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Author Topic: Life of the Mother?  (Read 4472 times)

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Offline Ekim

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Life of the Mother?
« on: October 11, 2024, 05:18:43 AM »
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  • Heard a Traditional Catholic priest say “Life of the mother” when legitimate, is accepted by the Church as a reason for an abortion IF it is certain that either the mother or child would die if brought to full term.  Especially, if the woman has other children and family who need her.  He said the Church allows certain surgeries in an attempt to save the mother’s life even if the probable outcome is the death of the baby.  Isn’t that the same as saying abortion is ok to preserve the life of the mother ?  Case in point N O “Saint” Gianna Beretta Molla.  What say you?

    Offline B from A

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    Re: Life of the Mother?
    « Reply #1 on: October 11, 2024, 07:18:48 AM »
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  • I've posted the article below a number of times, but I wonder if anyone ever read it?

    The author speaks of an example such as you mentioned.


    Quote
    Catholics may not choose any evil. None — period. There is a principle in Moral Theology — the principle of double effect — which, under certain clearly defined conditions, permits us to perform an act that has both a good and an evil effect, but there is no allowance whatsoever in the Catholic system for directly choosing an evil.

    A True Principle



    The principle of double effect can be outlined briefly as follows. Sometimes the same act causes both a good result and an evil result at the same time. Can such an act be performed? The answer is that it can be, provided that all the following four conditions are met : First, the act itself must be good or indifferent. Second, the good effect must not be caused by the evil effect. Third, the good effect and not the evil effect must be directly intended by the agent. Forth, there must be a proportionality between the good and evil result (i.e., the good must outweigh the evil).1

    The principle is applied across the whole spectrum of Catholic morals, but notably in the areas of just war doctrine and medical ethics. Ectopic pregnancy, a medical complication which touches upon the abortion debate, is something of a textbook case in double effect. (The pro-aborts simply lie when they say that an ectopic pregnancy is a case where abortion is necessary to save the life of the mother. In no case is the murder of her child necessary to save a mother.)



    Here's a more extensive explanation:


    Quote
      Ectopic Pregnancy and Double Effect


    Listen to the audio version of this content

    Question:
    What is the Church’s teaching on ectopic pregnancies?


    Answer:
    Moral actions that produce two effects need to be evaluated under the Catholic understanding of the principle of double effect:


    • The action must be either morally good or neutral.
    • The bad effect must not be the means by which the good effect is achieved.
    • The intention must be the achieving of only the good effect; the bad effect can in no way be intended and must be avoided if possible.
    • The good effect must be at least equivalent in proportion to the bad effect.
    An ectopic pregnancy occurs when the fertilized ovum implants in the fallopian tube or in some other location. A mother facing a tubal pregnancy risks imminent rupture of the fallopian tube, and thus, there exists a danger to the lives of both the mother and the child.

    Removing the fallopian tube is considered in accordance with the principle of double effect:


    • Removing a part of the body that is about to rupture and cause the death of the individual is a morally good action.
    • The death of the child is not the direct intention of the procedure. It is the removal of the fallopian tube that saves the life of the mother, not causes the death of the child.
    • The death of the child is not willed and would be avoided if at all possible—if, for example, re-implantation in the womb were reasonably possible.
    • The life of the mother is, of course, equal to the life of the child.
    In marked contrast, the National Catholic Bioethics Center (NCBC) argues that the use of methotrexate fails to meet the criteria of the principal of double effect in addressing ectopic pregnancies. As the NCBC states, methotrexate
    Quote
    [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.65)]targets the most rapidly growing cells of the embryo, especially the placenta-like cells which attach the early embryo to the wall of the tube. Some have suggested that methotrexate might preferentially target these placenta-like cells, distinct from the rest of the embryo, so that it could be seen as “indirectly” ending the life of the embryo. Others, however, have noted that these placenta-like cells are in fact a part of the embryo itself (being produced by the embryo, not by the mother), so that the use of methotrexate actually targets a vital organ of the embryo, resulting in his or her death. [/color]
    While recognizing that the Church’s Magisterium has not definitively ruled on methotrexate, the NCBC has reaffirmed that 
    Quote
    [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.65)]actions that resolve an ectopic pregnancy by directly dismembering the human embryo, or drugs, like methotrexate, that kill the embryo directly, cross the line into the intrinsic evil of direct abortion in the opinion of the NCBC. [/color]




