Author Topic: Laymen baptisms  (Read 628 times)

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Offline AnonymousCatholic

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Laymen baptisms
« on: November 18, 2017, 04:37:14 PM »
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  • 99% sure this has been a topic on here before but can laymen perform baptisms? And what are the parameters to make the baptism valid? Asking because im about to start my healthcare career in earnest and figured it'd be a good thing to know.
    "The things that we love tell us who we are" - Thomas Aquinas

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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Laymen baptisms
    « Reply #1 on: November 18, 2017, 06:03:31 PM »
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  • 99% sure this has been a topic on here before but can laymen perform baptisms? And what are the parameters to make the baptism valid? Asking because im about to start my healthcare career in earnest and figured it'd be a good thing to know.
    .
    Are you going to baptize children when they're dying even without their parents' permission?
    .
    Even non-Catholics can validly baptize.
    .
    Even devil worshipers can validly baptize.
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    Even Charles Manson or Jeffrey Dahmer or Stephen Paddock could have validly baptized.
    .
    So don't worry about meeting any kind of moral qualification.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Laymen baptisms
    « Reply #2 on: November 18, 2017, 06:41:28 PM »
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  • This is not from a traditional site but I think it is right:

    Quote
    An emergency baptism means that the normal rites are not employed, but owing to necessity the minister (priest, deacon or even a lay person), baptizes someone desiring to be baptized, or a child before the age of reason who is dying, using only the necessary form (I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.) A priest having the holy oils with him would also confirm the person. Ordinary water may be used for emergency baptism, though holy water is prefered if available. If its called something else its not water (e.g. IV fluids). Even something so predominantly water as tea or coffee is doubtful matter. One could baptize conditionally with doubtful matter IF that was indeed all there was available and time was of the essence. For certain validity the water should be poured sufficiently so as to run, three times, over the forehead (if accessible), the head, other than on the hair, if not. If the head is not accessible, baptism may be performed on the breast neck or shoulders, though this is only probably valid. The arms, legs and elsewhere are considered probably invalid. The words should be spoken, even if inaudible to others, and not just said mentally. The Church has not ruled on such details, but the common teaching of theologians over the centuries should be followed. It would be presumptuous and dangerous to souls not to do so.


    While children may not be baptized contrary to the will of the parents, except in danger of death (it's God's will expressed through the Church), an adult may never be baptized without an indication that this is his or her will. It would be in vain to do so, and an abuse of the sacrament. This would be objectively sinful, though you obviously are unaware of that fact and so are excused. The adult person to be baptized must have expressed their will in some way, and if opportunity affords given the minimum catechesis - God, Christ, Heaven (reward), Hell (punishment).
    http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=305724&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu=
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Laymen baptisms
    « Reply #3 on: November 18, 2017, 07:51:25 PM »
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  • There were some relevant posts in this recent thread: https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/what-of-norvus-ordo-baptisms-are-invalid/15/

    The first dozen or so discuss other issues, but it eventually gets to some posts that pertain to your question.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Laymen baptisms
    « Reply #4 on: November 18, 2017, 08:10:51 PM »
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  • Can you baptize an unconscious or confused adult (obviously without their consent) if you know they were unbaptized and are apparently unto death?


    Offline Fanny

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    Re: Laymen baptisms
    « Reply #5 on: November 18, 2017, 08:18:50 PM »
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  • Can you baptize an unconscious or confused adult (obviously without their consent) if you know they were unbaptized and are apparently unto death?
    No.  Adults must give consent. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Laymen baptisms
    « Reply #6 on: November 18, 2017, 08:34:22 PM »
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  • Quote
    God, Christ, Heaven (reward), Hell (punishment)

    This listing neglected the Holy Trinity.  Holy Office ruled that it's necessary to know about the Holy Trinity & Incarnation ... in addition to God, Heaven/Hell.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Laymen baptisms
    « Reply #7 on: November 18, 2017, 08:48:53 PM »
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  • This listing neglected the Holy Trinity.  Holy Office ruled that it's necessary to know about the Holy Trinity & Incarnation ... in addition to God, Heaven/Hell.
    Thanks.  Am I understanding correctly that, in danger of death, the catechesis can be omitted?
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Laymen baptisms
    « Reply #8 on: November 18, 2017, 08:58:10 PM »
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  • Can you baptize an unconscious or confused adult (obviously without their consent) if you know they were unbaptized and are apparently unto death?
    I think I remember reading that one can baptize an unconscious or confused adult if he previously gave consent and/or received instruction.  For example, if someone, whom you know is a catechumen, has a heart attack and can't speak, you would baptize him.  Does anyone know if that is right?
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline Fanny

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    Re: Laymen baptisms
    « Reply #9 on: November 18, 2017, 09:09:11 PM »
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  • I think I remember reading that one can baptize an unconscious or confused adult if he previously gave consent and/or received instruction.  For example, if someone, whom you know is a catechumen, has a heart attack and can't speak, you would baptize him.  Does anyone know if that is right?
    Yes, that is correct. 

