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Author Topic: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach  (Read 4206 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2022, 11:41:34 AM »
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  • Yes, it seems the main difference between the SSPX and the Resistance are that the Resistance sees ANYTHING coming from Rome as Modernist and to be rejected outright, while the SSPX makes the distinction of what is Modernist and what is traditionally acceptable without harm to the Faith.

    With regards to the topic of ordinary jurisdiction for marriage, as you acknowledged even in your own marriage case, the SSPX priest then wouldn't have had a problem consenting to accept the delegation IF GIVEN, because BY ITSELF ordinary delegation that is given poses no harm to the Faith if the couple is given proper Catholic instructions for marriage and not refused the Traditional Matrimony Rites by a fully Traditional Catholic priest.

    Your first paragraph implies that placing oneself under modernist authorities is not harmful to the faith.  Yes, we would fundamentally disagree on that point.

    Your second paragraph exposes the difference between accordist SSPX priests (such as the one mentioned), and the Seven Deans (and allied congregations who also signed on to the letter.

    In both instances, I would ask you to now reflect on whose position -yours or mine; accordist or resistance- better reflects Lefebvre's post-1988 position.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline trento

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    Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
    « Reply #31 on: December 09, 2022, 12:11:12 AM »
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  • Your first paragraph implies that placing oneself under modernist authorities is not harmful to the faith.  Yes, we would fundamentally disagree on that point.

    Your second paragraph exposes the difference between accordist SSPX priests (such as the one mentioned), and the Seven Deans (and allied congregations who also signed on to the letter.

    In both instances, I would ask you to now reflect on whose position -yours or mine; accordist or resistance- better reflects Lefebvre's post-1988 position.

    My first paragraph implies no such thing because I merely mentioned that distinctions need to be made. Obtaining ordinary delegation is good by itself provided no concessions to Modernism are involved such as having the NOM or harmful matrimonial instructions imposed upon the couple. Do not read more into something that does not exist.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
    « Reply #32 on: December 09, 2022, 05:42:20 AM »
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  • My first paragraph implies no such thing because I merely mentioned that distinctions need to be made. Obtaining ordinary delegation is good by itself provided no concessions to Modernism are involved such as having the NOM or harmful matrimonial instructions imposed upon the couple. Do not read more into something that does not exist.
    ::)
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
    « Reply #33 on: December 09, 2022, 08:59:36 AM »
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  • Sean's back!
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
    « Reply #34 on: December 10, 2022, 10:49:00 AM »
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  • Obtaining ordinary delegation is good by itself provided no concessions to Modernism are involved."

    This perspective overlooks the fact that the willingness to subject oneself to uncatholic authority is already a concession, and danger to the faith:

    "And when one year later, Rome seemed to make true gestures of benevolence towards Tradition, Archbishop Lefebvre was always wary. He feared that they are only “maneuvers to separate us from the largest number of faithful possible. This is the perspective in which they seem to be always giving a little more and even going very far. We must absolutely convince our faithful that it is no more than a maneuvers, that it is dangerous to put oneself into the hands of Conciliar bishops and Modernist Rome. It is the greatest danger threatening our people. If we have struggled for twenty years to avoid the Conciliar errors, it was not in order, now, to put ourselves in the hands of those professing these errors.” According to Archbishop Lefebvre the characteristic of the Society is, more than to just denounce the errors by their name, but rather to effectively and publicly oppose the Roman authorities which have spread them. How will one be able to make an agreement and make this public resistance to the authorities, including the Pope? And after having fought during more than forty years, will the Society now have to be put into the hands of the modernists and liberals whose pertinacity we have just come to observe?

    -Letter of the Three Bishops to the General Counsel

    If the devil wants to give me soup, and soup is in itself good, and the devil requires nothing more of me that that I request the soup from him, do I endanger my soul by making this request of the devil?

