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Author Topic: Living will directives for Traditional Catholics?  (Read 4267 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Living will directives for Traditional Catholics?
« on: February 26, 2015, 06:59:21 PM »
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  • A older friend of mine is taking care of those morbid but necessary arrangements for the end of one's life -- cemetery plot, funeral insurance, etc.

    As part of this, the issue of "living wills" has come up.

    He asked me if the SSPX had put out anything on this topic, but I must admit I don't know. I haven't given the topic much thought, to be honest.

    What should a Traditional Catholic have in his living will?

    Any resources would be much appreciated.
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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Living will directives for Traditional Catholics?
    « Reply #1 on: February 26, 2015, 07:37:09 PM »
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  • Yes , Father Kevin Robinson gave us excellent information.  I'll see if I have a copy of the SSPX chapel bulletin that has the info.
    If you contact him, I'm sure he'll be happy to give you info and examples.

    May God bless you and keep you


    Offline Marlelar

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    Living will directives for Traditional Catholics?
    « Reply #2 on: February 26, 2015, 09:11:00 PM »
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  • Perhaps this will help:

    living will

    I was told by an SSPX priest that we are under no obligation to use "extraordinary" measures to sustain life when it will not effect the outcome.  So hydration and nutrition would be the only things obligatory.

    However there are situations when a medical power of attorney would be more appropriate.

    Marsha


    Offline Marlelar

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    Living will directives for Traditional Catholics?
    « Reply #3 on: February 26, 2015, 09:13:26 PM »
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  • Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey
    Yes , Father Kevin Robinson gave us excellent information.  I'll see if I have a copy of the SSPX chapel bulletin that has the info.
    If you contact him, I'm sure he'll be happy to give you info and examples.


    Fr. Robinson is at the Phoenix chapel.

    Marsha

    Offline Matto

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    Living will directives for Traditional Catholics?
    « Reply #4 on: February 26, 2015, 09:20:31 PM »
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  • I think I remember something Father Robinson told me when he was still my priest. I think I remember him telling us not to donate our organs because if we allow it the doctors will kill us prematurely to use our organs. But it was a while ago so I do not remember clearly.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.


    Offline Marlelar

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    Living will directives for Traditional Catholics?
    « Reply #5 on: February 26, 2015, 09:30:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    I think I remember something Father Robinson told me when he was still my priest. I think I remember him telling us not to donate our organs because if we allow it the doctors will kill us prematurely to use our organs. But it was a while ago so I do not remember clearly.


    I have been warned about that also.

    no such thing as brain death

    At least there is ONE thing the NO gets right :dancing:

    Marsha

    Offline Marie Teresa

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    Living will directives for Traditional Catholics?
    « Reply #6 on: February 26, 2015, 09:38:44 PM »
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  • One I've heard recommended by Traditional Catholic priests is this:

    Protective Medical Decisions Docuмent

    Quote
    The PMDD is a protective Durable Power of Attorney for Health Care which is available from the Patients Rights Council. It is a docuмent in which you name someone you trust (a family member or a close friend) to make health care decisions for you if you are ever permanently or temporarily unable to make such decisions for yourself.


    It should be needless to say that you would want to choose a medical decision-maker who shares your Catholic values on these issues.  I would recommend that the decision maker consult a good Traditional priest when and if an issue should arise.  A priest who is conversant with these issues, that is.  

    There is a lot of information at the website that offers this.  It is basically an anti-euthansia group.  From what I understand, you do not want a "Living Will", because it's almost like a code for "just let me die."  (or maybe, hasten my death)  If a hospital asks, "Do you/does the patient have a Living Will?", you reply, "No.  He has a Durable Power of Attorney for Health Care - i.e. a decision maker."  

    Offline Marie Teresa

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    Living will directives for Traditional Catholics?
    « Reply #7 on: February 26, 2015, 10:54:07 PM »
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  • From a Catholic prayer book:

    Instructions and Devotions for the Sick, Dying and Deceased  (p. 46):  

    If you have not already made your will, as in prudence you ought, let this also be done in the beginning of your illness, so that having settled your temporal affairs, you may apply your soul without disturbance to the spiritual.


