Author Topic: Michael Voris on ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity (Read 8016 times)

MaterDominici · « **on:** March 27, 2011, 11:18:17 PM »

Quote from: jllsjlls

Quote from: Raoul76
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P.S. I'm actually a Michael Voris fanboy.

You have the excuse of youth on your side, at least.

http://www.youtube.com/user/RealCatholicTV?feature=mhum#p/a/u/0/K0sILSapUUc

Here is a video wherein we learn, according to Voris, that ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs are "more intensely loved by God than most others" because of the "cross" of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, which "non-ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ persons" can't possibly understand.

Voris suggests that ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs are special in their ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, and that the suffering of unrequited ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ lust is part of the sanctification of their souls, thus taking away any incentive they might have to fight their wayward urges.

First, the suffering experienced in the FIGHT against lust is part of the sanctification of the soul of anyone who struggles with it. He did NOT say that they should indulge, but quite the contrary. Therefore I fail to see what is the problem here.

Second, in a certain sense God does love more the ones who struggle with sin more, because it was precisely because of THEM that Jesus decided to descend from Heaven and into the world; it was not for the righteous or the ones who were spiritually healthy, and this fact Jesus Himself stated very clearly through His own mouth.(Matthew 9:12-13).

Third, if someone has never struggled with cocaine or other powerful drugs, and has never personally experienced how powerfully and hopelessly these drugs enslave the one addicted to them, how can he claim to understand it? Do you understand the euphoria and pleasure that these drugs produce (at the beginning) in the one who takes them? Do you really understand it? Unless you have used them, you may know what you read here and there, but that does NOT mean that you understand it. It is like reading about Hell without actually having been in it. Do you really understand the sufferings of the damned? Therefore, unless you struggle with ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity and understand how ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity affects the psychology and emotions of a human being, please refrain from saying that you understand it (you don't), just as I refrain from saying that I understand drug users, although I do know what they do and know that it is quite wrong.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #1 on:** March 27, 2011, 11:21:46 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote from: jllsjlls
Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
Welcome, IrishUkrainian.

Voris' videos go back and forth alot. Sometimes he will speak out against something wrong, other times he will give something that is wrong an excuse. Just like he did with the gαys.

I watched "the gαys" video several times and I did not see/hear that he is excusing gαys in any way whatsoever.

It would seem that if he said that God especially loves ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs because of their affliction, that would contradict scripture:

24 Wherefore, God gave them up to the desires of their heart, unto uncleanness: to dishonour their own bodies among themselves. 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause, God delivered them up to shameful affections. For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature. God delivered them up... Not by being author of their sins, but by withdrawing his grace, and so permitting them, in punishment of their pride, to fall into those shameful sins. 27 And, in like manner, the men also, leaving the natural use of the women, have burned in their lusts, one towards another: men with men, working that which is filthy and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error. 28 And as they liked not to have God in their knowledge, God delivered them up to a reprobate sense, to do those things which are not convenient. 29 Being filled with all iniquity, malice, fornication, avarice, wickedness: full of envy, murder, contention, deceit, malignity: whisperers, 30 Detractors, hateful to God, contumelious, proud, haughty, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Foolish, dissolute: without affection, without fidelity, without mercy. 32 Who, having known the justice of God, did not understand that they who do such things, are worthy of death: and not only they that do them, but they also that consent to them that do them.

jllsjlls · « **Reply #2 on:** March 27, 2011, 11:37:12 PM »

And this doctrine of Jesus loving (in a certain sense) the greatest sinners more than the faithful has been confirmed by several saints. For example, Jesus told Saint Faustina:

“My Secretary, write that I am more generous towards sinners than toward the just. It was for their sake that I came down from heaven; it was for their sake that My blood was spilled. Let them not fear to approach Me; they are most in need of My mercy.”

More joy in heaven for a converted sinner than for 99 just, etc. etc. etc.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 28, 2011, 12:07:44 AM »

He's not talking about converted sinners. He's talking about those with wayward desires that they should do everything to obliterate from their hearts. Worse, he speaks as if having those desires and resisting them made them more saintly than other Catholics.

This is sentimental pro-ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ rhetoric, playing right into their egotistic fancies that they are a breed apart. If you have met ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, you will know how brittle their egos often are, and how they feel they are unique and wondrous, sensitive beings. It is also irresponsible because instead of telling them to uproot these depraved desires from their hearts outright, he tells them that these same desires are a special cross. The result is that they are less likely to challenge them or fight them, which increases the likelihood that they will act on them.

This is terrible advice that Voris gives, it's like flattery. It doesn't serve those with ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ desires or anyone else.

Something else that is offensive is that he says people with these desires are CLOSER to God than heterosɛҳuąƖs, just on that basis alone. Think about this for a second. A ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ who resists their desires, and a heterosɛҳuąƖ who resists their desires, both resist strong sɛҳuąƖ temptation. Why is it more meritorious for a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ to resist what is unnatural, than it is for a heterosɛҳuąƖ to resist what is perfectly natural and ordained by God for the procreation of children? Even heterosɛҳuąƖ sex outside marriage, though a sin against God's order, is totally natural if it's done the usual way. It is understandable, if regrettable, if anyone falls into mortal sin that way, due to the allurements of the flesh that were intended to be made use of in marriage.

This shows the real political correctness of what Voris said. HeterosɛҳuąƖs must resist a good that is created by God, and thus much more tempting; ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs only have to resist a disordered impulse implanted in their brains by the fallen angels, and even the slightest thought of how completely disgusting this act is should make it easy to resist that temptation. I think it was Jesus who said to St. Catherine of Siena that it is the fallen angels who tempt men to ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ acts, but that even they are revolted when men actually do it. How could anyone who has even the slightest indication of just how foul such an act is even contemplate it for a second? It is on the order of bestiality or child molestation or incest. Actually, in terms of moral theology, I'm pretty sure it's worse than incest or child molestation if said sins are male-female, as harsh as that sounds.

I can't think of many saints who fought ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ desires, but maybe Michael Voris knows something that I don't.

Jehanne · « **Reply #4 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:31:49 AM »

It also ignores the scientific data -- ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs are promiscuous, which is why AIDS impacted them so hard. One time, at a party, I had a "gαy guy" hit on me; he was quite blunt about it.

Jehanne · « **Reply #5 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:39:05 AM »

Quote from: Raoul76

HeterosɛҳuąƖs must resist a good that is created by God, and thus much more tempting; ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs only have to resist a disordered impulse implanted in their brains by the fallen angels, and even the slightest thought of how completely disgusting this act is should make it easy to resist that temptation. I think it was Jesus who said to St. Catherine of Siena that it is the fallen angels who tempt men to ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ acts, but that even they are revolted when men actually do it.

Not only is the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ act a mortal sin, it is, unlike fornication (or even adultery), an abomination, which is why, during the Middle Ages, the sin and crime of sodomy was often punished by immolation.

Jitpring · « **Reply #6 on:** March 28, 2011, 01:27:30 PM »

Quote from: Jehanne

It also ignores the scientific data -- ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs are promiscuous, which is why AIDS impacted them so hard. One time, at a party, I had a "gαy guy" hit on me; he was quite blunt about it.

Years ago I worked for a while in West Hollywood - one of the sodomite capitals of the world. Sodomites hit on me all the time without shame. Nauseating.

O age, thou art shamed.*
O shame, where is thy blush?**

-Shakespeare, Julius Caesar,* Hamlet**

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #7 on:** March 28, 2011, 02:23:46 PM »

Quote from: jllsjlls

And this doctrine of Jesus loving (in a certain sense) the greatest sinners more than the faithful has been confirmed by several saints. For example, Jesus told Saint Faustina:

“My Secretary, write that I am more generous towards sinners than toward the just. It was for their sake that I came down from heaven; it was for their sake that My blood was spilled. Let them not fear to approach Me; they are most in need of My mercy.”

More joy in heaven for a converted sinner than for 99 just, etc. etc. etc.

This makes no sense. First of all, Jesus said NOWHERE in that quote you posted that He actually loves sinners more. God doesn't love sinners more than faithful, He doesn't pick and choose who He loves and who He only likes.

Jitpring · « **Reply #8 on:** March 28, 2011, 02:30:14 PM »

Somehow we don't see this quoted very often:

"Neither shall the wicked dwell near thee: nor shall the unjust abide before thy eyes. Thou hatest all the workers of iniquity...."

-Psalm 5:6-7

This is hatred of the sin and the sinner.

More:

"[H]ave no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For the things that are done by them in secret, it is a shame even to speak of" (Eph. 5:11-12). "Do not be mismated with unbelievers. For what partnership have righteousness and iniquity? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?" (2 Cor. 6:14-15). "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercy of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing unto God, your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world; but be reformed in the newness of your mind, that you may prove what is the good, and the acceptable, and the perfect will of God" (Rom. 12:1-2). "Do not love the world or the things in the world. If any one loves the world, love for the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life, is not of the Father but is of the world" (1 Jn. 2:15-16). "Adulterers, know you not that the friendship of this world is the enemy of God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of this world, becometh an enemy of God" (Jam. 4:4). "And all that will live godly in Christ Jesus, shall suffer persecution" (2 Tim. 3:12).

"'If we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him' (Rom. 6:8). To be dead with Christ, is to hate and turn from sin; and to live with Him, is to have our hearts and minds turned towards God and Heaven. To be dead to sin, is to feel a disgust at it. We know what is meant by disgust...."

-John Henry Newman, http://www.newmanreader.org/works/parochial/volume7/sermon13.html

"A man says to himself, 'How am I to know I am in earnest?' I would suggest to him, Make some sacrifice, do some distasteful thing, which you are not actually obliged to do, (so that it be lawful,) to bring home to your mind that in fact you do love your Saviour, that you do hate sin, that you do hate your sinful nature, that you have put aside the present world."

-John Henry Newman, http://www.newmanreader.org/works/parochial/volume1/sermon5.html

"To be holy is, in our Church's words, to have 'the true circuмcision of the Spirit;' that is, to be separate from sin, to hate the works of the world, the flesh, and the devil; to take pleasure in keeping God's commandments; to do things as He would have us do them; to live habitually as in the sight of the world to come, as if we had broken the ties of this life, and were dead already. Why cannot we be saved without possessing such a frame and temper of mind?...."

-John Henry Newman, http://www.newmanreader.org/works/parochial/volume1/sermon1.html

Christian, would'st thou learn to love?
First learn thee how to hate.
Hatred of sin and zeal and fear
Lead up the Holy Hill;
Track them, till charity appear
A self-denial still.

-John Henry Newman, http://www.newmanreader.org/biography/jafroude.html

Do I not hate them that hate thee, O Lord?
And do I not loathe them that rise up against thee?
I hate them with perfect hatred;*
I count them my enemies.

-Psalm 139 (RSV) (138, Douay-Rheims) : 21-22

*Note, Douay-Rheims, Challoner: "Not with an hatred of malice, but a zeal for the observance of God's commandments; which he saw were despised by the wicked, who are to be considered enemies to God."

"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."

-God, Mt. 12:30

jllsjlls · « **Reply #9 on:** March 28, 2011, 06:40:51 PM »

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Worse, he speaks as if having those desires and resisting them made them more saintly than other Catholics.

He didn't say that. I'm sure that Michael Voris knows full well that that is not the case. You interpreted that yourself because he did not say that.

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Something else that is offensive is that he says people with these desires are CLOSER to God than heterosɛҳuąƖs, just on that basis alone.

Again, did he really say that ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs are CLOSER to God? Really? Did he really? I don't think so.

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Why is it more meritorious for a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ to resist what is unnatural, than it is for a heterosɛҳuąƖ to resist what is perfectly natural and ordained by God for the procreation of children?

It is not more meritorious and he did not say that either. You are reading WAY too much into this and arriving at SO MANY different conclusions of things that he did NOT say.

jllsjlls · « **Reply #10 on:** March 28, 2011, 08:29:13 PM »

Quote from: Raoul76

I can't think of many saints who fought ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ desires, but maybe Michael Voris knows something that I don't.

Not many, because to begin with, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity is not common and there is only a small percentage of people who are ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs. So why in the world would you expect to be able to think of "many saints" who fought ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ desires??

But THERE ARE people who are SAINTS in the eyes of God who struggled with ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ desires, and the testimony of Sacred Scripture is ENOUGH. (1 Corinthians 6:11)

Jitpring · « **Reply #11 on:** March 29, 2011, 09:34:47 AM »

Quote from: jllsjlls

But THERE ARE people who are SAINTS in the eyes of God who struggled with ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ desires, and the testimony of Sacred Scripture is ENOUGH. (1 Corinthians 6:11)

You speak with such certainty. Yet see the two verses before it. None of the washed mentioned in verse 11 were necessarily fαɢs.

Jehanne · « **Reply #12 on:** March 29, 2011, 11:14:09 AM »

Quote from: jllsjlls

Quote from: Raoul76

I can't think of many saints who fought ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ desires, but maybe Michael Voris knows something that I don't.

Not many, because to begin with, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity is not common and there is only a small percentage of people who are ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs. So why in the world would you expect to be able to think of "many saints" who fought ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ desires??

But THERE ARE people who are SAINTS in the eyes of God who struggled with ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ desires, and the testimony of Sacred Scripture is ENOUGH. (1 Corinthians 6:11)

People struggle with all sorts of evil desires all the time. Let's say that I am a pedophilia psychopath who struggles with raping, killing, and then dismembering little children, both boys and girls? Is Michael Voris going to write an article praising me for overcoming (so far, ha, ha) my psychopathic desires??

Or, is he going to say that I am a nut who deserves to be locked-up not only for my own protection but, especially, for the protection of any potential victims?

jllsjlls · « **Reply #13 on:** March 29, 2011, 03:57:50 PM »

Quote from: Jehanne

Is Michael Voris going to write an article praising me for overcoming (so far, ha, ha) my psychopathic desires??

So are you saying that overcoming sinful desires is not something to be praised?

As far as I am concerned, overcoming and resisting sinful desires is something very good and worthy of praise. Well, apparently not for you.

So Michael Voris would do well to praise your sustained efforts and to encourage you to do even better still (which he did).

For the record, the Catholic Church does NOT teach that ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs need to become heterosɛҳuąƖs. If that is what you believe, then that is YOUR OWN TEACHING. The Cathechism of the Catholic Church says:

"ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection."

It does NOT say that they need to become heterosɛҳuąƖs; that would be YOUR OWN TEACHING.

In fact, heterosɛҳuąƖity has only a TEMPORAL purpose. It is of ABSOLUTELY NO USE in Heaven. HeterosɛҳuąƖity is, by definition, a sɛҳuąƖ ATTRACTION towards the opposite sex. In Heaven there is NO such thing. Let me repeat that: In Heaven there is NO such thing as a sɛҳuąƖ attraction towards the opposite sex.. In Heaven it is the law of the Spirit that rules, and we all be like angels, as Jesus said when talking about marriage in the after life.

Therefore, a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ is NOT to focus his energies on trying to become a heterosɛҳuąƖ (that is your own teaching), He would be wasting his precious time in trying to obtain something that is of ZERO value in Heaven, and will not even exist there. All he should do is to strive for chastity (as the Catholic Church teaches) and to cultivate all the heavenly virtues, as any other celibate heterosɛҳuąƖ. Reality check: heterosɛҳuąƖity is not a virtue and neither will it exist in Heaven.

Caraffa · « **Reply #14 on:** March 29, 2011, 04:13:56 PM »

Quote from: jllsjlls

Quote from: Raoul76

I can't think of many saints who fought ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ desires, but maybe Michael Voris knows something that I don't.

Not many, because to begin with, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity is not common and there is only a small percentage of people who are ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs. So why in the world would you expect to be able to think of "many saints" who fought ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ desires??

But THERE ARE people who are SAINTS in the eyes of God who struggled with ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ desires, and the testimony of Sacred Scripture is ENOUGH. (1 Corinthians 6:11)

Look at the first few words, "such some of you were," past tense.