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Author Topic: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men  (Read 7451 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
« Reply #90 on: November 14, 2017, 10:58:26 AM »
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    • There really is no point in trying to talk to a person who thinks he can read minds. He responds to what he imagines one is thinking rather than what one has plainly said. He makes up things about one's motives rather than addressing actual arguments. When one explains what one was actually thinking or feeling, he accuses one of lying, for he believes he knows a person's thoughts better than the person himself. 

    Attempting to communicate with people like this is merely an exercise in frustration. I recommend that everyone avoid this situation as much as possible. 

    Perhaps I should add this to the "How not to post in debates" thread. 
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #91 on: November 14, 2017, 11:50:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on November 14, 2017, 10:58:26 AM
    There really is no point in trying to talk to a person who thinks he can read minds. He responds to what he imagines one is thinking rather than what one has plainly said.

    Nonsense.  You can make valid inferences from things like tone and body language and even the choice of words/phrases that someone decides to use, words which have connotations.  There's a ton of non-verbal communication between human beings.  So, for instance, I can write something here on CI that could be construed as a harsh criticism whereas it might have in fact been a light-hearted tongue-in-cheek comment.  But if I were to say the same thing in person ... with a smile ... it would be understood as the light-hearted joke that it was.  That's why they invented emoticons or emojis for written communication.  If your tone might otherwise be ambiguous, you use one of those.  But in normal human communication, there's a lot of non-verbal information that is valid nonetheless.
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    • "Lord, have mercy."
    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #92 on: November 14, 2017, 11:57:40 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on November 14, 2017, 10:58:26 AM
    There really is no point in trying to talk to a person who thinks he can read minds. He responds to what he imagines one is thinking rather than what one has plainly said. He makes up things about one's motives rather than addressing actual arguments. ... Attempting to communicate with people like this is merely an exercise in frustration. I recommend that everyone avoid this situation as much as possible.

    ...
    Yes ma'am and, pretty-please, likewise.
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    Offline songbird

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #93 on: November 14, 2017, 12:57:10 PM »
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    • When the bible says that "husband" is the head of the family, he best understand, that he, the husband must answer to "who", Our God of course!  A wife is in understanding of this.  Both must help each other to be a saint.  A husband can not ask or imply the family to sin.  Then he is out of place.  He the husband is to treat his wife as Christ's Church.  That says a lot!  If he does not, the wife , according to the bible, Gods' words, is to approach her husband.  Then she can ask for a witness or 2 others to approach him.

    The Law says, treat your neighbor as yourself.  That goes for any one.  Yes, a husband should be the head of the home.  He best have a Rosary with the family, he best do as Christ would Love His Church.  Again, it goes for either wife or husband.  

    When we spank our children, it is to bring to light and a reminder of their evil behavior, and spanking is mortification and can be an embarrassment to the child.  I will slap a child's hand before they touch an outlet, out of love!  

    To slap a wife with adultery or husband does not take care of the issue in the soul and mind of that person that you can not see.  A priest does not slap penitents, Our Lady would not approach a sinner in this way either.

    When people say no to God and do their own thing, and are in Mortal Sin, slapping and such does not make things right.  Only would cause drift and parting.
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    • "Lord, have mercy."
    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #94 on: November 14, 2017, 01:15:49 PM »
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    • Guess it was a good thing that bishops quit giving confirmands the "Pope Hand" then. 
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #95 on: November 14, 2017, 01:26:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: songbird on November 14, 2017, 12:57:10 PM
    To slap a wife with adultery or husband does not take care of the issue in the soul and mind of that person that you can not see.  A priest does not slap penitents, Our Lady would not approach a sinner in this way either.

    When people say no to God and do their own thing, and are in Mortal Sin, slapping and such does not make things right.  Only would cause drift and parting.
    St Thomas Aquinas says that it is permissible to whip a wife for adultery. Are you so confident in your opinions that you would disagree with him? As far as I can tell his teaching is what the Church taught for most of her history.

    I am not advising anyone to try this now. It is clearly imprudent in our circuмstances. But I do not understand how anyone feels qualified to say that millions of past Catholics were wrong about this. We are supposed to be traditional Catholics here. We don't just cite a couple of Bible verses and use that as justification to ignore traditional teaching and practices.
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    Offline songbird

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #96 on: November 14, 2017, 06:29:47 PM »
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    • Christ is above St. Thomas.  Mary Magdalene was not whipped.  Men were ready to stone her.  Will you go over Christ's head Jaynek.  
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #97 on: November 14, 2017, 09:25:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: songbird on November 14, 2017, 06:29:47 PM
    Christ is above St. Thomas.  Mary Magdalene was not whipped.  Men were ready to stone her.  Will you go over Christ's head Jaynek.  
    Obviously St Thomas is not above Christ. But St Thomas had a much better understanding of Scripture than you do and realized that Our Lord never gave a command which forbids the punishing of adultery. In fact, He acknowledged that the Old Testament law which deemed it punishable by death was still in effect. He showed mercy to the woman caught in adultery; He did not change the law at that time.

