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Author Topic: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach  (Read 4198 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2022, 12:51:09 PM »
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  • The law is this:
    i) find a priest with faculties;
    ii) after 30 days, if no priest is found, find any priest (even one suspended);
    iii) if still no priest is available find two public witnesses.
     
    Skip a step and the marriage is invalid.
     
    There was an SSPX priest with delegated faculties who was willing to marry them, but the couple chose one without faculties. Therefore the marriage was invalid. It’s also sounds like the couple didn’t even wait 30 days. The SSPX position is correct.

    Mere certitude on the part of the priest is insufficient for validity as the following Rota case shows:

    “… a priest assisted at the marriage of one of his brothers, it is similarly to be noted that he acted only because he was certain that he was legally capable so to do. In fact, as further testimony bore out, this priest testified that the basis of this action was the assurance of another of his brothers, a priest, who told him that it was not necessary to seek the delegation of the proper pastor, because everything was already taken care of. But, again, the mere existence of certitude on the part of the priest who assisted was not considered enough. The Rota very carefully examined the details of the case; and, when it verified that the proper pastor did not give, and under the circuмstances could not have given, the proper delegation, it declared the marriage invalid.”

    SUPPLIED JURISDICTION ACCORDING TO CANON 209, Miaskiewicz, p..214

    I figured this would draw you from your covert.

    Canon 209 and "the certitude of the priest" are not germane to the conversation.

    At no point has anyone argued that marriages performed without delegation are validated "by the certitude of the priest," but -to the extent canonical justifications are discussed at all- by Canon 1098 and the extraordinary form of marriage.

    As the French deans stated, the real justifications are dogmatic and moral (e.g., necessity; epikeia), and the moral (not physical) impossibility of aproaching/obtaining a conciliar priest for delegation.

    Were I to acquiesce to your argument, I would be forced to conclude -as you must- that all SSPX marriages prior to 2017 are invalid.

    But the truth is, that the same moral impossibility applies to your Steps 1-2 above, thereby justifying the extraordinary form.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline trento

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    Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
    « Reply #16 on: December 07, 2022, 11:34:51 PM »
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  • 2. That is not entirely correct: Supplied jurisdiction is also invoked whenever an SSPX priest without delegation receives the consents of the couple to be married (as was the case in the 40 years prior to the 2017 guidelines of Cardinal Muller), as in the present instance.


    3.  I don't perceive any fault on the part of priest A at all.  It is interesting that you do.

     
    Of course, all this is neither here nor there, and misses the target: The fact that a wedding was performed without conciliar deelegation, and that because of that the SSPX felt compelled to initiate a sanation of the marriage (which heavily implies that the SSPX today doubts the validity of its pre-2017 marriages, since they would all suffer the same aleged defect, for the same reason).

    I would disagree with you on point 2 as supplied jurisdiction is only invoked whenever ordination delegation cannot be obtained without good reason.

    The fact was proper delegation was given to the SSPX priest. Such a delegation does not imply any threats to the Faith as no Novus Ordo marriage ceremony or mass were forced upon the couple.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
    « Reply #17 on: December 08, 2022, 05:24:00 AM »
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  • I would disagree with you on point 2 as supplied jurisdiction is only invoked whenever ordination delegation cannot be obtained without good reason.

    The fact was proper delegation was given to the SSPX priest. Such a delegation does not imply any threats to the Faith as no Novus Ordo marriage ceremony or mass were forced upon the couple.

    Father-

    It has already been explained to you (by the 7 deans in the OP, in addition to 40 years of praxis by your own Society) that:

    “…the state of necessity which legitimates our way of doing things is not canonical, but dogmatic, and that the impossibility of having recourse to the current authorities is not a physical, but a moral one.”

    If you reject this rationale, then the unavoidable logic of your position dictates that you consider all SSPX marriages from 1976-2017 null and void (like your diocesan colleagues):

    To be right today, you had to be wrong for 41 years.  Is that the argument you want to make?

    If you would reply that receiving the delegation dissipated the state of necessity which formerly existed, tge deans have pre-empted that argument as well, with the quote already provided, which was prefaced with:

    To those who object that such a practice would henceforward be invalid since the Ecclesiastical authorities are offering a possible delegation of the Ordinary, we reply that the state of necessity which legitimates our way of doing things is not canonical, but dogmatic, and that the impossibility of having recourse to the current authorities is not a physical, but a moral one.”

