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Author Topic: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men  (Read 7460 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2017, 01:55:25 PM »
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    • Our Lady is [obviously] superior to me ... simpliciter.

    But I am superior to Our Lady ... secundum quid, that is, quoad naturam.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secundum_quid
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #16 on: November 01, 2017, 01:58:14 PM »
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    • So one way to define misogyny, thanks to the developments in this thread, would be for a someone to consider women inferior to men simpliciter simply by virtue of the fact that they are inferior secundum quid ... quoad ordinem.

    Because you did not understand this, Jaynek, this very well may have led your mind to embrace various misogynist attitudes yourself.
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    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #17 on: November 01, 2017, 02:07:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 01, 2017, 01:52:35 PM
    You're missing the context for this quotation.  Jaynek stated that men are superior to women.  Since I am a man, why I am not superior to Our Lady?  I answered this in the previous post.
    I understood your post perfectly well.
    I was not answering your question, but merely stating that those who believe that The Most Pure Virgin is inferior have accepted the lie of Satan who is pride and arrogance personified.

    Our Lady who is Queen of the Angels and Queen of Heaven is far superior to us in all manner: in her strength, in her beauty, in sanctity, in purity, in her power, etc.
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    Lord have mercy.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #18 on: November 01, 2017, 02:10:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 01, 2017, 01:52:35 PM
    You're missing the context for this quotation.  Jaynek stated that men are superior to women.  Since I am a man, why I am not superior to Our Lady?  I answered this in the previous post.
    I did not state that men are superior to women.  I said that this was the position of St. Thomas Aquinas and asked if you thought this made him a misogynist.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #19 on: November 01, 2017, 02:15:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 01, 2017, 01:58:14 PM
    So one way to define misogyny, thanks to the developments in this thread, would be for a someone to consider women inferior to men simpliciter simply by virtue of the fact that they are inferior secundum quid ... quoad ordinem.

    Because you did not understand this, Jaynek, this very well may have led your mind to embrace various misogynist attitudes yourself.
    I understand what St. Thomas said about women and I understand the difference between categorical and general statements.  

    I do not understand why you think you have a right to claim that I have misogynist attitudes.  You know very little about me or my views.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #20 on: November 01, 2017, 03:13:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on November 01, 2017, 12:17:04 PM
    St. Thomas Aquinas taught that women are inferior to men.  Do you consider him a misogynist?

    My point, Jaynek, in my previous posts was to say that your question has a false premise.  St. Thomas Aquinas did NOT teach that women are inferior to men ... as per my previous posts.  You are very slick in how you change the subject.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #21 on: November 01, 2017, 03:14:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on November 01, 2017, 02:15:40 PM
    I understand what St. Thomas said about women and I understand the difference between categorical and general statements.  


    Well, then, you apparently failed to put these two together when you falsely claimed that St. Thomas taught that women are inferior to men categorically.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #22 on: November 01, 2017, 03:19:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on November 01, 2017, 02:15:40 PM
    I do not understand why you think you have a right to claim that I have misogynist attitudes.  You know very little about me or my views.

    I have made inferences from your posts.  You have not once said anything in support of a woman's right to be treated a certain way by her husband.  Whenever I have mentioned certain inappropriate behaviors and attitudes from men towards women, you have essentially said that it's always the woman's fault, etc.  You've never met a man who has ever wronged his wife or treated her poorly.   You're always defending men and all manner of ill behavior by men ... against any complaints of impropriety, invariably shifting the blame towards the women.  In this tendency, readers will forgive me if I detect misogyny.  I have some suspicions about why you are this way, but I'll keep them to myself.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #23 on: November 01, 2017, 03:25:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 01, 2017, 03:14:18 PM
    Well, then, you apparently failed to put these two together when you falsely claimed that St. Thomas taught that women are inferior to men categorically.
    I never claimed that.  I said that St. Thomas taught that women are inferior.  I did not use the word "categorically."  Since you are presumably familiar with what he said, I did not think it necessary to qualify it further for my meaning to be clear.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #24 on: November 01, 2017, 03:29:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on November 01, 2017, 03:25:50 PM
    I said that St. Thomas taught that women are inferior.

