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Author Topic: Male Immodesty Tempts Feminine Women?  (Read 11629 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Male Immodesty Tempts Feminine Women?
« Reply #45 on: March 16, 2018, 09:01:37 AM »
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  • Monks logging trees?
    You need a picture for that?
    How do you think all those wood monasteries were built and all their cells?

    You can wear at least a light shirt even when logging ... without compromising safety.  In fact, I would want to wear something more protective than even a shirt.  Now, when I was at seminary in SSPX, many were zealous about always wearing cassocks.  I myself wore a cassock when up on a steep roof replacing corroded metal rooting panels.  In restrospect, that was very stupid.  But sometimes when you're young and idealistic and zealous ... you can violate prudence.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Male Immodesty Tempts Feminine Women?
    « Reply #46 on: March 16, 2018, 09:03:57 AM »
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  • Ok, if Ladislaus and Croix de Fer could "take it outside" that would be great.

    I tried to clean up the thread a bit. It's a very important thread on a very important topic. It doesn't need sidetracks and bickering.

    Just saw this.  Sorry about the latest post.  I made it before seeing this.  I wouldn't directly violate your requests here on your forum.  I'll avoid directly going after Croix.  Perhaps we could take it outside (literally).  Some forums have a specific forum called "Take It Outside" where people could be banned from the rest of the forum except that room for a while (like a suspension).


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Male Immodesty Tempts Feminine Women?
    « Reply #47 on: March 16, 2018, 09:07:49 AM »
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  • I will here appeal to my "Hero Member" status on the forum, ranking 3rd all time in total CI posts behind only you and Neil.  Not sure what that says about me though.

    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: Male Immodesty Tempts Feminine Women?
    « Reply #48 on: March 16, 2018, 09:24:43 AM »
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  • You're deeply polluted with the spirit of the world.  You would undoubtedly consider most of the male saints, and Our Lord Himself, to be "beta" males on account of their meekness.

    True meekness (the Hebraic meaning) is to have strength, but to only use that strength for a just and righteous cause (effecting the Lord's Kingship on Earth), not to use it arbitrarily, hastily, imprudently or for the pleasure of pushing people around.

    A person who is inherently weak is not meek. There is no virtue in not having a trait that can be abused for one's self-interest, pleasure or whatever reason. Virtue resides in the person who has the ability do wrong, but, instead, he uses that ability to do right according to God's will for him.

    Jesus Christ and the saints were alphas and sigmas. They weren't betas which the modernist, false theology depicts them as a psyop to get the faithful to be passive cowards and tolerant of iniquity.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Male Immodesty Tempts Feminine Women?
    « Reply #49 on: March 16, 2018, 09:35:22 AM »
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  • We were doing the family rosary this morning and as I was opening a prayer book, I saw a holy card that has a painting of Our Lord, the Blessed Mother, and the Souls in Purgatory. Our Lord and all the men are bare chested with thighs exposed, and all the women are fully covered. Like all other paintings like this one, the men’s bodies are in perfect athletic bodybuilder (before steroids) physical condition. In the real world, men rarely have bodies like those in the paintings. The equivalent in perfection of a female body for men would that the painting would be of naked Playboy centerfolds. In other words, those paintings of men would be the apex of unrealistic temptation to women, the same as air brushed Playboy centerfolds are to men. So, I serious doubt that women are tempted to lust by seeing shirtless men, for if that was so, then the Church has been tempting women for 2000 years. Just imagine the inverse, if the Church commissioned all its paintings of women to be of bare chested and exposed thighs Playboy centerfolds.

    (I know there might be a painting of Eve that one can present or a woman with her cleavage exposed, but I think they were rare, likely during the Renaissance, but I am talking about practically EVERY painting with men.)  


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Male Immodesty Tempts Feminine Women?
    « Reply #50 on: March 16, 2018, 11:20:43 AM »
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  • We were doing the family rosary this morning and as I was opening a prayer book, I saw a holy card that has a painting of Our Lord, the Blessed Mother, and the Souls in Purgatory. Our Lord and all the men are bare chested with thighs exposed, and all the women are fully covered. Like all other paintings like this one, the men’s bodies are in perfect athletic bodybuilder (before steroids) physical condition. In the real world, men rarely have bodies like those in the paintings. The equivalent in perfection of a female body for men would that the painting would be of naked Playboy centerfolds. In other words, those paintings of men would be the apex of unrealistic temptation to women, the same as air brushed Playboy centerfolds are to men. So, I serious doubt that women are tempted to lust by seeing shirtless men, for if that was so, then the Church has been tempting women for 2000 years. Just imagine the inverse, if the Church commissioned all its paintings of women to be of bare chested and exposed thighs Playboy centerfolds.

