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Author Topic: Misogyny within Tradition  (Read 1933 times)

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Offline Matto

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Re: Misogyny within Tradition
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2019, 07:08:50 AM »
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  • Chivalry is nearly gone in the world.  True men are nearly gone.  
    There is an interesting (to me at least) theory that chivalry is anti-christian and a feminist corruption. If you think about the stories the theme is that of a man becoming a slave to woman (an overturning of the natural hierarchy between a man and woman) who is married to another man, coveting her, and if he is a good enough slave being rewarded with adultery with the married woman. Just a thought that I found interesting.
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    Offline St Paul

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    Re: Misogyny within Tradition
    « Reply #16 on: April 07, 2019, 08:40:35 AM »
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  • There is an interesting (to me at least) theory that chivalry is anti-christian and a feminist corruption. If you think about the stories the theme is that of a man becoming a slave to woman (an overturning of the natural hierarchy between a man and woman) who is married to another man, coveting her, and if he is a good enough slave being rewarded with adultery with the married woman. Just a thought that I found interesting.
    I read about it in a book about st. Bernard.  Excellent book.
     Chivalry, in the new sense, rested on a vow (to use their weapons chiefly for the protection of the weak and defenseless, especially women and orphans, and of churches); it was this vow which dignified the soldier, elevated him in his own esteem, and raised him almost to the level of the monk in medieval society

    This link explains it pretty well:
    https://thecatholicmanshow.com/blog/5-virtues-chivalry/



    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Misogyny within Tradition
    « Reply #17 on: April 07, 2019, 09:55:07 AM »
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  • There is an interesting (to me at least) theory that chivalry is anti-christian and a feminist corruption. If you think about the stories the theme is that of a man becoming a slave to woman (an overturning of the natural hierarchy between a man and woman) who is married to another man, coveting her, and if he is a good enough slave being rewarded with adultery with the married woman. Just a thought that I found interesting.
    There is indeed a strange form of chivalry sometimes displayed in historical dramas where the knights basically try to seduce a Lady or Queen, and that's very immoral and wrong. But chivalry in the form of being polite and courteous isn't. 

    Offline Matto

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    Re: Misogyny within Tradition
    « Reply #18 on: April 07, 2019, 10:22:48 AM »
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  • An interesting note on the death of chivalry, to me, is that many men on the internet have come to the conclusion that basically women do not want to be treated nicely, but would rather be abused. The whole "alpha male" and "beta male" concept where women love the "alphas" who abuse them (and dominate them) and have contempt for the "betas" who are nice to them. The constant refrains of "nice guys finish last" and "you're too nice". The success of Fifty Shades of Grey (which I have never read or watched so I don't know much about it) contributed to this idea I think. The strange related idea that what feminists really want is to be forced to wear a burka.

    Society is in a strange place in my mind. Everyone (including myself) seems to be insane.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Misogyny within Tradition
    « Reply #19 on: April 07, 2019, 11:05:48 AM »
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  • I don't buy the notion that chivalry is feminist.  Despite the popularized notion of it, chivalry was not limited to women but to children, the weak, the infirm, etc. ... as posted by St. Paul from St. Bernard.

    It's in perfect line with the uniquely Christian notion that authority = servitude.  Our Lord make it clear that authority is given so that people can serve those under them.  We have authority over our children in order to help them, and the very same things goes with the authority husbands have over their wives.  It is not given for the person IN authority, so he can walk around full of himself and of his own importance and status, nor to lord it over others, as it were.

    We can see this even in the design of nature.  Males are typically endowed with greater strength and aggressiveness so that they can protect the females and the offspring from predators ... while the females are endowed with the qualities suitable for nurturing the young.  Female animals usually stay in their nest with the young, while the males go out to look for food and otherwise provide protection.  Conversely, women are designed to be at home while the men go out and work.

    Similarly, priests need to always be mindful of the fact that the priesthood was not given to them for their own glory, but rather so that God could bring grace through them to others.  So the priesthood was not given to them for themselves but for others.  No man is worthy of being a priest.  It's easy for a priest to get carried away with the respect and deference that the lay people have towards them into thinking that they are big shots.  That honor is being given to the Lord who lives and acts in them, and not to themselves.  We are showing reverence not primarily for, say, Richard Williamson, but for Our Lord.  So, in other words, the honor is paid materially to Richard Williamson, but formally to Our Lord.


