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Author Topic: Male - Female Misunderstandings  (Read 15146 times)

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Offline catherineofsiena

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Male - Female Misunderstandings
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2012, 05:03:42 PM »
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  • In St. Catherine's book, The Dialogue, God the Father spoke to her while in ecstasy about the light of the Holy Spirit being the true guide that many "learned" men ignore:

    "Every light that comes from Holy Scripture has come and still comes from that light (the Holy Spirit). This is why the foolish, proud, and learned people go blind even though it is light, because their pride and the cloud of selfish love have covered and blotted out this light. So they read Scripture literally rather than with understanding. They taste only its letter in their chasing after a multiplicity of books, never tasting the marrow of Scripture because they have let go of the light by which Scripture was formed and proclaimed.

    …For one cannot share what one does not have in oneself, and because these persons’ life is darksome, they often share the light of Holy Scripture in darkness.  You will find the opposite in my servants, for they share the light within them in hunger and longing for others’ salvation."
    For it is written: I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be dispersed. Matthew 26:31


    Offline PenitentWoman

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    Male - Female Misunderstandings
    « Reply #31 on: July 26, 2012, 05:19:59 PM »
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  • I have been thinking about this a lot today.  For some reason the word dangerous really stood out to me. I think because my biggest fear is that my status as unwed mother is looked at, by its nature as scandalous, within the traditional church.  I don’t want to be a danger to anyone.  Unless I received really poor advice, the traditional counsel I received did not indicate that as an unwed mother I was dangerous, or that everything I say or do has to be automatically dismissed because I am an unwed mother.  I am indeed of this status, but I am trying so hard to reform.  Conversion is very, very hard.  Most women in my position never even try to examine these things and change. I feel like I have to examine them, because I believe that is what God has been calling me to do.

    I was looking at an older post on this board recently where some women were recommending and discussing the book “Fascinating Womanhood.”  This book is by a Mormon author.  I guess I wrongfully assumed then that it was okay to post things about the role of the wife from other denominations, for discussion.  I asked for “thoughts” on her approach, I was not trying to preach it.  I quickly made note of the birth control part.   I did not realize the sentiments as a whole, were harmful.  

    Flannery, please understand that I did not realize the St. Paul command for women to be silent included matters like this, where an idea is posted for discussion.  I have read a lot of similar things from women I just didn’t realize what I did was so different. I apologize again.

    If you are referring to my comment about men gently correctly women, this was just something I realized after a personal conversation I had.  There are a lot of young men who, in discernment of marriage, will encounter overly emotional women.  Because I recently had an experience that taught me how valuable a certain way of guiding a woman can be, I thought sharing the vague outline could be beneficial.   I did not realize that a woman’s reflection on a successful male/female conversation was never needed at all. I figured that if the perspective was in line with the rules of obedience and submission, it might be helpful.  Some traditional men clearly know how to diffuse a woman’s over-emotionalism without ever “feeding into it” or dismissing it.  I thought some might be interested in that.  It was never intended to replace a man’s wisdom at all.  

    It was absolutely never my intent to speak with any sort of authority.  If I was the type of woman who acted and believed that way, I would have applied for a work promotion that would make my financial problems a lot less burdensome. I have purposely avoided going after this position because it would place me in direct supervision and authority over male employees. I am not comfortable for this, even though I’ve been told I am qualified.  I am putting my belief in the order of how things should be, above my own financial security.  I am trying to live a certain way, despite no day to day examples of this.  

    I know many married women, and not any of whom believe in or practice submission. This is all I see.  With my own parents, my mother ruled the roost.  She showed no affection to my father which pushed him to adultery again and again.  I don’t want such a disordered marriage, so I am trying to learn, and make sure I have got my understanding of these things correct. I truly meant no harm, and I will respect if anything needs to be deleted.  

    Elizabeth,catherine, and Malleus, thank you for your kind words.  
    ~For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen, is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for? But if we hope for that which we see not, we wait for it with patience. ~ Romans 8:24-25


    Offline PenitentWoman

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    « Reply #32 on: July 26, 2012, 05:54:52 PM »
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    Penitent Woman, you are not to be faulted for promoting a submissive attitude for wives, but that also extends to all females knowing their place. Where you have gone wrong is taking it upon yourself to research a topic and post an article about it, an endeavor that is best left to the men who are more knowledgeable and qualified to do so.


    Flannery, please help clarify. I was told that it is permissible (and encouraged) that I should do research and converse with others. As I understood , it is acceptable for Catholic women to present ideas and ask for feedback, and it also okay to share something that has been learned. Do you believe this is incorrect? It is your belief that women are not to post about things they've researched?  It is an honest question and definitely one I will discuss with a traditional priest.