    (I know there might be a painting of Eve that one can present or a woman with her cleavage exposed, but I think they were rare, likely during the Renaissance, but I am talking about practically EVERY painting with men.)  

    Well, there's more to covering up than not to be a temptation.  Modesty is more than just that.  So, for instance, you might have a man or woman who is seriously overweight or otherwise extremely unattractive.  If they were to expose themselves, they would not only NOT be a temptation, but it might actually have the OPPOSITE effect, to turn people off to allures of the flesh.  So are unsightly women exempt from the rules of modesty?  Of course not.  Just because they do not cause temptation in men, they can run around half naked?  Similarly for a man.  Just because he might not pose a temptation to any woman, then it's OK for him to run around shirtless?  It bothers me when I see men walking around in public without their shirts on ... and not because I'm the least bit "tempted" by them.  Why then?  Because for anyone, whether a temptation or not, to run around partially undressed creates and ATMOSPHERE and a CULTURE of immodesty in general.  Even my younger children, when they see a man walking around in public without his shirt on, find it shocking and ask, "Why is he naked?"

    There's something there about how we comport ourselves as temples of the Holy Spirit ... as St. Paul taught, with dignity and decorum.  Similarly with men.  So, even IF I know that I will not cause temptation to anyone, I would be embarrassed to walk around without a shirt on [and not because I'm unsightly or anything, since I work out and have a good physique].  Even among [straight] men, I would be very reluctant to take my shirt off.  When I was a kid, even before the notion of being attracted to women presented itself to my mind, I was embarrassed to be "skins" when we played shirts-and-skins.  When I was at High School and we had to shower with other boys in an open shower at the gym, that embarrassed me.  When I was a very young boy, maybe 4 or 5, for some reason my Mom took a picture of me when I was taking a bath, and I immediately placed my hands over my private parts.  So, even apart from the problem of causing someone else a temptation, there's a natural instinct we have towards modesty.

    When we cover up, we are presenting ourselves as human beings, as people with souls created in the image and likeness of God, with higher faculties, intellect and will.  When we run around half naked, we are presenting ourselves (and relating to other people) as mere bodies and flesh.  But we are temples of the Holy Spirit, and being properly attired helps to present itself that way to others.  And the same thing goes for dressing like slobs.  Most people run around in public dressed like slobs even when they're not being immodest.  People used to dress with much more dignity and decorum in earlier societies that were more civilized.  Then women might wear tons of makeup and lots of jewelry.  Even if done in such a way as not to actually cause a temptation, they still present themselves as extremely focused on themselves as mere flesh, as animals, rather than as souls created in the image and likeness of God.  Or when certain cultures of men wear tons of "bling".

    More and more these days, you'll see men running around in public without their shirts on.  And the other question, then, is WHY they are doing it.  At the gym, there are some guys who wear next to nothing on their upper bodies, and are well built ... and I often notice them in front of the mirror flexing and checking themselves out.  Many of these run around like that because they're trying to get attention from women.  [Croix, is that you?]  Even if the women aren't tempted per se, they're hoping to get a look, to have some woman "check" them out.  So a lot of the motivation behind guys taking their shirts off is impure in the sense of their wanting to be noticed for their physique ... so an impure vanity.  Not to mention that vanity in a man is even uglier than in a woman, because there's something more natural (albeit in a Fallen Nature type of way) for a woman to want to be attractive than for a man.  Frankly, these guys strike me as borderline gαy ... so obsessed are they with vanity.  So, because men don't pose as strong a temptation to women as the other way around, it's OK for a man strutting his half-naked stuff around trying to get women to look at him and check him out?  Even if he doesn't actually provoke a sin right there on the spot, he's getting the INTEREST of women, who might become more and more interested in the physical attractiveness of men.  So even while not directly sin, it may be creating habits and inclinations and patterns of thinking that might ULTIMATELY lead to sin.  Not to mention the bad example they are setting, and even potentially resentment from women.  From time to time one reads of women who expose themselves in public in order to protest the double standard.  Hey, if men can walk around without their shirts, why can't we?  That's sexist, they claim.

    Would I want my teenage daughter mixing with a group of boys without their shirts on?  Certainly not.  Even if it doesn't cause her to commit an immediate sin, it can still cause an at-least-vague sense of attraction and physical interest in the opposite sex ... that probably would not lead anywhere good in the end.

    As for art, very few men are tempted by PAINTINGS of nude women, far fewer, at any rate, than would be tempted by the sight of an actual nude woman.  Similarly, if a woman were to see a very well built man without a shirt, that would undoubtedly be more of a temptation than a painting.

