Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Matthew on July 14, 2011, 05:30:41 PM
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Do you know any modern women who seem to want all the benefits of old-fashioned values/morals, but want things that old-fashioned women would never have sought, such as career, equal power in marriage, etc.?
I've actually met women who seem old-fashioned in some ways -- but they are completely modern in other ways.
It makes you wonder, does a man even exist for them? And how could he -- he'd be a walking contradiction. A square circle.
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FWIW, I think moderns in general, be they men or women, want to have their cake and eat it, too -- when it doesn't happen, children flip out, married folks get divorced, etc. Leaving aside fallen nature's tendencies in that direction, I suspect that mentality has been chemically formulated by some mega-nerds at the CDC and put into our water... :scratchchin:
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There is a rather good cure for this. Alas, the book was written by a mormon lady, and I can't seem to find a good one that rivals it by a Catholic author, mors the pity.
http://tinyurl.com/6lagnr2
Here are the first few pages for your reading pleasure, ladies.
For the unmarried, go here:
http://tinyurl.com/69lbaks
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On the other hand (and this is related, but might be good for another thread "modern MEN want to have their cake and eat it too") there are men with 1) unrealistic expectations with the way women are, and 2) it's been belabored enough that there aren't enough "manly men" out there (which I agree, but I think men are simply reacting to the absolutely warped way WOMEN behave now days).
Here is something for the men!
This was written by the husband of the mormon woman that wrote the books in the previous post.
http://tinyurl.com/68cn7xh
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There is a rather good cure for this. Alas, the book was written by a mormon lady, and I can't seem to find a good one that rivals it by a Catholic author, mors the pity.
http://tinyurl.com/6lagnr2
Here are the first few pages for your reading pleasure, ladies.
For the unmarried, go here:
http://tinyurl.com/69lbaks
A fellow parishioner loaned this to me once upon a time. She couldn't speak highly enough about it. I was still working and busy reading "all about baby" books at the time, so I never got very far into it. Good to know it's online.
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I have a -- how do you say it... "mentally unstable" mother-in-law (doesn't everyone? Uh... I argue no.) that gave me this book years ago.
I have to say, that it was the dumbest thing I ever did to ignore it. When I DID read it, I repeatedly KICKED myself that I didn't read it when she gave it to me rather than waiting 7 years after the fact.
I can't tell you enough how wonderful both of these books are: The first, for the married, and the latter for the single.
I'm telling you-- if these books were given and made required reading in the Catholic schools, you would see an absolute transformation of society.
These books are the absolute nightmare of the feminist movement.
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Considering the fact that I'm a traditional Roman Catholic young woman and I want a family AND I want to be a teacher AND open my own art school...I think that I can and there is nothing wrong with that. My mother and father have been together 2 years, 6 children, we're all Catholic and both my parents have careers. Absolutely nothing wrong with a woman wanting a career and a family.
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Considering the fact that I'm a traditional Roman Catholic young woman and I want a family AND I want to be a teacher AND open my own art school...I think that I can and there is nothing wrong with that. My mother and father have been together 2 years, 6 children, we're all Catholic and both my parents have careers. Absolutely nothing wrong with a woman wanting a career and a family.
Unless you are a single mother, you CANNOT be a successful career woman, let alone a good mother who provides for the emotional and psychological needs of her children.
There is a very good reason why women have STAYED at home, and the man instead has gone out to work and provide for his family unit. The children that have been raised by career-moms are the testament of their failure.
Personally I dont like the analogy of having the cake and eating it too. You get the cake you want and you eat it. But we're talking more than one cake here. Can you eat two WHOLE cakes? It's either one or the other, or half of each (which doesn't work in this case)
It's a different situation when a woman has to provide for the house in the absence of a man, but a woman who want's to have a successful career that takes her away from the home and her children, whom at the same time she wishes to raise into fine Catholics and citizens, IS PICKING 3 LARGE PEARS WITH 1 HAND.