    But, but soup is good!
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline trento

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    Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
    « Reply #35 on: December 10, 2022, 12:44:51 PM »
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  • This perspective overlooks the fact that the willingness to subject oneself to uncatholic authority is already a concession, and danger to the faith:

    "And when one year later, Rome seemed to make true gestures of benevolence towards Tradition, Archbishop Lefebvre was always wary. He feared that they are only “maneuvers to separate us from the largest number of faithful possible. This is the perspective in which they seem to be always giving a little more and even going very far. We must absolutely convince our faithful that it is no more than a maneuvers, that it is dangerous to put oneself into the hands of Conciliar bishops and Modernist Rome. It is the greatest danger threatening our people. If we have struggled for twenty years to avoid the Conciliar errors, it was not in order, now, to put ourselves in the hands of those professing these errors.” According to Archbishop Lefebvre the characteristic of the Society is, more than to just denounce the errors by their name, but rather to effectively and publicly oppose the Roman authorities which have spread them. How will one be able to make an agreement and make this public resistance to the authorities, including the Pope? And after having fought during more than forty years, will the Society now have to be put into the hands of the modernists and liberals whose pertinacity we have just come to observe?

    -Letter of the Three Bishops to the General Counsel

    If the devil wants to give me soup, and soup is in itself good, and the devil requires nothing more of me that that I request the soup from him, do I endanger my soul by making this request of the devil?

    But, but soup is good!

    It is disingenuous to take the context out of the Letter of the Three Bishops when there are certain factions within the Society then in favor of a practical agreement without first agreeing on doctrine.

    There is nothing un-Catholic about obtaining ordinary delegation as this is even mentioned in the 1917 Code of Canon Law. The Society recognizes those "sitting on the chair of Moses" as Our Lord puts it but resist we should if they attempt to force un-Catholic teachings and a Protestantized mass. Those sitting in authority may act like followers of the devil at times, but to say they are the devil himself makes you no different from rabid Protestants.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
    « Reply #36 on: December 10, 2022, 01:24:42 PM »
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  • It is disingenuous to take the context out of the Letter of the Three Bishops when there are certain factions within the Society then in favor of a practical agreement without first agreeing on doctrine.

    There is nothing un-Catholic about obtaining ordinary delegation as this is even mentioned in the 1917 Code of Canon Law. The Society recognizes those "sitting on the chair of Moses" as Our Lord puts it but resist we should if they attempt to force un-Catholic teachings and a Protestantized mass. Those sitting in authority may act like followers of the devil at times, but to say they are the devil himself makes you no different from rabid Protestants.

    Hi Trento-

    I didn't expect to convince you.  Just wanted to show you how your faction has departed from the position of Archbishop Lefebvre.

    I realize you think that's justified (i.e., you drank +Fellay's KoolAid), and are perfectly content to ignore the founder in deference to his unfaithful successor.

    At least you have the honesty to admit your departure (unlike most of your colleagues/side).

    Like Fr. Barrielle warned: Religious congregations last about 40 years before they go astray, and require a reform movement to return to fidelity,

    You are the former; we are the latter.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
    « Reply #37 on: December 10, 2022, 02:09:26 PM »
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  • Hi Trento-

    I didn't expect to convince you.  Just wanted to show you how your faction has departed from the position of Archbishop Lefebvre.

    I realize you think that's justified (i.e., you drank +Fellay's KoolAid), and are perfectly content to ignore the founder in deference to his unfaithful successor.

    At least you have the honesty to admit your departure (unlike most of your colleagues/side).

    Like Fr. Barrielle warned: Religious congregations last about 40 years before they go astray, and require a reform movement to return to fidelity,

    You are the former; we are the latter.

    I recall this wedding in Canada, where the SSPX couple chose to be married according to these new rules:



    The conciliar priest in his faggy, modernist vestments receives the consent, with SSPX priest (Fr. Vachon) looking on like a dope from a distance (at left).