    The complete article from which the first excerpt came:

    Quote
    The Lesser of Two Evils


    Forming Character
    In the movie “Master and Commander,” Rear Admiral Sir John Aubrey (played by Russell Crowe) pretends to ask one of his officers a difficult question. He inquires which of two weevils that have appeared on the ship’s table would be the proper weevil to choose. When the befuddled seaman points to the larger of the two, Admiral Aubrey corrects him, asserting confidently that he ought to have chosen “the lesser of two weevils.”

    Aubrey’s joke is, of course, a pun off the moral principle which states that, when forced, one is permitted to choose “the lesser of two evils.” The phrase is used most often in electoral politics. For that reason, we are virtually guaranteed to hear much more of it during what is shaping up to be a particularly gory election year.

    A False Principle

    It is a serious problem that this “principle,” now apparently part of our national lexicon of political ethics, is being mouthed by Catholics. If the relevant Wikipedia article is correct, the origin of the principle is found in U.S. foreign policy statecraft of the Cold-War era. Whatever its source, the dictum is anything but Catholic.

    This may come as a revelation to political pragmatists, but Catholics may not choose any evil. None — period. There is a principle in Moral Theology — the principle of double effect — which, under certain clearly defined conditions, permits us to perform an act that has both a good and an evil effect, but there is no allowance whatsoever in the Catholic system for directly choosing an evil.

    A True Principle

    The principle of double effect can be outlined briefly as follows. Sometimes the same act causes both a good result and an evil result at the same time. Can such an act be performed? The answer is that it can be, provided that all the following four conditions are met : First, the act itself must be good or indifferent. Second, the good effect must not be caused by the evil effect. Third, the good effect and not the evil effect must be directly intended by the agent. Forth, there must be a proportionality between the good and evil result (i.e., the good must outweigh the evil).1

    The principle is applied across the whole spectrum of Catholic morals, but notably in the areas of just war doctrine and medical ethics. Ectopic pregnancy , a medical complication which touches upon the abortion debate, is something of a textbook case in double effect. (The pro-aborts simply lie when they say that an ectopic pregnancy is a case where abortion is necessary to save the life of the mother. In no case is the murder of her child necessary to save a mother.)

    But let’s get back to politics. A fundamental question is this: What constitutes a moral evil in electoral politics? Or, conversely, what is a moral good in exercising our citizen’s right to vote?

    To answer these questions, we must back up a bit to see the larger picture.

    Politics as “Normal” vs. Politics as Usual

    We are speaking of politics. Like economics, politics was classically part of the science of ethics. The Greeks approached it this way, and their tradition was continued by the Scholastic thinkers. Politics is the art and science of governing a society. It is a “normative” science inasmuch as it seeks to govern society well and rightly . Normative sciences, such as logic and aesthetics, seek to establish the right way of doing things.2 We can contrast these with the “descriptive sciences,” which study the way things actually are. An illustration will help: The normative science of ethics tells us how people ought to act, while the descriptive sciences of behavioral psychology or criminology study how people do act — and that is often badly!

    Since politics is a subdivision of ethics, its principles must fit coherently with the entirety of right behavior. All this established, we can answer our above questions very simply: It is a moral evil to support a candidate whose platform runs contrary to the natural law. Conversely, it is a moral good to support one who works to uphold the natural law. For Catholics, to do the latter is, in part, to advance the social reign of Our Lord .