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Considering the fact that I'm a traditional Roman Catholic young woman and I want a family AND I want to be a teacher AND open my own art school...I think that I can and there is nothing wrong with that. My mother and father have been together 2 years, 6 children, we're all Catholic and both my parents have careers. Absolutely nothing wrong with a woman wanting a career and a family.
The book that I listed in this thread is essential reading for you, my dear.
It will help you understand what is expected of you as a TRUE CATHOLIC WOMAN, and a woman that has aspirations of being a mother.
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Sophia, I'm glad you made it here!!! Even though alot of the people might sound harsh, try your best not to feel contempt or rejection of the advice given. I used to think probably many of the same ways you do (I went to college, and later realized how perverted it was and how they brain wash all of us kids).
Catholic motherhood should be viewed as the pinnacle of the woman's life, but sadly today its about being equal to men. But really... are men and women really equal? We are different in many ways that compliment eachother actually.
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Do you know any modern women who seem to want all the benefits of old-fashioned values/morals, but want things that old-fashioned women would never have sought, such as career, equal power in marriage, etc.?
I've actually met women who seem old-fashioned in some ways -- but they are completely modern in other ways.
It makes you wonder, does a man even exist for them? And how could he -- he'd be a walking contradiction. A square circle.
Thread title: Modern women want to have their cake AND eat it too
My Reponse: They want to but cannot.
That's the sad thing about a lot of girls and women today. It is like the issue of the permanent diaconate in a sense. It is difficult to live two vocations, if possible, without lacking in both or either of them.
A woman then desires to have both the married and, in a certain sense, the single life. It is hard to not be lacking in either or both.
I remember one of the interviews with Bishop Williamson, though, where he talks about how even though a woman may have had a career, she can apply her knowledge and experience to raising her children and taking care of a household. The best thing for many single women today then is to find a husband, as Bp. Williamson also put forth.
I think someone on the forum maybe recently pointed out how men attract what they are too, and so the men need to improve themselves on the natural level and let the grace of God work in them to build on nature.
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I do not think that a woman working outside the home is in the same class as woman who rejects the authority of her husband. There may be cases where financial necessity forces a woman to have an outside job. It could be what her husband wants her to do.
But the headship of the husband is an important spiritual reality that is at the core of marriage.
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A woman who works outside the home, truly undermines her husband by usurping his role, and lacks trust in him.
As a wife, if you want things to go well in your marriage, you will not take his role as the provider on yourself. This makes him feel like less of a man.
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A woman who works outside the home, truly undermines her husband by usurping his role, and lacks trust in him.
As a wife, if you want things to go well in your marriage, you will not take his role as the provider on yourself. This makes him feel like less of a man.
What if the husband tells her to get a job? Should she go against his authority?
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A woman who works outside the home, truly undermines her husband by usurping his role, and lacks trust in him.
As a wife, if you want things to go well in your marriage, you will not take his role as the provider on yourself. This makes him feel like less of a man.
What if the husband tells her to get a job? Should she go against his authority?
This would be a poor reflection on him. Is this person hypothetical? Are these hypothetical people impoverished?
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A woman who works outside the home, truly undermines her husband by usurping his role, and lacks trust in him.
As a wife, if you want things to go well in your marriage, you will not take his role as the provider on yourself. This makes him feel like less of a man.
What if the husband tells her to get a job? Should she go against his authority?
Then her husband is not following the job that God has given him as the provider. She would need to clearly state her role in the household, and if she was doing her job as homemaker and caretaker of the children, she would not be prevailed upon by her husband to undertake his job.
If a woman does her job as the wife, the husband will be able to do what he needs to do to provide for the family, with God's help, not hers, bread winning.
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A woman who works outside the home, truly undermines her husband by usurping his role, and lacks trust in him.
As a wife, if you want things to go well in your marriage, you will not take his role as the provider on yourself. This makes him feel like less of a man.
What if the husband tells her to get a job? Should she go against his authority?
This would be a poor reflection on him. Is this person hypothetical? Are these hypothetical people impoverished?
I've known couples in this situation, but none well enough to know the details.
