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Author Topic: Marriage, divorce, and human nature  (Read 1336 times)

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Offline Yeti

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Re: Marriage, divorce, and human nature
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2024, 02:18:39 PM »
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  • Here is the quote about how intention to use contraception figures in to the validity of marriage. He gives various cases, but concludes that a marriage made in such a way is still presumed to be valid.


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Marriage, divorce, and human nature
    « Reply #16 on: April 09, 2024, 02:31:11 PM »
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  • I went over all this with epiphany a year or two ago. Long story short: Catholic teaching is that ignorance that marriage lasts until death does not invalidate a marriage, nor does infidelity either before or after marriage, nor does saying later that one "simulated consent", or that a person withheld information about themselves. Saying those things invalidate marriage is against Catholic teaching.

    As far as the issue of contraception, that is a bit more complex, and I'd have to dig to find in what circuмstances that could make marriage invalid, but the Novus Ordo open-ended idea that "intending to use contraception" renders the marriage invalid is completely false.

    Elwin, if you worked in one of these so-called tribunals and cooperated with handing out "annulments" on these fake grounds, you should probably discuss this with your priest, as this is very serious matter. :(

    I have a very hard time understanding how error about the nature of marriage (exclusive and indissoluble) does not ipso facto invalidate a marriage, or at the very least a sacramental one (as opposed to a natural marriage between a baptized spouse and an unbaptized one, or two unbaptized spouses).  To confect a sacrament validly requires the intent to do what the Church does (facere quod facit ecclesia), and the Church does not intend to confect a sacrament that can be dissolved by any earthly power.

    I know there is back-and-forth on whether a sacrament is confected when two Protestants marry.  The modern concept is that they do have a valid sacramental marriage, and if this was seen differently in the past, I would be interested to know the particulars of that.  And as to the Orthodox, well, they would come back and say "we don't speak of sacraments as being valid or invalid" (or something like that).  They've always got an answer.


    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Marriage, divorce, and human nature
    « Reply #17 on: April 09, 2024, 02:42:05 PM »
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  • It is my understanding that holding off having kids until a predetermined milestone or date, does not make the marriage invalid. Because, technically, you are open to having children. However, not to be open for kids would definitely make it invalid.
    What I write about is the deliberate intention not to have children, not even being open to children, and to manifest this intention through artficial contraception.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Marriage, divorce, and human nature
    « Reply #18 on: April 09, 2024, 02:48:26 PM »
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  • Here is the quote about how intention to use contraception figures in to the validity of marriage. He gives various cases, but concludes that a marriage made in such a way is still presumed to be valid.
    Yeti, you have failed to demonstrate proper Catholic understanding regarding the nature and validity or invalidity of Catholic matrimony. Whilst some of what you have written is correct, you also present claims that are wrong and dangerous.

    Everyone here should disregard what you have ssaid, currently and past, on the matter. Until you have gone through formal canonical training for at least 3 years, remain quiet.

    And as I wrote, I stopped doing formal cases over 15 years ago. You are a presumptuous and judgmental knave.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Marriage, divorce, and human nature
    « Reply #19 on: April 09, 2024, 02:51:04 PM »
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  • I have a very hard time understanding how error about the nature of marriage (exclusive and indissoluble) does not ipso facto invalidate a marriage, or at the very least a sacramental one (as opposed to a natural marriage between a baptized spouse and an unbaptized one, or two unbaptized spouses).  To confect a sacrament validly requires the intent to do what the Church does (facere quod facit ecclesia), and the Church does not intend to confect a sacrament that can be dissolved by any earthly power.

    I know there is back-and-forth on whether a sacrament is confected when two Protestants marry.  The modern concept is that they do have a valid sacramental marriage, and if this was seen differently in the past, I would be interested to know the particulars of that.  And as to the Orthodox, well, they would come back and say "we don't speak of sacraments as being valid or invalid" (or something like that).  They've always got an answer.
    .

    Here's what this Dominican theologian wrote before Vatican 2:

    Quote
    An error or mistake of law concerns the nature or essential object and properties of the matrimonial contract, as in the case of ignorance. Thus, a simple error regarding the unity or the indissolubility or the sacramental dignity of marriage, even though the motivating reason for entering into the contract, does not invalidate the matrimonial consent. A simple error is one which remains in the intellect without a positive act following in conformity with it. Thus, as the essence of matrimony has inseparably attached to it is essential properties, in consenting to marriage as it is in itself, consent is thereby also given to its properties of unity and indissolubility. To know a thing with all its properties and to will a thing differ; one can simply will a thing as it is in itself and not know very well its properties or be mistaken about them. Thus an error about the essential qualities of marriage does not necessarily invalidate it. The general intention to contract marriage as instituted by God prevails over the error. Although many consider marriage to be dissoluble and not sacramental, e.g. protestants, Jєωs, infidels, yet they normally will to contract marriage as it is. They probably would positively exclude these properties if they were later questioned about them, but they did not actually exclude them at the time the consent was given.



