Author Topic: Matrimony  (Read 2185 times)

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Offline Kephapaulos

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Matrimony
« on: January 22, 2007, 10:36:37 PM »
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  • I also decided to start a thread on matrimony since it is a very big issue as well.   :wink: I have heard about people getting divorced and it saddens me a lot and I ask probably like many others why did they get married in the first place. I think now though that perhaps many should not get married. We have more selfish temptations around us now, not to mention the addition of family dysfunctions as it is already. I figured out two things that one should keep in mind though in choosing a spouse: 1) Will this person help me get to heaven? (the spiritual) 2) Are we or can we be best friends? (the temporal).

    What do you think?
    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)

    Offline Matthew

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    Matrimony
    « Reply #1 on: January 22, 2007, 11:26:48 PM »
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  • Fr. Timothy Pfeiffer gave a great explanation of this.

    He said that, without grace, all you have is the passions.

    Indeed, the passion of love is very capable of bringing two people together, and can make them do great things. But the problem is, it's a crap shoot. You never know what kind of luck you're going to have.

    The flipside, explains Fr. Pfeiffer, is that the same lower nature that brought the couple together in the beginning, can rip them apart later. The problem is, neither husband nor wife ever conquered themselves, subjecting the lower nature (passions) to the higher nature (intellect/reason).

    We all must conquer our passions, and subdue or at least control them. That can take a lifetime.

    So among the non-Catholics, or those without religion, you CAN have a couple (more or less) happily married for 50 years. But for every one of those, you have 30 divorced couples  :shocked:

    Most people are not insanely lucky.

    When you enter into Sacramental marriage (Matrimony), you have God's grace helping you. Also, both husband and wife understand that their soul is at stake in the marriage. They MUST "make a go of it" and get along with each other, and raise their kids Catholic, or they will have a difficult salvation, if any.
    They know they only get one shot at marriage, unless their partner dies. That helps to keep both couples "trying hard" as it were.

    Matthew
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    Offline miserere

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    Matrimony
    « Reply #2 on: January 23, 2007, 07:56:28 AM »
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  • Greetings in Christ,

    I highly recommend the following little book containing the writings of St. John Chrysostom on Marriage and Family Life...

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0913836869/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0913836869&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20

    It is a collection of his writings and homilies on marriage.  If Catholic couples would accept and practice his sage advice, the divorce rate would be ZERO.  

    The only word of warning about the book would be to ignore  portions of the introduction, written by an Eastern Orthodox Bishop, unless you want a somewhat historical analysis of the differences between marriage in the Western and Eastern Churches.

    Peace be with you.

    Christopher

    Offline Carolus Magnus

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    Matrimony
    « Reply #3 on: January 23, 2007, 03:11:55 PM »
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  • Here's something I learned from Aristotle concerning marriage.  In his opinion a man should marry at age 37 and a woman at age 18.  
    This is worth thinking about just because it goes agaisnt general opinions in the west that men and women should be roughly the same age if they marry.  Aristotle gives, as with most things he says very logical reasons, its quite long though so I won't type it out unless this idea interests you.

    If you look at history and also many other cultures today you will see that this idea isn't as taboo as it is made out to be in the West and the idea of say two 18 year olds marrying is in fact a very recent idea as far as I can tell.

    I'm tired tonight so I hope the above makes sense :sleep:
    adstiterunt reges terrae et principes convenerunt in unum adversus Dominum et adversus Christum eius diapsalma disrumpamus vincula eorum et proiciamus a nobis iugum ipsorum

    Offline John Steven

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    Matrimony
    « Reply #4 on: January 23, 2007, 05:52:39 PM »
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  • Quote from: Carolus Magnus
    Here's something I learned from Aristotle concerning marriage.  In his opinion a man should marry at age 37 and a woman at age 18.  
    This is worth thinking about just because it goes agaisnt general opinions in the west that men and women should be roughly the same age if they marry.  Aristotle gives, as with most things he says very logical reasons, its quite long though so I won't type it out unless this idea interests you.

    If you look at history and also many other cultures today you will see that this idea isn't as taboo as it is made out to be in the West and the idea of say two 18 year olds marrying is in fact a very recent idea as far as I can tell.

    I'm tired tonight so I hope the above makes sense :sleep:


    Well, find an 18 y.o. woman these days that would even be open to the idea of marrying someone more than twice her age. I'm afraid that is not going to happen any time soon. I'm seven years short of 37, and 18 would be too young even for me.


    Offline miserere

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    Matrimony
    « Reply #5 on: January 23, 2007, 08:22:28 PM »
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  • Greetings,

    It was my understanding that the Fathers recommended marriage take place between 15 and 17 years of age.  One would guess that maturity was higher back then, and life expectancy perhaps lower.  I tried to find some references to the Fathers about this, but came up emptyhanded earlier today.  

    For what its worth, I'm with John Stephen.  I'm 31 years old, plus I have two children due to abandonment by their mother, which creates its own set of issues in the traditional community.  I don't blame people for feeling that way.  Personally, I wouldn't want my children getting involved with a man who has children from a previous relationship either.  Its a unique situation.  Its going to take a unique young lady.  

    Of course, this is the wonderful thing about courtship, because traditionally, her parents get to know you as well.  Still, I don't know how comfortable I would feel with someone who is less than 21 given what passes for maturity these days, even among traditional Catholics.

    Peace be with you.

    Christopher

    Offline Kephapaulos

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    Matrimony
    « Reply #6 on: January 23, 2007, 08:34:19 PM »
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  • I am interested to know Aristotle's logical reasoning, Carolus. :)
    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)

    Offline gilbertgea

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    Matrimony
    « Reply #7 on: January 24, 2007, 07:00:53 AM »
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  • 'Here's something I learned from Aristotle concerning marriage. In his opinion a man should marry at age 37 and a woman at age 18.'

    'This is worth thinking about just because it goes agaisnt general opinions in the west that men and women should be roughly the same age if they marry. Aristotle gives, as with most things he says very logical reasons, its quite long though so I won't type it out unless this idea interests you.'

    'I am interested to know Aristotle's logical reasoning, Carolus.'


    I think the logic is obvious.  Marriage is about children.

    As a man ages, his raw, physical value increases because he has has matured mentally and has accumulated more wealth, so he will be able to care for a family and have the mental disposition to do so.  It takes a long time (especially these days) to properly afford a big, Catholic family.

    As a woman ages, her raw, physical value decreases because she becomes less capable of bearing children and less physically attractive.  Therefore, in order to capitalise on her 'prime', she should marry young.

    Men and women, generally speaking, look at each other differently.  Men generally go for looks, first, then character.  Women generally are the other way around.  Maybe there is some logic to that?

    I dont know if I would go so far as to say 37/18...  I'd probably recommend no greater difference than, say, 30/20.


    Offline Carolus Magnus

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    Matrimony
    « Reply #8 on: January 24, 2007, 07:32:50 AM »
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  • In making regulations about this partnership he should have regard both to the spouses themselves and to their length of life, in order that they may arrive at the right ages together at the same time, and so that the period of the father's ability to beget and that of the mother's to bear children may coincide.  A period when one of the two is capable and the other not leads to mutual strife and quarrels.  Next as regards the timin g of the children's successsion, there should not be too great a gap in age between fahter and children; for when then there is no good that the young can do by showing gratitude to elderly parents, and their fathers are no help to them.  Nor should they be too close in age, for this causes the relationship to be strained: like contempories, people in such a position feel less respect, and the nearness in age leads to bickering in household affairs.  

    All these purposes can be fulfilled, or nearly so, if we pay sufficent attention to one thing.  Since, generally speaking, the upper age limit for the begetting of children is for men seventy years and for women fifty, the beginning oftheir union should be at ages such that they will arrive at this stage of life simultaneosly.  But the intercourse of a very young couple is not  good for child-bearing.  In all animals the ofspring of early unions are defective, inclined to produce females and diminuitive; so the same kind of results are bound to follow in human beings too.  
    Also young women have greater difficulty in giving birth and more of them die.  It is also more conducive to restraint that daughters should be no longer young when their fathers bestow them in marriage, bacause it seems that women who have sɛҳuąƖ intercourse at an early age are more likely to be dissolute.  

    Accordingly we conclude that the appropriate age for the union is about the eighteenth year for girls and for men thethirty-seventh, with such timing, their union will take place when they are physically in their prime, and it will bring them down together at the end of procreation at exactly the right moment for both.  And the childrens succesion, if births take place promptly at the expected time, will occur when they are at the beginning of their prime and their parents past their peak, the Father now approaching his seventieth year.  
    adstiterunt reges terrae et principes convenerunt in unum adversus Dominum et adversus Christum eius diapsalma disrumpamus vincula eorum et proiciamus a nobis iugum ipsorum

    Offline Carolus Magnus

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    Matrimony
    « Reply #9 on: January 24, 2007, 07:38:22 AM »
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  • This idea of Aristotles makes sense to me, I can't think of any negatives though I can think of other benefits on top of what Aristotle mentioned.  

    The only problem may be that our young women in our culture simply aren't suitable to marry at 18 but that is more a failing of our society than a failing of Aristotle in my opinion, and those who are unsuitable at 18 often stay unsuitable for the rest of their lifes.
    adstiterunt reges terrae et principes convenerunt in unum adversus Dominum et adversus Christum eius diapsalma disrumpamus vincula eorum et proiciamus a nobis iugum ipsorum


     

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