    Some Practical Considerations

    Without saying who my favorite candidate is, I will give some practical pointers on what, from this ethical point of view, constitutes a good candidate in today’s milieu. A good candidate would:

    1. Oppose abortion by some practical means, not merely paying the pro-life cause lip service in order to garner the often naive support of well-meaning pro-lifers.

    2. Protect the rights of parents in the matter of begetting and educating children. This is to protect the family, which is the building block of the state. The state is a “perfect society” (one having at its disposal all the means to achieve its ends), but the family is a more important and more fundamental society. Attack the family and you attack the state, all social order, and even God Himself, who gave us the family.

    3. Protect the patria (the fatherland) by securing its defenses. This is a divine obligation upon rulers of nations.

    4. Cease the prosecution of unjust wars. (By this, I do not mean we ought to vote for a pacifist . Pacifism is not Christian.) The just war doctrine is more than an academic “theory.” It is one part of Catholic doctrine that has penetrated into the very consciences of the nations which constitute former Christendom. When those nations act Christian, they do not prosecute unjust wars.

    5. Uphold the rule of law. While it is not a “Catholic docuмent” (some of its principles are clearly Lockean), the United States Constitution provides the positive-legal protection for the Church’s freedoms in this country. Note, the Church is free because God made her free , not because the state gives her rights. But a just society will respect this freedom the Church has by her very nature. Pope Leo XIII happily acknowledged that the rule of law protected the Church in this country. In these days of creeping statism, globalism, and governmental usurpation of the prerogatives of the Church, Catholics — who have always upheld the rule of law — should do what we can to uphold the law of the land. (For an illustration of the modern megastate’s anti-Catholic hubris, read this .)

    This little catalog is by no means exhaustive, but it is a short list of issues that leave absolutely no room for debate among Catholics. It should be noted that number five on this list — something few candidates are at all interested in — includes numerous moral goods and rejects many more evils.

    Casting My Vote

    Being a citizen of New Hampshire, it was recently my civic duty to vote in the Granite State’s Primary. When I selected a candidate on my ballot (a paper one , by the way) the above Catholic moral-theological principles were my guides. I did not vote for a “lesser evil,” a “lesser weevil ,” or a “lesser weasel ,” for that matter. Whatever in the platform or political thinking of my candidate of choice is evil — and there are a few things I could point to — I voted for him because the principle of double effect clearly allowed for it, and by a wide margin, as the good vastly outweighed the evil.

    And what if the principle of double effect would not allow me to vote for someone on the ballot, either in a primary or in the national election in November? I would write in someone who is a good candidate. To some, that may constitute “throwing away” my vote, but such a pragmatic conception of politics as merely “the art of the possible” I reject utterly as being unethical. It represents the kind of moral cowardice that safeguards the status quo: the near complete marginalization of Catholic moral principles in the governing of our nation. In short, it leaves us prey to such intellectual perversity as “it’s OK to choose the lesser of two evils.”


    * * * * * * * * * * * *

    1 I am unaware of a full explanation of double effect in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. However, the principle is invoked in a citation from the Summa Theologica of Saint Thomas in the CCC’s treatment of self defense:

    “2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. ‘The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor…. the one is intended, the other is not.’65 [65 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II, 64, 7, corp. art.] (Emphasis mine.)

    2 The three basic normative sciences — logic, ethics, and aesthetics — roughly correspond to the transcendental values: the true, the good, and the beautiful.



    Offline B from A

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    Re: Life of the Mother?
    « Reply #2 on: October 11, 2024, 07:27:19 AM »
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  • Isn’t that the same as saying abortion is ok to preserve the life of the mother ? 

    No.  The willful murder of the child is not allowed.

    Quote

     Case in point N O “Saint” Gianna Beretta Molla.  What say you?
    In her case, they were able to save the baby.