    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Marriage, divorce, and human nature
    « Reply #20 on: April 09, 2024, 02:53:19 PM »
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  • Yeti, you have failed to demonstrate proper Catholic understanding regarding the nature and validity or invalidity of Catholic matrimony. Whilst some of what you have written is correct, you also present claims that are wrong and dangerous.

    Everyone here should disregard what you have ssaid, currently and past, on the matter. Until you have gone through formal canonical training for at least 3 years, remain quiet.

    And as I wrote, I stopped doing formal cases over 15 years ago. You are a presumptuous and judgmental knave.
    .

    I am quoting from a Dominican theologian named Fr. Nicholas Halligan who wrote this in 1962, and explains the true teaching of the Church. I have not seen you quote any pre-Vatican 2 theologians on this subject.

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Marriage, divorce, and human nature
    « Reply #21 on: April 09, 2024, 03:16:03 PM »
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  • I am quoting from a Dominican theologian named Fr. Nicholas Halligan who wrote this in 1962, and explains the true teaching of the Church. I have not seen you quote any pre-Vatican 2 theologians on this subject.
    Theologians are not canonists, and canonists are not theologians. They are VERY different fields.

    My academic background is Church history but with additional studies in sacramental theology (my doctorate is in liturgy) and canon law. I do not feign to be a canon lawyer (JCL or JCD), but I have multi-year learning in canon law, western and some eastern.

    Instead of quoting this or that person whose views are not necessarily pertinent, where are your credentials?
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Marriage, divorce, and human nature
    « Reply #22 on: April 09, 2024, 04:49:38 PM »
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  • Theologians are not canonists, and canonists are not theologians. They are VERY different fields.
    .

    Fr. Halligan was a theologian before Vatican 2, and was approved by his religious superiors to write a work on theology. This is the work I was quoting. He certainly knows better than you do whether he is competent to speak on this subject, and the Church authorities who approved him to publish this work knew this as well. If he were incompetent or didn't know what he was talking about, he would not have been allowed to write this book.

    Quote
    My academic background is Church history but with additional studies in sacramental theology (my doctorate is in liturgy) and canon law. I do not feign to be a canon lawyer (JCL or JCD), but I have multi-year learning in canon law, western and some eastern.

    Instead of quoting this or that person whose views are not necessarily pertinent, where are your credentials?

    I don't care what your credentials are. Can you please cite a pre-Vatican 2 source from an approved theologian that makes the point you're trying to make? That is how one finds the answers to questions like this. You have still not cited any authority for anything you are saying.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Marriage, divorce, and human nature
    « Reply #23 on: April 09, 2024, 05:04:05 PM »
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  • But you made no distinction between what he calls simple (purely intellectual) error and an intention of the will.

    Let's say I want to get a certain kind of dog.  You buy the dog and then find out that it sheds.  I didn't know this breed of dog shed.  You generally know about "dogs", though not about all the properties of dogs.  This did not undermine or in any way "inform" your intention / will to get a dog, even if "had you known" you may not have gotten said dog.  At the time, your ignorance was in your intellect only and had no effect on your intention to get a dog.

    This seems to be the kind of ignorance he's talking about, a purely intellectual ignorance that did not factor positively into your decision to get married at the time.

    Now, let's say that you intended to get a dog that does not shed, and your choice of a dog was informed at least in part by your intention to get a non-shedding dog.  Then you get the dog, only to find out that it does in fact shed.  Here ignorance (or lack of knowledge) was involved in the original act of the will.

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Marriage, divorce, and human nature
    « Reply #24 on: April 09, 2024, 07:24:35 PM »
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  • I don't care what your credentials are. Can you please cite a pre-Vatican 2 source from an approved theologian that makes the point you're trying to make? That is how one finds the answers to questions like this. You have still not cited any authority for anything you are saying.
    Then you are clearly an imbecile and have no idea about what you speak.

    I am done with you. Go away, you hairy ape.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila