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Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: AnonymousCatholic on November 18, 2017, 04:37:14 PM

Title: Laymen baptisms
Post by: AnonymousCatholic on November 18, 2017, 04:37:14 PM
99% sure this has been a topic on here before but can laymen perform baptisms? And what are the parameters to make the baptism valid? Asking because im about to start my healthcare career in earnest and figured it'd be a good thing to know.
Title: Re: Laymen baptisms
Post by: Neil Obstat on November 18, 2017, 06:03:31 PM
99% sure this has been a topic on here before but can laymen perform baptisms? And what are the parameters to make the baptism valid? Asking because im about to start my healthcare career in earnest and figured it'd be a good thing to know.
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Are you going to baptize children when they're dying even without their parents' permission?
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Even non-Catholics can validly baptize.
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Even devil worshipers can validly baptize.
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Even Charles Manson or Jeffrey Dahmer or Stephen Paddock could have validly baptized.
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So don't worry about meeting any kind of moral qualification.
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Title: Re: Laymen baptisms
Post by: Jaynek on November 18, 2017, 06:41:28 PM
This is not from a traditional site but I think it is right:

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An emergency baptism means that the normal rites are not employed, but owing to necessity the minister (priest, deacon or even a lay person), baptizes someone desiring to be baptized, or a child before the age of reason who is dying, using only the necessary form (I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.) A priest having the holy oils with him would also confirm the person. Ordinary water may be used for emergency baptism, though holy water is prefered if available. If its called something else its not water (e.g. IV fluids). Even something so predominantly water as tea or coffee is doubtful matter. One could baptize conditionally with doubtful matter IF that was indeed all there was available and time was of the essence. For certain validity the water should be poured sufficiently so as to run, three times, over the forehead (if accessible), the head, other than on the hair, if not. If the head is not accessible, baptism may be performed on the breast neck or shoulders, though this is only probably valid. The arms, legs and elsewhere are considered probably invalid. The words should be spoken, even if inaudible to others, and not just said mentally. The Church has not ruled on such details, but the common teaching of theologians over the centuries should be followed. It would be presumptuous and dangerous to souls not to do so.


While children may not be baptized contrary to the will of the parents, except in danger of death (it's God's will expressed through the Church), an adult may never be baptized without an indication that this is his or her will. It would be in vain to do so, and an abuse of the sacrament. This would be objectively sinful, though you obviously are unaware of that fact and so are excused. The adult person to be baptized must have expressed their will in some way, and if opportunity affords given the minimum catechesis - God, Christ, Heaven (reward), Hell (punishment).
http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=305724&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu= (http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=305724&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu=)
Title: Re: Laymen baptisms
Post by: Jaynek on November 18, 2017, 07:51:25 PM
There were some relevant posts in this recent thread: https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/what-of-norvus-ordo-baptisms-are-invalid/15/ (https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/what-of-norvus-ordo-baptisms-are-invalid/15/)

The first dozen or so discuss other issues, but it eventually gets to some posts that pertain to your question.
Title: Re: Laymen baptisms
Post by: josefamenendez on November 18, 2017, 08:10:51 PM
Can you baptize an unconscious or confused adult (obviously without their consent) if you know they were unbaptized and are apparently unto death?
Title: Re: Laymen baptisms
Post by: Fanny on November 18, 2017, 08:18:50 PM
Can you baptize an unconscious or confused adult (obviously without their consent) if you know they were unbaptized and are apparently unto death?
No.  Adults must give consent. 
Title: Re: Laymen baptisms
Post by: Ladislaus on November 18, 2017, 08:34:22 PM
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God, Christ, Heaven (reward), Hell (punishment)

This listing neglected the Holy Trinity.  Holy Office ruled that it's necessary to know about the Holy Trinity & Incarnation ... in addition to God, Heaven/Hell.
Title: Re: Laymen baptisms
Post by: Jaynek on November 18, 2017, 08:48:53 PM
This listing neglected the Holy Trinity.  Holy Office ruled that it's necessary to know about the Holy Trinity & Incarnation ... in addition to God, Heaven/Hell.
Thanks.  Am I understanding correctly that, in danger of death, the catechesis can be omitted?
Title: Re: Laymen baptisms
Post by: Jaynek on November 18, 2017, 08:58:10 PM
Can you baptize an unconscious or confused adult (obviously without their consent) if you know they were unbaptized and are apparently unto death?
I think I remember reading that one can baptize an unconscious or confused adult if he previously gave consent and/or received instruction.  For example, if someone, whom you know is a catechumen, has a heart attack and can't speak, you would baptize him.  Does anyone know if that is right?
Title: Re: Laymen baptisms
Post by: Fanny on November 18, 2017, 09:09:11 PM
I think I remember reading that one can baptize an unconscious or confused adult if he previously gave consent and/or received instruction.  For example, if someone, whom you know is a catechumen, has a heart attack and can't speak, you would baptize him.  Does anyone know if that is right?
Yes, that is correct. 
Title: Re: Laymen baptisms
Post by: Neil Obstat on November 18, 2017, 09:50:46 PM
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These are good posts. It helps to see the various points in a different order.
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Title: Re: Laymen baptisms
Post by: poche on November 18, 2017, 11:18:22 PM
From the Code of Canon Law;

THE MINISTER OF BAPTISM
Can.  861 §1. The ordinary minister of baptism is a bishop, a presbyter, or a deacon, without prejudice to the prescript of (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P1U.HTM#2.2.2.3.6.0.530) can. 530, n. 1.
§2. When an ordinary minister is absent or impeded, a catechist or another person designated for this function by the local ordinary, or in a case of necessity any person with the right intention, confers baptism licitly. Pastors of souls, especially the pastor of a parish, are to be concerned that the Christian faithful are taught the correct way to baptize.
Can.  862 Except in a case of necessity, no one is permitted to confer baptism in the territory of another without the required permission, not even upon his own subjects.
Can.  863 The baptism of adults, at least of those who have completed their fourteenth year, is to be deferred to the diocesan bishop so that he himself administers it if he has judged it Expedient.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2W.HTM
Title: Re: Laymen baptisms
Post by: poche on November 18, 2017, 11:19:17 PM
From the Code of Canon Law;

THOSE TO BE BAPTIZED
Can.  864 Every person not yet baptized and only such a person is capable of baptism.
Can.  865 §1. For an adult to be baptized, the person must have manifested the intention to receive baptism, have been instructed sufficiently about the truths of the faith and Christian obligations, and have been tested in the Christian life through the catechumenate. The adult is also to be urged to have sorrow for personal sins.
§2. An adult in danger of death can be baptized if, having some knowledge of the principal truths of the faith, the person has manifested in any way at all the intention to receive baptism and promises to observe the commandments of the Christian religion.
Can.  866 Unless there is a grave reason to the contrary, an adult who is baptized is to be confirmed immediately after baptism and is to participate in the eucharistic celebration also by receiving communion
Can.  867 §1. Parents are obliged to take care that infants are baptized in the first few weeks; as soon as possible after the birth or even before it, they are to go to the pastor to request the sacrament for their child and to be prepared properly for it.
§2. An infant in danger of death is to be baptized without delay.
Can.  868 §1. For an infant to be baptized licitly:
1/ the parents or at least one of them or the person who legitimately takes their place must consent;
2/ there must be a founded hope that the infant will be brought up in the Catholic religion; if such hope is altogether lacking, the baptism is to be delayed according to the prescripts of particular law after the parents have been advised about the reason.
§2. An infant of Catholic parents or even of non-Catholic parents is baptized licitly in danger of death even against the will of the parents.
Can.  869 §1. If there is a doubt whether a person has been baptized or whether baptism was conferred validly and the doubt remains after a serious investigation, baptism is to be conferred conditionally.
§2. Those baptized in a non-Catholic ecclesial community must not be baptized conditionally unless, after an examination of the matter and the form of the words used in the conferral of baptism and a consideration of the intention of the baptized adult and the minister of the baptism, a serious reason exists to doubt the validity of the baptism.
§3. If in the cases mentioned in §§1 and 2 the conferral or validity of the baptism remains doubtful, baptism is not to be conferred until after the doctrine of the sacrament of baptism is explained to the person to be baptized, if an adult, and the reasons of the doubtful validity of the baptism are explained to the person or, in the case of an infant, to the parents.
Can.  870 An abandoned infant or a foundling is to be baptized unless after diligent investigation the baptism of the infant is established.
Can.  871 If aborted fetuses are alive, they are to be baptized insofar as possible.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2X.HTM
Title: Re: Laymen baptisms
Post by: poche on November 18, 2017, 11:20:44 PM
From the Code of Canon Law;