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If the couple were really in trouble financially, there are things the wife could do to either earn more or save more that would be in line with her vocation and keep her in the home. Unless she has a previously-developed professional skill, she'd probably be just as much help financially by developing homemaking skills, caring for other children, producing home-made items for sale, etc.
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I thought it would be a good idea to outline why I hold the opinion I have. I've cited this book earlier in the thread, and it is not online, just portions of it for sample reading to get you to purchase the book, but I guarantee, it's the best $8 you can spend as a wife and mother if you don't already have it. Yes it was written by a protestant, but most of what is in there is more Catholic than any Novus Ordo book you'll pick up.
Exerpt from Fascinating Womanhood:
The Provider
A man needs to function, feel needed, and excel women as a provider.
Since the beginning of time, the man has been recognized as the provider. The first commandment given him was, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return." This commandment was given, not to the woman, but to the man. The woman was instructed to bring forth children. From this time forth their duties have been thus divided.
This arrangement has been honored by tradition, custom, and even courts of the law. In the event of divorce men are still legally bound to pay alimony; thus they continue to earn the bread so the mother can nurture the children. This plan is important to live, however, not because of custom or law but because it is God's command.
Another reason the man should provide: Inborn in a man is a keen sense of responsibility to provide the living and to function effectively in this role. Being successful in this area of his life is as important to his feeling of worth, as a woman's is in succeeding as a mother and homemaker.
As the man fulfills his masculine duty as the provider, it presents a tender, romantic scene as the following nursery rhyme:
By, baby bunting,
Daddy's gone a hunting,
To get a little rabbit skin,
To wrap his baby bunting in.
Picture, if you can, a mother at home nurturing her little ones, making a comfortable home for her family, the father goes out into the world struggling against the elements and oppositions of life to bring home the necessities and comforts for his loved ones. This romantic scene, instead of being taken for granted, should be viewed as the heart and core of life which, when lived properly, brings soul satisfaction that cannot be measured. There is nothing equal to it and nothing more important.
A man also has an inborn need to feel needed as a provider, to feel that his wife depends on him for financial support and can't get by without him. In addition, he has an inborn need to excel women as a provider. A man's feeling of worth can be undermined when he sees women in the workforce doing a better job than he, advancing to a higher position, or earning more pay. How much worse when his own wife excels him.
What a Man Should Provide
An excellent description of what a man should provide is from my husband's book, Man of Steel and Velvet:
"Simply stated, the man should provide the necessities. This means food, clothing, and a shelter, plus a few comforts and conveniences.... Through all generations of time it has been recognized that when a man marries, his wife and children are entitled to his financial support. Failure to meet this obligation has been just cause for divorce, and even after the marriage separation, a man is still under financial obligation. Financial support and, along with this, fidelity have always been the two main entitlements for a woman in marriage. But whether these laws remain in force or not, the moral and sacred obligation is just as binding, the need just as great.
"It's important that a man provide a shelter separate from anyone else. This is important for the sake of privacy and giving the wife the opportunity of making a home in her own way. Perhaps this is why a special instruction was given by God in the very beginning: Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be two in one flesh. (Gen 2:24) Under stress of circuмstances there may be occasions when a man must move his wife and children into another household. Although there may be justification temporarily, it's contrary to the divine plan and unfair to the wife if this situation extends beyond a brief emergency.
"Although a man has a sacred and binding obligation to provide the necessities, he is under no such obligation to provide the luxuries. Women and children are not entitled to ease and luxury, to style and elegance. His duty is not to provide a costly home, expensive furniture, and decor. Concerning the education of his children, he has an obligation to provide a basic education, but such a binding obligation doesn't extend to a higher education, music lessons, the arts and cultures. He may wish to provide these, and it may bring him much pleasure to do so, but it's not mandatory.
"In providing a high standard of living, some men make near economic slaves of themselves, with great disadvantage to themselves and their families. Too often a man is so consumed with meeting ever-increasing demands, not only by his family, but by himself. that he does not preserve himself for things of greater value. He has little time to give to his wife and children, time to teach them the values of life, how to live, standards to follow, and time to build strong family ties.
