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Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: mcollier on July 11, 2018, 05:00:10 PM

Title: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: mcollier on July 11, 2018, 05:00:10 PM
Today I had to serve on Jury Duty. 

After a day-long process, I was not empanelled. 

But a few questions came up re: a traditional Catholic's obligations/restrictions when serving on Jury Duty. 


Thankfully was not selected this time around.   8)

Thank you

Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: Miseremini on July 11, 2018, 05:28:05 PM
What was the oath you would have had to swear?
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 11, 2018, 05:30:02 PM
Most of the crimes which involve a jury are crimes against the natural law (i.e. murder, attempted murder, grand larceny, rape, etc), so the idea of an "immoral law" won't apply in 99% of the cases.  

I've been on a jury and never had to swear on a bible.  Even if you had to swear on a KJV bible, who cares?  You're just promising you'll be truthful and just; you're not swearing to convert.  It's not a religious issue!

Finally, you should consider it a supreme honor and duty to serve on a jury.  It is also a HUGE act of charity to do so, for you are giving your fellow man a hearing, whereby society decides if he is innocent or guilty.  Ask yourself this question:  If you ever found yourself in the unfortunate situation where you had to stand trial and be judged by a "jury of your peers", wouldn't you hope that the jury was filled with 1) traditional catholics, 2) law-abiding, honest, hard-working citizens or 3) some combination of the two?

If you try to avoid jury duty you are doing a disservice to your community, by not taking part in the local justice system, and also doing a disservice to your country, for our laws were made to protect everyone and if "normal americans" skip out on the process, then the local/state/federal criminal system is overly-affected by those who just "show up" (probably because they are on welfare and have nothing better to do).  Do you want your country being run by those on welfare?

"Evil will prosper when good men do nothing".  
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: Seraphina on July 11, 2018, 08:18:58 PM
Jurors do not swear on a Bible, only those giving testimony before the judge and jury.  If the particular case involved upholds an  immoral law you need to disqualify yourself.  For example, if you needed to uphold a law concerning "rights" to abortion, same-sex "marriage," or euthanasia, you could not be impartial.  That being the case, when it comes to the voir dere, you'd be dismissed by one of the lawyers as being biased.  
If I'm not mistaken, it is legal in the US to "affirm" rather than swear an oath, so long as you make this known in advance to the judge.  Again, this applies mainly to testifying, not jury service. 
Since so many people do not want to serve on a jury, the courts now summon everyone, even those formerly excused.  A few years ago, my mother was given a "must appear" summons to grand jury located 80 miles from her home.  She is handicapped and cannot drive, also, was 91 years of age!  So my Dad who was still driving had no choice but to drive her in, request assistance with her wheelchair, etc. They presented the doctor's note and had to be helped to return to the parking garage in order to leave.  Four years ago I was summoned along with an elderly man on a walker who was deaf.  Despite hearing aids, he could not hear when his name was called.  He was dismissed at the end of the day.  The next day a woman went into labor in the jury pool room and left via ambulance.  She asked to be excused the first day and was denied. Really, the court should be ashamed to require a very visibly pregnant woman to appear.  
In a few more humorous incidents in my area, among those receiving "must serve" summons have been the deceased, infants and children,  pets with human names, dogs, cats, a parrot, and a horse!  
My opinion is that Catholics should serve if they can do so.
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: TKGS on July 11, 2018, 08:23:51 PM
You are correct in saying that an unjust law is no law but I don't think you need tell anyone this.  A State "law" that is not a valid law isn't really a "law".  Furthermore, you don't have to accept the judge's word on what the law is.  He can tell you his opinion (you should note that judges' rulings are actually called, "opinions" in law), but as a juror, you are free to see what the law says and render your own "opinion".  The best part is that no juror has to explain how he comes to his verdict to anyone.

