Quote from: MrsZ

Graham, I wonder if you might tell us where to find the full article /post by Bishop Williamson that you quoted?

I'm not sure if this is it, but it is an interesting article by Bishop Williamson on the topic of women.women

The dilemma is inescapable: she cannot do what is properly men's thinking or work without cutting across her deepest nature. Did this lawyeress check her hair-do just before coming into court? If she did, she is one distracted lawyer. If she did not, she is one distorted woman.

Now to attract a man so as to marry and become a mother, to nurture and rear children and to retain their father, she needs superior gifts of feeling and instinct, e.g. sensitivity, delicacy, tact, perspicacity, tenderness, etc. by which her mind will correspondingly be swayed, which is why no husband can understand how the mind of his wife works! For to do the work of generation, i.e. to ensure nothing less than the survival and continuation of mankind, God designed her mind to run on a complementary and different basis from her man's. His mind is designed not to be swayed by feelings but on the contrary to control them, so that while his feelings may be inferior to hers, his reason is superior. And reason being meant to rule in rational beings, then he is natured to rule over her (Gen. III, 16), as can be seen for example whenever she needs to resort to him for her feelings not to get out of control.

Penitent Woman, you are not to be faulted for promoting a submissive attitude for wives, but that also extends to all females knowing their place.  Where you have gone wrong is taking it upon yourself to research a topic and post an article about it, an endeavor that is best left to the men who are more knowledgeable and qualified to do so.

You are educated and realize the importance of quoting sources and support, but I would suggest that you let the men on this forum provide those references for our edification.  They can cite authentic, credible sources from the proper religious tradition and have demonstrated that they are capable of doing so.  While there is disagreement among them on some threads, they are more skilled in argument and debate.  I don’t pretend or aspire to argue so well as they do; it’s my place to benefit from their posts.

Your intentions were good but your seemingly innocuous post is troubling for more than a few reasons.  This is a great example of why such pursuits are better off left to men.  As women, we must defer to their more superior intellectual faculties.  Our domestic duties and accomplishments do not include elocution and rhetoric.

St. Paul does not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man.  She must be silent, he says.

 Where does the Church teach that men have superior intellectual faculties?

Jaynek, thank your comments.  
There is a difference between deferring to a man in order to stay in our place as a woman and submitting to him as an authority over ourselves (as our husband, for example).  We are not called to obey all men the same as we are our husbands, if that is what you are suggesting I said.

Just because I hypothetically could do something better than a man, such as debate an issue or build a swing set from scratch with power tools, does not mean it is my place to do so.  Just because I could pass an entrance examination to be admitted to an engineering school or do something better than he does competitively does not mean I should do it.  If I could argue better than some men, why would I want to or be in a position to do so?

As far as being smarter than I, that would depend on how you define “smart.”  I don’t evaluate people that way unless it comes right down to an appeal to their better judgment.  The virtues that we strive to cultivate as Catholics is what I value in people and look for.  Simply stated, I look for the good in people, and if I have to reject someone as dangerous and/or corrupt, it’s not because the person is too dumb (or not “smart”) but usually because feminist thinking has made them undesirable in some way.  It’s best to surround oneself with those who share the same traditional Catholic faith.  If we can’t, then we have to be on the alert.  I admit this is stretching the point you wanted to make, but it’s a good place to say that men (and women) with whom I come into contact are not in competition with me over who is right and wrong, smarter or dumber, etc.  Generally speaking, we have a reason for interacting with people in situations outside the home, most of which don’t call for deciding who is smarter.

On this forum, it has been suggested by some feminists that age of all things should discourage a woman from marrying an otherwise perfectly suitable, traditional Catholic man.  Isn’t morality and living a life as godly men and women in our respective spheres enough for people?

