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Author Topic: Little girl bored, wants to go back to NO  (Read 2520 times)

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Offline ascanio1

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Little girl bored, wants to go back to NO
« on: November 26, 2019, 12:28:49 PM »
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    • Any advice from parents who went through these same problem?

    My little girl went to Mass with me ever since she was born. Initially in her pram and now she sits with me.

    She's 4 and a few months old and until a month ago we attended a NO Mass that she loved not she attends Missa Cantata every Sunday.

    During the NO Mass, for children up to 10 y.o., they would all sit on a carpet, in a semi-circle, at the front while parents would sit behind. Cartoons on a TV screen would represent the epistles and Gospel (I do not know who created these caroons but they were pertinent to the readings) and during the Creed and the Our father the priest would speak it slowly and explain every single word (taking longer than the sermon itself), there were nice songs, etc. and all children loved it. She loved going to Mass and looked forward to it all week to say hello to her friend baby Jesus.

    Now she sulks at the back, alone, and hates it. She cries before getting in the car and screems  before entering the door. Half the Mass she is in tears until she has no more to shed and sist silently. A torture.

    Any advice? I have a few ideas but before saying my two pence, I would like to hear other parents.
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    Tommaso
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    Re: Little girl bored, wants to go back to NO
    « Reply #1 on: November 26, 2019, 12:46:58 PM »
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    • Teach her the mysteries of the Mass so that she may begin to appreciate them.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Little girl bored, wants to go back to NO
    « Reply #2 on: November 26, 2019, 01:41:41 PM »
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    • This is a tough one.  Of course, long run, she'd get bored of the NO also.  That was the big selling point of the NOM, but if you ever see the youth at a NOM, they look bored out of their minds, and it shows in their facial expressions and body language.

    There is psychology at play with children, where positive reinforcement helps.  So, for instance, after Mass every Sunday, take them out for a treat, a really nice treat.  They will gradually come to associate the pleasantness of the treat with being at Mass, and therefore start to associate those pleasant thoughts with the Mass.

    Kids at that age don't profoundly grasp things, so you have to resort to little psychological tricks like that.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Little girl bored, wants to go back to NO
    « Reply #3 on: November 26, 2019, 01:51:39 PM »
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    • Your situation seems similar to trying to make a child who has been living on candy start eating healthy food.  No matter how much better the change really is, it seems terrible to the child. Here are some ideas that might appeal to a child that age: 

    At four years old, she does not have a Sunday obligation. Perhaps she could spend some Sundays not going to any Mass.  Sunday could be a quiet boring day at home for a while.  Then start going to Mass followed by some sort of treat or family outing. 

    You could give her a special doll that is only for taking to church.  She needs to teach the doll how to behave at Mass.

    Get her a pretty veil, Rosary, necklace, etc. that are only for wearing/taking to Mass.
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    Online TKGS

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    Re: Little girl bored, wants to go back to NO
    « Reply #4 on: November 26, 2019, 01:59:51 PM »
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    • I truly don't understand the family dynamics.  Throughout their childhoods, none of my children would have ever voiced such a desire because they knew, from their infancy on, that their personal wants and desires were not relevant unless they were asked.

