Catholic Info

Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Ladislaus on April 06, 2019, 04:39:40 PM

Title: Misogyny within Tradition
Post by: Ladislaus on April 06, 2019, 04:39:40 PM
You are a fool. Your rubbish doesn't even deserve a response.

It is 100% Catholic and 100% traditional for nuns to teach children. That is in keeping with God's natural order. Adults (male and female) are in authority over, and ABOVE, all children -- both male and female. That is how God designed things. I'll give you a hint: the family. Both mother AND father have authority over all their children, both male and female.

You sound like some kind of barely Catholic misogynist. You are letting  your hatred of women warp your thinking.

Yes, I've been calling out misogyny here on CathInfo for a while now.  I'm glad you're seeing this too.  And I've known a lot of these types in the Traditional movement.  They have insecurities vis-a-vis women, usually due to their struggles with impurity, so they seek to dominate and oppress women at every opportunity as a way of attempting to re-assert this control.  But it's the wrong solution to the problem.  Instead of seeking mastery over women, seek mastery over yourself first, and then you'll be able to have a more balanced (and Catholic) view of the relationship between men and women.
Title: Re: Misogyny within Tradition
Post by: Ladislaus on April 06, 2019, 04:42:18 PM
The leadership of the neo-SSPX seems to believe that they can "Save the Church" despite the horrible Modernists in the conciliar hierarchy. They seem to have the idea that God will be on their side, and they don't really have to worry about the Modernist sect that occupies the Church. Maybe they are hindered, though, in that they haven't been able to convince all of the members of the SSPX of this yet.

I believe that they have this fantasy in their minds:

SSPX gets regularized, and the number of priests/seminarians explodes.  So amazed is the Church as this fruit of Tradition, that people start returning to Traditiona en masse.  Then, at a conclave in the near future, +Fellay gets the nod and is elected Pope, and the Church is restored.
Title: Re: Misogyny within Tradition
Post by: Matthew on April 06, 2019, 05:07:39 PM
I believe that they have this fantasy in their minds:

SSPX gets regularized, and the number of priests/seminarians explodes.  So amazed is the Church as this fruit of Tradition, that people start returning to Traditiona en masse.  Then, at a conclave in the near future, +Fellay gets the nod and is elected Pope, and the Church is restored.
Ah yes -- and this fantasy has no connection to pride or vainglory, I'm sure.
Title: Re: Misogyny within Tradition
Post by: Pax Vobis on April 06, 2019, 05:11:18 PM
Quote
They have insecurities vis-a-vis women, usually due to their struggles with impurity, so they seek to dominate and oppress women at every opportunity as a way of attempting to re-assert this control. 
That’s a broad brush you’re painting with.  There are a number of reasons that men are fed up with women today (catholic and non-catholic), and many of the reasons have nothing to do with men, but the growth of feminism, which leads many women to be self-centered, career-oriented, superficial and aggressive.  It’s a real problem, especially for those under the age of 40 and these women are a scourge to society even outside of dating.  Obviously some men have turned bitter and hateful, but this is a natural reaction (at least in the short term).  Long term, they have to accept reality.  But the women are owed the negative emotions, by and large, even Trad women.  It’s sad but true.  It’s pervasive. 
Title: Re: Misogyny within Tradition
Post by: Ladislaus on April 06, 2019, 05:40:01 PM
But the women are owed the negative emotions, by and large, even Trad women.  It’s sad but true.  It’s pervasive.