    Quote
    Early in her final pregnancy, doctors discovered that Gianna had both a child and a tumor in her uterus. She allowed the surgeons to remove the tumor but not to perform the complete hysterectomy that they recommended, which would have killed the child. Seven months later in April 1962, Gianna Emanuela Molla was born at the hospital in Monza, but post-operative complications resulted in an infection for her mother. The following week Gianna Molla died at home, and was buried in the cemetery of Mesero.

    In the case of the example in the previous post, ectopic pregnancy, it's a choice of: if you do nothing, both mother & baby will die.  There is no way to save the baby in that case.  If you do what's required to save the mother, the baby will die (the undesired effect).  At least, that's my understanding, although maybe someone else can give a better answer. 

    The priest you spoke with was probably referring to cases like this latter — ectopic pregnancy, although it sounds like maybe he needs to learn to explain it more carefully so as not to cause confusion.  

    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: Life of the Mother?
    « Reply #3 on: October 11, 2024, 09:35:29 AM »
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  • Heard a Traditional Catholic priest say “Life of the mother” when legitimate, is accepted by the Church as a reason for an abortion IF it is certain that either the mother or child would die if brought to full term.  Especially, if the woman has other children and family who need her.  He said the Church allows certain surgeries in an attempt to save the mother’s life even if the probable outcome is the death of the baby.  Isn’t that the same as saying abortion is ok to preserve the life of the mother ?  Case in point N O “Saint” Gianna Beretta Molla.  What say you?

    Priests need to remember that they are shepherds of flocks. If for whatever reason they use terminology such as "abortion" for what is NOT an abortion -- neither in a medical nor a theological sense -- then they confuse and set an example that gets imitated.

    Words matter, and vague sloppiness has serious consequences.

    As for Gianna Beretta Molla, she happened to be a doctor, a pediatrician at that, and she knew exactly what she was taking on both as a woman and a Catholic. (Note that she died in 1962.) Yet to modern ears, the idea that a pregnant mother might die has come to be freakish and abhorrent, when this was a real risk for almost all of human existence.

    People are terrified of hardship, and feminists run with exploiting that fear. Just look at the lies being told across the political spectrum about the Amber Thurman case, when the truth was that she was a self-inflicted casualty of self-administered pharmaceutical abortion of a healthy pregnancy (twins).
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Life of the Mother?
    « Reply #4 on: October 11, 2024, 11:54:45 AM »
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  • Ron Paul delivered 5000 babies and NEVER was there once a reason to kill a baby for the sake of the mother's life. It's just an old worn out fallacy that they twist so they keep the door open to kill children.

    In the (very) old days there was the possibility of cephalo-pelvic disproportion which means the pelvic outlet was too small for the baby's head and c-section was not feasable so there was a situation of either or: a determination that had to be made to save the mother or the child- but that was a rarity. Many times both died.

    C-sections were extremely dangerous for hundreds of years, but in the 1920's successful technique of low transverse incision c-section made it so successful that it is now the most numerous and prominent surgery in the world.

    There is never a reason to kill the baby in a search and destroy mission. Sometimes they have to take the baby early due to illness in the mother, but the action is done for viability of both mother and child-it is never intended as direct abortion.



    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Life of the Mother?
    « Reply #5 on: October 12, 2024, 01:52:06 AM »
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  • Words matter, and vague sloppiness has serious consequences.
    Exactly!

    Maternal-fetal separation =/= abortion.

    A large percentage of maternal-fetal separations result in a healthy mom and a healthy baby.

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Life of the Mother?
    « Reply #6 on: October 12, 2024, 01:57:17 AM »
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  • Heard a Traditional Catholic priest say “Life of the mother” when legitimate, is accepted by the Church as a reason for an abortion IF it is certain that either the mother or child would die if brought to full term. 
    This part is modern insanity. There's no reason to kill a child just because the child might not survive.

    Offline Ekim

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    Re: Life of the Mother?
    « Reply #7 on: October 12, 2024, 06:16:04 AM »
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  • …As for Gianna Beretta Molla, she happened to be a doctor, a pediatrician at that, and she knew exactly what she was taking on both as a woman and a Catholic. (Note that she died in 1962.)  ….

    I know this is off topic, and a true example of a mother’s willingness to make the ultimate sacrifice for her children…but did this reach the level of Catholic Heroism and warrant beatification and canonization??? 🤔


    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Life of the Mother?
    « Reply #8 on: October 13, 2024, 10:40:17 PM »
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  • I know this is off topic, and a true example of a mother’s willingness to make the ultimate sacrifice for her children…but did this reach the level of Catholic Heroism and warrant beatification and canonization??? 🤔
    She is a post-Vatican II canonization, whose requirements are very lax…
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Life of the Mother?
    « Reply #9 on: October 14, 2024, 06:11:53 AM »
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  • Heard a Traditional Catholic priest say “Life of the mother” when legitimate, is accepted by the Church as a reason for an abortion IF it is certain that either the mother or child would die if brought to full term.  Especially, if the woman has other children and family who need her.  He said the Church allows certain surgeries in an attempt to save the mother’s life even if the probable outcome is the death of the baby.  Isn’t that the same as saying abortion is ok to preserve the life of the mother ?  Case in point N O “Saint” Gianna Beretta Molla.  What say you?

    Yeah, while I wasn't there to hear the priest articulate the answer, if he said it the way you posted, it's a continuation of the same grave error we've been discussing with regard to voting.

    You're absolutely correct in (and I commend you for) sniffing out that it's contrary to Catholic moral theology to state that abortion is acceptable for any reason, i.e. that any end (to save the life of the mother) can justify the end (abortion).

    So the Catholic answer is that a procedure may be performed to save the life of the mother which nevertheless might result in the death of the unborn child as an unintended secondary effect.  This is referred to as the principle of double effect.  Even when Catholic institutions performed such a procedure in the past, it needed to be done in such a way as to prevent a direct murder of the child (there were very specific procedures developed).  You had to, for instance, remove the child in such a way as to eliminate the danger to the mother, but it's not like you could go in there and directly destroy the unborn child (e.g. by vacuuming out the unborn child like you would in an abortion).

    So, no, there's no REASON (end does not justify the means) ever for an abortion.  There could be reasons (applying the test of double effect) where you could perform a procedure to save the life of the mother that would regrettably and unavoidably result in the death of the unborn child.

    This is where, as I pointed out, the grave error about the analysis of the voting problem has ramifications far beyond the specific application to voting itself, where more and more even Trad Catholics have been snookered into accepting the notion of "lesser evil" or "limiting damage" (Fr. Jenkins' semantic inversion of the same thing) as if they were legitimate Catholic principles of moral theology ... so that their reasoning about other moral situations will be compromised.  We had an individual on another thread here claiming that it would be OK to throw an innocent person off the proverbial lifeboat (the classic example) to save the remaining nine.  While a more nuanced approach to that quandary (via the application of double effect) might be possible, the analysis on the surface (and the articulation of the problem) in terms of how the good end can justify an evil means has already begun to manifest itself among Traditional Catholics in other areas.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Life of the Mother?
    « Reply #10 on: October 14, 2024, 06:25:44 AM »
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  • Words matter, and vague sloppiness has serious consequences.

    100%.  Words matter and PRINCIPLES matter, often more than the actual application to a concrete situation.

    Anyone who says that abortion may be allowed for [any reason], typically among Pro Lifers, "to save the life of the mother" ... is committing a grave error, where you're saying that the good end (of saving the mother's life) justifies the evil means (abortion).

    Unfortunately, the mainstream "Pro Life" movement (which isn't primarily Catholic ... though even its Catholic participants are guilty of adopting this language and thinking) has adopted and promoted this language, that abortion may be permitted "to save the life of the mother" or that this is one "exception" to the liceity of abortion.  This is the real danger of any cooperation of Catholics in various organizations (including "Pro Life") that are not essentially Catholic.

    Prots have always had a sloppy system of moral reasoning rooted in moral relativism (utilitarianism).

    THIS HERE is precisely why I've been so vocal about the grave error in terms of voting.  These SAME PRINCIPLES and same CONCEPTS apply.  Voting is not somehow an exception to Catholic principles where in this case "lesser evil" or end justifies the means now becomes acceptable ... because, uhm, voting.

    So the same process has happened there, where the mainstream "Right" (which are not essentially Catholic but a syncretistic blends consisting mostly of Prots) has adopted the thinking and language of "lesser evil" in the context of voting, similar to how the "Pro Life" movement has adopted the notion/language of abortion being OK "to save the life of the mother".  In both cases, when Catholics get involved in these movements, there's a danger of their being polluted by these non-Catholic principles.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Life of the Mother?
    « Reply #11 on: October 14, 2024, 06:32:02 AM »
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  • Ron Paul delivered 5000 babies and NEVER was there once a reason to kill a baby for the sake of the mother's life. It's just an old worn out fallacy that they twist so they keep the door open to kill children.

    And there's that too.  So, what the Pro-Murder crowd do is to "shame" Pro Lifers into accepting false principles like "exceptions" to save the life of the mother (and most of them also accept "rape/incest"), even though these are extremely rare situations.  They realize that when the Pro Lifers compromise the principle, they've lost the argument.  If these unborn babies are human life and there's a right to life, then there are no "reasons" that would justify taking that life.

    So the Pro-Murderers make up these tear-jerking situations (or occasionally find an actual one), where some 10-year-old girl has been made pregnant by a rapist pedophile and present these to "test" the resolve of the "Pro Life" movement to adhere to their principles, realizing that if they can get that crack into the foundation, the entire edifice has been compromised.

    This tactic has been effective because these evildoers know that the average person (who has no moral framework or no moral principles) is easily manipulated into being outraged against the Pro Lifers if the latter were to insist that said 10-year-old-pregnant-by-rapist girl must give birth to the baby.  So they uses these situations to whip up fury against Pro Lifers ... and so many Pro Lifers will make the rape/incest "exception" as well.  While many of them just do this for tactical reasons, you're actually giving up the game and have already lost the actual battle in making this compromise.  Now you've created this gray area where certain degrees of hardship accruing to the mother might justify abortion in principle, so where's the line?  Is there one?  No, none that can be drawn based upon principles.  This is the same reason that Dobbs was an unmitigated disaster, because the decision tacitly declares that the unborn do NOT have a God-given unalienable right to life, since evidently the states may just legislate it away.  States cannot simply legislate that the liceity of murder.

    This is why the Prot framework of moral relativism and utilitariansm is so harmful and why it's so tragic that even Trads are buying into it, having gotten involved into the mainstream political thinking, which is driven mostly by Prots.  Only the Catholic system of moral theology can act as a bulwark against the encroaching evil of the Pro Murder crowd.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Life of the Mother?
    « Reply #12 on: October 14, 2024, 06:52:56 AM »
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  • Unfortunately, since the entire "reasoning" of the generally-lazy public, with short attention spans and dumbed down (on purpose) by the modern educational system, the most effective way to combat these types of "arguments" is to simply call out the (loosely-stated) principle of "two wrongs don't make a right" (a variation on end does not justify the means) and to lay out other scenarios.

    Let's say I have a child or spouse or parent who's run over by a drunk driver and now becomes a paraplegic, where a caregiver must now feed the person and change their diaper, etc., providing constant around-the-clock care.  So, because of the evil that this driver did, am I permitted to kill this person due to the burden that I have now incurred as a result of the evil action?  Am I permitted to effectively punish the victim again by taking their life?  [Let's say the person wants to live, to take the "euthanasia" angle off the table for this scenario].