    You really shouldn't be trying to interpret Scripture for yourself like this. You don't seem to have the training for it. Besides, it is a Protestant way of approaching the issue.
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    • "Lord, have mercy."
    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #98 on: November 15, 2017, 01:55:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on November 14, 2017, 09:25:03 PM
    Obviously St Thomas is not above Christ. But St Thomas had a much better understanding of Scripture than you do and realized that Our Lord never gave a command which forbids the punishing of adultery. In fact, He acknowledged that the Old Testament law which deemed it punishable by death was still in effect. He showed mercy to the woman caught in adultery; He did not change the law at that time.

    You really shouldn't be trying to interpret Scripture for yourself like this. You don't seem to have the training for it. Besides, it is a Protestant way of approaching the issue.
    Careful ma'am, or be as fun-at-parties "popular" as I...

    Kidding aside, even a careful solo read (not that one should) of any "version" or translation that I know of doesn't do for her what she wishes. (presuming that she is correct in equating this woman with S. Mary Magdalene; I've not seen anything absolutely conclusive; if not, it would be handy to know exactly what she is referring. It really isn't necessary either way for this point)

    But, just one example from one far better (emph./form/layout DZ P);

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    He did not say, "Stone her not", lest He should seem to speak contrary to the law; but God forbid that He should say, "Stone her". For He came not to destroy that which He found, but to seek that which was lost. What then did He answer? "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her". This is the voice of justice. Let the sinner be punished, but not by sinners; the law carried into effect, but not by transgressors of the law.

    S. Augustine, Tract. XXXIII 5
    Please don't any let this be cause for recommencement of more rhetoric, sophistry, and backpedaling.


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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #99 on: November 15, 2017, 02:03:31 AM »
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    • Quote from: DZ PLEASE on November 15, 2017, 01:55:43 AM
    ... know exactly what she is referring to. ...

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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    • "Lord, have mercy."
    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #100 on: November 15, 2017, 02:20:11 AM »
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    • It's going to be ironic, if unsurprising, to get beat over the head with "DON'T JUDGE!"
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #101 on: November 15, 2017, 02:59:40 AM »
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    • There is some precedent for identifying the woman caught in adultery with St. Mary Magdalene, but the Church has not taught this definitively and we are free to think otherwise. 

    I wanted to tell songbird some background before but did not have time. This story tells of another attempt by the Pharisees to trap our Lord. The law which they were pretending to follow stated that both the man and woman were supposed to be stoned. Bringing only the woman was unjust and the crowd knew it. If Our Lord had said to stone her they would have thought He was unjust. If He had said to release her the Pharisees would have claimed that Our Lord was setting Himself against the Law. Our Lord outsmarted them by choosing neither option. 

    His words "Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone" do not mean that sins may never be punished. They do not mean that adultery may never be punished. He was addressing people who were misusing and manipulating the Law for evil motives. They had no right to punish. 
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #102 on: November 15, 2017, 03:09:46 AM »
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    • Two words as a starting point, for any sincere; "Catena Aurea"
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #103 on: November 15, 2017, 03:14:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on November 15, 2017, 02:59:40 AM
    There is some precedent for identifying the woman caught in adultery with St. Mary Magdalene, but the Church has not taught this definitively and we are free to think otherwise.

    I wanted to tell songbird some background before but did not have time. This story tells of another attempt by the Pharisees to trap our Lord. The law which they were pretending to follow stated that both the man and woman were supposed to be stoned. Bringing only the woman was unjust and the crowd knew it. If Our Lord had said to stone her they would have thought He was unjust. If He had said to release her the Pharisees would have claimed that Our Lord was setting Himself against the Law. Our Lord outsmarted them by choosing neither option.

    His words "Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone" do not mean that sins may never be punished. They do not mean that adultery may never be punished. He was addressing people who were misusing and manipulating the Law for evil motives. They had no right to punish.
    Additionally, is it possible that at least one of these would-be "stoners", were on the wrong end of the rock?
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #104 on: November 15, 2017, 06:14:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on November 14, 2017, 01:26:25 PM
    St Thomas Aquinas says that it is permissible to whip a wife for adultery. Are you so confident in your opinions that you would disagree with him?

    Why yes, yes I am.  I also disagree with him about the Immaculate Conception.
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