    The ensuing bruhaha elicited a passionate and defensive commentary to The Remnant from the compromised groom, in which he declared that which your faction had been trying so hard to hide (the faithful being more honest than the clergy):

    "We no longer have the bitterness of the previous generation."

    Indeed, a whole new (branded) toothless spirit had infected the SSPX, just as it first infected the conciliar Chuch (like a communicable disease, passed from the latter to the former), which robbed it of its will to fight; to right the ship; to prefer authority to truth.  The salt had lost its savor, and was good for nothing...

    But there's no danger of infection, mind you!

    Fr. Barrielle's warning (1982): “I am writing this to serve as a lesson for everyone. The day that the SSPX abandons the spirit and rules of its Founder, it will be lost.”

    Fr. Libietis commenting: "Fr. Ludovic Barrielle (the priest chosen by Archbishop Lefebvre to be the spiritual director of his seminary in Ecône) once said that the time it takes for a religious order to start to drift from its founder’s moorings is around 40 years. Today, 40 or so years after the founding of the SSPX, we see serious problems and divisions facing the SSPX (or the NOVUS–SSPX ). When religious orders thus drift away, a reform is usually carried out by some, in order to recapture the original ideals, attitudes and spirit of their founders."
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
    « Reply #38 on: December 10, 2022, 09:05:23 PM »
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  • "We no longer have the bitterness of the previous generation."

    This about says it all.  This is precisely what's going on, where the "Tradle" crads no longer feel that there's a battle between Tradition and Modernism, the Modern world.

    Those priests who knew what the battle was about, from the trenches and the front lines, as the Conciliar Revolution rolled out ... those are starting to die off, leaving with us those who not only have no clue but who are being boiled in the pot like the proverbial frogs.  Most of these Tradle Crads are simply Modernists who prefer the smells and bells.

    How else do you get the book of Modernis Heretic Fr. Paul Robinson actively promoted by the SSPX?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
    « Reply #39 on: December 10, 2022, 10:48:16 PM »
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  • This about says it all.  This is precisely what's going on, where the "Tradle" crads no longer feel that there's a battle between Tradition and Modernism, the Modern world.

    Those priests who knew what the battle was about, from the trenches and the front lines, as the Conciliar Revolution rolled out ... those are starting to die off, leaving with us those who not only have no clue but who are being boiled in the pot like the proverbial frogs.  Most of these Tradle Crads are simply Modernists who prefer the smells and bells.

    How else do you get the book of Modernis Heretic Fr. Paul Robinson actively promoted by the SSPX?

    Although the GREC branding plan had already been conceived and commenced a few years prior, +Fellay giving Archbishop Di Noia a platform in the Cor Unum to address all Society priests, exhorting them to drop the sword of combat against Roman modernism, and focus instead on spirituality, was received by the rank and file clergy as marching orders directly from the Superior General.

    When the combat ceased, and perplexed faithful began to suspect that the SSPX superiors were forbidding the priests to preach against Vatican II, relations with Rome, and conciliar modernism, the priests were all able to reply with a heavy mental reservation, and say, “My superiors haven’t told me not to preach against those things.”

    No, it was +Fellay sending Di Noia’s  letter telling you not to.  But they certainly got the message, as everyone knows simply from the universal and substantial change in preaching which kicked in after that letter (where it hadn’t already).

    The faithful had only to watch in amazement the spectacle and fate of persecuted priests who dared to defy the “request of Di Noia” to know that in fact, topics like Roman modernism which passed for normal yesterday were today off limits.

    The new spirit, sown by 15 years of branding, is one which has no problem collaborating with the FSSP, or dioceses; it’s one which secretly hated the old SSPX, and which would walk out the door tomorrow if Francis revoked his quid pro quo jurisdictional concessions (precisely as Dom Laurenco described to the priest of Campos: They will not come to you for reasons of faith, but because the legal obstacles have been removed).