    So, if the unborn child is a life and has an inalienable God-given right to life, we cannot punish children by murdering them even if they came about due to some evil act.  While the burden to the victim mother is regrettable, it doesn't justify punishing the child for it, i.e. two wrongs don't make a right.  We should enact legislation where in such cases, the state would provide a victim compensation fund to help raise the child and perhaps even facilitate an adoption (in a Catholic state to good Catholic parents).

    Of course, even the human "right to life" is a little bit off.  What's key here is really God's sovereign rights over life.  So, if we insist that the right to life is primarily in the individual, then things like "euthanasia" are harder to fight off, where it's "their life" and so they can do with it what they want ... and it also, conversely, makes it difficult to justify capital punishment.  Again, the faulty framework that the human being is the primary possessor of the right to life, rather than this being a question of GOD's RIGHT OVER LIFE ... compromises the Catholic approach to these other issues.

    So, until the reign of Christ the King over a Catholic society has been re-established, there can be no true victory over these matters, since we're operating in a non-Catholic relativistic framework, and swimming upstream, as it were against it ... although, as we're seeing, many even Trad Catholics are just going with the flow and jettisoning Catholic principles instead of swimming against this tide by adhering to them.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Life of the Mother?
    « Reply #13 on: October 14, 2024, 06:59:35 AM »
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  • The complete article from which the first excerpt came:

    Thanks for posting this.
    https://catholicism.org/lesser-of-two-evils.html

    Alas, again it's the much-maligned Feeneyites that are the only ones who uphold the Catholic truth, whereas nearly the entire body of "Trad" clergy have become derelict on this matter.  Not only is it sad, but is actually quite tragic and does much to de-legitimize mainstream Tradism.

    In addition, nearly the entire body of Trad clergy have also been derelict on the matter of EENS and Catholic ecclesiology, where the vast majority actually uphold and promote the very ecclesiology that they condemn as non-Catholic (and in the case of SVs, heretical) in Vatican II.

    Online Gray2023

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    Re: Life of the Mother?
    « Reply #14 on: October 14, 2024, 07:56:02 AM »
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  • Thanks for posting this.
    https://catholicism.org/lesser-of-two-evils.html

    Alas, again it's the much-maligned Feeneyites that are the only ones who uphold the Catholic truth, whereas nearly the entire body of "Trad" clergy have become derelict on this matter.  Not only is it sad, but is actually quite tragic and does much to de-legitimize mainstream Tradism.

    In addition, nearly the entire body of Trad clergy have also been derelict on the matter of EENS and Catholic ecclesiology, where the vast majority actually uphold and promote the very ecclesiology that they condemn as non-Catholic (and in the case of SVs, heretical) in Vatican II.
    I can see that the whole situation of government and the Crisis in the church is very frustrating to you.  I am also guessing that you are hard on us here on CathInfo, because you care very deeply for the salvation of souls.  Maybe you feel that if you can't convince us, then all is hopeless.

    What I have seen from your posts is that you have information to share, please share.  The problem is that when you get too frustrated you become very judgemental, which is not a virtue.  I believe your intent is coming from a good place, but all you can do is plant seeds and allow God to handle the rest.

    The EENS attitude is helpful in motivating us to help people convert to Catholicism, but for some people leading with that will send them running for the hills.  Since God gave us free will we do what we want based on who we are.  To convert someone you have to know who they are and build on what they have.  This is why forums like this are a double edge sword.  The writings on here might convert some, but they could also send people running.

    Ladislaus, I wrote this here because I worry about you.  And as much as you think that I am sanctimonious and a hypocritic, I just wanted you to know that I care very deeply as well.  You might approach it from the logical side and I might approach it from the emotional side, but we both want the same thing, the salvation of souls.

    I care very deeply about everyone I am acquainted with. 

    Prayers for all.

    Sorry for the tangent on this topic.

    As for the OP, the only people who really need to think about this are those who are directly in the situation.  Passing generic opinions give rules to follow, but a good Catholic will discuss the matter with their priest and their doctor. The problem is the secular society and secular doctors and trying to find Catholic help is next to impossible.
    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine