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Author Topic: Mass - how often ?  (Read 14162 times)

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Offline Udkme

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Mass - how often ?
« on: Today at 08:16:54 AM »
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    • Given the paucity of real liturgies, could we talk about Mass attendance and the factors that play into that like distance/travel time, extraordinary holy days, mobilizing families, crying babies, guilt/scruples, etc

    And also, for lack of a Mass, routines for keeping THE day holy
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Mass - how often ?
    « Reply #1 on: Today at 02:58:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Udkme on Today at 08:16:54 AM
    Given the paucity of real liturgies, could we talk about Mass attendance and the factors that play into that like distance/travel time, extraordinary holy days, mobilizing families, crying babies, guilt/scruples, etc

    And also, for lack of a Mass, routines for keeping THE day holy
    The further the distance, the more planning may be needed, if that means you can only go a few times a year, then that's what it means, go as often as you can.

    You should not have guilt or scruples about this, the Church obligates us to go to Mass every Sunday and Holy Day under pain of sin, but it is conditional upon the Church providing a Church near enough, if the Church does not provide you with a Church that is near enough, then you are not under that obligation.

    I would think at minimum, you should read your missal as best as you can for that particular Sunday or Holy Day, pray an extra rosary, do some spiritual reading etc. whenever you cannot go. Listen to some traditional sermons, Youtube and a lot of other sites have a lot of those. And pray God sends you a true orthodox priest.

    As for crying babies, sit in the first few pews closest to the altar, you might still hear the crying babies, but they won't distract like they can when you sit in the middle or farther back pews.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Mass - how often ?
    « Reply #2 on: Today at 03:37:30 PM »
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    • Here is a quote from a theologian named Fr. Prummer, who wrote a book of moral theology in the early 20th century. His teaching tells us what the Church considers our obligation.



    Quote
    Reasons that excuse [from attending Mass]. Any moderately grave reason generally excuses one from attending Mass, or any notable difficulty or harm in the goods of soul or body of oneself or another. Since the precept does not pertain to more serious matters, any truly grave cause excuses from its observation. Four kinds of causes of this type can be counted: a) moral inability; b) charity; c) duty; d) custom.

    In judging excusing causes in the concrete, whether they are sufficient or not, one must pay attention both to the condition of the person we're speaking of, because something grave for one person is not grave for someone else, and also to the state of conscience, since someone of fearful conscience will not easily exaggerate the inconvenience nor seek excuses to shirk his obligation.

    1. By moral impossibility, of the kind that is any grave difficulty, are excused:

    a) Those who long a long distance from the church. According to St. Alphonsus, all people (even healthy people) are excused by a journey on foot of an hour and a quarter, and by a shorter distance if the weather is bad or if the person is extremely weak; but those who can be carried are not excused unless the distance is at least twice that long.

    Busenbaum is right to add here, that in this matter we must consider the nature of the custom of the place, and certainly in the mountainous region where I live, i.e. the Tyrol, no one considers himself excused if he is an hour and a quarter away from the church, as long as he is not in bad health.

    [...]

    Those who must make a necessary journey or are unable to interrupt one already begun.


    So if you had to walk to church on foot, and it took you 75 minutes each way, St. Alphonsus says it would be mortally sinful for you to omit Mass even one time. Okay, 74 minutes, since the line is drawn here at 75 minutes, each way.

    I have to wonder what so many trads are going to say at the judgment when they tell God that they lived "too far away" to go to Mass on Sunday, who lived a comfortable 30-45 minutes away from church in a climate controlled vehicle where all they had to do was push one of two pedals and turn a wheel. According to St. Alphonsus, it's not going to go well for them.

    Or people who go on vacation instead of going to Mass on Sunday, or head out to the mountains for the weekend all the time, and skip Mass.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Mass - how often ?
    « Reply #3 on: Today at 04:20:08 PM »
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    • OK, but let's not "scrupulize" people here by finding one of the strictest opinions regarding the matter.

    Bishop Sanborn delivered an excellent summary of the matter.  On details like the exact length of time, e.g. 74 minutes, where 75 would suddenly constitute mortal sin, those really do vary with the theologian, and, even according to St. Alphonsus, one is not obliged to go with the strictest opinion.  When we get weird about details, we have to be careful not to slide over into Pharisaical legalism.  Church has always been reasonable, and about common sense.  I personally would be a bit stricter on some of these points than what Bishop Sanborn here cites, but not because I believe it binds anyone else's conscience, or even mine, for that matter, but just because I might want to do more than the minimum to the extent that I can do so.



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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Mass - how often ?
    « Reply #4 on: Today at 04:26:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on Today at 04:20:08 PM
    OK, but let's not "scrupulize" people here by finding one of the strictest opinions regarding the matter.
    .

    Okay, are you able to provide a pre-Vatican 2 theologian that gives a lower threshold? I'm not sure why you are saying the opinion of St. Alphonsus is one of the strictest. Normally St. Alphonsus was not on the strict side of most questions, and tried pretty hard to give the most lenient opinion he could.

    So the 75 minute threshold is more likely the least strict opinion.
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    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Mass - how often ?
    « Reply #5 on: Today at 07:33:09 PM »
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    • Be careful with the scruples, fellows.