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Misogyny within Tradition
    « Reply #20 on: April 07, 2019, 11:40:48 AM »
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  • An interesting note on the death of chivalry, to me, is that many men on the internet have come to the conclusion that basically women do not want to be treated nicely, but would rather be abused. The whole "alpha male" and "beta male" concept where women love the "alphas" who abuse them (and dominate them) and have contempt for the "betas" who are nice to them. The constant refrains of "nice guys finish last" and "you're too nice". The success of Fifty Shades of Grey (which I have never read or watched so I don't know much about it) contributed to this idea I think. The strange related idea that what feminists really want is to be forced to wear a burka.

    Society is in a strange place in my mind. Everyone (including myself) seems to be insane.
    100 years ago both men and women were predicting that feminism, women's suffrage, etc. would turn destroy masculinity and femininity and create a "mongrel generation". Well these days with women dressing and acting like men, men being more feminine than ever and afraid of "toxic masculinity", and transsɛҳuąƖs running around telling kids gender isn't real, it's clear that happened. 

    What we're seeing today with feminists accusing white men of every kind of crime against them while inviting in Moslems to rape and pillage is a symptom of that I think. Feminists, and most modern non-Trad to lesser but varying degrees, are mentally ill and don't have an ounce of femininity left in them. The men are likewise castrated and have forgotten how to take charge and be men.

    Offline St Paul

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    Re: Misogyny within Tradition
    « Reply #21 on: April 07, 2019, 12:23:59 PM »
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  • 100 years ago both men and women were predicting that feminism, women's suffrage, etc. would turn destroy masculinity and femininity and create a "mongrel generation". Well these days with women dressing and acting like men, men being more feminine than ever and afraid of "toxic masculinity", and transsɛҳuąƖs running around telling kids gender isn't real, it's clear that happened.

    What we're seeing today with feminists accusing white men of every kind of crime against them while inviting in Moslems to rape and pillage is a symptom of that I think. Feminists, and most modern non-Trad to lesser but varying degrees, are mentally ill and don't have an ounce of femininity left in them. The men are likewise castrated and have forgotten how to take charge and be men.
    Unfortunately, men today who seek to attempt to "take charge and be a man", as ladislaus pointed out, equate that with being an abusive bully.

    Men do not know the middle ground of where they are to be.  On the left is effeminancy, on the right an abusive tyrant.  Chivalry is right in the middle.  This is where men should strive to be.

    Offline Innijo

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    Re: Misogyny within Tradition
    « Reply #22 on: April 07, 2019, 12:34:44 PM »
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  • From Walter Scott

    O young Lochinvar is come out of the west, 
    Through all the wide Border his steed was the best; 
    And save his good broadsword he weapons had none, 
    He rode all unarm’d, and he rode all alone. 
    So faithful in love, and so dauntless in war, 
    There never was knight like the young Lochinvar. 

    He staid not for brake, and he stopp’d not for stone, 
    He swam the Eske river where ford there was none; 
    But ere he alighted at Netherby gate, 
    The bride had consented, the gallant came late: 
    For a laggard in love, and a dastard in war, 
    Was to wed the fair Ellen of brave Lochinvar. 

    So boldly he enter’d the Netherby Hall, 
    Among bride’s-men, and kinsmen, and brothers and all: 
    Then spoke the bride’s father, his hand on his sword, 
    (For the poor craven bridegroom said never a word,) 
    “O come ye in peace here, or come ye in war, 
    Or to dance at our bridal, young Lord Lochinvar?” 

    “I long woo’d your daughter, my suit you denied;— 
    Love swells like the Solway, but ebbs like its tide— 
    And now I am come, with this lost love of mine, 
    To lead but one measure, drink one cup of wine. 
    There are maidens in Scotland more lovely by far, 
    That would gladly be bride to the young Lochinvar.” 

    The bride kiss’d the goblet: the knight took it up, 
    He quaff’d off the wine, and he threw down the cup. 
    She look’d down to blush, and she look’d up to sigh, 
    With a smile on her lips and a tear in her eye. 
    He took her soft hand, ere her mother could bar,— 
    “Now tread we a measure!” said young Lochinvar. 