    Better to do it before you are "ill".  If you die suddenly and without warning, you will not get the chance.









    [Though they say the word "will", these days that includes not only your will, but Power of Attorney (legal/financial), Durable Power of Attorney for Health Care (rather than the so-called "living will"), and Guardianship for minor children.  The last one being particularly vital, as good Catholic parents should not leave it to the courts to decide who will raise their children in the event of their untimely death.]


    Offline Marie Teresa

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    Living will directives for Traditional Catholics?
    « Reply #8 on: February 26, 2015, 11:05:40 PM »
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  • Quote
    Who should have a PMDD?

    It’s a good idea for every person who is 18 years old or older to have a PMDD. Many people assume that such a docuмent is only necessary for the elderly or for the seriously ill, but people of any age or health condition could be in an accident after which they could be temporarily or permanently unable to make their own health care decisions.

    How does the PMDD differ from a “Living Will”?

    The PMDD is a Durable Power of Attorney for Health Care. A Living Will is a docuмent, often called a “declaration” or a “directive,” in which the signer gives power and authority to an “attending physician” to withhold or withdraw medical interventions under certain circuмstances. Because the “attending physician” may be a total stranger who is completely unfamiliar with the signer’s values and wishes, terms in the docuмent may be interpreted by the physician in a manner that was not intended by the signer. Also, with the Living Will, family members and others — who are familiar with the signer’s values and wishes — have no legal standing to interpret the meaning of the directive.



    I mentioned "Durable Power of Attorney for Health Care" on my previous post, but I noticed that website differentiates between that and the PMDD. So I guess I should have said PMDD (rather than the so-called "living will").

    Offline Nadir

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    Living will directives for Traditional Catholics?
    « Reply #9 on: February 26, 2015, 11:28:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    I think I remember something Father Robinson told me when he was still my priest. I think I remember him telling us not to donate our organs because if we allow it the doctors will kill us prematurely to use our organs. But it was a while ago so I do not remember clearly.


    Father is pretty much on the ball about these things. He would have warned, not so much against organ donation per se, which can be moral if one makes a free decision to donate an  organ, or part thereof, which is not an unpaired organ (eg the heart) to help a person in need. He would have warned against carte-blanche signing of a virtual death warrant in the case you happen to be in a car accident or whatever which cause so-called irreparable brain damage or what is euphemistically called "brain-death".

    If you do a search you will find previous threads. Look for "brain death" and organ donation"
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    Offline mcollier

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    Re: Living will directives for Traditional Catholics?
    « Reply #11 on: June 16, 2018, 09:55:23 AM »
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  • I am pick-up this thread since it is so important.
     
    I had started another thread where I had attached a template for a Combined Living Will and Healthcare Durable Power of Attorney put out by the Archdiocese of Phiadelphia (or an affiliated group).
     
    Needless to say, this template would need to be revised for use by traditional Catholics.
     
    I was re-directed to this thread by Marie Teresa and given some good feedback/suggestions by Nadir.
     
    I am re-attaching the doc where I highlighted the most obviously problematic language for Catholics seeking to maintain the traditional Faith.
     
    Here are the suggested edits I came up with so far (for you to comment or offer further revisions):
     