    Possibly, when Lefebvre was alive, some of them would have been drawn toward him and truth by his magnetism (while others secretly disagreed all along).  But when he died, recalling that nature abhors a vacuum, the magnet of truth -for the leaders of the SSPX especially- was replaced by the magnet of authority: A corrupt Roman authority dislodged from truth).

    Then began the long betrayal.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline trento

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    Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
    « Reply #40 on: December 11, 2022, 03:47:37 AM »
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  • I will not go into the subjective point of view of individual laity whom you termed the "SSPX couple" (note - there is no such thing) but will only argue what can be objectively known.

    Between 1970 and 1975, the priests of the Society of St. Pius X who had to celebrate a wedding ordinarily asked for and received the necessary delegation from the local pastor. From 1975 on, after the alleged “suppression” of the Society of St. Pius X, this delegation was usually denied the priests of the Society of St. Pius X (except by a few priest friends) under the false pretense that their status in the Church was irregular.
    ......

    Nevertheless, as its name indicates, the “extraordinary form” is outside of the ordinary; it can not become ordinary. It can exist only in the case where the “ordinary form” is not possible. Canon 1094, which deals with the “ordinary form”, is an “absolute” canon, which begins quite clearly: “Only those marriages are valid....” Canon 1098, about the “extraordinary form”, is only a “conditional” canon, which starts: “If...cannot,” and includes still more restrictions, such as “provided it is prudently foreseen....” The absolute and unconditional norm of marriage is therefore the “ordinary form”, whereas the “extraordinary form” is only exceptional, relative, and occasional.
    ......

    The fourth objection insists that agreeing to make use of Cardinal Müller’s Letter would ipso facto be tantamount to putting marriages according to the traditional rite into the hands of the bishops and of the Roman Curia (fierce enemies of Tradition), since these marriages would henceforth depend on the permission that they would grant...or not. This objection would be pertinent only if the Society of St. Pius X absolutely and definitively renounced the usage of the “extraordinary form”. But there are no plans whatsoever to do that. The grave state of necessity created by the crisis in the Church remains more valid than ever, and without any possible doubt it authorizes recourse, if necessary, to the “extraordinary form”. What Cardinal Müller’s letter accomplishes therefore is not a restriction of the possibilities, but rather the addition of the possibility of the “ordinary form”. And since in some cases the use of this “ordinary form” will prove to be difficult or impossible, recourse to the “extraordinary form” will remain perfectly justified. The bishops therefore will not be able to “blackmail” the Society of St. Pius X with regard to its marriages, inasmuch as an unjustified refusal of a delegation, in addition to other objective circuмstances, would altogether authorize the use of the “extraordinary form”, as has been so until now.
    .........

    The seventh objection assumes that agreeing to marry according to the “ordinary form” while requesting delegation would be a failure to profess the Faith publicly and to criticize the errors of Vatican II. In effect, the state of separation, contradiction, and conflict between Tradition and the “conciliar” Church, manifested by the canonical sanctions and the refusal of the official authorities of the Church to grant to the Society of St. Pius X what would be just and normal (for example jurisdiction, delegation for marriages, etc.), is like a “catechism in pictures” of the crisis in the Church. Upright souls who are seeking the truth, upon observing that the Society of St. Pius X is persecuted while adhering to what the Catholic Church has always taught and done, are led to think correctly that the official authorities of the Church are in error. By marrying according to the “ordinary form” thanks to a delegation received from an “official” bishop, the Society of St. Pius X would weaken in its battle against the errors of Vatican II.

    This objection confuses the reality of the radical opposition between the Catholic Faith and the errors of conciliar liberalism with certain concrete situations that may accidentally manifest it. In the 1970’s, Tradition had taken refuge in makeshift shelters; then, in most localities, they bought or built a church: is anyone going to say that the battle for the Faith grew lukewarm as a result? When a priest of the Society of St. Pius X requests the use of a shrine for a pilgrimage, is anyone going to say that the battle for the Faith is diminished if he obtains permission, as compared with a refusal to grant it? When Pope Benedict XVI acknowledges that the old rite was never abolished, is anyone going to say that the defense of the traditional liturgy by the Society of St. Pius X and the heroic resistance of Archbishop Lefebvre to preserve it are discredited as a result? And so on.