Returning broad brush for broad brush.  Of course what I wrote does not apply to everyone; it's just my personal experience with the Chrysostom types.  So, for instance, you too are strongly against feminism ... but I do not detect misogyny in your posts.  Yet there is a certain profile that seems to follow a common pattern.
Title: Re: Misogyny within Tradition
Post by: SoldierOfChrist on April 06, 2019, 06:21:11 PM
That’s a broad brush you’re painting with.  There are a number of reasons that men are fed up with women today (catholic and non-catholic), and many of the reasons have nothing to do with men, but the growth of feminism, which leads many women to be self-centered, career-oriented, superficial and aggressive.  It’s a real problem, especially for those under the age of 40 and these women are a scourge to society even outside of dating.  Obviously some men have turned bitter and hateful, but this is a natural reaction (at least in the short term).  Long term, they have to accept reality.  But the women are owed the negative emotions, by and large, even Trad women.  It’s sad but true.  It’s pervasive.
It's the communists who have done this to women.  It isn't their fault at all.  It's as much the fault of women that they think the way they do today, and then act on the way that they think, as it would be the fault of my children if they developed early onset diabetes, after I supplied them with as much candy and ice cream as they could eat, every day for the first ten years of their lives.  Women have been conditioned to think and behave the way that they do today because the communists figured out a long time ago how to manipulate them.  There is mountains of information about this online, but long story short: women do what they think is expected of them.  If society expects them to act a certain way, a majority of women will do it.  If they think that everyone else their age is having sex, a majority of them will do it.  If everyone else is dressing a certain way, a majority of women will do it.  That is how they hold society together.  They are group oriented and try not to get disconnected from the group.  When they are connected to the group, they feel like they are doing the right thing.  God designed them this way.  The communists figured this out a LONG time ago and have been using it against us by targeting their propaganda at women.  And children.  They don't target it at men, because they know that it doesn't work on men.  What does work on men?  Power, money, and the drive to procreate.  Convince half of society that something crazy is true, and that they have to punish any men who refuse to believe the crazy thing.  Like that transvestites are really women.
This is what's going on with the women today, and I do not at all blame it on women.  I blame it on our real enemies and we all know who THEY are.
Title: Re: Misogyny within Tradition
Post by: Matto on April 06, 2019, 06:31:17 PM
It's the communists who have done this to women.  It isn't their fault at all.  
. . .
This is what's going on with the women today, and I do not at all blame it on women.  I blame it on our real enemies and we all know who THEY are.
So all the blame is on the Jews (or the communists)? You are saying that women have no agency and have no responsibility for their own actions. Eve ate of the fruit and was guilty. I blame women for their own sins. When a woman is tempted by the devil and falls and listens to the devil, the woman is to blame.
Title: Re: Misogyny within Tradition
Post by: SoldierOfChrist on April 06, 2019, 06:54:27 PM
So all the blame is on the Jews (or the communists)? You are saying that women have no agency and have no responsibility for their own actions. Eve ate of the fruit and was guilty. I blame women for their own sins. When a woman is tempted by the devil and falls and listens to the devil, the woman is to blame.
They're all individually guilty for their individual sins.  They're not guilty as a group for the state of the world.  
As far as their individual sins, I'm not going to get specific and start coming through hypotheticals, but if it's something they're blind to, that minimizes their agency in it.  If it's something they see and choose to do, that maximizes their agency.  Same as us.  But we have different blindspots, and men have better ability to smell bs.
Title: Re: Misogyny within Tradition
Post by: SoldierOfChrist on April 06, 2019, 07:02:38 PM
And also, if women are misbehaving in society today, it's because men allowed the situation to get to where it got.  Adam could have told Eve to pound sand.  Men today are so weak and effeminate.  They're addicted to porn, alcohol, and video games.  Men should be stepping up to the plate and acting like men if they want women to act like they should.
Title: Re: Misogyny within Tradition
Post by: pearl777 on April 06, 2019, 07:09:46 PM
And also, if women are misbehaving in society today, it's because men allowed the situation to get to where it got.  Adam could have told Eve to pound sand.  Men today are so weak and effeminate.  They're addicted to porn, alcohol, and video games.  Men should be stepping up to the plate and acting like men if they want women to act like they should.
Amen.  Don't many men have as large a wardrobe, and as many cosmetics as women.  S-C-A-R-Y.  
Title: Re: Misogyny within Tradition
Post by: Pax Vobis on April 06, 2019, 08:12:02 PM

Quote
Returning broad brush for broad brush.  Of course what I wrote does not apply to everyone; it's just my personal experience with the Chrysostom types.  So, for instance, you too are strongly against feminism ... but I do not detect misogyny in your posts.  Yet there is a certain profile that seems to follow a common pattern.
Ok, Touche.  Let's just say that it's the 80/20 rule.  20% of men are mysogynists and 20% of women are true feminists.  The rest of the 80% of both men and women are normal humans, who are swayed by the social norms and attitudes of the day.  In other words, in most cases, you have 20% of the population who are very passionate about something and the rest of the 80% just picks sides, but not strongly.

However, i'd argue that of the 80% of men and women, there are more women infected with partial-feminism than there are men who are partial-mysogynists.  Why?  Because society for the last 80+ years has been promoting, non-stop, feminist ideals.  If anything, most men are pacifists and effeminate today, not mysogynists.  Most men have been corrupted to REACT irrationally and emotionally (i.e. unmanly...instead of using their reason), and they have been corrupted to laziness and apathy - but not to hatred of women.

