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Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: ggreg on September 07, 2013, 10:09:49 AM

Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: ggreg on September 07, 2013, 10:09:49 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23887807

Very interesting video article about how 20 somethings have never developed an ability to engage humans 1 on 1 because of the mobile phone, video games and not being allowed out to play in the street or the local park.

Want to be on six figures in the future?  Learn how to replace the generation of salespeople who are 20-30 years older than you.  Selling large business to business deals is, and always will be a personal thing built on meeting people and looking them in the eye.  Nobody in business spends over $100k without meeting a representative of the firm they are buying from and that rep nearly always gets a piece of the action.  No chinaman or computer can replace you in this role because people cannot chat with and form a close trusted relationship with an alien culture as easily as their own.  ( "How about those Mets?" Sounds very strange from a Chinaman or even a Mexican)

Salespeople retire early. The best ones can afford to and the worst ones get fired or leave because they cannot make sales.  That means corporations are ALWAYS looking for fresh talent to start.

It's a great job, if you can master it, because you often have you employer's balls in a bag.   If you are hitting targets and making them money you are one of the most important people in the company and VERY difficult to replace because of the combination of specific product knowledge and trusted relationships.  You can take days off, come in late leave early and there is nothing they can do about it.  Nor will they care if you make your numbers.

It is ideal for a Catholic Father because you make your bones in your 20s and in your 30s and 40s it gets easier and less time consuming right about the time you need more time off work for the family.

It is also the cornerstone of nearly all business.  Without sales no business can run.  With great sales you can run the rest of the business like an asshat and still make a profit.

Skills required?  You have to like people and like talking to them.  College degree totally unnecessary.  When it gets technical you just roll in some guy wearing a pocket protector.  You sell VALUE to the senior people who control the purse strings.  They don't care a hoot how their fine suit is made, just that it fits them.

So all you 20 somethings worrying about how 'the world has changed' and 'everything's a monopoly' and 'corporations only want cheap little chinamen doing everything', well HERE is an opportunity for you.  Something that in 2013 is a stronger opportunity for a young white native English speaker than in 1988 when I started out.  Especially one who is not wedded to his smartphone and Facebook account.
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: Elizabeth on September 07, 2013, 11:10:33 AM
I noticed this dynamic when I was struggling along in the art world.  The ones with the sales pitch-no matter how shallow and stupid--were selling their work.  That was the time of the Cy Twomblys and the crowd nihilists making big bucks.  They used basically what you describe.  There was one spectacular example, whose name I forget, whose motto was "Live and Earn".
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: s2srea on September 07, 2013, 11:18:12 AM
I work in sales, actually, and this is very true. I have no Bachelors degree, and someone in my office actually has no High School diploma. In our office, the lowest paid employee makes no less than 70k/ year. It is well known in my industry that the prospective buyer 'buys you, not the product.'
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: ggreg on September 07, 2013, 11:18:25 AM
Well Catholics are taught to love our enemies and be a beacon of light and engage with the world and evangelise, so it would appear to me that professional selling should be an appropriate career choice.
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: s2srea on September 07, 2013, 11:26:32 AM
Something to contend with, however, is that not all Catholics- especially Traditional ones, it seems- have the right temperament for sales. So we cannot, of course, view sales as the 'fix' to all of our problems. What do we do when we have a melancholic who has a great mental intellect, but may be introverted and quiet?
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: ggreg on September 07, 2013, 11:46:00 AM
Quote from: s2srea
Something to contend with, however, is that not all Catholics- especially Traditional ones, it seems- have the right temperament for sales. So we cannot, of course, view sales as the 'fix' to all of our problems. What do we do when we have a melancholic who has a great mental intellect, but may be introverted and quiet?


Internet blogger evangelist?  I hear they make reasonable money.  Just kidding.

Seriously however, I guess the answer is that the people with the right temperament get job in corporations, do well, gain influence and then hire their friends from mass.  Pure nepotism.  My brother is a Chief Technology Officer and rather melancholic tech type and he has hired at least 10 Trads and given them a career start in financial data.  The first now works in a hedge fund and does very well indeed.  The second was my brother in law who now works at a leading investment bank programming algo trading computers and makes mega bucks at 25.  He is forever jetting around between Hong Kong, South Africa, New York.  He is about as introverted and intellectual as you could ever find, but an amazingly clever genius as well.