CHAPTER V.
THE PROOF AND REGISTRATION OF THE CONFERRAL OF BAPTISM
Can.  875 A person who administers baptism is to take care that, unless a sponsor is present, there is at least a witness who can attest to the conferral of the baptism.
Can.  876 To prove the conferral of baptism, if prejudicial to no one, the declaration of one witness beyond all exception is sufficient or the oath of the one baptized if the person received baptism as an adult.
Can.  877 §1. The pastor of the place where the baptism is celebrated must carefully and without any delay record in the baptismal register the names of the baptized, with mention made of the minister, parents, sponsors, witnesses, if any, the place and date of the conferral of the baptism, and the date and place of birth.
§2. If it concerns a child born to an unmarried mother, the name of the mother must be inserted, if her maternity is established publicly or if she seeks it willingly in writing or before two witnesses. Moreover, the name of the father must be inscribed if a public docuмent or his own declaration before the pastor and two witnesses proves his paternity; in other cases, the name of the baptized is inscribed with no mention of the name of the father or the parents.
§3. If it concerns an adopted child, the names of those adopting are to be inscribed and, at least if it is done in the civil records of the region, also the names of the natural parents according to the norm of §§1 and 2, with due regard for the prescripts of the conference of bishops.
Can.  878 If the baptism was not administered by the pastor or in his presence, the minister of baptism, whoever it is, must inform the pastor of the parish in which it was administered of the conferral of the baptism, so that he records the baptism according to the norm of (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P2Z.HTM#4.1.0.1.5.0.877) can. 877, §1.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2Z.HTM
Title: Re: Laymen baptisms
Post by: Fanny on November 19, 2017, 04:16:48 PM
I was recently told by a bishop that theology, doctrine and dogma are for priests and bishops, not the laity.

He said for the laity to keep the Faith simple and we can't go wrong: what the Lord loves, I love. What the Lord hates, I hate.  We should follow Faith, hope and charity, not theology, doctrine and dogma.
Title: Re: Laymen baptisms
Post by: Nadir on November 19, 2017, 04:49:07 PM
Well that wipes out CathInfo in one foul swoop!
Title: Re: Laymen baptisms
Post by: Ladislaus on November 19, 2017, 04:58:17 PM
Thanks.  Am I understanding correctly that, in danger of death, the catechesis can be omitted?

If I recall the quote from the Holy Office, the question was whether someone, in danger of death, could be baptized if they had only belief in a God who rewards and punishes.  Holy Office answered that this did not suffice but that the person at the minimum had to understand and believe in the Holy Trinity & Incarnation.

This is from the Baptism of Desire threads.  In the early 1600s some Jesuit theologians began to speculate that belief in a God who rewards the good and punishes the wicked suffices for supernatural faith and therefore for salvation.  This went against the teaching & belief of the previous 1600 years that it was also necessary to have faith in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation.  This is a discussion that has consumed many 100-page threads.  I don't want to digress here.  St. Thomas, for instance, taught the four-truth requirement for faith and salvation ... as did EVERYONE before the year 1600 or so.