    ........


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
    « Reply #41 on: December 11, 2022, 04:51:45 AM »
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  • I will not go into the subjective point of view of individual laity whom you termed the "SSPX couple" (note - there is no such thing) but will only argue what can be objectively known.

    Between 1970 and 1975, the priests of the Society of St. Pius X who had to celebrate a wedding ordinarily asked for and received the necessary delegation from the local pastor. From 1975 on, after the alleged “suppression” of the Society of St. Pius X, this delegation was usually denied the priests of the Society of St. Pius X (except by a few priest friends) under the false pretense that their status in the Church was irregular.
    ......

    Nevertheless, as its name indicates, the “extraordinary form” is outside of the ordinary; it can not become ordinary. It can exist only in the case where the “ordinary form” is not possible. Canon 1094, which deals with the “ordinary form”, is an “absolute” canon, which begins quite clearly: “Only those marriages are valid....” Canon 1098, about the “extraordinary form”, is only a “conditional” canon, which starts: “If...cannot,” and includes still more restrictions, such as “provided it is prudently foreseen....” The absolute and unconditional norm of marriage is therefore the “ordinary form”, whereas the “extraordinary form” is only exceptional, relative, and occasional.
    ......

    The fourth objection insists that agreeing to make use of Cardinal Müller’s Letter would ipso facto be tantamount to putting marriages according to the traditional rite into the hands of the bishops and of the Roman Curia (fierce enemies of Tradition), since these marriages would henceforth depend on the permission that they would grant...or not. This objection would be pertinent only if the Society of St. Pius X absolutely and definitively renounced the usage of the “extraordinary form”. But there are no plans whatsoever to do that. The grave state of necessity created by the crisis in the Church remains more valid than ever, and without any possible doubt it authorizes recourse, if necessary, to the “extraordinary form”. What Cardinal Müller’s letter accomplishes therefore is not a restriction of the possibilities, but rather the addition of the possibility of the “ordinary form”. And since in some cases the use of this “ordinary form” will prove to be difficult or impossible, recourse to the “extraordinary form” will remain perfectly justified. The bishops therefore will not be able to “blackmail” the Society of St. Pius X with regard to its marriages, inasmuch as an unjustified refusal of a delegation, in addition to other objective circuмstances, would altogether authorize the use of the “extraordinary form”, as has been so until now.
    .........

    The seventh objection assumes that agreeing to marry according to the “ordinary form” while requesting delegation would be a failure to profess the Faith publicly and to criticize the errors of Vatican II. In effect, the state of separation, contradiction, and conflict between Tradition and the “conciliar” Church, manifested by the canonical sanctions and the refusal of the official authorities of the Church to grant to the Society of St. Pius X what would be just and normal (for example jurisdiction, delegation for marriages, etc.), is like a “catechism in pictures” of the crisis in the Church. Upright souls who are seeking the truth, upon observing that the Society of St. Pius X is persecuted while adhering to what the Catholic Church has always taught and done, are led to think correctly that the official authorities of the Church are in error. By marrying according to the “ordinary form” thanks to a delegation received from an “official” bishop, the Society of St. Pius X would weaken in its battle against the errors of Vatican II.

    This objection confuses the reality of the radical opposition between the Catholic Faith and the errors of conciliar liberalism with certain concrete situations that may accidentally manifest it. In the 1970’s, Tradition had taken refuge in makeshift shelters; then, in most localities, they bought or built a church: is anyone going to say that the battle for the Faith grew lukewarm as a result? When a priest of the Society of St. Pius X requests the use of a shrine for a pilgrimage, is anyone going to say that the battle for the Faith is diminished if he obtains permission, as compared with a refusal to grant it? When Pope Benedict XVI acknowledges that the old rite was never abolished, is anyone going to say that the defense of the traditional liturgy by the Society of St. Pius X and the heroic resistance of Archbishop Lefebvre to preserve it are discredited as a result? And so on.

