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Ms. Margot is off her rocker:

http://msn.match.com/msn/article.aspx?articleid=8984&TrackingID=516311&BannerID=544657&menuid=8&GT1=10678

Isn't "Match.com" affiliated with "Catholic Match"?   In other words, they are supported by heretics.

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And that is having a wonderful, peaceful, cooperative relationship with my partner,

Well, it really wouldn’t happen if the couple has different religion. Does anyone know of any success stories concerning mixed marriages? Frankly, I haven’t heard one. All I know was the constant head banging of such couples.

Speaking of CM, is there any traditional Catholic dating forum already? Most people there are from EWTN/FSSP/Opus Dei. And members there are getting immoral as well. In my 1 year of stay there, I’ve encountered only 1 guy who’s traditionalist (SSPX adherent).  Quite unusual…

Wow.  OK.  I was only wondering if they were linked (the two sights).    I was on there a long while back, and I learned that you weren't allowed to say that priests who teach that you can be saved through other churches were wrong was uncharitable and a bunch of othe things (this was told to me by employees of CatholicMatch --- in writing).   They were totally peeved when I said that Scott Hahn was wrong about our understanding of Dogma can evolve.  They even believe that Dogma can evolve.  Yeah, I'd say at least a few of their employees are heretics, even if only materially.  

And, Joan, I belong to and FSSP community.  The last I heard was that the SSPX did not have the corner on the true Church.

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I was making reference to the administration of the site.  But since you've offered your advice on discerning a potential partner for marriage ---

I have found that holiness has more to do with a prayer life than most people care to admit.  However, what I found was that most Catholics are not much different than most non-Catholics in the sense that they do not pursue an authentic relationship with Christ in which development in the prayer life is required.  Most people, even with pious intentions, skimp on this, and make excuses, and some even have a disdain for the idea of this being a requirement.  When I was on there I made a few friends that I still keep in touch with regularly.  No one, however I met from there takes prayer as seriously as they should even according to their state in life.  People seem to rather spend more time learning things by natural means, and minding their temporal needs than their spiritual.  

I've heard the phrase used to describe people who have a thirst for knowing God by spending time with him (in the Blessed Sacrament) as having "a contemplative spirit."  One well-respected theologian even said that a person can have a contemplative spirit and still be called to marriage.   That phrase, however, never sat well with me.  I merely accepted it because I had to believe, "Who am I to even begin to question this?"  

But I will say publicly now what I really believe:  
We ALL are called to contemplative prayer.  I don't care at all for the phrase "contemplative spirit".   People can bounce around some of the prayer stages even after having regularly experience contemplative prayer -- and this is more true about the few lay people who reach this than the religious who are, let's face it, protected when they are enclosed, or at least, somewhat enclosed.  

Here's my point:  There are a few "holy" people on many of the highly popular Catholic sites, but they are always a minority.  And by "holy" in this sense, I only mean that they have a sincere desire to pursue Christ in the Sacraments.  However, of these there are even fewer that choose to do so on God's terms, rather than their own.   And I'm not talking about mortal sin --- we're talking about people who are NOT in habitual mortal sin, but are working on their faults, yet OFTEN not putting in the time for deepening their prayer.

For someone who recognizes this, and is pursuing these stages in contemplative prayer, there are many crossroads that force the individual into giving up more attachments to the world.  (Re.: the last stage of purgation in the transition period to illuminative).  God must have known that few people would travel this far, because once a person enters or has been hangin' around this transition for a while (like hitting a brick wall), the Lord reminds them that their walk is for HIM ALONE.  In other words, how I mean to apply this to this conversation is that in the human modality, God reveals to us the fact that there are few who cross this particular way, and those that do will find themselves particularly isolated from social support.  I mean, it makes sense that God would do this, but at the same time, we're not saints, we have our faults.  In this particular crossroad we have to choose (as before), "God or man?"  Now, I know there are some who are apt to read this and say, "Well, that's the sign of a 'vocation'", however, this is not necessarily the case.  "Many are called" to this, even those called also to married life.  This stage just further purifies their intentions in marriage, ordering more distinctly to God as their objective.  (Again, I'm not talking about mortal sins, or not necessarily even venial, but the faults of desires that are themselves not disordered, but disordered only in the sense of either their disproportion, or simply that they come from more or fallen nature than from God's intention for us individually.  A common example of this I have heard is to the effect, "I will give/be in a better position to give/ be able to give/etc. God what He wants of me, when He gives me what I want/need in terms of a spouse.)

ALL TOO OFTEN people look to relationships as a means of filling the void of their soul which desires to be filled with Christ.   Yes, it is true that marriage can be a way of sanctification, and that sanctification can take place between two holy, Christ-pursuing people, on the other hand ... few desire to travel this path with a partner, let alone on their own.  Rather, they look to a partner as a crutch, and relief from the world and the flesh (and of course, the devil knows this and tries to convince us of the need to be "practical" in the spiritual life, as if developing serious daily prayer is not for everyone).