    So stately his form, and so lovely her face, 
    That never a hall such a galliard did grace; 
    While her mother did fret, and her father did fume, 
    And the bridegroom stood dangling his bonnet and plume; 
    And the bride-maidens whisper’d, “’twere better by far 
    To have match’d our fair cousin with young Lochinvar.” 

    One touch to her hand, and one word in her ear, 
    When they reach’d the hall-door, and the charger stood near; 
    So light to the croupe the fair lady he swung, 
    So light to the saddle before her he sprung! 
    “She is won! we are gone, over bank, bush, and scaur; 
    They’ll have fleet steeds that follow,” quoth young Lochinvar. 

    There was mounting ’mong Graemes of the Netherby clan; 
    Forsters, Fenwicks, and Musgraves, they rode and they ran: 
    There was racing and chasing on Cannobie Lee, 
    But the lost bride of Netherby ne’er did they see. 
    So daring in love, and so dauntless in war, 
    Have ye e’er heard of gallant like young Lochinvar? 


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Misogyny within Tradition
    « Reply #23 on: April 07, 2019, 04:04:24 PM »
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  • Men do not know the middle ground of where they are to be.  On the left is effeminancy, on the right an abusive tyrant.  Chivalry is right in the middle.  This is where men should strive to be.


    Close, but not quite.

    Chivalry is ABOVE and in between the two extremes. This is an important distinction.

    Every virtue has sins of EXCESS and DEFECT on either side of it. Virtue doesn't merely consist of going overboard 50% of the time and being deficient 50% of the time. Oftentimes the desired behavior is completely different from that of either extreme.

    If we're supposed to serve chicken, can I serve blackened lumps that used to be chicken on one day, and raw chicken the next day? It all averages out, right?

    Money: you can be a miser (too much care for money) or prodigal (wasting your resources = too little care for the material things God gave you). Being prudent and frugal is above and in between these two distortions or extremes.

    Proper discipline of your children: There is sin by excess (being a harsh tyrant, punishing them for every minor infraction, yelling at them constantly, showing no love, only anger) and sin by defect (letting your children run wild, neglecting to ever correct or discipline them). The proper behavior of parents bears NO resemblance to either of these distorted, twisted extremes.

    The reason you have to add "above" is because otherwise it sounds like you just average it out. OR, it sounds like a tyrant is halfway there, he just needs to backtrack a bit. Today I'll be a tyrant, tomorrow I'll completely ignore them. I'll burn the fish sticks on the outside and they'll still be frozen on the inside, so it will all balance or average out, right? NO!  Likewise, choosing to correct your children only half the time they need it would be poor parenting. It's not just a question of getting out a calculator and dividing by 2.

    A real man is not half "macho man who beats his wife" and half "weak, indecisive soy boy who plays video games all day while his wife works". A real man has not the slightest relation to either of those extremes.

    I could give other examples all day long.

    I believe the key to avoiding both extremes is common sense and Prudence.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Misogyny within Tradition
    « Reply #24 on: April 07, 2019, 04:39:35 PM »
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  • Unfortunately, men today who seek to attempt to "take charge and be a man", as ladislaus pointed out, equate that with being an abusive bully.

    Men do not know the middle ground of where they are to be.  On the left is effeminancy, on the right an abusive tyrant.  Chivalry is right in the middle.  This is where men should strive to be.
    The problem is we've(as a society) accepted feminism as the norm for so long that many young men today have no idea what men were like before feminism emasculated them. They don't have many role models to turn to, so they just make a guess and end up going for some wild extreme like the "Red Pill" or "Pick-Up Artists" who insist that treating women with any sort of courtesy is "beta".

    Young women trying to reject feminism have a similar problem. They likewise have little to no role models of traditional women to turn to and don't know who they should imitate, so they often end up influenced by feminism no matter how much they try to reject it.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Misogyny within Tradition
    « Reply #25 on: April 07, 2019, 08:05:14 PM »
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  • I'd also like to point out that there's a difference between hating feminist women (which many are) and misogyny, which is contempt or prejudice of women.  It's not fair to label all men who are bitter as misogynists.  That's like saying that all quasi-feminist women are anti-catholic lesbians.  