    ........

    Nonsense.

    As the Deans stated:

    "The true significance of the Roman docuмent appears in light of these principles. Persisting in the disastrous line of Vatican II, the Roman authorities simply intend to deprive you of the extraordinary form of marriage by denying the state of necessity. Therefore, this docuмent wants to oblige you to have recourse for your marriage to a diocesan priest, only leaving the priests of the SSPX with the possibility of celebrating the Mass which follows the ceremony. The Ecclesia Dei Commission foresees in effect that, “ insofar as possible, the Local Ordinary is to grant the delegation to assist at the marriage to a priest of the Diocese (or in any event, to a fully regular priest), such that the priest may receive the consent of the parties [...], followed ... by the celebration of Mass, which may be celebrated by a priest of the Society”.

    It is only “where the above is not possible, or if there are no priests in the Diocese able to receive the consent of the parties, [that] the Ordinary may grant the necessary faculties to the priest of the Society”. In other words, it is only if there is a case of necessity (whose nature we do not know, because it is no longer the grave damage which the liberal spirit causes to the Catholic Faith) that the Bishop may give delegation to a priest of the Society of Saint Pius X. Every other marriage celebrated by a priest of the SSPX without explicit delegation of the Ordinary will continue to be considered invalid by the current holders of the supreme authority.

    Apart from the fact that such a decision is as unjust as it is null, it is also a further violation of the spirit of the Law. The Ecclesia Dei Commission permits itself to do what even the New Code of Canon Law had not, that is to place the extraordinary form of marriage under the control of the Ordinary, and this at the expense of the natural right to marriage[9].

    Our marriages, most certainly valid yesterday, today and tomorrow

    So long as this dramatic state of the Church and the destructive ambivalence of Its highest authorities last, we will continue for our part to use the extraordinary form of marriage, without allowing ourselves to be unduly controlled by the Ordinary.

    We will, therefore, continue to validly and licitly celebrate your marriages in our churches and chapels, as we have done up to now, referring for this to Canons 1098 of the Old Code and 1116 of the New, irrespective of any prior understanding with the Ordinary.

    To those who object that such a practice would henceforward be invalid since the Ecclesiastical authorities are offering a possible delegation of the Ordinary, we reply that the state of necessity which legitimates our way of doing things is not canonical, but dogmatic, and that the impossibility of having recourse to the current authorities is not a physical, but a moral one."

    That the SSPX initiated sanation proceedings for a marriage it considered invalid for failure to obtain the delegation proves that the SSPX consider that it has now lost access to the extraordinary form of marriage by the promulgation and acceptance of these guidelines.  

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline trento

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    Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
    « Reply #42 on: December 11, 2022, 05:17:33 AM »
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  • Nonsense.

    As the Deans stated:

    "The true significance of the Roman docuмent appears in light of these principles. Persisting in the disastrous line of Vatican II, the Roman authorities simply intend to deprive you of the extraordinary form of marriage by denying the state of necessity. Therefore, this docuмent wants to oblige you to have recourse for your marriage to a diocesan priest, only leaving the priests of the SSPX with the possibility of celebrating the Mass which follows the ceremony. The Ecclesia Dei Commission foresees in effect that, “ insofar as possible, the Local Ordinary is to grant the delegation to assist at the marriage to a priest of the Diocese (or in any event, to a fully regular priest), such that the priest may receive the consent of the parties [...], followed ... by the celebration of Mass, which may be celebrated by a priest of the Society”.

