Author Topic: Marriage Debt Owed Toward God? (Read 2769 times)

Geremia · « **on:** April 21, 2014, 05:24:03 PM »

Is it possible for a husband and wife within child-bearing years who have no desire for marriage relations to still, nevertheless, owe the marriage debt to God? God's first commandment, after all, was to be fruitful and multiply.

Miseremini · « **Reply #1 on:** April 21, 2014, 06:01:34 PM »

In the Old Testament people and animals were told to be fruitful and multiply to populate the earth. In the New Testament which Christians follow there are examples of celebecy which are praised. Christ was celebate (but not married)

To answer your question, there is nothing wrong with being celebate in a marriage
[/b]PROVIDiNG BOTH PARTIES AGREE
A few saints were married and both parties remained celebate.

BUT if one party at any point dissagrees the other partner must give in to their wishes.

Matthew · « **Reply #2 on:** April 21, 2014, 06:04:11 PM »

Quote from: Geremia

Is it possible for a husband and wife within child-bearing years who have no desire for marriage relations to still, nevertheless, owe the marriage debt to God? God's first commandment, after all, was to be fruitful and multiply.

St. Paul lays down conditions for abstaining: A) for a time B) by mutual consent C) unto spiritual growth (for a spiritual reason) and D) the "fast" can be called off at any time by either party.

What if both parties lose all interest? That's sure an interesting one. With the modern world (pollution, poor nutrition, dead water supply, etc.) I suppose anything is possible.

Usually it's very rare that a man would "lose interest" while still in his youth -- assuming he hasn't been in some kind of accident.

So we'd have to assume A) it's really HIS idea, not his wife's B) it's not really for economic reasons, etc.

But if, after undertaking said abstinence, he fell into the smallest sin of the flesh, it would prove the reality of A) or B).

Sigismund · « **Reply #3 on:** April 21, 2014, 09:27:22 PM »

As usual, wise advice from Matthew on marriage.

soulguard · « **Reply #4 on:** April 22, 2014, 12:34:44 PM »

I have a question:

If your marriage partner is motivated by lust and demands, do you have to sleep with him/her?

Should they not be denied to build some discipline in them and conquer their lust?
Surely to consent under this circuмstance would drag down the other into their sins?

Matthew · « **Reply #5 on:** April 22, 2014, 12:41:26 PM »

Quote from: soulguard

If your marriage partner is motivated by lust and demands, do you have to sleep with him/her?

Should they not be denied to build some discipline in them and conquer their lust?
Surely to consent under this circuмstance would drag down the other into their sins?

Yes, you do.

It's not up to you to "discipline them" like you would a child. You can discuss it with them, you can suggest -- but it's up to them.

The marriage debt is the marriage debt. Vowing (on one's wedding day) to give your spouse exclusive rights over your body is...just what it sounds like.

That is what's involved with Catholic marriage, by the way.

The marriage debt is a grave obligation, binding under pain of mortal sin.

No matter how many TV shows and modern-day pagans live and believe otherwise, joke about "she's gonna cut you off if you buy that boat...", "if you don't buy her a birthday gift you'll be sleeping on the couch", etc., it doesn't change the truth or the reality.

I gather that priests have to worry about this a lot in the confessional. It's one of those reasons why priests are often grateful for their vocation, after listening to X number of confessions :)

soulguard · « **Reply #6 on:** April 22, 2014, 03:43:00 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: soulguard

If your marriage partner is motivated by lust and demands, do you have to sleep with him/her?

Should they not be denied to build some discipline in them and conquer their lust?
Surely to consent under this circuмstance would drag down the other into their sins?

Yes, you do.

It's not up to you to "discipline them" like you would a child. You can discuss it with them, you can suggest -- but it's up to them.

The marriage debt is the marriage debt. Vowing (on one's wedding day) to give your spouse exclusive rights over your body is...just what it sounds like.

That is what's involved with Catholic marriage, by the way.

The marriage debt is a grave obligation, binding under pain of mortal sin.

No matter how many TV shows and modern-day pagans live and believe otherwise, joke about "she's gonna cut you off if you buy that boat...", "if you don't buy her a birthday gift you'll be sleeping on the couch", etc., it doesn't change the truth or the reality.

I gather that priests have to worry about this a lot in the confessional. It's one of those reasons why priests are often grateful for their vocation, after listening to X number of confessions :)

Yet permit me, esteemed Matthew, to ask one more question:

What if the marriage partner is not a Catholic, and is even formally against the faith?
What if, say, his wife is Catholic, and he drawn to her because of physical attraction?

Does physical attraction or intoxication provide a doorway for the unbelieving partner to come into the faith? In your honest opinion...

Matthew · « **Reply #7 on:** April 22, 2014, 03:59:02 PM »

Quote from: soulguard

What if the marriage partner is not a Catholic, and is even formally against the faith?
What if, say, his wife is Catholic, and he drawn to her because of physical attraction?

Does physical attraction or intoxication provide a doorway for the unbelieving partner to come into the faith? In your honest opinion...

I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at here... but here goes.

It sometimes happens that a couple will contract a mixed marriage (imprudent, by the way) and at some point the unbelieving spouse will convert, thanks to the tireless example of the believing spouse.

On the other hand, they don't always convert. It's a risky gamble.

There are threads on CI about this. One person had to "live as brother and sister" because his unbelieving wife insists on using birth control.

As I've said before... the Faith *saves us* from a lot of trouble. You don't want to get married while you're still young/stupid (forgive this expression) so you can choose from a wider "pool" of women, and then "get serious" and take up the Faith later. Sure, you might think you'll get to have your fun and save your soul too -- but it might come back to bite you when your spouse doesn't switch gears so gracefully.

Converting to the [Traditional] Catholic Faith as early as possible is the only way to go. Whatever sacrifice(s) are required are well worth it.

Tiffany · « **Reply #8 on:** April 22, 2014, 07:35:57 PM »

Quote from: soulguard

I have a question:

If your marriage partner is motivated by lust and demands, do you have to sleep with him/her?

Should they not be denied to build some discipline in them and conquer their lust?
Surely to consent under this circuмstance would drag down the other into their sins?

Hebrews 13:4
Marriage honourable in all, and the bed undefiled. For fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

Dolores · « **Reply #9 on:** April 23, 2014, 11:41:12 AM »

Quote from: Geremia

Is it possible for a husband and wife within child-bearing years who have no desire for marriage relations to still, nevertheless, owe the marriage debt to God? God's first commandment, after all, was to be fruitful and multiply.

The marriage debt is only owed to one's spouse. Married couples must not use contraception, and indeed, the primary reason for marriage is the bearing and raising of children, but there is no affirmative duty to have children. If there was, sterility would be an impediment to marriage, but it is not.

Miseremini · « **Reply #10 on:** April 23, 2014, 07:56:14 PM »

Quote from: Dolores

but there is no affirmative duty to have children. If there was, sterility would be an impediment to marriage, but it is not.

It is in the SSPX. Recently a widow and a widower were refused the sacrament because they were too old to have children.

Dolores · « **Reply #11 on:** April 25, 2014, 07:58:44 AM »

Quote from: Miseremini

Quote from: Dolores
but there is no affirmative duty to have children. If there was, sterility would be an impediment to marriage, but it is not.

It is in the SSPX. Recently a widow and a widower were refused the sacrament because they were too old to have children.

If this is true, it is a travesty, and wholly un-Catholic.