Obviously, however, if those people come and work for an owner who is a Jew and in what is a very multiracial environment because they are translating and supporting financial data in different languages, then they have to learn to keep their opinions to themselves at work.  Not only does the big boss not appreciate paying someone who would like him in a gas oven, but my brother is likely going to be embarrassed by recommending them.  So the people with very strong views about the way they would like the world to be are sh!t out of luck I guess.

"Fredo, you're my older brother, and I love you, but don't ever side with anyone against the family again, ever."

I employ one Trad myself and three Ukrainian Orthodox and a Greek Orthodox here in San Francisco, who actually goes to the Russian Orthodox because the Greek church in America is too modernist for her.  My Trad is a chap who had health problems and could no longer do his manual job.  Now he sits at a computer and does detailed research for me, looking up people I need to contact and making little dossiers about them and their contact details, including their direct and mobile numbers, so I can use the dossier when I contact them and be very knowledgable about every aspect of their business.

It is my understanding that around these parts that is NOT a rare skill set.

Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: Matto on September 07, 2013, 01:43:59 PM
Quote from: ggreg
Not only does the big boss not appreciate paying someone who would like him in a gas oven

You are fucked up for saying this as if trads want to put Jews in gas ovens.
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: Frances on September 07, 2013, 01:53:59 PM
 :barf:
Sorry, Ggreg, but the last thing I want in my handbag is my employer's balls!  Do you consider sales such as you describe an appropriate job for single Traditional Catholic woman?  If not, what DO you suggest?  
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: Telesphorus on September 07, 2013, 01:57:18 PM
Quote from: Frances
:barf:
Sorry, Ggreg, but the last thing I want in my handbag is my employer's balls!  Do you consider sales such as you describe an appropriate job for single Traditional Catholic woman?  If not, what DO you suggest?  


don't feed the troll Frances.
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: Telesphorus on September 07, 2013, 02:00:33 PM
Quote from: Matto
Quote from: ggreg
Not only does the big boss not appreciate paying someone who would like him in a gas oven

You are #### up for saying this as if trads want to put Jews in gas ovens.


Good catch Matto.  It's very clear what his agenda is here.
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: Frances on September 07, 2013, 02:08:47 PM
 :ready-to-eat:Even trolls get hungry!  I'm waiting for his answer.
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: Tiffany on September 07, 2013, 04:32:22 PM
It's not just quiet or not having the ability to make small talk or connect. Not everyone is comfortable forcing people into a buying decision or even in sales where the customer is ready to buy to push them to buy a higher priced product. Most people have a natural sense of empathy where they will somewhat "side" with the customer, not with the company they work for, they don't want to push or use pressure.
If you really worked as a consultant Ggreg you would know there are different types of sales it's not just small talk. Someone who isn't real good at picking up on buying cues but great with product knowledge/features is more appropriate for some types of sales.
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: BTNYC on September 07, 2013, 05:36:35 PM
Quote from: ggreg


Want to be on six figures in the future?  


I see something of a recurring theme...
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: BTNYC on September 07, 2013, 05:43:49 PM
Quote from: Matto
Quote from: ggreg
Not only does the big boss not appreciate paying someone who would like him in a gas oven

You are #### up for saying this as if trads want to put Jews in gas ovens.


I didn't even stick around long enough to catch that.

The obsession with filthy lucre and then this asinine use of a classic Christkiller's strawman...

Thanks for outing yourself, Shylock.
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: Cuthbert on September 07, 2013, 10:07:55 PM
Leaving the context of the topic as originally presented, being a good salesman &c. to one side, & thinking about it more from the standpoint of examining into some of the causes of the astonishing societal decline that has occurred over the past sixty or seventy years one can't help but notice that the intelligence of the general public has suffered a catastrophic decline. Modern people are sinking ever lower, I'm afraid that if God permitted things to go on as they're going now for another 100 years, the greater part of mankind would be reduced mentally almost to the level of the very beasts, they would become creatures like the eloi depicted in H.G. Wells's The Time Machine. Books printed for the general public 150 or 100 years ago are often unintelligible for moderns. They were never taught basic things such as the meaning of common grammatical terms. An Englishman of say 1880, who wanted to learn German would get a German grammar & learn how to compose grammatically correct sentences by memorizing things such as that any noun following the preposition wegen, because of, on account of, must be in the genitive case, wegen des regens, on account of the rain &c. Most young people now would find such a book useless, case? genitive? preposition? what are those things? They weren't taught history, geography, foreign languages, mathematics & so on, they were taught what a great man the communist negro agitator King was & how they should be ashamed of their own culture & ancestors. For the most part their minds have been entirely enervated by the wonderfully successful state schools, which are set up for this purpose. If God does not intervene the situation is utterly hopeless.
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: Telesphorus on September 07, 2013, 10:11:03 PM
Quote from: BTNYC
Quote from: Matto
Quote from: ggreg
Not only does the big boss not appreciate paying someone who would like him in a gas oven

You are #### up for saying this as if trads want to put Jews in gas ovens.


I didn't even stick around long enough to catch that.

The obsession with filthy lucre and then this asinine use of a classic Christkiller's strawman...

Thanks for outing yourself, Shylock.


Yes, he's on the same level of the ADL, LICRA, and the SPLC.  

He said Nadir's comments about using solar power reminded him of "jihadists"

That is on the level of mental illness, which accounts for his preoccupation with posters on this board.

Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: ggreg on September 08, 2013, 03:14:43 AM
Quote from: Cuthbert
Leaving the context of the topic as originally presented, being a good salesman &c. to one side, & thinking about it more from the standpoint of examining into some of the causes of the astonishing societal decline that has occurred over the past sixty or seventy years one can't help but notice that the intelligence of the general public has suffered a catastrophic decline. Modern people are sinking ever lower, I'm afraid that if God permitted things to go on as they're going now for another 100 years, the greater part of mankind would be reduced mentally almost to the level of the very beasts, they would become creatures like the eloi depicted in H.G. Wells's The Time Machine. Books printed for the general public 150 or 100 years ago are often unintelligible for moderns. They were never taught basic things such as the meaning of common grammatical terms. An Englishman of say 1880, who wanted to learn German would get a German grammar & learn how to compose grammatically correct sentences by memorizing things such as that any noun following the preposition wegen, because of, on account of, must be in the genitive case, wegen des regens, on account of the rain &c. Most young people now would find such a book useless, case? genitive? preposition? what are those things? They weren't taught history, geography, foreign languages, mathematics & so on, they were taught what a great man the communist negro agitator King was & how they should be ashamed of their own culture & ancestors. For the most part their minds have been entirely enervated by the wonderfully successful state schools, which are set up for this purpose. If God does not intervene the situation is utterly hopeless.


If you are going to write a rant like that, at least put the commas in the correct place and use paragraphs or it makes you look like one of the lazy and ill-educated moderns you are complaining about.

(Sales 101, page 17)
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: ggreg on September 08, 2013, 03:33:42 AM
Quote from: Telesphorus


That is on the level of mental illness, which accounts for his preoccupation with posters on this board.



I did not spent all of Saturday 7th September on a 37 page rant about one poster.  It was a beautiful hot day here in Northern California and I drove to Muir Woods and then along the Shoreline and Panoramic Highways to MT Tamalpais State Park.

I did come across some nuts though.  A Mexican man was selling, cashews, pistachios and the very hard to find in my parts macadamia and I bought 42 bucks worth in total.
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: Cuthbert on September 08, 2013, 04:00:22 AM
Lo siento Greg, pero no tengo un gran saber de los ordenadores por lo tanto no puedo separar los parrafos como Vd. desea. Con referencia a las comas he aprendido todo de mis libros y trato de copiar todo lo que veo. En todo caso no tengo muchas preocupaciones, estoy un senor desocupado, no debo estar un vendedor. Sin embargo muchas gracias por su ayuda con respecto a las comas.
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: ggreg on September 08, 2013, 04:20:38 AM
So what is the situation in the Spanish speaking world?  Are young people there becoming virtual vegetables who have lost the art of real life conversation and have mutated thumbs from the texting they do?  From my travels the biggest problem with this seems to be in the Far East, then the English speaking world.

In Costa Rica, last February, I was chatting to people all the time, in English and broken Spanish.  They did not appear to be always on their phones.
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: Cuthbert on September 08, 2013, 06:48:57 AM
I'm a bit of a recluse & tend to stay in my house but my general observations would agree with yours, they are not as addicted to their phones & other electric devices with the exception of the younger & more well off, many of whom seek to follow the so-called "popular culture" in every way they can unfortunately.
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: wallflower on September 08, 2013, 08:29:24 AM
Yes I have noticed when we talk to older agents or brokers they use the term "belly to belly". They want to get to know you a bit, know that you are genuine and establish a relationship a little beyond just the sale. That's why everyone goes golfing!
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: ggreg on September 08, 2013, 08:47:33 AM
I have never been golfing.  Not for business anyway.  I can play, but my handicap must be about 20-25 so I am not good.

I took some clients up in a sea plane once over Sydney harbour then landed at Doyle's in Watson's Bay for fish and chips.  They were Yanks, so enjoyed that.
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: BTNYC on September 08, 2013, 11:31:35 AM
Quote from: ggreg



(Sales 101, page 17)


(http://chicagocollegelife.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/money-hungry2.jpg)
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: BTNYC on September 08, 2013, 11:38:17 AM
Quote from: ggreg
So what is the situation in the Spanish speaking world?  Are young people there becoming virtual vegetables who have lost the art of real life conversation and have mutated thumbs from the texting they do?  From my travels the biggest problem with this seems to be in the Far East, then the English speaking world.

In Costa Rica, last February, I was chatting to people all the time, in English and broken Spanish.  They did not appear to be always on their phones.


(http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/54512/54512,1178733200,1/stock-photo-busy-businessman-with-jacket-on-his-shoulder-looking-at-his-watch-on-the-airport-check-my-3263047.jpg)
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: BTNYC on September 08, 2013, 11:45:33 AM
Quote from: ggreg


I took some clients up in a sea plane once over Sydney harbour then landed at Doyle's in Watson's Bay for fish and chips.  They were Yanks, so enjoyed that.


(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mckytpXaAW1ryf42jo1_500.gif)
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: BTNYC on September 08, 2013, 12:11:11 PM
Quote from: ggreg


Obviously, however, if those people come and work for an owner who is a Jew and in what is a very multiracial environment because they are translating and supporting financial data in different languages, then they have to learn to keep their opinions to themselves at work.  Not only does the big boss not appreciate paying someone who would like him in a gas oven, but my brother is likely going to be embarrassed by recommending them.  So the people with very strong views about the way they would like the world to be are sh!t out of luck I guess.




(http://cdn1.tabletmag.com/wp-content/files_mf/1289587328foxman.big)
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: Iuvenalis on September 08, 2013, 12:32:01 PM
Quote from: s2srea
Something to contend with, however, is that not all Catholics- especially Traditional ones, it seems- have the right temperament for sales. So we cannot, of course, view sales as the 'fix' to all of our problems. What do we do when we have a melancholic who has a great mental intellect, but may be introverted and quiet?


It can be 'faked' or at least a more sanguine personality can be cultivated.

If one is motivated to support one's family.
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: Frances on September 08, 2013, 02:31:50 PM
Cultivated, maybe, but it will never be quite as good.  Fake it?  Most folks know a fake when they see one.  Besides, that would be dishonest.  
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: Iuvenalis on September 08, 2013, 03:16:08 PM
Quote from: Frances
Cultivated, maybe, but it will never be quite as good.  Fake it?  Most folks know a fake when they see one.  Besides, that would be dishonest.  


No, these are different things.

Faking sincerity or interest in another human being would be dishonest. Being extroverted or 'outgoing' when you're not, while 'faking it' is not *being* a fake, it is just exercising an emotional range youre less comfortable with.

My oldest daughter is really outgoing, and chats up other kids all the time and so, their parents feel we should converse, even though I usually don't want to talk to them (or anyone really). I dont want to be rude, so I have learned to be a little more sanguine and learn some small talk which I never really liked-- I have learned to 'fake it'.

I am not *being* fake by doing so because it is not as though I hate them but am pretending to like them, I would just prefer to be in my own thoughts and not talk, but am talking about weather and their little Suzy's ballet lessons. I don't resent their child's hobbies, I would just rather watch my kids play in peace or with an article in hand.
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: OHCA on September 08, 2013, 04:05:32 PM
BTNYC--couldn't you find any pics a little uglier and with less hair?  I suppose the jew was ugly enough--but still too much hair.  LoL
Title: Millennials have lost the art of conversation.
Post by: BTNYC on September 08, 2013, 10:53:06 PM
Quote from: OHCA
BTNYC--couldn't you find any pics a little uglier and with less hair?  I suppose the jew was ugly enough--but still too much hair.  LoL


Ha- No, those were meant to represent the delusional self-image of a megalomaniacal mammonite (and the Abe Foxman pic was to illustrate the crypto-Yehud wolf peeking out from the trad sheepskin).

Reality has very little bearing on anything that comes forth from his keyboard (though people like him would be the first to tell you that such finance-obsessed mundanity is what "real life" is all about. More's the pity.)