"A man is also entitled to time for himself, for recreation, study, and meditation. He has a further need to be of service outside his own circle, a commitment to society. Church service is an important responsibility. Men have talents which need to be shared, ability which could be developed to make the world a better place. It is not right for a man to spend his entire time and energy to provide luxuries for his own family circle."
(I'll add more later.)
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I thought it would be a good idea to outline why I hold the opinion I have. I've cited this book earlier in the thread, and it is not online, just portions of it for sample reading to get you to purchase the book, but I guarantee, it's the best $8 you can spend as a wife and mother if you don't already have it. Yes it was written by a protestant, but most of what is in there is more Catholic than any Novus Ordo book you'll pick up.
I noticed that yesterday when I went to see if I could download it. :sad:
I added it to my library booklist, though.
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Continuing...
His Pressing Responsibility to Provide
A woman needs to understand with an all-comprehending sympathy what a man faces in earning the living. An excellent description is found in Dr. Marie Robinson's Book, The Power of sɛҳuąƖ Surrender, from which I quote:
"The majority of men, when they come of age and marry, take on an enormous burden which they may not lay down with any conscience this side of the grave. Quietly, and without histrionics, they put aside, in the name of love, most of their vaunted freedom and contract to take upon their shoulders full social and economic responsibility for their wives and children.
"As a woman, consider for a moment how you would feel if your child should be deprived of the good things of life; proper housing, clothing, education. Consider how you would feel if he should go hungry. Perhaps such ideas have occurred to you and have given you a bad turn momentarily. But they are passing thoughts: a woman does not give them much credence; they are not her direct responsibility; certainly she does not worry about them for long.
"But such thoughts, conscious or unconscious, are her husband's daily fare. He knows, and he takes the carking thought to work with him each morning (and every morning) and to bed with him at night, that upon the success or failure of his efforts rests the happiness, health, indeed the very lives of his wife and children. In the ultimate he senses he alone must take full responsibility for them.
"I do not think it is possible to exaggerate how seriously men take this responsibility; how much they worry about it. Women, unless they are very close to their men, rarely know how heavily the burden weighs sometimes, for men talk about it very little. They do not want their loved ones to worry.
"Men have been shouldering the entire responsibility for their family group since earliest times. I often think, however, when I see the stresses and strains of today's marketplace, that civilized man has much harder going, psychologically speaking, than his primitive forefathers.
"In the first place, the competition creates a terrible strain on the individual male. This competition is not only for preferment and advancement, it is often for his very job itself. Every man knows if he falters, lets up his ceaseless drive, he can and will be easily replaced.
"No level of employment is really free of this endless pressure. The executive must meet and exceed his last year's quota or the quota of his competitors. Those under him must see that he does it, and he scrutinizes their performance most severely, and therefore constantly.
"Professional men-- doctors, lawyers, professors-- are under no less pressure for the most part. If the lawyer is self-employed, he must constantly seek new clients; if he works for an organization he must exert himself endlessly to avoid being superseded by ambitious peers or by pushing young particles just out of law school and fired with the raw energy of youth. A score of unhappy contingencies can ruin or seriously threaten a doctor's practice, not the least of which is a possible breakdown in his ability to practice. A teacher must work long hours on publishable projects outside of his arduous teaching assignments if he is to advance or even hold his ground.
"There is no field of endeavor that a man may enter where he can count on complete economic safety; competition, the need for unremitting year-in, year-out performance is his life's lot. Over all this he knows, too, stands a separate specter upon which he can exert only the remotest control. It is the joblessness which may be caused by the cyclical depression and recessions that characterize our economy."
Do Women Who Work Feel the Same Pressure Men Do?
Women who work do not feel the same kind of pressure men do. This is because they have a different orientation to the world of work. Whereas a man feels he cannot turn aside from his work with a clear conscience, a woman doesn't feel this same sense of duty. She can resign her job at any time and for any reason, without a feeling of guilt. Economic problems may result but she won't have a lower opinion of herself or feel disgraced in the eyes of the public.