    So we arrive back at the starting point: The Society has been persuaded that it’s marriages were invalid after all (as you suggest here), and this is why they initiated a sanation for one of their faithful married without a delegation.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Gunter

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    Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
    « Reply #18 on: December 08, 2022, 05:32:07 AM »
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  • The request to the local ordinary is made by the espoused or sspx priest?  Is this now common practice? 

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
    « Reply #19 on: December 08, 2022, 05:40:16 AM »
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  • The request to the local ordinary is made by the espoused or sspx priest?  Is this now common practice?

    In order to head off local resistance by various priests or faithful (as in the instance above), SSPX delegations are now sought by the SSPX districts.

    Today, if you are married in the SSPX, you are implicitly or explicitly consenting to this procedure.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Gunter

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    Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
    « Reply #20 on: December 08, 2022, 06:42:31 AM »
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  • Does the SSPX have there own annulment tribunal?  Sounds like a a la carte authority menu.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
    « Reply #21 on: December 08, 2022, 08:42:12 AM »
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  • Does the SSPX have there own annulment tribunal?  Sounds like a a la carte authority menu.

    This was never as big a deal for me as it was for some outside the SSPX.

    On the one hand, they're not issuing declarations of nullity.  They're just responding to the issues their faithful present before them, which require pastoral direction, as best they can (e.g., by appointing certain priests to look these matters over, and give their best judgment/opinion on how the Church would rule in normal/sane times).

    In reality, this "canonical commission" isn't doing anything that sedevacantist, Resistance, or independent priests don't do on a regular basis.

    Consider this example:

    A new parishioner (at SSPX, Resistance, sedevacantist, or independent chapel) comes to the priest and says, "Father, I received an annulment from my former Novus Ordo parish, but I would like to now marry Mrs. X.  Am I free to do so?"

    The priest (of whatever group) has a duty ex officio et in caritate to advise the soul one way or the other, and not just for the good of the soul, but for his own (for he will either deny this soul marriage unjustly, or he will commit a sacrilege by witnessing an invalid marriage).

    It doesn't help that the Society calls this group of advisory priests a "canonical commission," which cannotes to some the usurpation of ordinary jurisdiction (insofar as it may conclude by rendering an opinion which "overturns" -or contradicts- a decision of the competent diocesan tribunal), but this is just window dressing, and not signatory of any claim to jurisdiction. 

    But render a decision it must, or both faithful and priest become paralyzed (with the only unacceptable "solution" being to submit oneself back to the unreliable decisions of the Novus Ordo tribunals one was trying to escape from).

    Once one understands that jurisdiction is for souls, and not souls for jurisdiction (with necessity dispensing from the law, in such measure as is necessary to extricate the soul from grave spiriual necessity), then the advisory opinions of the "canonical commission" make sense.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline trento

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    Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
    « Reply #22 on: December 08, 2022, 09:20:53 AM »
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  • Father-

    It has already been explained to you (by the 7 deans in the OP, in addition to 40 years of praxis by your own Society) that:

    “…the state of necessity which legitimates our way of doing things is not canonical, but dogmatic, and that the impossibility of having recourse to the current authorities is not a physical, but a moral one.”

    If you reject this rationale, then the unavoidable logic of your position dictates that you consider all SSPX marriages from 1976-2017 null and void (like your diocesan colleagues):

    To be right today, you had to be wrong for 41 years.  Is that the argument you want to make?

    If you would reply that receiving the delegation dissipated the state of necessity which formerly existed, tge deans have pre-empted that argument as well, with the quote already provided, which was prefaced with:

    To those who object that such a practice would henceforward be invalid since the Ecclesiastical authorities are offering a possible delegation of the Ordinary, we reply that the state of necessity which legitimates our way of doing things is not canonical, but dogmatic, and that the impossibility of having recourse to the current authorities is not a physical, but a moral one.”

    So we arrive back at the starting point: The Society has been persuaded that it’s marriages were invalid after all (as you suggest here), and this is why they initiated a sanation for one of their faithful married without a delegation.

    Hi Sean,

    First of all, I'm not a priest, so please do not call me Father. Just a long-time SSPX chapel mass-goer and observing things in Traddieland.

    Second, the state of necessity does not follow that one goes about rejecting the "ordinary" way of doing things, when canonical delegation is given as requested, but only when it is not given without good reason.

    Quote
    If you reject this rationale, then the unavoidable logic of your position dictates that you consider all SSPX marriages from 1976-2017 null and void (like your diocesan colleagues):

    To be right today, you had to be wrong for 41 years.  Is that the argument you want to make?