In any event, Pax Vobis made excellent points and I think what he said should be accepted at face value.
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: klasG4e on July 11, 2018, 10:07:27 PM
The Jєωdiciary and the Kol Nidre -- now there's an interesting topic.
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: poche on July 12, 2018, 04:17:54 AM
Jesus said, "Let your yes be yes and your no be no." I don't think it matters what bible or book you put your hand on you still have to tell the truth.
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: mcollier on July 12, 2018, 09:08:28 AM
Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 11, 2018, 05:30:02 PM
Most of the crimes which involve a jury are crimes against the natural law (i.e. murder, attempted murder, grand larceny, rape, etc), so the idea of an "immoral law" won't apply in 99% of the cases.  

I've been on a jury and never had to swear on a bible.  Even if you had to swear on a KJV bible, who cares?  You're just promising you'll be truthful and just; you're not swearing to convert.  It's not a religious issue!

Finally, you should consider it a supreme honor and duty to serve on a jury.  It is also a HUGE act of charity to do so, for you are giving your fellow man a hearing, whereby society decides if he is innocent or guilty.  Ask yourself this question:  If you ever found yourself in the unfortunate situation where you had to stand trial and be judged by a "jury of your peers", wouldn't you hope that the jury was filled with 1) traditional catholics, 2) law-abiding, honest, hard-working citizens or 3) some combination of the two?

If you try to avoid jury duty you are doing a disservice to your community, by not taking part in the local justice system, and also doing a disservice to your country, for our laws were made to protect everyone and if "normal americans" skip out on the process, then the local/state/federal criminal system is overly-affected by those who just "show up" (probably because they are on welfare and have nothing better to do).  Do you want your country being run by those on welfare?

"Evil will prosper when good men do nothing".  
Thank you. 
I agree 100% that trying to avoid jury duty would be a great disservice and that it would be an act of charity for a traditional Catholic to serve. 
I hope I did not give you the impression that I would ever intentionally avoid jury duty without a just cause for doing so. I have very important reasons why I would not be able to serve on this particular jury at this particular time. 
That said, the Judge put us under oath and asked us very straightforward questions that required very straightforward responses. Wouldn't I be lying if I were to conceal the straightforward truth? (Again, I do not ask to be a wise guy...I am sincerely trying to learn, not so much to avoid my duty as a good Catholic, but to faithfully fulfill it). I have read that the Jesuits were dispensed from giving straightforward answers during the persecution of Catholics in England after Henry VIII. Does the same kind of interpretative leeway extend to the laity and to the present day? As the other poster recalled Our Lord said, "But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil." Mt 5:37 This has always been my approach. If someone asks me a question, I try to give then a straightforward answer to the best of by ability. 

As for swearing an oath of the KJV of the Bible, your answer seems very reasonable to me and I will accept it going forward (unless I get direction from a higher authority on the subject). It would seem extreme for me to refuse to take the oath on the KJV and it could lead others to misunderstand why I would do so. The reason I asked the question was that I recall reading that the Catechism of the Council of Trent says Catholics must burn a heretical text of the Bible that is given to them or that falls into their possession as soon as possible. Given this strong command from Trent I found myself asking myself what I should do since taking an oath is a very serious matter. Perhaps I am being too much of an extremist and this undermines my greater duty to carry out my civic duty which is something a good traditional Catholic ought to do. 

That is really why I asked these questions. 

Duty to country is something I take very, very seriously. When I was in the courtroom I took my role as prospective juror very seriously. That is why in the future I want to be better prepared so I don't begin second guessing what my responses should or shouldn't be in this particular venue. 