    CatherineofSienna, I enjoyed reading the quotes you've posted. I am saddened that my request for feedback was not viewed as in the spirit of moving towards Christ.
    ~For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen, is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for? But if we hope for that which we see not, we wait for it with patience. ~ Romans 8:24-25

    Offline Sede Catholic

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    Male - Female Misunderstandings
    « Reply #33 on: July 26, 2012, 05:57:31 PM »
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  • Dear Penitent Woman,

    Yes, it is definitely wrong to quote or use protestant writings for spiritual guidance.

    We should completely stay away from anything protestant.

    It is sinful to read protestant religious books.

    Francis is an Antipope. Pray that God will grant us a good Pope and save the Church.
    I abjure and retract my schismatic support of the evil CMRI.Thuc condemned the Thuc nonbishops
    "Now, therefore, we declare, say, determine and pronounce that for every human creature it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman Pontiff"-Pope Boniface VIII.
    If you think Francis is Pope,do you treat him like an Antipope?
    Pastor Aeternus, and the Council of Trent Sessions XXIII and XXIV

    Offline PenitentWoman

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    « Reply #34 on: July 26, 2012, 06:11:11 PM »
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  • Sede Catholic, thank you for the direct answer.  I thought that because it was recommended on this board,that I could read the Fascinating Womanhood book. I will not.

    There are few Catholic books/articles dedicated to this subject, but numerous ones from other denominations. I thought that was interesting. The Catholic marriage books that do exist tend to minimize male headship.
    ~For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen, is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for? But if we hope for that which we see not, we wait for it with patience. ~ Romans 8:24-25


    Offline Sede Catholic

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    « Reply #35 on: July 26, 2012, 06:47:07 PM »
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  • Dear Penitent Woman,

    It is a pleasure.

    And I am very glad that you will not read that protestant book.

    That is a good decision.
    Francis is an Antipope. Pray that God will grant us a good Pope and save the Church.
    I abjure and retract my schismatic support of the evil CMRI.Thuc condemned the Thuc nonbishops
    "Now, therefore, we declare, say, determine and pronounce that for every human creature it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman Pontiff"-Pope Boniface VIII.
    If you think Francis is Pope,do you treat him like an Antipope?
    Pastor Aeternus, and the Council of Trent Sessions XXIII and XXIV

    Offline Sede Catholic

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    « Reply #36 on: July 26, 2012, 06:50:48 PM »
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  • In St. Catherine's book, The Dialogue, we are informed that God said:

    Quote
    Every light that comes from Holy Scripture has come and still comes from that light (the Holy Spirit). This is why the foolish, proud, and learned people go blind even though it is light, because their pride and the cloud of selfish love have covered and blotted out this light. So they read Scripture literally rather than with understanding. They taste only its letter in their chasing after a multiplicity of books, never tasting the marrow of Scripture because they have let go of the light by which Scripture was formed and proclaimed.

    …For one cannot share what one does not have in oneself, and because these persons’ life is darksome, they often share the light of Holy Scripture in darkness.  You will find the opposite in my servants, for they share the light within them in hunger and longing for others’ salvation.



    This is a very important quote.
    Francis is an Antipope. Pray that God will grant us a good Pope and save the Church.
    I abjure and retract my schismatic support of the evil CMRI.Thuc condemned the Thuc nonbishops
    "Now, therefore, we declare, say, determine and pronounce that for every human creature it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman Pontiff"-Pope Boniface VIII.
    If you think Francis is Pope,do you treat him like an Antipope?
    Pastor Aeternus, and the Council of Trent Sessions XXIII and XXIV

    Offline catherineofsiena

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    Male - Female Misunderstandings
    « Reply #37 on: July 26, 2012, 06:51:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: PenitentWoman
    Sede Catholic, thank you for the direct answer.  I thought that because it was recommended on this board,that I could read the Fascinating Womanhood book. I will not.

    There are few Catholic books/articles dedicated to this subject, but numerous ones from other denominations. I thought that was interesting. The Catholic marriage books that do exist tend to minimize male headship.


    PW, I think you are still working out your understanding of the role of women within marriage and within society.  St. Paul did not command women to be silent outside of Church; it was during the liturgy because the priesthood is reserved for men.  In other Scripture quotes he clearly sends greetings to women acting as deaconesses and spreading the Gospel.   I strongly urge you take these questions to a traditional priest and not take the advice of those online with erroneous understandings of women and submission.  As far as your job promotion, again ask a priest because I think applying this concept may be a mistake.  The world isn't the Church and many men in the world are not of God and should not be a source for submission and guidance.  Use your discernment to find the wise men and associate with them.