On the other hand, if an able-bodied man were to stop working it would injure his feeling of worth and his image to the public. He and everyone else would consider him a failure if he were to neglect this important duty. A woman feels pressure, but of a different kind-- a time pressure which comes from living a double role. A man feels a binding moral pressure.
(Posting more later.)
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I gotta post the rest of this chapter when it's not dark out. I hope to put it up here soon.
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PFT, in what year(s) were these books written?
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PFT, in what year(s) were these books written?
I'll answer my own question...
Fascinating Womanhood has a copyright of 1963, but notes that it was inspired by a set of anonymous booklets published in the 1920s.
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PFT, in what year(s) were these books written?
I'll answer my own question...
Fascinating Womanhood has a copyright of 1963, but notes that it was inspired by a set of anonymous booklets published in the 1920s.
Yep, and it was the nightmare of the feminists in the 1960's.
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The only real problem I have with what's been posted so far is this:
"Simply stated, the man should provide the necessities. This means food, clothing, and a shelter, plus a few comforts and conveniences.... Through all generations of time it has been recognized that when a man marries, his wife and children are entitled to his financial support. Failure to meet this obligation has been just cause for divorce, and even after the marriage separation, a man is still under financial obligation. Financial support and, along with this, fidelity have always been the two main entitlements for a woman in marriage. But whether these laws remain in force or not, the moral and sacred obligation is just as binding, the need just as great."
There is no such thing as a "just cause for divorce", as God hates divorce.
Also, when it comes to children being entitled to financial support, I think it should be noted that whatever support the children are entitled to is not permanent. Once they reach adulthood, the father certainly is not obliged to provide for them any longer, although he could.
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One would have to consider that this was written by a Mormon, so not EVERYTHING in there is in the Catholic context, including that statement.
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Is it unreasonable for me to expect in a future wife that she:
-primarily dresses in skirts/dresses
-primarily does the cooking/cleaning
-Emphasizes the faith to our children
-Does the grocery shopping
-Has a dinner prepared at least 5 nights a week
-Is the "heart of the home" while still being a firm disciplinarian when needed
Im asking this because I shared these desires with family/friends who are not traditional catholics and they said my expectations are unrealistic and I need to get with the times, otherwise I will be miserable forever. Kind of like the posts regarding the recent fisheaters thread. I think the term used was "candyland."
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Is it unreasonable for me to expect in a future wife that she:
-primarily dresses in skirts/dresses
-primarily does the cooking/cleaning
-Emphasizes the faith to our children
-Does the grocery shopping
-Has a dinner prepared at least 5 nights a week
-Is the "heart of the home" while still being a firm disciplinarian when needed
Im asking this because I shared these desires with family/friends who are not traditional catholics and they said my expectations are unrealistic and I need to get with the times, otherwise I will be miserable forever. Kind of like the posts regarding the recent fisheaters thread. I think the term used was "candyland."
You will be MISERABLE FOREVER, if you don't stick to these expectations.
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Good luck finding that one needle in a very large stack of hay..
I have yet to encounter any woman who wears skirts/dresses on a regular basis. It seems as though the only ones that do are the pagan African women and the Mohammedans that you would see on the BBC every day. The main problem is that these women aren't Catholic and live on the other side of the globe..
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Good luck finding that one needle in a very large stack of hay..
I have yet to encounter any woman who wears skirts/dresses on a regular basis. It seems as though the only ones that do are the pagan African women and the Mohammedans that you would see on the BBC every day. The main problem is that these women aren't Catholic and live on the other side of the globe..
O, ye of little faith. :farmer:
If God desires you for marriage, and you want these things in a wife, she exists out there. Never stop believing that, because He provides.
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Good luck finding that one needle in a very large stack of hay..
I have yet to encounter any woman who wears skirts/dresses on a regular basis. It seems as though the only ones that do are the pagan African women and the Mohammedans that you would see on the BBC every day. The main problem is that these women aren't Catholic and live on the other side of the globe..
O, ye of little faith. :farmer:
If God desires you for marriage, and you want these things in a wife, she exists out there. Never stop believing that, because He provides.
:applause:
:rahrah:
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Good luck finding that one needle in a very large stack of hay..