Thank you again for your response. 
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: mcollier on July 12, 2018, 09:22:37 AM
Quote from: Seraphina on July 11, 2018, 08:18:58 PM
Jurors do not swear on a Bible, only those giving testimony before the judge and jury.  If the particular case involved upholds an  immoral law you need to disqualify yourself.  For example, if you needed to uphold a law concerning "rights" to abortion, same-sex "marriage," or euthanasia, you could not be impartial.  That being the case, when it comes to the voir dere, you'd be dismissed by one of the lawyers as being biased.  
If I'm not mistaken, it is legal in the US to "affirm" rather than swear an oath, so long as you make this known in advance to the judge.  Again, this applies mainly to testifying, not jury service.
Since so many people do not want to serve on a jury, the courts now summon everyone, even those formerly excused.  A few years ago, my mother was given a "must appear" summons to grand jury located 80 miles from her home.  She is handicapped and cannot drive, also, was 91 years of age!  So my Dad who was still driving had no choice but to drive her in, request assistance with her wheelchair, etc. They presented the doctor's note and had to be helped to return to the parking garage in order to leave.  Four years ago I was summoned along with an elderly man on a walker who was deaf.  Despite hearing aids, he could not hear when his name was called.  He was dismissed at the end of the day.  The next day a woman went into labor in the jury pool room and left via ambulance.  She asked to be excused the first day and was denied. Really, the court should be ashamed to require a very visibly pregnant woman to appear.  
In a few more humorous incidents in my area, among those receiving "must serve" summons have been the deceased, infants and children,  pets with human names, dogs, cats, a parrot, and a horse!  
My opinion is that Catholics should serve if they can do so.
Six KJV Bibles were placed before juror selection was completed. The 12 jurors and 2 alternates that were empanelled were then asked to place their left hand on the Bible and raise their right hand a take an oath for this particular trial before the rest of us were dismissed.  
I suppose a juror could have objected and other arrangements would have been made. 
I would not want to have appeared like an atheist so Pax Vobis advice seems like the most prudent course of action in the future. (I might still quietly/politely ask if they have a Catholic translation of the Bible, but beyond that not cause too much of a scene or disruption). Unless someone else has good reason that the Council of Trent says Catholics should do otherwise with regard to heretical texts of the Bible. 
I know all of this line of questioning about the KJV Bible may seem extreme, but when I think of our Catholic forebearers who died for the true Mass of All Time and for the true Sacred Scripture and Holy Mother Church...I will go to whatever extremer Our Mother the Church asks me to go. 
But I also understand Pax Vobis strong advice not to create a scene that could cause other people to misinterpret my actions and also deprive the defendant of the charity due to him of faithfully carrying out one's civic duty to serve as a good juror (especially on the part of a traditional Catholic who I know I would want empanelled on my jury if I found myself in the same situation). 
Again, thank you all for the responses. 
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: Ladislaus on July 12, 2018, 09:37:16 AM
I agree that I could not categorically swear to follow the accept and apply all the laws of the state.  I would weigh them against Catholic theological principles.  This is known as "jury nullification" and typically will get you thrown off a jury.
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: TKGS on July 12, 2018, 12:15:51 PM
Quote from: Ladislaus on July 12, 2018, 09:37:16 AM
I agree that I could not categorically swear to follow the accept and apply all the laws of the state.  I would weigh them against Catholic theological principles.  This is known as "jury nullification" and typically will get you thrown off a jury.
Except that the supreme court has ruled that jury nullification is the right of the jury.  While you may get thrown off a jury if you make it clear that is an option, the common law of every State and the United States is that the jury may refuse to accept and apply the positive laws of the State if it would be a miscarriage of justice.  Thus, any Catholic can swear to accept and apply all the laws of the State knowing that the right of jury nullification is also a law of the State.
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: Hank Igitur Orate Fratre on July 12, 2018, 03:22:32 PM
Never swear to ANY secular Oath and never swear on ANY Bible or other book because Christ forbids it. Let your "yes" mean "yes" and let your "no" mean "no." 
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: JezusDeKoning on July 12, 2018, 03:59:49 PM
Quote from: Hank Igitur Orate Fratre on July 12, 2018, 03:22:32 PM
Never swear to ANY secular Oath and never swear on ANY Bible or other book because Christ forbids it. Let your "yes" mean "yes" and let your "no" mean "no."
He's just there for jury duty -- we shouldn't over-complicate anything if asked to do so and just follow the laws as best as we can. Nor should one expect to swear on a Catholic translation of Scripture in a country that is majority Protestant.
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: Ladislaus on July 12, 2018, 06:40:46 PM
Quote from: TKGS on July 12, 2018, 12:15:51 PM
Except that the supreme court has ruled that jury nullification is the right of the jury.  While you may get thrown off a jury if you make it clear that is an option, the common law of every State and the United States is that the jury may refuse to accept and apply the positive laws of the State if it would be a miscarriage of justice.  Thus, any Catholic can swear to accept and apply all the laws of the State knowing that the right of jury nullification is also a law of the State.
Jury nullification is not a law.  But if you can take the oath ... and I could not as it's worded ... bring your own Catholic Bible.  Muslims bring Korans and Jєωs the Torah.  So we should also assert ourselves.  I once told an employer that I could not work on a Holy Day for religious reasons and he became very accommodating, saying I didn't even have to take a vacation day.  Jєωs get SAT tests moved from Saturdays, but Catholics are too cowardly to assert themselves, and so we get trampled on.
 