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Laymen baptisms
    « Reply #10 on: November 18, 2017, 09:50:46 PM »
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  • .
    These are good posts. It helps to see the various points in a different order.
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    Offline poche

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    Re: Laymen baptisms
    « Reply #11 on: November 18, 2017, 11:18:22 PM »
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  • From the Code of Canon Law;

    THE MINISTER OF BAPTISM
    Can.  861 §1. The ordinary minister of baptism is a bishop, a presbyter, or a deacon, without prejudice to the prescript of can. 530, n. 1.
    §2. When an ordinary minister is absent or impeded, a catechist or another person designated for this function by the local ordinary, or in a case of necessity any person with the right intention, confers baptism licitly. Pastors of souls, especially the pastor of a parish, are to be concerned that the Christian faithful are taught the correct way to baptize.
    Can.  862 Except in a case of necessity, no one is permitted to confer baptism in the territory of another without the required permission, not even upon his own subjects.
    Can.  863 The baptism of adults, at least of those who have completed their fourteenth year, is to be deferred to the diocesan bishop so that he himself administers it if he has judged it Expedient.

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2W.HTM

    Offline poche

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    Re: Laymen baptisms
    « Reply #12 on: November 18, 2017, 11:19:17 PM »
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  • From the Code of Canon Law;

    THOSE TO BE BAPTIZED
    Can.  864 Every person not yet baptized and only such a person is capable of baptism.
    Can.  865 §1. For an adult to be baptized, the person must have manifested the intention to receive baptism, have been instructed sufficiently about the truths of the faith and Christian obligations, and have been tested in the Christian life through the catechumenate. The adult is also to be urged to have sorrow for personal sins.
    §2. An adult in danger of death can be baptized if, having some knowledge of the principal truths of the faith, the person has manifested in any way at all the intention to receive baptism and promises to observe the commandments of the Christian religion.
    Can.  866 Unless there is a grave reason to the contrary, an adult who is baptized is to be confirmed immediately after baptism and is to participate in the eucharistic celebration also by receiving communion
    Can.  867 §1. Parents are obliged to take care that infants are baptized in the first few weeks; as soon as possible after the birth or even before it, they are to go to the pastor to request the sacrament for their child and to be prepared properly for it.
    §2. An infant in danger of death is to be baptized without delay.
    Can.  868 §1. For an infant to be baptized licitly:
    1/ the parents or at least one of them or the person who legitimately takes their place must consent;
    2/ there must be a founded hope that the infant will be brought up in the Catholic religion; if such hope is altogether lacking, the baptism is to be delayed according to the prescripts of particular law after the parents have been advised about the reason.
    §2. An infant of Catholic parents or even of non-Catholic parents is baptized licitly in danger of death even against the will of the parents.
    Can.  869 §1. If there is a doubt whether a person has been baptized or whether baptism was conferred validly and the doubt remains after a serious investigation, baptism is to be conferred conditionally.
    §2. Those baptized in a non-Catholic ecclesial community must not be baptized conditionally unless, after an examination of the matter and the form of the words used in the conferral of baptism and a consideration of the intention of the baptized adult and the minister of the baptism, a serious reason exists to doubt the validity of the baptism.
    §3. If in the cases mentioned in §§1 and 2 the conferral or validity of the baptism remains doubtful, baptism is not to be conferred until after the doctrine of the sacrament of baptism is explained to the person to be baptized, if an adult, and the reasons of the doubtful validity of the baptism are explained to the person or, in the case of an infant, to the parents.
    Can.  870 An abandoned infant or a foundling is to be baptized unless after diligent investigation the baptism of the infant is established.
    Can.  871 If aborted fetuses are alive, they are to be baptized insofar as possible.

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2X.HTM

    Offline poche

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    Re: Laymen baptisms
    « Reply #13 on: November 18, 2017, 11:20:44 PM »
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  • From the Code of Canon Law;

    CHAPTER V.
    THE PROOF AND REGISTRATION OF THE CONFERRAL OF BAPTISM
    Can.  875 A person who administers baptism is to take care that, unless a sponsor is present, there is at least a witness who can attest to the conferral of the baptism.
    Can.  876 To prove the conferral of baptism, if prejudicial to no one, the declaration of one witness beyond all exception is sufficient or the oath of the one baptized if the person received baptism as an adult.
    Can.  877 §1. The pastor of the place where the baptism is celebrated must carefully and without any delay record in the baptismal register the names of the baptized, with mention made of the minister, parents, sponsors, witnesses, if any, the place and date of the conferral of the baptism, and the date and place of birth.
    §2. If it concerns a child born to an unmarried mother, the name of the mother must be inserted, if her maternity is established publicly or if she seeks it willingly in writing or before two witnesses. Moreover, the name of the father must be inscribed if a public document or his own declaration before the pastor and two witnesses proves his paternity; in other cases, the name of the baptized is inscribed with no mention of the name of the father or the parents.
    §3. If it concerns an adopted child, the names of those adopting are to be inscribed and, at least if it is done in the civil records of the region, also the names of the natural parents according to the norm of §§1 and 2, with due regard for the prescripts of the conference of bishops.
    Can.  878 If the baptism was not administered by the pastor or in his presence, the minister of baptism, whoever it is, must inform the pastor of the parish in which it was administered of the conferral of the baptism, so that he records the baptism according to the norm of can. 877, §1.

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2Z.HTM

    Offline Fanny

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    Re: Laymen baptisms
    « Reply #14 on: November 19, 2017, 04:16:48 PM »
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  • I was recently told by a bishop that theology, doctrine and dogma are for priests and bishops, not the laity.

    He said for the laity to keep the Faith simple and we can't go wrong: what the Lord loves, I love. What the Lord hates, I hate.  We should follow Faith, hope and charity, not theology, doctrine and dogma.

     

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