I know it's discouraging, but look... all you need to find is ONE. :smirk:
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I usually buy books used for the lowest price I can find. I looked up FW on Amazon.com and Half.com ... and while there were a few that were a couple dollars less than $8.00, I was suprised to see that it's still going to cost at least in the $5-$6 range for the paperback version. It seems to be holding it's value pretty well, currently. I bought a used copy a few years back and know I didn't pay that much. A lot of the time I can buy books on Amazon.com for 1 cent plus $3.99 s&h!
Anyway, I love this book and respect the memory of Mrs Andelin (who passed away in 2009, I believe). Her book has managed to enlighten and enrage equal numbers of women over the years ... proving what an important subject this is for women in our culture. There is no neutral response to what she taught through this book.
Her Mormonism comes through when she talks about things like "Celestial Marriage" and I guess in the mentioning of divorce .. but I think she also refers to avoiding divorce at all costs, fighting for one's H who's gone outside the marriage ...
I'm reading "Escape" by Carolyn Jessop, formerly of the FLDS cult ... and she mentions girls at her school called "nusses" a nickname for the term "righteousness." These girls were hated by the others because they used FW as their "bible" and were behaving in ways that the other girls felt was so fake and superficial. I can see that being a possibility .. However, I also think there are ways of incorporating the teachings into ones' life while still behaving in a realistic manner. Also, Mrs Andelin was not of the cult within the cult that FLDS is/was. Mrs. Andelin was the only wife of her husband. :smile:
Anyway, just my 2 cents.
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There are currently multiple editions of FW in paperback form on half.com for 75 cents each! I clicked into one of the links and in the good and acceptable category, there are more than a few at that price!
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In regards to Fascinating Womanhood ... While I had heard about this book at various times over the years, it wasn't until I had read several discussions about it over at the Fish Eaters website (which were primarily negative) that I decided to actually read it. I was quite surprised to find that rather than being "outraged" over the contents, it really just reiterated what I had already learned about the Christian role of marriage and motherhood.
When I was still a protestant, I attended quite a few women's Bible studies on Christian womanhood, modesty, marriage, and mothering. These were wonderful, and I learned so much. I haven't come across anything like them since I've converted to the Catholic faith, which is a shame; I sometimes feel as if it's a "sink of swim" approach.
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SouthernBelle: I've felt that way as well. We no longer live in a Christian culture and we are really left to our own devices to try to figure it all out on our own. It seems to me that Catholics have never really had that public aspect to their faith like Protestants do and that even though it's changed in recent years with Catholic TV and Radio and book publishing, it's all in the Novus Ordo framework, which is problematic on multiple levels.
Traditional Catholic books tend to focus on spirituality and prayer first and foremost rather than providing a "how to" type book. I understand that and it makes sense. But sometimes Catholic materials are rather lofty and take a bit of effort to understand and apply. There are quite a few people who've recommended FW over the years from the Catholic world and frankly, I think it remains "the" best how to book in general for a wife to improve herself and her marriage.
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:reading:
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Sad to say, I'm finding that trad Catholics think they know it all & prefer to fight among themselves over the faith instead of getting out there & DOING something for the faith. There's so much to be done!!
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Considering the fact that I'm a traditional Roman Catholic young woman and I want a family AND I want to be a teacher AND open my own art school...I think that I can and there is nothing wrong with that. My mother and father have been together 2 years, 6 children, we're all Catholic and both my parents have careers. Absolutely nothing wrong with a woman wanting a career and a family.
Sophia see if your mom or your parish has a copy of Catholic Homeschooling by Mary Kay Clark. I don't have a copy here but I believe it's in there she writes about the time it took being involved in a parent operated school. I haven't read their newsletter in a couple of years but perhaps you could ask to speak to her. I'm sure anyone person involved in a private school can tell you how much work and time it takes away from home.
Instead of becoming a teacher and opening an art school, why not offer art classes to homeschoolers once a week? That would not interfere with your own family life so much. Secondly if you had a newborn or a stressful time in your family life you could simply take a break without consequence.