    This doesn't logically follow, because you completely ignore the fact that SSPX marriages from 1976-2017 are done usually in these steps:

    1. Couple or together with the SSPX priest makes a request to the local diocese for marrying. During those years, the ordinary delegation is rarely given, except in the rare case of a diocesan bishop friendly to Tradition.
    2. If the delegation is not given within a reasonable period of time or rejected without good reason, the SSPX still proceeds with the marriage invoking supplied jurisdiction. The marriage details are sent to the local diocese or parish of the couple. Whether or not the diocese accepts or enters the marriage details into their records is a separate matter.

    Finally, neither the Society nor Rome has ever declared that marriages done before 2017 without the proper delegation were invalid. The claim that all its prior marriages were invalid is preposterous. See https://sspx.org/en/content/29002

    Quote
    The validity of SSPX Marriages
    From now on, just as we no longer have to invoke an extraordinary jurisdiction to hear confessions validly, we no longer have to invoke the state of necessity to validly marry couples, unless the bishop opposes the new provisions and refuses the delegation requested by the pope.
    This does not mean that the state of grave necessity has come to an end, but only that the authorities of the Church no longer refuse to grant Tradition some means of development. The pre-conciliar Mass was recognized in 2007 as never having been abrogated. The unjust excommunications of the bishops of the Society were lifted in 2009. The non-recognition of the valid ministry of SSPX priests in the sacrament of penance came to an end in 2015. The alleged irregularity of the Society priest, the authorized witness to the sacrament of marriage, has now been lifted, for the good of the spouses. 
    However, just as the sacrament of penance was not invalidly conferred by the priests of the Society of St. Pius X before 2015, neither were the marriages celebrated without the official delegation of the local bishop or parish pastor.
    Indeed, Church law states that in order to be valid, a marriage must be celebrated before the parish priest or his delegate, and in the presence of at least two witnesses (1917 Code, canon 1094; 1983 Code, canon 1108). But the priests of the Society of St. Pius X are not parish priests. That is why some try to pretend that, without a delegation, a priest of this society cannot receive marriage vows. Such a marriage would be invalid because of its lack of canonical form.
    But the same Church law also provides for the following extraordinary situation (1917 Code, canon 1098; 1983 Code, canon 1116): “If a person competent to assist according to the norm of law cannot be present or approached without grave inconvenience.” If this situation is likely to last at least one month, then the Church declares valid a marriage celebrated before only the witnesses. If a non-delegated priest can be present, he must be called upon to receive the vows. This legislation is a simple application of the fundamental principles of Canon law: The supreme law is the salvation of souls, and The sacraments are for men who are well-disposed.



    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
    « Reply #23 on: December 08, 2022, 10:17:51 AM »
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  • In reality, this "canonical commission" isn't doing anything that sedevacantist, Resistance, or independent priests don't do on a regular basis.

    Consider this example:

    A new parishioner (at SSPX, Resistance, sedevacantist, or independent chapel) comes to the priest and says, "Father, I received an annulment from my former Novus Ordo parish, but I would like to now marry Mrs. X.  Am I free to do so?"
    .

    Sedevacantist priests would tell such a person that the annulment they received is meaningless. If the original marriage were invalid due to lack of form, such as the person being baptized in the Church and having been married in the First Pentecostal Church, the marriage would be automatically invalid and most sedevacantist priests would recognize that. Or if the first marriage had taken place with someone previous married validly to someone else.

    But I'm not aware of any sedevacantist priests that would, in practice, consider a marriage invalid on other grounds, such as due to lack of intention to contract marriage, lack of maturity, intention not to have children, or anything similar.

    People with those sorts of cases would be told they cannot contract another marriage because any doubt as to the validity of their first marriage must be resolved in favor of the marriage being valid, and therefore they are not free to marry.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
    « Reply #24 on: December 08, 2022, 10:29:26 AM »
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  • Hi Sean,

    First of all, I'm not a priest, so please do not call me Father. Just a long-time SSPX chapel mass-goer and observing things in Traddieland.

    Second, the state of necessity does not follow that one goes about rejecting the "ordinary" way of doing things, when canonical delegation is given as requested, but only when it is not given without good reason.