Yes, there are plenty of men like Chrysostom who let their hate take over, but i'd argue that some of the anger is justified.  I come across all sorts of women nowadays (both at work, in social settings, and just in stores) where their attitude is uncalled for.  And this has nothing to do with attractive women or impurity or anything else.  It has to do with a lack of manners, a lack of respect and an aggressive, hostile or demeaning attitude.  I can see how some men would lash out because of this, eventually.  This doesn't make their reactions correct, but it's understandable.  In our day and age, misogyny (or more correctly, being angry at hostile/entitled women) can have nothing to do with impurity or dating at all.  It can be related to that, sure, but not necessarily...that's my main point.
Title: Re: Misogyny within Tradition
Post by: Pax Vobis on April 06, 2019, 08:37:55 PM
Quote
It's the communists who have done this to women.  It isn't their fault at all.  It's as much the fault of women that they think the way they do today, and then act on the way that they think, as it would be the fault of my children if they developed early onset diabetes, after I supplied them with as much candy and ice cream as they could eat, every day for the first ten years of their lives.  

Excellent points.


Quote
Women have been conditioned to think and behave the way that they do today because the communists figured out a long time ago how to manipulate them.  

Part of it is conditioning but part of it is fallen nature.  Yes, women are being manipulated for social and political reasons, but on a deeper level, feminism is a temptation to pride, whereby women are tempted to lust for independence and control, the 2 main areas where God punished Eve after the fall in the garden.  Due to Original Sin, God ordained that all women be subjected to their husbands (i.e. lack of independence) and that men would rule over them (i.e. lack of control).  Women are always tempted to these things, and they always challenge men for control in a relationship, even if, as feminism shows, when women get control, they are unhappy because it is contrary to their nature to be in charge.



Quote
There is mountains of information about this online, but long story short: women do what they think is expected of them.  If society expects them to act a certain way, a majority of women will do it.  If they think that everyone else their age is having sex, a majority of them will do it.  If everyone else is dressing a certain way, a majority of women will do it.  That is how they hold society together.  They are group oriented and try not to get disconnected from the group.  When they are connected to the group, they feel like they are doing the right thing.  God designed them this way.  The communists figured this out a LONG time ago and have been using it against us by targeting their propaganda at women.  And children.  They don't target it at men, because they know that it doesn't work on men.  What does work on men?  Power, money, and the drive to procreate.  Convince half of society that something crazy is true, and that they have to punish any men who refuse to believe the crazy thing.  Like that transvestites are really women.
This is what's going on with the women today, and I do not at all blame it on women.  I blame it on our real enemies and we all know who THEY are.
Agree.  Of course you can't blame women for their natural human weaknesses or for the corruption due to Original Sin, but that doesn't excuse them from succuмbing to temptation and acting like men.  It also doesn't excuse men from acting like wussies and allowing their families to be corrupted.  But...i'd argue that today, due to the acute and pervasive propaganda which is being used against the female gender, that more women are corrupted (on average, to a deeper degree) than men.  

We've had many centuries where men were weak, amoral and absentee fathers.  The family survived because women were moral and held society together.  But never before in the history of man has there been such a degradation of womankind on such a large scale.  I just think it's unprecedented.  Can a culture survive when women are corrupted to such an extent?  We're finding out the answer is "no".