    You made this statement without qualification, and therefore it's a categorical assertion.  Your statement reads as if you were claimed that St. Thomas considered the inferior simpliciter.  Indeed, if St. Thomas would have taught that they are inferior simpliciter, then, yes, I would consider him misogynist.  But he did not teach that, so he is not therefore a misogynist.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #25 on: November 01, 2017, 03:31:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on November 01, 2017, 03:25:50 PM
    Since you are presumably familiar with what he said, I did not think it necessary to qualify it further for my meaning to be clear.
     
    OK, now you're just lying to save face.  Sorry, but you clearly did not know these distinctions.  When I asked you about them, you claimed it was some kind of trick question.

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #26 on: November 01, 2017, 03:38:49 PM »
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    • I stated that there was a missing distinction and then asked you

    Quote
    Before laying it out, let me ask you:

    Is Our Blessed Mother inferior to me?

    You refused to answer this and claimed it was a trick question.  If you knew these distinctions and knew how they applied to this question, there's absolutely no trick to it whatsoever.  You would have answered that Our Blessed Mother is superior to me simpliciter but inferior secundum quid ... in so far as her female nature.

    No trick at all.  But you claim that you understood this all along.  You have now been exposed as so invested in your ego that you'll make stuff up rather than admit ignorance about anything.  "Yeah, I knew this all along." ... even though earlier it was evident that you did not by your inability to answer my question.  Your inner feminist has manifested herself.

    Enjoy this thread without me.  I will not continue wasting my time on someone like that.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #27 on: November 01, 2017, 03:45:07 PM »
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    • That works out well.  I do not engage in discussions with people who call me a liar.
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    Offline wallflower

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #28 on: November 01, 2017, 06:56:27 PM »
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    • I don't know if this helps or harms you, Ladislaus, but I think the distinctions you've made in this thread are things Catholics need to hear on a regular basis. They need to be preached from the pulpit and in adult catechism classes. Anytime a priest has the chance, he should take it. I was very hesitant to even click on this post (must be feeling brave today) but am happy I did. It restored a little bit of my faith in such threads.

    I have many times observed the treatment you describe with the mentalities described. Thankfully my own husband is very considerate of me and it has done nothing but wonders for us as a couple, but he has a couple of brothers who tried to "educate" him when we were first married. In their eyes he was not to take my needs, opinions or concerns into consideration at all. They are by far not the only ones who become selfish, inconsiderate jerks and try to pass that off as part of their vocation as husbands. There are many good men out there to be sure, but there are also many whose concept of authority and how to wield it is quite warped. It's unfortunate because people in the world would use these as examples of how our Faith is misogynistic and harmful to women, when in fact women came to be well loved and better treated because of our Faith. But as always, the devil is in the details and it all greatly depends on the proper distinctions being made and understood. 

    It goes without saying but the Holy Family is a fascinating and beautiful example in so many ways.

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Misogyny and Traditional Catholic Men
    « Reply #29 on: November 01, 2017, 08:11:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: wallflower on November 01, 2017, 06:56:27 PM
    I have many times observed the treatment you describe with the mentalities described. Thankfully my own husband is very considerate of me and it has done nothing but wonders for us as a couple, but he has a couple of brothers who tried to "educate" him when we were first married. In their eyes he was not to take my needs, opinions or concerns into consideration at all. They are by far not the only ones who become selfish, inconsiderate jerks and try to pass that off as part of their vocation as husbands. There are many good men out there to be sure, but there are also many whose concept of authority and how to wield it is quite warped. It's unfortunate because people in the world would use these as examples of how our Faith is misogynistic and harmful to women, when in fact women came to be well loved and better treated because of our Faith.

    Indeed, this attitude is all too common among Traditional Catholic men.  And, ironically, it generally causes a reaction among their wives and women in general TOWARDS feminist attitudes.  Conversely, the more respect and honor a husband shows to his wife, the more naturally inclined she is (if she's at all of good will) to be submissive.  And, yes, some of these types have attempted to edumacate me about the matter as well.  On the thread about wife-beating (aka "corporal punishment"), one of these guys called me a "pervert" (and a liberal, a fag, and various other assorted things) for holding that it's wrong for a husband to lay violent hands on his wife.
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