    Of course, when they were asked to give thier opinions an some family event, they have always been brutally honest.
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    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: Little girl bored, wants to go back to NO
    « Reply #5 on: November 26, 2019, 02:02:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 26, 2019, 01:41:41 PM
    This is a tough one.  Of course, long run, she'd get bored of the NO also.  That was the big selling point of the NOM, but if you ever see the youth at a NOM, they look bored out of their minds, and it shows in their facial expressions and body language.
    Agreed. 100%! But, initially it won her over to baby Jesus. She even used to say that He is stronger than any superhero. She went to bed praying to him, spontaneously, as the priest had recommended. In calss, in the car, etc. she would spontaneously sing church songs. In short, it worked.
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    Quote from: Ladislaus on November 26, 2019, 01:41:41 PM
    There is psychology at play with children, where positive reinforcement helps. So, for instance, after Mass every Sunday, take them out for a treat, a really nice treat. They will gradually come to associate the pleasantness of the treat with being at Mass, and therefore start to associate those pleasant thoughts with the Mass.
    We do. I even went as far as buying toys, not only ice cream, candies and sweets.
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    Quote from: Ladislaus on November 26, 2019, 01:41:41 PM
    Kids at that age don't profoundly grasp things, so you have to resort to little psychological tricks like that.
    I have no moral qualms in using psychological tricks, as it is for her good.
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    In fact, I was hoping in more psychological tricks and, perhaps, professional (psychologist) advice... ?
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    I called a child behaviouralist who is also a friend and he advised, very, very strongly, to not force her, until she understands more complex concepts, less I risk obtaining the opposite reaction.
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    Last Sunday my wife decided to bring along colouring books (recommended here) and sticker books, with Catholic and Biblical themes. "Superheroes of the Bible", etc.. This worked as she got busy and did not cry. The priest (SSPX) did not object, outright, but was clearly unhappy.
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    God loves children and I cannot see how her behaviour would be disrespectful as she has no intent or even understanding. My concern is that I, as father, could be disrespecting the Sacrifice as I do have understanding, if not intent...
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    Is it wrong to let four year old kids colour books at the back during Mass?
    .
    Mothers, out there? Any advice?
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    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: Little girl bored, wants to go back to NO
    « Reply #6 on: November 26, 2019, 02:13:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: TKGS on November 26, 2019, 01:59:51 PM
    I truly don't understand the family dynamics.  Throughout their childhoods, none of my children would have ever voiced such a desire because they knew, from their infancy on, that their personal wants and desires were not relevant unless they were asked.

    Of course, when they were asked to give thier opinions an some family event, they have always been brutally honest.

    The dynamics are that she obeys and does exactly as we say but she hates it and sobs. Our concern is that we want her to love Christ, not hate Him. So we are questioning our method to reach the objective.
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    She weeps without throwing tantrums or caprice (I don't know the translation for that word) so there is no misbehaviour to correct and we feel lucky that she's so obedient.
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    Her wants and desires are very, very relevant and important to us but we concede insofar as we please and indsofar as it is good for her. We use the 3 to 1 rule for her requests that are not necessities: 3 no to every 1 yes. This, plus other strategies, produced, thanking our Lord, a balanced and not spoiled girl.
    .
    My concern is not discpline or behaviour. My concern is how to make her love Christ. We do not want a formal, outward robot. We want to spark a fire in her heart.
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    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: Little girl bored, wants to go back to NO
    « Reply #7 on: November 26, 2019, 02:16:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on November 26, 2019, 01:51:39 PM
    Your situation seems similar to trying to make a child who has been living on candy start eating healthy food.  No matter how much better the change really is, it seems terrible to the child. Here are some ideas that might appeal to a child that age:

    At four years old, she does not have a Sunday obligation. Perhaps she could spend some Sundays not going to any Mass.  Sunday could be a quiet boring day at home for a while.  Then start going to Mass followed by some sort of treat or family outing.

    You could give her a special doll that is only for taking to church.  She needs to teach the doll how to behave at Mass.

    Get her a pretty veil, Rosary, necklace, etc. that are only for wearing/taking to Mass.
    Thank you! Brilliant ideas, we will try them out.

    In fact, she did ask why women wear a veil and used a necklace to pray. We explained that it is a sign that she was ready to receive Jesus after she had learned to pray. She asked for a rosary which we gave her and the priest, kindly, blessed it making it seem a superhero, secret, marvellous ceremony. She now sleeps with it.

    I will try the other ideas. Thank you!
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    Online TKGS

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    Re: Little girl bored, wants to go back to NO
    « Reply #8 on: November 26, 2019, 02:20:11 PM »
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    • Have you considered that sobbing because she does not want to do something or doesn't get something she wants is not acceptable behaviour, ever?
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    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: Little girl bored, wants to go back to NO
    « Reply #9 on: November 26, 2019, 02:25:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: TKGS on November 26, 2019, 02:20:11 PM
    Have you considered that sobbing because she does not want to do something or doesn't get something she wants is not acceptable behaviour, ever?
    Yes. But we do not agree. She may sob as long as long as she likes as long as she obeys. We do not believe in disciplining a four years old, girl, because she cries. We believe in disciplining bad conduct, not tears.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Little girl bored, wants to go back to NO
    « Reply #10 on: November 26, 2019, 02:34:14 PM »
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    • Granted, I am probably not the best person to answer this given I do much better relating to/understanding older kids, but perhaps pointing to the crucifix.  Speaking of torture.  Maybe it's too early, but maybe she needs to understand that going to mass is not about getting something.  I really don't like the idea of giving her things to pacify her.  I think it sends the wrong message.  