I can't remember which holy person said this, but someone said that before the Age of Mary in the last days, there would be the age of eve, where the devil would try to recreate the pride of the Garden of Eden everywhere.  But Mary would conquer satan through the humility of her children, just as Her humility brought about the Redeemer, who saved the world from its sins.
Title: Re: Misogyny within Tradition
Post by: Motorede on April 06, 2019, 09:23:59 PM
Anyone here ever cross the border from Mexico to the U.S.? I have many times and believe me the U.S. female border control/immigration police are most unpleasant to deal with. All with whom I've spoken to about this hope that their car is inspected everytime by a male. Does something unnatural happen to a woman when she puts on a uniform and works in position of authority? 
Title: Re: Misogyny within Tradition
Post by: St Paul on April 06, 2019, 09:41:18 PM
And also, if women are misbehaving in society today, it's because men allowed the situation to get to where it got.  Adam could have told Eve to pound sand.  Men today are so weak and effeminate.  They're addicted to porn, alcohol, and video games.  Men should be stepping up to the plate and acting like men if they want women to act like they should.
I agree with this.
We all call it the sin of Eve, but God did not punish them until Adam sinned.
Chivalry is nearly gone in the world.  True men are nearly gone.  
Title: Re: Misogyny within Tradition
Post by: forlorn on April 07, 2019, 04:47:45 AM
Anyone here ever cross the border from Mexico to the U.S.? I have many times and believe me the U.S. female border control/immigration police are most unpleasant to deal with. All with whom I've spoken to about this hope that their car is inspected everytime by a male. Does something unnatural happen to a woman when she puts on a uniform and works in position of authority?
Women in positions of power are afraid they won't be taken seriously(and why would they be, it's unnatural) so they try to imitate men and over-exaggerate in order to over-compensate for their softer natures and less intimidating statures.
Title: Re: Misogyny within Tradition
Post by: Matto on April 07, 2019, 07:08:50 AM
Chivalry is nearly gone in the world.  True men are nearly gone.  
There is an interesting (to me at least) theory that chivalry is anti-christian and a feminist corruption. If you think about the stories the theme is that of a man becoming a slave to woman (an overturning of the natural hierarchy between a man and woman) who is married to another man, coveting her, and if he is a good enough slave being rewarded with adultery with the married woman. Just a thought that I found interesting.
Title: Re: Misogyny within Tradition
Post by: St Paul on April 07, 2019, 08:40:35 AM
There is an interesting (to me at least) theory that chivalry is anti-christian and a feminist corruption. If you think about the stories the theme is that of a man becoming a slave to woman (an overturning of the natural hierarchy between a man and woman) who is married to another man, coveting her, and if he is a good enough slave being rewarded with adultery with the married woman. Just a thought that I found interesting.
I read about it in a book about st. Bernard.  Excellent book.
 Chivalry, in the new sense, rested on a vow (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15511a.htm) (to use their weapons chiefly for the protection of the weak and defenseless, especially women (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15687b.htm) and orphans (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11322b.htm), and of churches); it was this vow (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15511a.htm) which dignified the soldier, elevated him in his own esteem, and raised him almost to the level of the monk (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10487b.htm) in medieval (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10285c.htm) society (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14074a.htm)

This link explains it pretty well:
https://thecatholicmanshow.com/blog/5-virtues-chivalry/

Title: Re: Misogyny within Tradition
Post by: forlorn on April 07, 2019, 09:55:07 AM
There is an interesting (to me at least) theory that chivalry is anti-christian and a feminist corruption. If you think about the stories the theme is that of a man becoming a slave to woman (an overturning of the natural hierarchy between a man and woman) who is married to another man, coveting her, and if he is a good enough slave being rewarded with adultery with the married woman. Just a thought that I found interesting.
There is indeed a strange form of chivalry sometimes displayed in historical dramas where the knights basically try to seduce a Lady or Queen, and that's very immoral and wrong. But chivalry in the form of being polite and courteous isn't. 
Title: Re: Misogyny within Tradition
Post by: Matto on April 07, 2019, 10:22:48 AM
An interesting note on the death of chivalry, to me, is that many men on the internet have come to the conclusion that basically women do not want to be treated nicely, but would rather be abused. The whole "alpha male" and "beta male" concept where women love the "alphas" who abuse them (and dominate them) and have contempt for the "betas" who are nice to them. The constant refrains of "nice guys finish last" and "you're too nice". The success of Fifty Shades of Grey (which I have never read or watched so I don't know much about it) contributed to this idea I think. The strange related idea that what feminists really want is to be forced to wear a burka.

Society is in a strange place in my mind. Everyone (including myself) seems to be insane.
Title: Re: Misogyny within Tradition
Post by: Ladislaus on April 07, 2019, 11:05:48 AM
I don't buy the notion that chivalry is feminist.  Despite the popularized notion of it, chivalry was not limited to women but to children, the weak, the infirm, etc. ... as posted by St. Paul from St. Bernard.

It's in perfect line with the uniquely Christian notion that authority = servitude.  Our Lord make it clear that authority is given so that people can serve those under them.  We have authority over our children in order to help them, and the very same things goes with the authority husbands have over their wives.  It is not given for the person IN authority, so he can walk around full of himself and of his own importance and status, nor to lord it over others, as it were.