Chant, if you met someone who was truly prayerful (in daily contemplative prayer) and even Novos Ordo --- thank goodness you married her -- since she would be one in at least close to a million.  However, with similar odds to find a potential husband --- and the process of having to endure people who could care less about these types of discussions let alone putting it into practice --- I think, by far, for most of us --- those sites are a waste of time and energy, and at worse, a dissipation of grace.  I think most "trads" know just what I am talking about, and the answer most often is to overlook that, try anyway, and eventually make a compromise.

I, personally, cannot imagine myself attracted to someone who is not willing to do the spiritual work to further their authentic relationship with Christ.  To me, it just seems like tempting God (really playing with 'fire') to look to meet someone where everything ELSE is great, and just hope that the 'rest' will fall into place.  Maybe I am stubborn, but if I am, it's not because I've been choosing an easier path.  And it's not that I think I am better than anyone else I've met, it's just that from the many people I've met on these such sites, it seems that of the friends I've made few have shown signs of being sincere in following the path of prayer that leads to a closer intimacy with Christ.

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Joan, I'm just disappointed that it came from you since I have had respect for this site due in part to your contribution.

It is ironic that I would be lumped in with the Opus Dei and EWTN, since I've taken both of them on and one point or another (especially EWTN).  I was once told by one of their "Assistant Staff Theologians" that I denied Vatican II.  When I asked him what he meant and we eventually came to the conclusion that it was merely a pastoral council, he apparently remained confused and said that the Church no longer believes it to be the only means of reaching Heaven (this was about a month before the Holy See reiterated the Dogma of no salvation outside the Church).    A few times it happened inadvertantly on the air.  One example was I happened to catch a live show on the radio.  I was all enthused that Mark Martinoni (sp?) was discussing the Blessed Mother (promoting his new book) in a series of discussions.  I phoned in to mention the book "True Devotion" and how the Preparation for Consecration helped me to have True Devotion to Jesus through Mary.  I had to quietly hang up while he immediately lambasted me on the air saying, "NO BOOK CAN EVERY CAUSE SOMEONE A CONVERSION!"  and went on to say it was untrue, and that eventually I would fall away.  Another time I contacted the head of a local 'catholic' radio station and told them why I wouldn't want to support them.  I had pointed out several recent shows that they had been airing that put the virginity of Joseph in question, and even the continuous virginity of Mary in question, and the hosts were saying that there was "proof" that Jesus had half brothers.  I also pointed out another show (date/time aired/ name of show/show host) where the host said that few people now go to hell because most people today are well-educated monotheists.   (This was actually a show other than on EWTN, but I've heard very similar type things from various EWTN hosts.)  The manager circulated my letter, and all heck broke loose... not in defense of what I wrote, but against me personally in relation to my 'naive' defense of the Church Fathers.  (I had one person chase me into the street as I rushed to my car after having read the letter on the very 'issue' of defending the Church Fathers.)  

Before I realized all the trouble this would cause (I was, infact, naive to how people actually hate the traditions of the Church), I had simultaneously written to one of the hosts of the show that said all the nasty stuff about St. Joseph, our Lord and our Lady (I had already been in amicable correspondence with the host for a while).  Well, he was miffed and admitted he didn't study theology, but was trained for two weeks to be a host, but that he would trust sooner the main host of the show than anyone else (including the Church Fathers!).   The main show of the host, however, did end up apologizing on his website and taking down the reiteration of these insults to the Holy Family from his site, and stopped the non-sense (as far as I could tell) on his show (at least for the next few shows, since I stopped listening to "Catholic" radio after this).    A week later I learned that the so-called "evidence" and "proof" that the host referred to against the virginity of Joseph was a fraud, and that it had been revealed as such for some time well before his lauding (btw; this was the alleged crypt labeled "James, brother of Jesus" that was a fraud... in other words, it was NOT an old crypt dated back to the time of Jesus at all, but a direct attempt to deceive people away from the truth).  That aside, the group that this "Catholic" non-theologian, "biblical scholar" was touting on the air for their "discover" was no other that the BAS (Biblical Archeological Society) --- made up of Jєωs, and an antagonist.... sorry... a agnostic who studied in a Weslyan university.  NONE of them were theologians of even the bad kind, let alone Catholic theologians, yet, ironically, they would make it their business to tour universities (many Catholic) to discuss the theological implications of their "findings".

I could go on and on about how irresponsible EWTN has been, and how the bad, very unfortunately, overshadows the good that's happening in that network.   (I mean this because who could rely on a network that is even the least bit untrue on issues of faith and morals?)


Regarding the FSSP, it is not only made up of predominantly very good, traditional priest, the laity, as well, as well-formed and informed in the faith, and very much in line with the teachings of the Church in both intrinsic and extrinsic traditions.  It's a fact that the Extraordinary Form is taking root thanks in large part to the tremendous growth experienced by the FSSP communities and seminaries.  Thanks be to God!  And I would DEFINITELY not compare the FSSP to EWTN or the Opus Dei.  

