I once read a private revelation, maybe from St. Bridget, where Our Lord Jesus Christ said that when a man wished to prevent his wife from commiting adultery, he used every possible means, including threatening her or using corporal punishment; and likewise when God wishes to prevent us from commiting sin, He uses every possible means.

It is not a sin to slap one's wife when she has commited adultery or when she threatens to do it.

In liberal societies, women are tyrants: they are proud, nasty, unfaithful, and have harems, so to speak.

I don't know if this helps or harms you, Ladislaus, but I think the distinctions you've made in this thread are things Catholics need to hear on a regular basis. They need to be preached from the pulpit and in adult catechism classes. Anytime a priest has the chance, he should take it. I was very hesitant to even click on this post (must be feeling brave today) but am happy I did. It restored a little bit of my faith in such threads.

I have many times observed the treatment you describe with the mentalities described. Thankfully my own husband is very considerate of me and it has done nothing but wonders for us as a couple, but he has a couple of brothers who tried to "educate" him when we were first married. In their eyes he was not to take my needs, opinions or concerns into consideration at all. They are by far not the only ones who become selfish, inconsiderate jerks and try to pass that off as part of their vocation as husbands. There are many good men out there to be sure, but there are also many whose concept of authority and how to wield it is quite warped. It's unfortunate because people in the world would use these as examples of how our Faith is misogynistic and harmful to women, when in fact women came to be well loved and better treated because of our Faith. But as always, the devil is in the details and it all greatly depends on the proper distinctions being made and understood.

It goes without saying but the Holy Family is a fascinating and beautiful example in so many ways.

Indeed, this attitude is all too common among Traditional Catholic men.  And, ironically, it generally causes a reaction among their wives and women in general TOWARDS feminist attitudes.  Conversely, the more respect and honor a husband shows to his wife, the more naturally inclined she is (if she's at all of good will) to be submissive.  And, yes, some of these types have attempted to edumacate me about the matter as well.  On the thread about wife-beating (aka "corporal punishment"), one of these guys called me a "pervert" (and a liberal, a fag, and various other assorted things) for holding that it's wrong for a husband to lay violent hands on his wife.

Good posts by both. 

Corporal punishment has always been a part of the natural order, but it is lawful only when the wife tries to prevail over her husband with much pride or when she commits great sins.

See here.

Thanks for the fascinating citation.  I had not seen this source before.

I don't know how representative forums are of the Trad community in general, but I see quite a large number of proud, hostile, uncharitable posts on just about every Trad forum I've ever visited or joined. Tons of bickering and quarreling and name calling. Probably some of those posts were made by trolls, but I'm sure many were by regular folks just being themselves. I don't know why there is so much fractiousness and lack of charity on so many Trad forums, but I think that attitude would likely contribute to misogynous tendencies.

I've been involved in online discussion groups for around 25 years.  I have seen that sort of behaviour on all of them.  The only thing that seems to affect it is having moderators around to suppress it.  It does not seem related to the religion or sex of the participants.  I have encountered thoroughly nasty women, as well as men.  It is admittedly troubling to see such things in Catholics, since we should know better, but not especially surprising.

I think it would be rather difficult to determine if any of the unpleasantness were specifically due to misogyny rather than the general human condition.

I've been thinking about this some more and I am leaning toward the view that Catholics should not even use the word "misogyny".  It is a word, like "antisemitism" and "homophobia," which has been coined/appropriated to promote an anti-Catholic agenda.  The word "misogyny" is, in recent times, primarily used to support the feminist view of the male-female relationship as a variation of Marxist class warfare.  It is so important to resist that view that we need to avoid its typical terminology.

Feminism trains women to think of men as the enemy - violent, dangerous, threatening. For me, as a woman, I take a stand against feminism by consciously thinking well of men.  This comes very easily for me, since I am married to a very good man and he is the man whom I know best.

One reason I don't have problems with the idea of the husband's authority is that I have complete trust that my husband would never misuse it.  We have been married for 37 years and he has shown himself to consistently put my welfare before his own comfort and convenience.  I trust him with the authority to command my obedience.  I trust him with the right to the marriage debt.  I would trust him, if we lived in a society that accepted a husband's right to use corporal punishment (as our ancestors in the Faith did), to use that right justly.  I would trust him to give his life to save mine, if such a situation were to arise.

And my understanding of men is based on my husband.  He is not simply an individual but the type through which I view men in general.  I expect men, especially trad men, normally to be good people.  I realize that there are exceptions.  I know that there are men who do bad things.  But they do these things, not because it is usual for male persons, but because it is a reflection of the fallen human condition.

It is very natural for me to extend my positive feelings about my husband toward men in general.  I would probably do it to some extent without even thinking about it.  However, I also make a conscious decision to think this way because I see it as a way of resisting feminism.

I've been thinking about this some more and I am leaning toward the view that Catholics should not even use the word "misogyny".

Couldn't disagree with you more.  Misogyny is alive and well among Traditional Catholics ... and it needs to be called out for what it is and not white-washed as nothing more than the principled assertion of a husband's superiority of rank over his wife.  Indeed, the modern world abuses this term in reference to the latter, but simply because the modern world misues it doesn't mean that it's not real.  I've been called a misogynist by some extended family for simply stating that women cannot be ordained to the priesthood.  But we're Traditional Catholics here and understand that it's not misogyny.  Now, if you don't have a Catholic understanding of the priesthood, then you might easily think of it as misogyny.  There was a guy at work who said that Catholics were misogynist for this reason.  Once I explained to him what Catholic theology of the priesthood was, then he understood.  I told him, "You obviously don't believe this, but just understand that we have serious theological reasons for why women can't be ordained priests."  He then backed away understanding that, given the premises of Catholic theology, this was not misogynist.

Do you have an alternate term you'd like to propose?

I apologize for my lack of clarity and any confusion I may have caused.

Wait your turn...







 :)

I saw claims in another thread that misogyny is common among trads.  I have not see this myself, but I have few opportunities to observe men outside my family.  I haven't seen anything among the men I see at church that seems wrong.  On forums, I have seen men expressing anger and frustration with feminism, but I don't think this is misogyny.

I am starting a new thread because this topic seems tangential to the thread where I saw the claims.  Also it was in the anonymous sub-forum which I really dislike.  

our society is still misogynistic
women are expected to subservient to men. I feel that is more pronounced in the Midwest than maybe other places. I am just going off my own experiences/observations