruition (ordination or profession in a religious order). Ergo...
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    Offline Tiffany

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    Modern world Feminism hard on postpartum mothers
    « Reply #12 on: October 31, 2014, 08:16:40 AM »
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  • The dehydration is because she is preoccupied with other things.

    Offline Tiffany

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    Modern world Feminism hard on postpartum mothers
    « Reply #13 on: October 31, 2014, 08:21:37 AM »
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  • Cantarella in a society without feminism it's more likely that an unmarried young woman would help a young mother as her own mother would have her own family to care for.

    Offline Fortitudo

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    Modern world Feminism hard on postpartum mothers
    « Reply #14 on: November 03, 2014, 02:20:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: PereJoseph

    There are so many irregularities in the woman's story; I don't see why she is just taken at her word, given what we know of women and their feelings.  I hope this isn't how somebody would be treated in real life. "Sir, we need to talk.  Your wife was complaining about you to me the other day and I think you're a lowlife. Shame on you !"  I don't think that's the best approach for the long-term success of the family.


    And yet, you did exactly the thing you are railing against!

    You are irked at the lack of "presumption of innocence" with regard to the husband, yet you do NOT offer the wife her own "presumption of innocence" with your tacky remark: "given what we know of women and their feelings."


    How disgraceful.

    Men like this, and the men that have not the foggiest notion of the physical realities of childbearing are the lowest of the male Trad species, and generally give all Trad men a bad name when they speak up like this one did.

    Sadly, there are many (it ought to be only FEW) Trad men who do not do the slightest thing to help their wives after they have given birth and are down, physically DOWN - for the count.

    Really, sir, you ought to try it sometime. Try giving birth, which I can accurately describe as a very PURGATORIAL experience, and then see how well you can function in the running of an entire household with many other children - all while feeling like you have just been hit by a Mack truck and have broken every bone and ligament in your body.

    Some of you Trad men, in your haste to restore everything as head of the household/earth/society, etc. have clearly NEVER stopped to ask yourself if St. Joseph would have had such expectations of the Blessed Virgin Mary or would have treated her this way.

    You all take your idea of male hierarchy and ride it - full tilt - right into the realm of tyranny, and slavery.