    • The citations referencing Post-Conciliar Docuмents would be changed to reference any and all Pre-Vat II docuмents on the subject (please let me know if you know what the relevant citations should be changed to).
    • The language that requests a Catholic priest should be changed to state “[…] a Catholic priest validly ordained in the traditional Latin rite of ordination by a bishop likewise validly consecrated in the traditional Latin rite preferably from the [contact info for the specific apostolate] be contacted to attend to my spiritual needs so I may receive the Last Rites of the Roman Catholic Church in the traditional Latin rite, specifically the Sacraments of Penance, Extreme Unction, Viaticuм, and supported by prayer.”
    • Finally, as Nadir pointed out in the previous thread, there appears to be too much influence/discretion granted to the “attending physician”. While some argue that there is an advantage to combine a Living Will with a Healthcare Durable Power of Attorney: http://help.legalnature.com/41847-articles/living-will-vs-medical-power-of-attorney the link from the Patients Rights Council makes a strong case that the attending physician is given too much power and authority: http://www.patientsrightscouncil.org/site/advance-directive-protective-medical-decisions-docuмent/ therefore it might just be better stick with a Healthcare Durable Power of Attorney and do away with all of the language related to the Living Will. (That said, I am no lawyer, so I do not know—I just know that with the way “healthcare” is trending, putting too much trust or power in the hands of the so called medical professionals could be a big mistake).
     
    Finally, God willing if we pray for a good death, God will grant us a good priest at our death, but should other language be included to allow for other Rites or other priests to minister the Sacraments in extreme cases?
     
    Thank you! God bless

    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: Living will directives for Traditional Catholics?
    « Reply #12 on: June 16, 2018, 11:15:46 AM »
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  • I think I remember something Father Robinson told me when he was still my priest. I think I remember him telling us not to donate our organs because if we allow it the doctors will kill us prematurely to use our organs.

    Exactly. Also, be sure to use a black permanent marker to liberally fill in the areas on the back of your driver's license that ask if you want to be an organ donor, because Dr. Sneakystein can easily forge it to make it appear you're an organ donor.
    Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war. ~ Psalms 143:1 (Douay-Rheims)

    Offline Marie Teresa

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    Re: Living will directives for Traditional Catholics?
    « Reply #13 on: June 16, 2018, 11:48:09 AM »
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  • Quote
    Quote
    This LIVING WILL shall take effect 
    .
    (1) when my attending physician determines 
    .
    (2)that I am incompetent which means that I lack sufficient capacity to understand the potential material benefits, risks and alternatives involved in a specific proposed health care decision; 
    I am unable to make the health care decision on my behalf; or I am unable to communicate a decision about my health care.

    .
    For the LIVING WILL to be effective, my attending physician must also verify that:
    .
    1. I have an end-stage medical condition, that is, I have an incurable and irreversible medical condition
    in an advanced state which will result in death despite the introduction or continuation of medical treatment;or
    .
    2. I am (3)permanently unconscious, which is a total and irreversible loss of consciousness and capacity for interaction with the environment.
    I very uncomfortable with this:

    (1) How can we be sure that the "attending physician" is a fit person to decide on our behalf? 

    (2) Will he know us well enough and better than the person appointed and sitting at the bedside observing the patient for a much longer time?

    (3) What determines permanently unconscious? It's like the term "brain dead"? (Which is a fraud used to steal organs from living persons". How often do patients diagnosed as permanently unconscious come to consciousness.

    Good examples of problems by Nadir.  
    From what I understand & have been told by good Traditional Catholic sources, you just shouldn't sign anything called a "Living Will."  When you're on the operating table or gurney, the doctor is not going to pull out your Living Will & read it; if you say "yes I have a living will", it comes with a sort of assumption about your wishes.  What I've been told is you just have a "medical power of attorney", or "medical decision maker".  That way, if you are unable to make your own decisions, they must consult your medical PofA (a living person), rather than read some docuмent (or not) subject to their misinterpretation.  


    Quote
    It’s not the same as another type of advance directive known as a “living will.” (The living will — sometimes called a “directive” or a “declaration” — is downright dangerous. It actually gives power over your life and death to an unknown physician.)

    So forget about getting the best wording for a "Living Will".  You don't want to have a LW at all.  You just need a medical decision maker (probably with a backup in case said person is not available).  The one I've heard recommended by Traditional Catholic priests is the PMDD, on the website I mentioned before.  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Living will directives for Traditional Catholics?
    « Reply #14 on: June 16, 2018, 02:08:26 PM »
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  • Organ transplants are definitely not permitted for Catholics.  They often take out the heart and other organs when you are still alive, thereby killing you, based on their phony definition of "brain death".