    This book is a well regarded classic on womanhood (note- I haven't read it myself).  I'm not recommending Ignatius Press as a whole because it's a Novus site, but Dr. Von Hildebrand's book is sold here at a good rate.  Sometimes you can find what you want at these sites if you can't find them at Trad outlets.

    http://www.ignatius.com/Products/PBW-P/the-privilege-of-being-a-woman.aspx

    I agree, as a general rule stay away from Protestant and especially Mormon works.  When I converted to tradition I was amazed at the wealth of material in our past that is hidden.  You just have to ask around and look.  Catholicism has the answers you seek.  I would also recommend you visit different traditional priests to get a feel for the different groups.
    For it is written: I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be dispersed. Matthew 26:31


    Offline catherineofsiena

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    « Reply #38 on: July 26, 2012, 07:00:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: Sede Catholic
    In St. Catherine's book, The Dialogue, we are informed that God said:

    Quote
    Every light that comes from Holy Scripture has come and still comes from that light (the Holy Spirit). This is why the foolish, proud, and learned people go blind even though it is light, because their pride and the cloud of selfish love have covered and blotted out this light. So they read Scripture literally rather than with understanding. They taste only its letter in their chasing after a multiplicity of books, never tasting the marrow of Scripture because they have let go of the light by which Scripture was formed and proclaimed.

    …For one cannot share what one does not have in oneself, and because these persons’ life is darksome, they often share the light of Holy Scripture in darkness.  You will find the opposite in my servants, for they share the light within them in hunger and longing for others’ salvation.



    This is a very important quote.


    Thank you Sede.  It reminds me of a quote from one of the saints, I think it was St. Teresa of Avila or St. John of the Cross that said (paraphrasing) "He who has himself for a spiritual director has a fool for a spiritual director."  

    It's a warning for all of us and why we need solid priest advisors to guard against going off the rails due to our human nature.
    For it is written: I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be dispersed. Matthew 26:31

    Offline catherineofsiena

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    « Reply #39 on: July 26, 2012, 07:31:49 PM »
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  • PW.

    booksforcatholics.com is the Roman Catholic Books site.  They publish reprints of old texts.  I have a booklet from them on marriage prep that I like called "What Every Bride and Groom Should Know."  It's worthy of a purchase, imo.

    Angelus Press has Pope Pius XI's Casti Connubii  

    http://angeluspress.org/Books/Encyclicals/ENCCasti-Connubii

    For it is written: I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be dispersed. Matthew 26:31

    Offline catherineofsiena

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    « Reply #40 on: July 26, 2012, 09:50:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: PenitentWoman
    Sede Catholic, thank you for the direct answer.  I thought that because it was recommended on this board,that I could read the Fascinating Womanhood book. I will not.

    There are few Catholic books/articles dedicated to this subject, but numerous ones from other denominations. I thought that was interesting. The Catholic marriage books that do exist tend to minimize male headship.


    Are you working on a basic Catholic library?  I mentioned this on an older thread.  Start with the basics and work from there.  You are re-catechising yourself.

    Bible - get a Douay Rheims.  The Haydock edition is pricey but I like it for the verse explanations below the text.  The DR is the most accurate translation of the Latin Vulgate.  Set aside the NAB or RSV or whatever they issued you in the N.O.  Same for the N.O. catechism.  Those are for research and comparison only.

    Missal - Fr. Lasance is good.  I am also looking to purchase a St. Andrew's missal.  SSPX and FSSP printed their own missals.  I do not know if both made modifications so I can't recommend them.  Maybe someone can weigh in who purchased the missals.

    Catechism - Baltimore Catechism #3, My Catholic Faith or anything pre VII.  The situational explanations or a Church discipline will be dated but the doctrinal teachings themselves are timeless.

    Church History - My priest recommended a book by Fr. John Laux.  You can't go wrong with any of his books or anything by my favorite, Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange.

    The Three Conversions in the Spiritual Life by Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange.  This is a short version of his larger work The Three Ages of the Interior Life which I love love love.  These books give you a roadmap of the Christian journey.

    Are you saying a Daily Rosary?  If nothing else this is essential.  Several years back I was inspired by a story on the SSPX website.  Fr. Peter Scott was counseling a young couple and instead of chastising them he told them to say the Rosary daily.  By the next visit they had already corrected their irregular situation.  I had different problems but I started a daily Rosary and *boom* I got the answers I needed quickly and clearly.  In hindsight I am still amazed.  Many priests and saints have stated it is impossible to go astray if you are faithful to a daily Rosary.  You will either quit praying or stay true to the Faith.

