Author Topic: Laymen baptisms  (Read 621 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Nadir

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4519
  • Reputation: +2593/-60
  • Gender: Female
Re: Laymen baptisms
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2017, 04:49:07 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well that wipes out CathInfo in one foul swoop!

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 12427
    • Reputation: +6447/-1028
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Laymen baptisms
    « Reply #16 on: November 19, 2017, 04:58:17 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Thanks.  Am I understanding correctly that, in danger of death, the catechesis can be omitted?

    If I recall the quote from the Holy Office, the question was whether someone, in danger of death, could be baptized if they had only belief in a God who rewards and punishes.  Holy Office answered that this did not suffice but that the person at the minimum had to understand and believe in the Holy Trinity & Incarnation.

    This is from the Baptism of Desire threads.  In the early 1600s some Jesuit theologians began to speculate that belief in a God who rewards the good and punishes the wicked suffices for supernatural faith and therefore for salvation.  This went against the teaching & belief of the previous 1600 years that it was also necessary to have faith in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation.  This is a discussion that has consumed many 100-page threads.  I don't want to digress here.  St. Thomas, for instance, taught the four-truth requirement for faith and salvation ... as did EVERYONE before the year 1600 or so.

    But the Holy Office ruled that even in the danger of death, the FOUR truths (and not just the two) must be accepted and believed before the subject could be baptized.  Proponents of the Jesuit two-belief theory try to explain that this was just a practical/pastoral directive and did not constitute an official endorsement of FOUR-truth belief by the Church.  I disagree ... but will not digress here.  

    I'll try to dig up the relevant quotation.  It has major practical implications for Baptism.  If two-truth theory sufficed, in a danger of death, I could emergency baptize pretty much anyone who believes in God.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 12427
    • Reputation: +6447/-1028
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Laymen baptisms
    « Reply #17 on: November 19, 2017, 05:01:19 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I think I remember reading that one can baptize an unconscious or confused adult if he previously gave consent and/or received instruction.  For example, if someone, whom you know is a catechumen, has a heart attack and can't speak, you would baptize him.  Does anyone know if that is right?

    Indeed, if the person had shown any prior inclination to accept Catholic truth, baptism can be conferred on someone who's lost the use of reason (unconscious, mentally impared) ... or else can't communicate their assent.  Catechumens most definitely should be baptized under those circumstances.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 12427
    • Reputation: +6447/-1028
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Laymen baptisms
    « Reply #18 on: November 19, 2017, 05:06:46 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I was recently told by a bishop that theology, doctrine and dogma are for priests and bishops, not the laity.

    He said for the laity to keep the Faith simple and we can't go wrong: what the Lord loves, I love. What the Lord hates, I hate.  We should follow Faith, hope and charity, not theology, doctrine and dogma.

    Nah, not really.  Every Catholic should know doctrine and dogma .. and strive to be able to understand and explain it.  No, the faithful are not REQUIRED to study theology in depth (like you would at a seminary) but neither are they prevented from doing so.  Now, laymen should not be teaching in public or trying to represent the Church's teaching in any quasi-official way.  So, for instance, in the Vatican II sect, it's common for lay people to have TV and radio talk shows in which they are expounding upon Church doctrine.  Negatory.  There are plenty of well-educated and well-trained priests who should be doing those kinds of things.  Lay people could, with their bishop's permission, engage in such activity ... but it was not often given.

    Offline Jaynek

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1728
    • Reputation: +534/-271
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Laymen baptisms
    « Reply #19 on: November 19, 2017, 05:16:47 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I must have missed something because I don't know why we are talking about about dogma and doctrine. The question was about laymen performing emergency baptisms. That is something that every layman should know how to do, especially those in professions where they are likely to encounter those in danger of death. 

    BTW thanks for the thorough answers, Ladislaus. 
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is


    Offline Mega-fin

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 70
    • Reputation: +28/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Laymen baptisms
    « Reply #20 on: November 22, 2017, 08:24:10 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I must have missed something because I don't know why we are talking about about dogma and doctrine. The question was about laymen performing emergency baptisms. That is something that every layman should know how to do, especially those in professions where they are likely to encounter those in danger of death.

    BTW thanks for the thorough answers, Ladislaus.
    Also important for parents about to welcome a child. Holy Water and a bowl to catch the water is important for parents to include in the birth kit/hospital bag, in case of emergency. Thankfully, I’ve not had to do this myself yet, thanks be to God. Parents should also know how to Baptize in emergency for this very reason! 
    Of course, when emergency does not exist, call the priest immediately and get the Baptism arranged ASAP.

    Offline Cantarella

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5937
    • Reputation: +3619/-203
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Laymen baptisms
    « Reply #21 on: November 22, 2017, 10:56:04 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Anyone can baptize, even heathens. This is true, especially in cases when there is a danger of death. One cannot baptize oneself, though.

     
    From the Council of Florence, Exaltate Deo: 

    Quote
    In case of necessity not only a priest or a deacon, but also a layman, or a woman, yes even a pagan and a heretic can baptize, so long as he preserves the form of the Church.                    
     
     
    From the Council of Trent, Canons on Baptism (Canon 4):

    Quote
    If anyone says that baptism, even that given by heretics in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, with the intention of doing what the Church does, is not true baptism, let him be anathema.          
                                                          
     

     
                                                                   
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

     

    Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16