I highly doubt you will find any FSSP Chaplains that hire chefs or even plain cooks, or spend much time with concerns outside of the communities to which they are each assigned.  And, because of the attraction they have for people wanting the traditional Mass now, and even curious people who've never attended the Extraordinary Form, their communities are growing rapidly.  (They don't suffer the unfortunate and misguided reputation of being schismatics, as with the SSPX)  Still, they get hit by both their friends of the SSPX and often their local Bishops.  

But more important than politics, is the formation of the laity.  The diocese to which I belong conducted surveys to all the churches within their jurisdiction (even ones that were not infact parishes, such as the one to which I belong).  The purpose of the surveys was to learn about the communities themselves, where to best develop hispanic communities, and also, what churches should be closed down and which communities could be consolidated.  Anyway, by the Archbishops own admission, he said that the resounding response for why people came to our community was for the sole purpose of growing in holiness.  (Apparently that is an ususual aspiration for communities within most dioceses.)  In my experience, most FSSPers are the same way in every FSSP community.  This had not, however, been my experience with traditional communities (that I've personally known) outside of the FSSP.   No where else but in FSSP communities have I seen so many joyful families, even through all sorts of sufferings -- and with a great eagerness to pursue a deeper relationship with Christ above all else.  There is also a tremendous diversity in proportion to various age groups --- young, middle-aged and elderly --- more so than any other communities I've seen.  Also, it seems that in my own community, 2/3rds (at least) attend Mass frequently (more than just Sundays and Holy Days), and almost 1/4 attend daily.   The theology classes are packed, both with the junior classes and the adult classes.  Our weekly coffee and donuts is enjoyed by most of the community's members.  During this time, 8-9x out of 10 the conversations are related in some way to the faith.  We remain there until we have to leave, only because we don't own the church.  (So, majority stay for about an hour to 2 hours.)  Immediately after Mass almost everyone remains kneeling in thanksgiving for some time.  Also, there is hardly a day that is without a line for Confession before Mass, and often after Mass (on Sundays there is a line before, during Mass while Confessions continue after Mass until all have been heard).

If I described to you many of the regular, frequent pious acts of the small children in the community it would break your heart.   Many seem very much in genuine love of our Lord.  They are little saints with tremendous supernatural grace, giving the most devout genuflections, and thoughtful Signs of the Cross. Often you will see a mother have to pull her child up off his/her knees from remaining too long infront of the statue of the Blessed Mother.  (That is to whom many of them first go when they enter the church.)  And I could go on with similar examples of the piety of these children.

Since these people have such a genuine love for our Lord, they are often in the crossfire for his sake.  I've lost track of how many Legion of Mary communities we have---all very active in their regions.  They are not afraid to talk to any Catholic.  

Several of the large families in our community are very active in prolife demonstrations, and it is further encouraged by our Chaplain and Assistant Chaplain (who is present at the the demonstrations).  Children attend, and sometimes will remain in all sorts of weather during these protests --- and for hours.

In many churches people get sleepy during the sermons.  Ask them what the priest talked about an hour later and they couldn't tell you.   In our community, all our Sunday and Holy Day semons are recorded, and many of us can't wait 'till they come out --- that we record our own to have immediately.  Several record the daily sermons... it is not unusual for people to share the sermon from Friday or Saturday that they missed.
 
So, no, Joan, I am not hurt, because I realize that for anyone to say such a thing they have no idea of what the FSSP communities are really like.

Mousey, that was a beautiful and accurate description of the FSSP communities.

Quote from: JoanScholastica

Speaking of CM, is there any traditional Catholic dating forum already? Most people there are from EWTN/FSSP/Opus Dei. And members there are getting immoral as well. In my 1 year of stay there, I’ve encountered only 1 guy who’s traditionalist (SSPX adherent).  Quite unusual…

 

And, Joan, I belong to and FSSP community.  The last I heard was that the SSPX did not have the corner on the true Church.

Where did she ever say or even imply that they did? Joan merely relayed the experience she had on CM with one traditionalist that also was an SSPX adherent.

So, no, Joan, I am not hurt, because I realize that for anyone to say such a thing they have no idea of what the FSSP communities are really like.

You shouldn't be hurt nor do you have reason to be. Joan said nothing hurtful or even anything that could be taken to be hurtful. I think you owe her an apology, IMHO.


P.S. Why are you posting under a new screen name and not your old "Ancilla_Indigna" one?

I am "Ancilla Indigna" as on Fisheaters.

http://www.cathinfo.com/bb/index.php?a=topic&t=3795

I bring attention to what Mike Solimanto said in this thread: http://www.cathinfo.com/bb/index.php?a=topic&t=3577.

I don't think Joan was trying to say anything hurtful either, John.

Mousey,

Welcome back!