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Author Topic: meatless Fridays & other people  (Read 1961 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: meatless Fridays & other people
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2024, 03:00:19 PM »
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  • Inviting a friend to a restaurant, on a friday, is not enabling.  Or condoning.  Or sinning in any way.  The person who was invited has free will and will eat what they want, and neither you nor even God will interfere in their decision.  Sure, you could stop going to lunch on fridays, if the activity is habitual.  But 99% of the population does not avoid meat on fridays, so how is this activity even surprising?


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: meatless Fridays & other people
    « Reply #16 on: May 22, 2024, 03:00:23 PM »
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  • There are objective rules for Fraternal Correction. I might have them saved off now (Sean Johnson originally provided a great graphic on this topic)
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    Online Miseremini

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    Re: meatless Fridays & other people
    « Reply #17 on: May 22, 2024, 03:27:05 PM »
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  • To whoever reported a post in this thread: I see no problem with it. I merely see an argument. Carry on.
    Sorry that was me.  I was merely trying to report a technical problem with my reply #11.
    When I typed the reply it was as I intended but when I posted it my responses in the top half did not come in colour.  I tried to modify but that didn't work either.

    Again, sorry, I used the wrong method of communication.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Online SimpleMan

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    Re: meatless Fridays & other people
    « Reply #18 on: May 22, 2024, 04:32:56 PM »
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  • That’s ridiculous. I haven’t had a problem getting a meatless option at a restaurant, there are vegetable soups, salads, probably fish/lentil/bean. The person is not a child.

    Come down South sometime.  The people here have no clue.  As a practical matter, I prepare my own food on Fridays and eat at home.  (Though I had to go to a city about an hour away a few Fridays back, and got the $4.99 lunch special at Captain D's, best fried fish you will ever eat.  Captain D's isn't usually that good.)

    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: meatless Fridays & other people
    « Reply #19 on: May 23, 2024, 05:52:38 PM »
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  • Thanks for all the feedback.

    a) Standard suburban place, big menu with lots of non-meat options. Time (Friday or not) and place (diner or fish shack or steakhouse) is pretty much out of my control with this particular person. I offer to pay every nth time or so since I'm usually the one dining for free.

    Sometimes cajoling or distraction works, sometimes not. When it doesn't, given the mix of temperaments and history involved, my options are either let it slide or get up and leave. The latter won't fix it since I'm hoping and praying this person returns to the Faith before it's too late.:pray: 
    Whereas staying silent might be the lesser evil double effect strategy (nod to Ladislaus).... or not either, since the sin committed is certain and immediate, while the reversion is uncertain and far off. (We need a sigh emoji.)

    b) Change of plans, bbq is getting dropped off on Saturday, albeit an Ember Day this week. I had thought that Trinitarian Baptism binds any Christian after the age of reason, my error. But that's a whole other kettle of fish. :laugh1:
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus


    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: meatless Fridays & other people
    « Reply #20 on: May 23, 2024, 06:11:51 PM »
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  • While not entirely on point with the O.P., when it comes to Fridays and someone asks us over to eat for dinner, I follow the advice of St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 10:27: "If any of them that believe not, invite you, and you will be willing to go; eat of any thing that is set before you, asking no question for conscience' sake."

    Granted, I know full well that my truly Catholic friends will be serving us a meatless meal.

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    • γνῶθι σεαυτόν - temet nosce
    Re: meatless Fridays & other people
    « Reply #21 on: May 23, 2024, 09:51:55 PM »
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  • It is possible -- although improbable -- that a person has been canonically exempted from Friday penance, e.g., an episcopal exemption (temporary or perpetual) or one may have paid the annual La Cruzada fee in Spain.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: meatless Fridays & other people
    « Reply #22 on: May 23, 2024, 10:48:31 PM »
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  • Quote
    my options are either let it slide or get up and leave.
    You can’t control this person.  It’s their decision.  


    Offline Emilio

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    Re: meatless Fridays & other people
    « Reply #23 on: May 24, 2024, 06:04:53 AM »
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  • or one may have paid the annual La Cruzada fee in Spain.
    No, since the times of Pius XI (i think, at least it was the case under Pius XII) the bull was made to be valid for only one year, and it was renovated every year. Montini never renovated it, so... no one can claim to use it.
    Also, that benefit of the bull was free for poor people, poor meaning that they need to work to sustain themselves.

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    • γνῶθι σεαυτόν - temet nosce
    Re: meatless Fridays & other people
    « Reply #24 on: May 24, 2024, 06:50:22 AM »
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  • No, since the times of Pius XI (i think, at least it was the case under Pius XII) the bull was made to be valid for only one year, and it was renovated every year. Montini never renovated it, so... no one can claim to use it.
    Also, that benefit of the bull was free for poor people, poor meaning that they need to work to sustain themselves.
    Thank you for that information.

    I had a professor in grad school -- a monsignor -- who paid the fee during a trip to Spain while he was a seminarianin Rome during the 1950s. He told us grad students how he and another would eat meat in cassock in Rome on Fridays at trattoria frequented by clergy from the Roman Curia with their exemption docuмents displayed on the table.