    ETA:  I see you wanted advice from parents.  I am not a parent, so take my comments for whatever they're worth.
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    Online TKGS

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    Re: Little girl bored, wants to go back to NO
    « Reply #11 on: November 26, 2019, 02:34:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: ascanio1 on November 26, 2019, 02:25:58 PM
    Yes. But we do not agree. She may sob as long as long as she likes as long as she obeys. We do not believe in disciplining a four years old, girl, because she cries. We believe in disciplining bad conduct, not tears.
    Then, I think we see the cause of your problem.
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    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: Little girl bored, wants to go back to NO
    « Reply #12 on: November 26, 2019, 03:33:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on November 26, 2019, 02:34:14 PM
    Granted, I am probably not the best person to answer this given I do much better relating to/understanding older kids, but perhaps pointing to the crucifix.  Speaking of torture.  Maybe it's too early, but maybe she needs to understand that going to mass is not about getting something.  I really don't like the idea of giving her things to pacify her.  I think it sends the wrong message.  

    ETA:  I see you wanted advice from parents.  I am not a parent, so take my comments for whatever they're worth.
    We considered the risk of sending the wrong message: bribe and/or blackmail, since children already understand these two concepts at four.
    .
    To promise or to threaten, beforehand, a positive or a negative consequence, to a given behaviour, introduces the concept that that given behaviour can be negotiated.
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    To avoid this risk we never negotiate, beforehand, any reward or any punishment. We simply issue them. Rewards follow the 3 to 1 rule (to avoid automatisms) while discipline is 1 to 1. Both are issued immediately. So, in this case, the reward was unexpected.
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    We belive that children must understand the concept the good and bad consequences follow good and bad conducts.
    .
    I do appreciate your comment: going to Mass is not about getting something. It is an obligation.
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    Any ideas how to make her love Jesus?
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    Quote from: TKGS on November 26, 2019, 02:34:24 PM
    Then, I think we see the cause of your problem.
    Thank you for your perspective that I will discuss it with my wife.
    .
    I cannot understand how the cause of the problem can be allowing a four year old, girl at that, to cry and to sob because she does something, obediently, that she does not like to do. I could understand your comment if the child's reaction were to be sobbing and tantrums. One would correct the tantrums, not the sobbing.
    .
    When we discipline her we say: "I love you, but I hate your behaviour which I am punishing". As soon as we feel that she understand the error and feel the guilt, we forgive and console her. In a way, a bit like confession.
    .
    If you have other, practical, advice I would appreciate to hear it.
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    Online Miseremini

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    Re: Little girl bored, wants to go back to NO
    « Reply #13 on: November 26, 2019, 03:36:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: ascanio1 on November 26, 2019, 02:02:25 PM
    Last Sunday my wife decided to bring along colouring books (recommended here) and sticker books, with Catholic and Biblical themes. "Superheroes of the Bible", etc.. This worked as she got busy and did not cry. The priest (SSPX) did not object, outright, but was clearly unhappy.
    .
    Is it wrong to let four year old kids colour books at the back during Mass?
    .

    Not at all surprised the priest looked unhappy.  Did you stop to think of all the other children who saw her (and kids miss nothing) and then caused their parents grief with wanting to do the same?
    I'll bet there were a couple of parents that were also unhappy.
    There's a time and place for everything and Mass is not the place for doing crafts/colouring.
    If you don't discipline hard in their formative years you will surely reap the consequences, even before they reach their teens.
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    Re: Little girl bored, wants to go back to NO
    « Reply #14 on: November 26, 2019, 03:38:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: ascanio1 on November 26, 2019, 02:25:58 PM
    Yes. But we do not agree. She may sob as long as long as she likes as long as she obeys. We do not believe in disciplining a four years old, girl, because she cries. We believe in disciplining bad conduct, not tears.
    It seems that in this case the tears are the bad conduct.
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    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]

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