    So, in short, to view modesty merely with regard to its potential to cause an immediate sinful reaction is WAY too narrow a perspective on the subject.  St. Paul doesn't write about it that way at all.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Male Immodesty Tempts Feminine Women?
    « Reply #51 on: March 16, 2018, 11:48:43 AM »
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  • Well, there's more to covering up than not to be a temptation....  
    Of course, but this thread is precisely about temptation, "Does Male Immodesty tempt women in the same way as female immodesty tempts men?" That is exactly what it is about.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Male Immodesty Tempts Feminine Women?
    « Reply #52 on: March 16, 2018, 01:01:26 PM »
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  • Of course, but this thread is precisely about temptation, "Does Male Immodesty tempt women in the same way as female immodesty tempts men?" That is exactly what it is about.

    It had broadened into a general discussion about whether it's OK in general for men to dress immodestly.


    Offline 1st Mansion Tenant

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    Re: Male Immodesty Tempts Feminine Women?
    « Reply #53 on: March 16, 2018, 02:11:09 PM »
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  • Where I grew up guys wandering around in public without shirts were considered low-class. Even in the hot summer sun a t-shirt isn't a real burden. I have a neighbor who sometimes does yard-work without his shirt. He's middle-aged and pudgy and hairy-- not a temptation, believe me. If you are young and fit, cover up to avoid giving temptation to wandering eyes of either sex; and if your're older or not-so-fit, cover it up so we're not embarrassed for you! Just cover it up, for Pete's sake.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Male Immodesty Tempts Feminine Women?
    « Reply #54 on: March 16, 2018, 03:22:18 PM »
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  • Where I grew up guys wandering around in public without shirts were considered low-class.  
    Exactly. 

    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: Male Immodesty Tempts Feminine Women?
    « Reply #55 on: March 16, 2018, 06:53:28 PM »
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  • So, I serious doubt that women are tempted to lust by seeing shirtless men, for if that was so, then the Church has been tempting women for 2000 years. Just imagine the inverse, if the Church commissioned all its paintings of women to be of bare chested and exposed thighs Playboy centerfolds.

    (I know there might be a painting of Eve that one can present or a woman with her cleavage exposed, but I think they were rare, likely during the Renaissance, but I am talking about practically EVERY painting with men.)  

    Not only are women tempted to lust by seeing shirtless men, they're tempted by seeing fully clothed men. Trust me, brah. In real life, I've had women vocalize their lust to me even when I was wearing shirts.

    When I was in the Air Force during my Novus Ordo days, I went to a Mormon service during Basic Training, and I kid you not, I was sharing a hymn book with a girl (another Basic Trainee recruit) whom I had just met for the first time, and while we were sitting there holding the hymn book together, she rubbed my leg with her hand.

    A chick winked at me during Mass back in college.

    I also dated a girl in a sorority in college. It's the only sorority, Alpha Chi Omega, that allows male visitors inside their house. Look it up if you don't believe me. I heard lustful talk among the chicks there that truly rivals male "locker room talk".

    Women are not these virtuous "delicate flowers" that many people on this forum and in real life posit them to be...


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Male Immodesty Tempts Feminine Women?
    « Reply #56 on: March 16, 2018, 10:08:23 PM »
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  • ...I went to a Mormon service during Basic Training, and I kid you not, I was sharing a hymn book with a girl (another Basic Trainee recruit) whom I had just met for the first time, and while we were sitting there holding the hymn book together, she rubbed my leg with her hand.

    I also dated a girl in a sorority in college. It's the only sorority, Alpha Chi Omega, that allows male visitors inside their house. Look it up if you don't believe me. I heard lustful talk among the chicks there that truly rivals male "locker room talk".

    Women are not these virtuous "delicate flowers" that many people on this forum and in real life posit them to be...
    At least not your Alpha Chi Omega and Mormon "chicks". I am so pleased you have upped your standard. Keep improving... Never look back... http://alphachiuga.org/
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline poche

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    Re: Male Immodesty Tempts Feminine Women?
    « Reply #57 on: March 16, 2018, 11:03:09 PM »
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  • Modesty s a virtue we should all try to acquire. 

    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: Male Immodesty Tempts Feminine Women?
    « Reply #58 on: March 17, 2018, 02:56:00 AM »
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  • At least not your Alpha Chi Omega and Mormon "chicks". I am so pleased you have upped your standard. Keep improving... Never look back... http://alphachiuga.org/

    You left out the Catholic chick who exaggeratedly winked at me at Mass (essentially, the look on her entire face intended her non-verbal communication to be unambiguous). In fact, it happened right after I received Holy Communion and I was walking back to the pew. That shows you the lack of reverence and Jezebel spirit of these chicks.




    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Male Immodesty Tempts Feminine Women?
    « Reply #59 on: March 17, 2018, 08:19:17 AM »
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  • Women are not these virtuous "delicate flowers" that many people on this forum and in real life posit them to be...
    This is a strawman.