We can see this even in the design of nature.  Males are typically endowed with greater strength and aggressiveness so that they can protect the females and the offspring from predators ... while the females are endowed with the qualities suitable for nurturing the young.  Female animals usually stay in their nest with the young, while the males go out to look for food and otherwise provide protection.  Conversely, women are designed to be at home while the men go out and work.

Similarly, priests need to always be mindful of the fact that the priesthood was not given to them for their own glory, but rather so that God could bring grace through them to others.  So the priesthood was not given to them for themselves but for others.  No man is worthy of being a priest.  It's easy for a priest to get carried away with the respect and deference that the lay people have towards them into thinking that they are big shots.  That honor is being given to the Lord who lives and acts in them, and not to themselves.  We are showing reverence not primarily for, say, Richard Williamson, but for Our Lord.  So, in other words, the honor is paid materially to Richard Williamson, but formally to Our Lord.
Title: Re: Misogyny within Tradition
Post by: forlorn on April 07, 2019, 11:40:48 AM
An interesting note on the death of chivalry, to me, is that many men on the internet have come to the conclusion that basically women do not want to be treated nicely, but would rather be abused. The whole "alpha male" and "beta male" concept where women love the "alphas" who abuse them (and dominate them) and have contempt for the "betas" who are nice to them. The constant refrains of "nice guys finish last" and "you're too nice". The success of Fifty Shades of Grey (which I have never read or watched so I don't know much about it) contributed to this idea I think. The strange related idea that what feminists really want is to be forced to wear a burka.

Society is in a strange place in my mind. Everyone (including myself) seems to be insane.
100 years ago both men and women were predicting that feminism, women's suffrage, etc. would turn destroy masculinity and femininity and create a "mongrel generation". Well these days with women dressing and acting like men, men being more feminine than ever and afraid of "toxic masculinity", and transsɛҳuąƖs running around telling kids gender isn't real, it's clear that happened. 

What we're seeing today with feminists accusing white men of every kind of crime against them while inviting in Moslems to rape and pillage is a symptom of that I think. Feminists, and most modern non-Trad to lesser but varying degrees, are mentally ill and don't have an ounce of femininity left in them. The men are likewise castrated and have forgotten how to take charge and be men.
Title: Re: Misogyny within Tradition
Post by: St Paul on April 07, 2019, 12:23:59 PM
100 years ago both men and women were predicting that feminism, women's suffrage, etc. would turn destroy masculinity and femininity and create a "mongrel generation". Well these days with women dressing and acting like men, men being more feminine than ever and afraid of "toxic masculinity", and transsɛҳuąƖs running around telling kids gender isn't real, it's clear that happened.

What we're seeing today with feminists accusing white men of every kind of crime against them while inviting in Moslems to rape and pillage is a symptom of that I think. Feminists, and most modern non-Trad to lesser but varying degrees, are mentally ill and don't have an ounce of femininity left in them. The men are likewise castrated and have forgotten how to take charge and be men.
Unfortunately, men today who seek to attempt to "take charge and be a man", as ladislaus pointed out, equate that with being an abusive bully.

Men do not know the middle ground of where they are to be.  On the left is effeminancy, on the right an abusive tyrant.  Chivalry is right in the middle.  This is where men should strive to be.
Title: Re: Misogyny within Tradition
Post by: Innijo on April 07, 2019, 12:34:44 PM
From Walter Scott

O young Lochinvar is come out of the west, 
Through all the wide Border his steed was the best; 
And save his good broadsword he weapons had none, 
He rode all unarm’d, and he rode all alone. 
So faithful in love, and so dauntless in war, 
There never was knight like the young Lochinvar. 

He staid not for brake, and he stopp’d not for stone, 
He swam the Eske river where ford there was none; 
But ere he alighted at Netherby gate, 
The bride had consented, the gallant came late: 
For a laggard in love, and a dastard in war, 
Was to wed the fair Ellen of brave Lochinvar. 

So boldly he enter’d the Netherby Hall, 
Among bride’s-men, and kinsmen, and brothers and all: 
Then spoke the bride’s father, his hand on his sword, 
(For the poor craven bridegroom said never a word,) 
“O come ye in peace here, or come ye in war, 
Or to dance at our bridal, young Lord Lochinvar?” 