    This doesn't logically follow, because you completely ignore the fact that SSPX marriages from 1976-2017 are done usually in these steps:

    1. Couple or together with the SSPX priest makes a request to the local diocese for marrying. During those years, the ordinary delegation is rarely given, except in the rare case of a diocesan bishop friendly to Tradition.
    2. If the delegation is not given within a reasonable period of time or rejected without good reason, the SSPX still proceeds with the marriage invoking supplied jurisdiction. The marriage details are sent to the local diocese or parish of the couple. Whether or not the diocese accepts or enters the marriage details into their records is a separate matter.

    Finally, neither the Society nor Rome has ever declared that marriages done before 2017 without the proper delegation were invalid. The claim that all its prior marriages were invalid is preposterous. See https://sspx.org/en/content/29002

    Hello Trento-

    I think your rendition of the process (1976-2017) is erroneous:

    1) It is true that sacramental records were sent -ex post facto- to the diocesan authorities, but requests for delegation?

    No.

    In my case, because my wife's father was upset about the lack of jurisdiction for SSPX priests to witness the marriage, Fr. Beck asked us if we would like him to request Fr. Echert (i.e., local diocesan biritual indult priest) to come to witness the marriage.

    We declined, and that was the end of that.

    No delegation or priest with faculties to witness marriages was ever requested, even though he would consented.

    Moreover, see the attached SSPX Marriage Form M-2(a), which pre-empted the need to request a delegation (i.e., because of the moral impossibility of requesting delegation from a modernist priest).

    In other words, implicit in this process (and the attached form) is the belief that grave inconvenience and necessity persist whether or not the delegation is requested and/or given.


    2) Your claim that Rome does not recognize SSPX marriages prior to 2017 as invalid is preposterous: Annulments are given automatically for all such marriages for defect of canonical form, and this was the (disingenuously) stated reason for accepting to be bound by Muller's 2017 guidelines. 
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
    « Reply #25 on: December 08, 2022, 10:56:09 AM »
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  • A general sidenote:

    Shortly after the 7 SSPX Deans read their letter from the pulpits of their parishes, Fr. Bouchacourt (SSPX French District Superior) excoriated these priests as "subversives" and of "holding the faithful hostage."

    One of the Deans (my former professor of Ascetical and Mystical Theology), Fr. Theirry Gaudray, responded with a subsequent sermon regarding Fr. Bouchacourt's denunciation, and reminded him, the SSPX authorities, and the faithful that:

    "All have the duty to defend marital union in its nature, its end and its properties. Moreover, the baptized who confess the sacramental character of Christian marriage must protect the profession of faith which is implied by all matrimonial consent. The future spouses who will be the ministers of this sacrament (a priest does not “marry”) have no right to celebrate it in an equivocal manner. The priests have the duty to remind them and help them to protect themselves from the hustle and bustle of the modernist clergy."
    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/french-deans-hold-their-ground-and-advance!/

    But celebrating the sacrament in an equivocal manner is precisely what they would be doing -against the implicit profession of faith of which Fr. Gaudray speaks- in seeking the delegation from a modernist authority (and this perspective is perfectly consistent with SSPX Marriage Form M-2(a) provided as an attachment in the previous post).

    And this is also the essence of the disagreement between Trento and I (and the SSPX and Resistance):

    Trento sees no "grave inconvenience" involved in requesting the delegation from the modernist authorities; he sees no necessity in remaining independent of their authority and influence; whereas we see things from the opposite perspective (alongside Archbishop Lefebvre, who exorted this independence for so long as these authorities remain enemies of the faith, and warning us that all these concessions were nothing more than a maneuver).

    In this particular maneuver, Fr. Gaudray nails it: Under the pretext of a concession, the real purpose is to deprive the SSPX of the extraordinary form of marriage (at least for those who fall for it, like Trento and most SSPX priests), and thereby bring the SSPX even further under modernist authority.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline trento

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    Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
    « Reply #26 on: December 08, 2022, 11:13:35 AM »
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  • Hello Trento-

    I think your rendition of the process (1976-2017) is erroneous:

    1) It is true that sacramental records were sent -ex post facto- to the diocesan authorities, but requests for delegation?

    No.

    In my case, because my wife's father was upset about the lack of jurisdiction for SSPX priests to witness the marriage, Fr. Beck asked us if we would like him to request Fr. Echert (i.e., local diocesan biritual indult priest) to come to witness the marriage.

    We declined, and that was the end of that.

    No delegation or priest with faculties to witness marriages was ever requested, even though he would consented.