    Biographies of the Saints.  You may want to check out famous sinners who became saints like St. Mary Magdalene and St. Mary of Egypt.  Also saints who were mothers like St. Monica, St. Rita and Bl. Anna Maria Taigi.

    My two cents, fwiw.  I'm sure others have good suggestions.

    Oh, and the chapels probably have libraries to loan you books or maybe extras to give out if you can't afford them.

    Angelus Press is the publishing house for the SSPX.

    Baronius Press is the publishing house for the FSSP.

    I have never purchased from CMRI so I can't give an opinion there.

    TAN/St.Benedict's Press offers both Novus and traditional items.  Ignatius Press is Novus.  Books for Catholics is indult Trad.  There are other family operated sites here and there for traditional items.  Veils by Lily is nice for veils.

    For it is written: I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be dispersed. Matthew 26:31


    Offline catherineofsiena

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    « Reply #41 on: July 27, 2012, 01:13:19 AM »
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  • I should add one more book to the basics list.  The Imitation of Christ by Thomas A Kempis.

    http://www.baroniuspress.com/book.php?wid=56&bid=21
    For it is written: I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be dispersed. Matthew 26:31

    Offline catherineofsiena

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    « Reply #42 on: July 27, 2012, 01:22:46 AM »
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  • Butler's Lives of the Saints online (and free!)

    http://www.bartleby.com/210/

    http://www.bartleby.com/210/index2.html
    For it is written: I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be dispersed. Matthew 26:31

    Offline PenitentWoman

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    « Reply #43 on: July 27, 2012, 06:55:02 AM »
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  • Wow, you're very resourceful.  :)  Thank you.

    Yes, I do pray a daily rosary and have been doing this for over a year now. I have an interesting history with the rosary and I do believe it is protective.

    As far as whether or not it will be helpful in correcting my situation and finding a husband? I'm not so sure. I did receive a marriage proposal  with an onion ring last night, but I'm fairly certain that isn't a sign from God, lol.

    Thank you.

    I'm still really confused and feeling bad, but it is what it is,I guess.
    ~For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen, is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for? But if we hope for that which we see not, we wait for it with patience. ~ Romans 8:24-25

    Offline PenitentWoman

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    « Reply #44 on: July 27, 2012, 07:21:28 AM »
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  • Quote from: catherineofsiena

    PW, I think you are still working out your understanding of the role of women within marriage and within society.  St. Paul did not command women to be silent outside of Church; it was during the liturgy because the priesthood is reserved for men.  In other Scripture quotes he clearly sends greetings to women acting as deaconesses and spreading the Gospel.   I strongly urge you take these questions to a traditional priest and not take the advice of those online with erroneous understandings of women and submission.


    This is where I do become very confused.  Maybe my ideas about women/wives are more of a protestant understanding and not Catholic.  I know what the bible commands, but it also seems that by the things you've posted (and by reading about other saints) that the Catholic understanding of patriarchy is different.  I guess I just need to figure out how so. I did not grow up associating Catholicism with female submission. I did not witness this anywhere in my NO upbringing.

    I know I need to take this to a priest, but it is really hard to get all the answers I need about everything.  I like getting input from other people, and I just have to accept my feelings my get hurt because of it.  I need to manage that "heart full of emotions" that was mentioned, but I just need so much guidance.  :(



    Quote from: catherineofsiena
    As far as your job promotion, again ask a priest because I think applying this concept may be a mistake.  The world isn't the Church and many men in the world are not of God and should not be a source for submission and guidance.  Use your discernment to find the wise men and associate with them.


    I will seek counsel in this, but I can't help but be really curious about the opinions of others on this, or what (if anything) that been written on this subject.  

    Part of the reason is that I simply don't feel comfortable with it on a personal level.  I did an internship once and I was told that I needed to develop better skills in being assertive (and was criticized for overly feminine demeanor) or I would never survive in business.  Strangely though, I think that some of the success I've had at my job is because I am not assertive towards men, at all. I don't pretend to be in competition with them, so I think I am less threatening or bothersome to them. I also do well with the male clients because I try to be extra respectful. I think it makes them feel good.  Our highly feminist receptionist is horrible about this and thinks something as simple as using the word "sir" towards men is degrading myself.  

    Not being able to "read" males properly is what landed me a single mother, so yes, it is extremely important to me, and I think about it a lot.  I don't want to keep messing up in my life.
    ~For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen, is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for? But if we hope for that which we see not, we wait for it with patience. ~ Romans 8:24-25