“I long woo’d your daughter, my suit you denied;— 
Love swells like the Solway, but ebbs like its tide— 
And now I am come, with this lost love of mine, 
To lead but one measure, drink one cup of wine. 
There are maidens in Scotland more lovely by far, 
That would gladly be bride to the young Lochinvar.” 

The bride kiss’d the goblet: the knight took it up, 
He quaff’d off the wine, and he threw down the cup. 
She look’d down to blush, and she look’d up to sigh, 
With a smile on her lips and a tear in her eye. 
He took her soft hand, ere her mother could bar,— 
“Now tread we a measure!” said young Lochinvar. 

So stately his form, and so lovely her face, 
That never a hall such a galliard did grace; 
While her mother did fret, and her father did fume, 
And the bridegroom stood dangling his bonnet and plume; 
And the bride-maidens whisper’d, “’twere better by far 
To have match’d our fair cousin with young Lochinvar.” 

One touch to her hand, and one word in her ear, 
When they reach’d the hall-door, and the charger stood near; 
So light to the croupe the fair lady he swung, 
So light to the saddle before her he sprung! 
“She is won! we are gone, over bank, bush, and scaur; 
They’ll have fleet steeds that follow,” quoth young Lochinvar. 

There was mounting ’mong Graemes of the Netherby clan; 
Forsters, Fenwicks, and Musgraves, they rode and they ran: 
There was racing and chasing on Cannobie Lee, 
But the lost bride of Netherby ne’er did they see. 
So daring in love, and so dauntless in war, 
Have ye e’er heard of gallant like young Lochinvar? 
Title: Re: Misogyny within Tradition
Post by: Matthew on April 07, 2019, 04:04:24 PM
Men do not know the middle ground of where they are to be.  On the left is effeminancy, on the right an abusive tyrant.  Chivalry is right in the middle.  This is where men should strive to be.


Close, but not quite.

Chivalry is ABOVE and in between the two extremes. This is an important distinction.

Every virtue has sins of EXCESS and DEFECT on either side of it. Virtue doesn't merely consist of going overboard 50% of the time and being deficient 50% of the time. Oftentimes the desired behavior is completely different from that of either extreme.

If we're supposed to serve chicken, can I serve blackened lumps that used to be chicken on one day, and raw chicken the next day? It all averages out, right?

Money: you can be a miser (too much care for money) or prodigal (wasting your resources = too little care for the material things God gave you). Being prudent and frugal is above and in between these two distortions or extremes.

Proper discipline of your children: There is sin by excess (being a harsh tyrant, punishing them for every minor infraction, yelling at them constantly, showing no love, only anger) and sin by defect (letting your children run wild, neglecting to ever correct or discipline them). The proper behavior of parents bears NO resemblance to either of these distorted, twisted extremes.

The reason you have to add "above" is because otherwise it sounds like you just average it out. OR, it sounds like a tyrant is halfway there, he just needs to backtrack a bit. Today I'll be a tyrant, tomorrow I'll completely ignore them. I'll burn the fish sticks on the outside and they'll still be frozen on the inside, so it will all balance or average out, right? NO!  Likewise, choosing to correct your children only half the time they need it would be poor parenting. It's not just a question of getting out a calculator and dividing by 2.

A real man is not half "macho man who beats his wife" and half "weak, indecisive soy boy who plays video games all day while his wife works". A real man has not the slightest relation to either of those extremes.

I could give other examples all day long.

I believe the key to avoiding both extremes is common sense and Prudence.
Title: Re: Misogyny within Tradition
Post by: forlorn on April 07, 2019, 04:39:35 PM
Unfortunately, men today who seek to attempt to "take charge and be a man", as ladislaus pointed out, equate that with being an abusive bully.

Men do not know the middle ground of where they are to be.  On the left is effeminancy, on the right an abusive tyrant.  Chivalry is right in the middle.  This is where men should strive to be.
The problem is we've(as a society) accepted feminism as the norm for so long that many young men today have no idea what men were like before feminism emasculated them. They don't have many role models to turn to, so they just make a guess and end up going for some wild extreme like the "Red Pill" or "Pick-Up Artists" who insist that treating women with any sort of courtesy is "beta".

Young women trying to reject feminism have a similar problem. They likewise have little to no role models of traditional women to turn to and don't know who they should imitate, so they often end up influenced by feminism no matter how much they try to reject it.
Title: Re: Misogyny within Tradition
Post by: Pax Vobis on April 07, 2019, 08:05:14 PM
I'd also like to point out that there's a difference between hating feminist women (which many are) and misogyny, which is contempt or prejudice of women.  It's not fair to label all men who are bitter as misogynists.  That's like saying that all quasi-feminist women are anti-catholic lesbians.  

St Paul gives the key to unlocking the mystery of the battle between the sexes and how to have a comfortable relationship with the opposite sex.  Women, who naturally give love, must give men respect.  Men, who naturally give respect, must give love.  If a man does not love a woman as she needs (i.e. listening, support), she will not respect him and her love will grow cold.  If he repeatedly ignores her, she will become disrespectful, aggressive and hateful.  If a woman disrespects a man, repeatedly, he will eventually stop loving her.  If it's abusive and constant, he will become hateful or bitter.

Feminism is one giant, organized, pervasive attitude of disrespect towards Western men.  Some men deserve this disrespect because they are self-centered losers.  Many men do not.

It's my opinion that this is a form of psychological warfare that is being pushed by the elites to (eventually) get a response and/or de-masculinize.  The elites know that men will not put up with the NWO, so they are attacking them at their core.  The elites are further ramping up this attack against caucasian males, since historically these men have the resources and mindset to fight back, and their Catholic heritage is a further anti-NWO problem which the elites want to stamp out.  Non-europeans (both male and female) aren't as much of a threat to the elites since they have mostly grown up poor and in socialized countries where they have been conditioned to comply.  Those men who eventually get tired of the feminist nonsense and the growing socialism (which are tied together), will eventually pick up arms and the elites will want to blame the men for their "aggression" as they start a cινιℓ ωαr.  I hope this doesn't happen but it's very possible.  Lord have mercy on us!
Title: Re: Misogyny within Tradition
Post by: St Paul on April 07, 2019, 11:20:00 PM
Chivalry entailed a vow.
There are no averages, no "this day tyrant, the next effeminate."  Chivalry is a lifestyle, so to speak; a way of living which all men, young and old, should strive to obtain.
Title: Re: Misogyny within Tradition
Post by: Nishant Xavier on April 08, 2019, 01:42:05 AM
What the world needs are Mary-like Christian women, who look to the Blessed Mother as the Model of Feminine Perfection to be Venerated and Imitated. The Blessed Mother is at once a model for Mothers, as well as Nuns, and women still seeking their vocation in life. To be Mary-like in dress, in speech, in thought and in every other way. That is what all Christian women should aspire for.

And for us men, we should strive to be like St. Joseph was, always hardworking, gentle, chivalrous, yet knowing he was the head. Even Our Mother Mary, and Our Lord Jesus Himself, respected St. Joseph our Patriarch as the Head of the Holy Family, thus showing us how much the natural order is important, in families, in societies and in the Church, and why it is dangerous and wrong to seek to subvert it. Yet, St. Joseph did not so much as insist on it, as rather strive to serve Our Lord and Our Lady himself, as we all should strive to also.

Priests should look to Our Lord Jesus Himself as the perfect model, holy, perfectly obedient to His parents while still with them, then after that entirely withdrawn from the world, seeking only to save souls, loving holy poverty and the Cross, and eschewing the false so-called wisdom of the world. Also, to St. John the Baptist, model of ascetism, and to St. Joseph himself, a model both to Fathers of families, and Fathers in the Church, by his watchful protection over the Holy Family, and his patronage for all of us.

Nuns, and women called to live a consecrated single life in the world, too have the best model in Mary. If one has sinned before coming to the Church, the example of St. Mary Magdalene shows how far it is possible to rise. Feminism is an evil ideology, and Catholic men and women alike should oppose it. But misogyny should have no place among Traditional Catholics, and let anti-feminism not become an excuse for women-hating. If it is true Eve sinned, it is also true Mary obeyed. It is also true Adam sinned, and that Christ obeyed.

The sin and disobedience of Adam and Eve has been repaired, cancelled and redeemed by the obedience of Jesus and Mary. Jesus as our Redeemer has redeemed women also just as much as men, and expiated original sin in all of us who are baptized; and in our Mother Mary, He has chosen a Woman to be Co-Redemptrix with Him, Mediatrix of all His Graces, and Mother of us all.

Let us strive to avoid the false ideology of neo-pagan Marxist feminism by men being masculine men and women being feminine women like the Saints have showed and taught us.