But the Holy Office ruled that even in the danger of death, the FOUR truths (and not just the two) must be accepted and believed before the subject could be baptized.  Proponents of the Jesuit two-belief theory try to explain that this was just a practical/pastoral directive and did not constitute an official endorsement of FOUR-truth belief by the Church.  I disagree ... but will not digress here.  

I'll try to dig up the relevant quotation.  It has major practical implications for Baptism.  If two-truth theory sufficed, in a danger of death, I could emergency baptize pretty much anyone who believes in God.
Title: Re: Laymen baptisms
Post by: Ladislaus on November 19, 2017, 05:01:19 PM
I think I remember reading that one can baptize an unconscious or confused adult if he previously gave consent and/or received instruction.  For example, if someone, whom you know is a catechumen, has a heart attack and can't speak, you would baptize him.  Does anyone know if that is right?

Indeed, if the person had shown any prior inclination to accept Catholic truth, baptism can be conferred on someone who's lost the use of reason (unconscious, mentally impared) ... or else can't communicate their assent.  Catechumens most definitely should be baptized under those circuмstances.
Title: Re: Laymen baptisms
Post by: Ladislaus on November 19, 2017, 05:06:46 PM
I was recently told by a bishop that theology, doctrine and dogma are for priests and bishops, not the laity.

He said for the laity to keep the Faith simple and we can't go wrong: what the Lord loves, I love. What the Lord hates, I hate.  We should follow Faith, hope and charity, not theology, doctrine and dogma.

Nah, not really.  Every Catholic should know doctrine and dogma .. and strive to be able to understand and explain it.  No, the faithful are not REQUIRED to study theology in depth (like you would at a seminary) but neither are they prevented from doing so.  Now, laymen should not be teaching in public or trying to represent the Church's teaching in any quasi-official way.  So, for instance, in the Vatican II sect, it's common for lay people to have TV and radio talk shows in which they are expounding upon Church doctrine.  Negatory.  There are plenty of well-educated and well-trained priests who should be doing those kinds of things.  Lay people could, with their bishop's permission, engage in such activity ... but it was not often given.
Title: Re: Laymen baptisms
Post by: Jaynek on November 19, 2017, 05:16:47 PM
I must have missed something because I don't know why we are talking about about dogma and doctrine. The question was about laymen performing emergency baptisms. That is something that every layman should know how to do, especially those in professions where they are likely to encounter those in danger of death. 

BTW thanks for the thorough answers, Ladislaus. 
Title: Re: Laymen baptisms
Post by: Mega-fin on November 22, 2017, 08:24:10 PM
I must have missed something because I don't know why we are talking about about dogma and doctrine. The question was about laymen performing emergency baptisms. That is something that every layman should know how to do, especially those in professions where they are likely to encounter those in danger of death.

BTW thanks for the thorough answers, Ladislaus.
Also important for parents about to welcome a child. Holy Water and a bowl to catch the water is important for parents to include in the birth kit/hospital bag, in case of emergency. Thankfully, I’ve not had to do this myself yet, thanks be to God. Parents should also know how to Baptize in emergency for this very reason! 
Of course, when emergency does not exist, call the priest immediately and get the Baptism arranged ASAP.
Title: Re: Laymen baptisms
Post by: Cantarella on November 22, 2017, 10:56:04 PM
Anyone can baptize, even heathens. This is true, especially in cases when there is a danger of death. One cannot baptize oneself, though.

 
From the Council of Florence, Exaltate Deo: 

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In case of necessity not only a priest or a deacon, but also a layman, or a woman, yes even a pagan and a heretic can baptize, so long as he preserves the form of the Church.                    
 
 
From the Council of Trent, Canons on Baptism (Canon 4):

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If anyone says that baptism, even that given by heretics in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, with the intention of doing what the Church does, is not true baptism, let him be anathema.