    It is too bad that one can longer receive that exemption if only to celebrate the expulsion of the Moors (and small hats) from Iberia.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: meatless Fridays & other people
    « Reply #25 on: May 24, 2024, 08:51:06 AM »
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  • Quote
    While not entirely on point with the O.P., when it comes to Fridays and someone asks us over to eat for dinner, I follow the advice of St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 10:27: "If any of them that believe not, invite you, and you will be willing to go; eat of any thing that is set before you, asking no question for conscience' sake."

    Granted, I know full well that my truly Catholic friends will be serving us a meatless meal.
    This is not a proper application of St Paul's advice, who was speaking of the situation of eating foods sacrificed to pagan idols.  The council of Jerusalem forbid Christians from eating such foods (which is obvious) but this command was not absolute; there were exceptions.  Such as, the avoidance of such foods were to avoid scandal to the newly converted, who may be confused between Catholic rules and their former life.  Also, this rule was only for Jerusalem and surrounding areas, which is where the main scandal was probable.

    There are also exceptions for the Church's law forbidding the eating of meat on fridays, but typically such exceptions relate to sickness or health of the individual.  Scandal has never been an exception, and the rule of law is not a local one, but applies to the entire Church, as many saints say this law is of Apostolic origin, and thus part of Tradition (which cannot be changed).

    So, I think your thought-process on this matter is slightly flawed.  If one were invited to a meal by an unbeliever, who served meat, I'm not sure if one could partake (assuming pre-V2 rules), for charity's sake.  I'm sure there are situations were it would be allowed, but the point being that the "Friday Fast" is more strict of a law than the "Avoid Pagan foods" law which St Paul refers to above.


    Online Seraphina

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    Re: meatless Fridays & other people
    « Reply #26 on: May 24, 2024, 11:17:45 AM »
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  • In both situations, mind your own business.  Friday meat fast is NOT a moral precept.  It’s ecclesiastical law, but does not apply universally, never did.  Technically speaking, Catholics do not absolutely need to abstain on Friday if they perform some other penance in its place.  The non-practicing relative won’t perform any penance, regardless.  The most you could choose to do is to mention that you follow the traditional Catholic custom of fasting from meat on Friday.  You are in no way responsible for your adult relative’s choice.  Again, this is NOT a moral matter.  

    As for the Protestant, he’s in no way obliged to observe a Catholic law.  Again, it’s not a moral issue.  

    Online SimpleMan

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    Re: meatless Fridays & other people
    « Reply #27 on: May 24, 2024, 11:26:41 AM »
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  • Technically speaking, Catholics do not absolutely need to abstain on Friday if they perform some other penance in its place.  

    Are you sure about that?  Traditionally, the Friday abstinence was mandatory (making allowance for exceptions such as Jone describes in his moral theology text), and substituting another penance wasn't an option.  

    Here are the exceptions that Jone cites:



    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: meatless Fridays & other people
    « Reply #28 on: May 24, 2024, 11:39:43 AM »
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  • Quote
    Friday meat fast is NOT a moral precept.
    Ok, but one can still be damned for not obeying church law.  So your distinction is dangerous, in implying that Church Law has no bearing on salvation.

    Quote
    It’s ecclesiastical law, but does not apply universally, never did.
    It is Church law but it's Apostolic too.  You'd have to prove that it's not universal.  Most sources I've read say that this law is of Apostolic origin and thus, it's part of Tradition (i.e. universal).  I'm pretty sure even the Orthodox have the Friday fast. 

    Quote
    Technically speaking, Catholics do not absolutely need to abstain on Friday if they perform some other penance in its place.
    This has only been the rule since V2.  Prior to V2, the option to "do another penance" was only for rare exceptions, when allowed by a priest.

    Online Seraphina

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    Re: meatless Fridays & other people
    « Reply #29 on: May 24, 2024, 01:46:01 PM »
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  • Are you sure about that?  Traditionally, the Friday abstinence was mandatory (making allowance for exceptions such as Jone describes in his moral theology text), and substituting another penance wasn't an option. 

    Here are the exceptions that Jone cites:



    True, I’m going by the novus ordo.  Is it valid?   I’m not the Pope.  (and doubt the current occupant is, either!)  In some situation under pre-V2 and even pre-1955, a person could get a dispensation that could even his entire household.  
    I’ll leave the research to you, but I’m very confident of this.  
    Pardon the indelicacy, but our entire family got a dispensation from an SSPX priest. Our Dad, head of the household, had to do the preparation for a medical procedure on a Friday.  It involved the drinking of large quantities of gelatin based liquid!  (For those who don’t know, gelatin is derived from bone marrow. You can buy vegetable based gelatin in the supermarket, but the medical product offered no choice other than lemon-lime or orange flavor!)  
    Of course, there was no need for anyone else to use the dispensation.  Poor Dad was limited to his choice of jello or clear broth.