    St Paul gives the key to unlocking the mystery of the battle between the sexes and how to have a comfortable relationship with the opposite sex.  Women, who naturally give love, must give men respect.  Men, who naturally give respect, must give love.  If a man does not love a woman as she needs (i.e. listening, support), she will not respect him and her love will grow cold.  If he repeatedly ignores her, she will become disrespectful, aggressive and hateful.  If a woman disrespects a man, repeatedly, he will eventually stop loving her.  If it's abusive and constant, he will become hateful or bitter.

    Feminism is one giant, organized, pervasive attitude of disrespect towards Western men.  Some men deserve this disrespect because they are self-centered losers.  Many men do not.

    It's my opinion that this is a form of psychological warfare that is being pushed by the elites to (eventually) get a response and/or de-masculinize.  The elites know that men will not put up with the NWO, so they are attacking them at their core.  The elites are further ramping up this attack against caucasian males, since historically these men have the resources and mindset to fight back, and their Catholic heritage is a further anti-NWO problem which the elites want to stamp out.  Non-europeans (both male and female) aren't as much of a threat to the elites since they have mostly grown up poor and in socialized countries where they have been conditioned to comply.  Those men who eventually get tired of the feminist nonsense and the growing socialism (which are tied together), will eventually pick up arms and the elites will want to blame the men for their "aggression" as they start a cινιℓ ωαr.  I hope this doesn't happen but it's very possible.  Lord have mercy on us!


    Offline St Paul

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    Re: Misogyny within Tradition
    « Reply #26 on: April 07, 2019, 11:20:00 PM »
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  • Chivalry entailed a vow.
    There are no averages, no "this day tyrant, the next effeminate."  Chivalry is a lifestyle, so to speak; a way of living which all men, young and old, should strive to obtain.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Misogyny within Tradition
    « Reply #27 on: April 08, 2019, 01:42:05 AM »
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  • What the world needs are Mary-like Christian women, who look to the Blessed Mother as the Model of Feminine Perfection to be Venerated and Imitated. The Blessed Mother is at once a model for Mothers, as well as Nuns, and women still seeking their vocation in life. To be Mary-like in dress, in speech, in thought and in every other way. That is what all Christian women should aspire for.

    And for us men, we should strive to be like St. Joseph was, always hardworking, gentle, chivalrous, yet knowing he was the head. Even Our Mother Mary, and Our Lord Jesus Himself, respected St. Joseph our Patriarch as the Head of the Holy Family, thus showing us how much the natural order is important, in families, in societies and in the Church, and why it is dangerous and wrong to seek to subvert it. Yet, St. Joseph did not so much as insist on it, as rather strive to serve Our Lord and Our Lady himself, as we all should strive to also.

    Priests should look to Our Lord Jesus Himself as the perfect model, holy, perfectly obedient to His parents while still with them, then after that entirely withdrawn from the world, seeking only to save souls, loving holy poverty and the Cross, and eschewing the false so-called wisdom of the world. Also, to St. John the Baptist, model of ascetism, and to St. Joseph himself, a model both to Fathers of families, and Fathers in the Church, by his watchful protection over the Holy Family, and his patronage for all of us.

    Nuns, and women called to live a consecrated single life in the world, too have the best model in Mary. If one has sinned before coming to the Church, the example of St. Mary Magdalene shows how far it is possible to rise. Feminism is an evil ideology, and Catholic men and women alike should oppose it. But misogyny should have no place among Traditional Catholics, and let anti-feminism not become an excuse for women-hating. If it is true Eve sinned, it is also true Mary obeyed. It is also true Adam sinned, and that Christ obeyed.

    The sin and disobedience of Adam and Eve has been repaired, cancelled and redeemed by the obedience of Jesus and Mary. Jesus as our Redeemer has redeemed women also just as much as men, and expiated original sin in all of us who are baptized; and in our Mother Mary, He has chosen a Woman to be Co-Redemptrix with Him, Mediatrix of all His Graces, and Mother of us all.

    Let us strive to avoid the false ideology of neo-pagan Marxist feminism by men being masculine men and women being feminine women like the Saints have showed and taught us.
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.