    Moreover, see the attached SSPX Marriage Form M-2(a), which pre-empted the need to request a delegation (i.e., because of the moral impossibility of requesting delegation from a modernist priest).

    In other words, implicit in this process (and the attached form) is the belief that grave inconvenience and necessity persist whether or not the delegation is requested and/or given.


    2) Your claim that Rome does not recognize SSPX marriages prior to 2017 as invalid is preposterous: Annulments are given automatically for all such marriages for defect of canonical form, and this was the (disingenuously) stated reason for accepting to be bound by Muller's 2017 guidelines. 

    1) The form that you attached mentions in the very first paragraphs that the couple declares to have the "serious difficulty" of going through the ordinary means of getting married with delegation to a Novus Ordo parish priest, that is why supplied jurisdiction is invoked. It's a different scenario from the French story you posted. 

    2) I read Cardinal Muller's 2017 letter and there is no mention of such automatic annulments for all SSPX marriages prior to 2017. I stand to be corrected if you would kindly point me to the right references.

    Do read https://fsspx.news/en/content/30476 for the several scenarios that Cardinal Muller's letter envisaged. Note well "The future spouses do not have a “right” to have their consent received by a priest who happens to be their friend, whereas they do have a definitive right to be married in the traditional liturgy and with fully Catholic theological and moral instruction."

    Offline trento

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    Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
    « Reply #27 on: December 08, 2022, 11:23:05 AM »
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  • Trento sees no "grave inconvenience" involved in requesting the delegation from the modernist authorities; he sees no necessity in remaining independent of their authority and influence; whereas we see things from the opposite perspective (alongside Archbishop Lefebvre, who exorted this independence for so long as these authorities remain enemies of the faith, and warning us that all these concessions were nothing more than a maneuver).

    In this particular maneuver, Fr. Gaudray nails it: Under the pretext of a concession, the real purpose is to deprive the SSPX of the extraordinary form of marriage (at least for those who fall for it, like Trento and most SSPX priests), and thereby bring the SSPX even further under modernist authority.

    Yes, it seems the main difference between the SSPX and the Resistance are that the Resistance sees ANYTHING coming from Rome as Modernist and to be rejected outright, while the SSPX makes the distinction of what is Modernist and what is traditionally acceptable without harm to the Faith.

    With regards to the topic of ordinary jurisdiction for marriage, as you acknowledged even in your own marriage case, the SSPX priest then wouldn't have had a problem consenting to accept the delegation IF GIVEN, because BY ITSELF ordinary delegation that is given poses no harm to the Faith if the couple is given proper Catholic instructions for marriage and not refused the Traditional Matrimony Rites by a fully Traditional Catholic priest.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
    « Reply #28 on: December 08, 2022, 11:37:20 AM »
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  • 1) The form that you attached mentions in the very first paragraphs that the couple declares to have the "serious difficulty" of going through the ordinary means of getting married with delegation to a Novus Ordo parish priest, that is why supplied jurisdiction is invoked. It's a different scenario from the French story you posted.

    2) I read Cardinal Muller's 2017 letter and there is no mention of such automatic annulments for all SSPX marriages prior to 2017. I stand to be corrected if you would kindly point me to the right references.

    Do read https://fsspx.news/en/content/30476 for the several scenarios that Cardinal Muller's letter envisaged. Note well "The future spouses do not have a “right” to have their consent received by a priest who happens to be their friend, whereas they do have a definitive right to be married in the traditional liturgy and with fully Catholic theological and moral instruction."

    1) The "serious difficulty" has no relation to the inability to obtain delegation or a priest with faculties to witness the marriage, but rather, the moral impossibility of approaching any such priest and/or placing ourselve under his authority;

    2) Not sure what you are referring to here.  The Vatican considers all 1976-2017 SSPX marriages invalid.

    3) Not sure what this article refers to, as nobody is discussing the right to be married by a friend-priest.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline trento

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    Re: Marriage Validity: What the SSPX Used to Teach
    « Reply #29 on: December 08, 2022, 11:40:34 AM »
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  • 1) The "serious difficulty" has no relation to the inability to obtain delegation or a priest with faculties to witness the marriage, but rather, the moral impossibility of approaching any such priest and/or placing ourselve under his authority;

    2) Not sure what you are referring to here.  The Vatican considers all 1976-2017 SSPX marriages invalid.

    3) Not sure what this article refers to, as nobody is discussing the right to be married by a friend-priest.

    2) Can you provide some references?

    3) You need the read the whole article and not just the short sentences I quoted.