As far as church teaching, I am not qualified to present that support.  I was raised to behave like a female and to emulate the Blessed Mother.  I don’t doubt for a minute that She would defer that sort of request to someone better qualified.  And yes, I know that Her religious tradition was not Catholic, I’m just using that as an example.  I will only say that men were deemed more suitable by Jesus Christ and the early founders of the Church to be the ones teaching.

And yes, I know that it is said in the Bible (and additionally in some questionable sources) that women were part of this, but I reject the current modern tendency to add a feminist slant to early Christianity.  Someone on this thread has already brought up “deaconesses” in reference to St. Paul.  That says to me, female priests are going to be another feminist deviance justified by that poster.  Why mention it otherwise?

These are difficult attitudes and behaviors to struggle with, but  challenging feminism from both men and women is crucial because it is so detrimental to society but more importantly to our souls.  I pray the rosary every day to help me remember my place as a woman and I include everyone collectively on this forum in my prayers for God’s graces even though some of them make my blood boil with their posts.  Thanks to some of them, I was made aware that wearing a rosary is a gang symbol.  Others have posted links in the library for reading about saints, including St. John of the Cross.  I’m sorry that I even have an opportunity to challenge feminist attitudes on this forum but they are all over it.

Thank you for your interest in my comments, Jaynek, and God bless you. I don’t have the book learning of church teaching but I know that those who do (who have raised me) have not been in error in teaching me to look to the Blessed Mother as my role model. I view feminism as an attack on Her and hold no tolerance for it, as my previous posts have made clear.  Even so, on a traditional Catholic forum I have more “critics” than “likers” because I point out these affronts to Her.  I don’t see anyone else who is held in such low repute as that.  Unless they’ve been banned, that is.  Battling feminism in this society wears me out but I’ll keep on praying for strength.

[1] Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ. [2] Now I praise you, brethren, that in all things you are mindful of me: and keep my ordinances as I have delivered them to you. [3] But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. [4] Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered, disgraceth his head. [5] But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered, disgraceth her head: for it is all one as if she were shaven.

[6] For if a woman be not covered, let her be shorn. But if it be a shame to a woman to be shorn or made bald, let her cover her head. [7] The man indeed ought not to cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of the man. [8] For the man is not of the woman, but the woman of the man. [9] For the man was not created for the woman, but the woman for the man. [10] Therefore ought the woman to have a power over her head, because of the angels.

Flannery was making claims about how to understand traditional roles of men and women as applied to participation in an online forum.  These claims did not make much sense to me so I was wondering if she were basing her ideas on the roles of husband and wife.

Tele, I am interested in how you would apply traditional roles of men and women to determining ideal posting behaviour.  Could you share your ideas, please?

Quote from: Jaynek

Flannery was making claims about how to understand traditional roles of men and women as applied to participation in an online forum.  These claims did not make much sense to me so I was wondering if she were basing her ideas on the roles of husband and wife.

Was it customary for women to join and speak in deliberative assemblies, in juries, and the like, in the past?

Quote

Tele, I am interested in how you would apply traditional roles of men and women to determining ideal posting behaviour.  Could you share your ideas, please?

Women on forums typically know they will get special treatment.  The idea that there is typically "equality" on forums is nonsense.  Rather, women can use vicious invective against men they disagree with, and if a man responds in kind he will be accused of being unchivalrous.

I won't say women shouldn't post on forums.  They should show be respectful though.  Something which is typically not the case.  On the contrary they often resort to hysterical accusations when a sensitive issue is brought up, particularly those dealing with feminism.

I do not think that these are a good analogy for what we are doing on a forum.  We are not involved in making decisions that will be binding on others.  Participating in an online forum is not a position of authority.  These examples you give are such positions and so we expect women to be excluded.

I agree your observations.  I have often seen women be vicious and disrespectful towards men and men's self-defence labeled as unchivalrous.  I think that it is generally important for women to be respectful of men, but especially so in a culture so heavily influenced by feminism.

Do you have any specific suggestions on how women can show respect?  Perhaps some examples would be helpful.