    It is only “where the above is not possible, or if there are no priests in the Diocese able to receive the consent of the parties, [that] the Ordinary may grant the necessary faculties to the priest of the Society”. In other words, it is only if there is a case of necessity (whose nature we do not know, because it is no longer the grave damage which the liberal spirit causes to the Catholic Faith) that the Bishop may give delegation to a priest of the Society of Saint Pius X. Every other marriage celebrated by a priest of the SSPX without explicit delegation of the Ordinary will continue to be considered invalid by the current holders of the supreme authority.

    Apart from the fact that such a decision is as unjust as it is null, it is also a further violation of the spirit of the Law. The Ecclesia Dei Commission permits itself to do what even the New Code of Canon Law had not, that is to place the extraordinary form of marriage under the control of the Ordinary, and this at the expense of the natural right to marriage[9].

    Our marriages, most certainly valid yesterday, today and tomorrow

    So long as this dramatic state of the Church and the destructive ambivalence of Its highest authorities last, we will continue for our part to use the extraordinary form of marriage, without allowing ourselves to be unduly controlled by the Ordinary.

    We will, therefore, continue to validly and licitly celebrate your marriages in our churches and chapels, as we have done up to now, referring for this to Canons 1098 of the Old Code and 1116 of the New, irrespective of any prior understanding with the Ordinary.

    To those who object that such a practice would henceforward be invalid since the Ecclesiastical authorities are offering a possible delegation of the Ordinary, we reply that the state of necessity which legitimates our way of doing things is not canonical, but dogmatic, and that the impossibility of having recourse to the current authorities is not a physical, but a moral one."

    That the SSPX initiated sanation proceedings for a marriage it considered invalid for failure to obtain the delegation proves that the SSPX consider that it has now lost access to the extraordinary form of marriage by the promulgation and acceptance of these guidelines. 

    The context you used to generalize on the matter of delegation wasn't an "if else" scenario. I would be convinced by your arguments if you could show me a case where the SSPX did not receive the delegation with an objectively good reason and still refused to proceed with the extraordinary form.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
    « Reply #43 on: December 11, 2022, 05:37:22 AM »
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  • The context you used to generalize on the matter of delegation wasn't an "if else" scenario. I would be convinced by your arguments if you could show me a case where the SSPX did not receive the delegation with an objectively good reason and still refused to proceed with the extraordinary form.

    That the Society believes refusal to acccept delegation results in nullity is all the proof one requires to demonstrate the correctness of the Deans' position (i.e., that the issuance of these Guidelines was a maneuver to deprive the SSPX of the extraordinary form, and place control of SSPX marriages under modernist authorities, but which only works to the degree one thinks like Trento, instead of like the Deans).

    This in turn also evinces that the neo-SSPX superiors  no longer believe (as the Deans do) that, "To those who object that such a practice would henceforward be invalid since the Ecclesiastical authorities are offering a possible delegation of the Ordinary, we reply that the state of necessity which legitimates our way of doing things is not canonical, but dogmatic, and that the impossibility of having recourse to the current authorities is not a physical, but a moral one."

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline trento

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    Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
    « Reply #44 on: December 11, 2022, 06:16:50 AM »
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  • That the Society believes refusal to acccept delegation results in nullity is all the proof one requires to demonstrate the correctness of the Deans' position (i.e., that the issuance of these Guidelines was a maneuver to deprive the SSPX of the extraordinary form, and place control of SSPX marriages under modernist authorities, but which only works to the degree one thinks like Trento, instead of like the Deans).

    This in turn also evinces that the neo-SSPX superiors  no longer believe (as the Deans do) that, "To those who object that such a practice would henceforward be invalid since the Ecclesiastical authorities are offering a possible delegation of the Ordinary, we reply that the state of necessity which legitimates our way of doing things is not canonical, but dogmatic, and that the impossibility of having recourse to the current authorities is not a physical, but a moral one."

    How can it be dogmatic when canon law pertains to discipline and in the scenario you cited there is nothing dogmatic involved other than "changing one's mind on the day of the wedding to try and make a point"?