    Another theologian's opinion on this matter:


    Quote
    MORAL THEOLOGY

    A Complete Course Based on St. Thomas Aquinas and the Best Modern
    Authorities

    BY
    JOHN A. MCHUGH, O.P.
    AND
    CHARLES J. CALLAN, O.P.

    Imprimatur
    + FRANCIS CARDINAL SPELLMAN
    Archbishop of New York

    New York, May 24, 1958




    Quote
    2584. Excuses from Observance of First Precept.--These reasons may be
    reduced to two classes, namely, external reasons (i.e., a dispensation
    or a lawful custom) and internal reasons (i.e., one's own inability or
    necessity).

    (a) External Reasons.--Dispensations may be given under certain
    conditions by local Ordinaries, by parish-priests, and by superiors of
    exempt clerical institutes (Canon 1245). Custom in certain places
    excuses from Mass for a month women who have just given birth to a
    child or who have lost their husband by death, and also--from the Mass
    in which their banns are to be proclaimed--those women who are about to
    marry. Custom further permits necessary labors, such as cooking,
    ordinary housecleaning, barbering, the work of railroad and garage men,
    etc.

    (b) Internal Reasons.--Impossibility or serious inconvenience excuses
    from hearing Mass (e.g., those who have to walk an hour's journey to
    church or ride a two hours' journey, regarding which, in terms of
    distance travelled, it has been suggested that the figures should be
    more than three miles each way if one must walk, more than thirty miles
    if a car is available and the roads are good; those who will suffer
    great detriment to health, honor, fortune, etc., if they go; those who
    are kept away by duties of charity or employment or office that cannot
    be omitted). Necessity or duty to others permits one to work on Sunday
    at least to some extent (e.g., those who must labor on a Sunday in
    order to live, or to keep out of serious trouble, or to perform
    services or works of charity that cannot easily be done at another
    time). To avoid self-deception the faithful should consult their pastor
    or other prudent person if there is doubt about the sufficiency of the
    excuse.

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    Online Freind

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    Re: Mass - how often ?
    « Reply #6 on: Today at 07:52:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Today at 02:58:14 PM
    The further the distance, the more planning may be needed, if that means you can only go a few times a year, then that's what it means, go as often as you can.

    You should not have guilt or scruples about this, the Church obligates us to go to Mass every Sunday and Holy Day under pain of sin, but it is conditional upon the Church providing a Church near enough, if the Church does not provide you with a Church that is near enough, then you are not under that obligation.

    I would think at minimum, you should read your missal as best as you can for that particular Sunday or Holy Day, pray an extra rosary, do some spiritual reading etc. whenever you cannot go. Listen to some traditional sermons, Youtube and a lot of other sites have a lot of those. And pray God sends you a true orthodox priest.

    As for crying babies, sit in the first few pews closest to the altar, you might still hear the crying babies, but they won't distract like they can when you sit in the middle or farther back pews.

    What priests could you recommend by name?
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Mass - how often ?
    « Reply #7 on: Today at 07:54:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on Today at 04:26:15 PM
    .

    Okay, are you able to provide a pre-Vatican 2 theologian that gives a lower threshold? I'm not sure why you are saying the opinion of St. Alphonsus is one of the strictest. Normally St. Alphonsus was not on the strict side of most questions, and tried pretty hard to give the most lenient opinion he could.

    So the 75 minute threshold is more likely the least strict opinion.

    Bishop Sanborn summarizes the theological consensus at time as being an hour ... without any distinction made for, say, doubling it, or something along those lines, because you're in a car.  But all these times are generally considered rules of thumb and not absolutes, since other circuŠ¼stances can often weigh in.  So, for instance, let's say you're travelling, and you make a stop on a Sunday.  Yes, there's a Mass 45 minutes away, but it would require you to backtrack (and let's say you couldn't find anywhere else to stay for that evening) ... things like that.  Or, yeah, it may be 30 minutes away, but the weather is bad.  Is it bad enough to not risk the trip?  Well, it might be for someone uncomfortable driving in the weather, or someone who has crappy tires (couldn't afford better), but then might not be for someone with dedicated Winter tires in an all-wheel drive vehicle.  30 minutes might be too long for an elderly person who would be white-knuckling the streering wheel the entire time.  Perhaps a single guy might risk the drive (as I often did when I was younger, freezing rain be darned), but I would never drive in those conditions with 6 kids in the car.  There are just SO MANY things that could factor into a decision that, as Bishop Sanborn says, you should ask a priest if you can.  But in general the Church is very reasonable and always consistent with common sense.  If you make a judgement call (can't have 100 people calling the priest every time it snows, based on a weather forecast, weighing in a bunch of factors like your own comfort driving, the state of your vehicle, the temperatues, whether you have vulnerable travellers with you, whether your route takes you into the boonies where if you break down you could be stranded for a while, and you could even make the pre-emptive call because, say, the forecast indicates a chance of freezing rain by the time Mass is over.

    In all cases, if you're making a decision based on reasonable considerations, and not because you're lazy or trying to get out of it, just looking for an excuse to skip ... with the litmus test in any toss-up type of situation being that you're upset about having to miss (an indication of not having ulterior motives in making the judgment) ... then the Church would not condemn you or consider you guilty of mortal sin.
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