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: TKGS on July 12, 2018, 06:47:14 PM
Quote from: Ladislaus on July 12, 2018, 06:40:46 PM
Jury nullification is not a law.  
I beg to differ.  It is not positive law (as far as I know), it is part of the unwritten common law as established in U.S. courts.
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: Hank Igitur Orate Fratre on July 12, 2018, 07:13:18 PM


Quote from: JezusDeKoning on July 12, 2018, 03:59:49 PM

He's just there for jury duty -- we shouldn't over-complicate anything if asked to do so and just follow the laws as best as we can. Nor should one expect to swear on a Catholic translation of Scripture in a country that is majority Protestant.
It doesn't matter whether he is judge, jury, or executioner. Nobody is supposed to swear to God nor to anyone or anything for that matter. Read Matthew 5:36-37. The next time someone asks you to swear on a Bible or swear to anyone or to anything (whether it be religious or secular), tell them to Read Matthew 5:36-37 and then adamantly refuse to do so.
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: TKGS on July 12, 2018, 07:15:45 PM
Quote from: Hank Igitur Orate Fratre on July 12, 2018, 07:13:18 PM
It doesn't matter whether he is judge, jury, or executioner. Nobody is supposed to swear to God nor to anyone or anything for that matter. Read Matthew 5:36-37. The next time someone asks you to swear on a Bible or swear to anyone or to anything (whether it be religious or secular), tell them to Read Matthew 5:36-37 and then adamantly refuse to do so.
As stated by another member above, one can "affirm".  Refusal to do so would be contempt of court.
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 12, 2018, 07:21:08 PM
The Cardinals swear an oath of secrecy upon the Gospels before a conclave, so your assertion that this is a sin is a false Protestant interpretation of scripture.  
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: Hank Igitur Orate Fratre on July 12, 2018, 07:22:52 PM
Quote from: TKGS on July 12, 2018, 07:15:45 PM
As stated by another member above, one can "affirm".  Refusal to do so would be contempt of court.
Sure they can "affirm" but that's not the same thing. The courts don't ask people "Do you affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you God?" 

They ask: "Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you God?" 

Therefore, when asked that specific question, a Christian must respond to said question with an emphatic "NO!" because their God, Jesus Christ, has told him/her so in Matthew 5:36-37.
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: JezusDeKoning on July 12, 2018, 07:27:02 PM
Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 12, 2018, 07:21:08 PM
The Cardinals swear an oath of secrecy upon the Gospels before a conclave, so your assertion that this is a sin is a false Protestant interpretation of scripture.  
Indeed they do. It is not worth making a scene in court and potentially getting arrested over a misinterpretation of Scripture. 
Quote from: Hank Igitur Orate Fratre on July 12, 2018, 07:22:52 PM
Sure they can "affirm" but that's not the same thing. The courts don't ask people "Do you affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you God?"

They ask: "Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you God?"

Therefore, when asked that specific question, a Christian must respond to said question with an emphatic "NO!" because their God, Jesus Christ, has told him/her so in Matthew 5:36-37.
A bogus Protestantized interpretation of Scripture. If asked in jury duty or in a trial if asked to witness, say yes. You are not going to lie in court.
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: Hank Igitur Orate Fratre on July 12, 2018, 07:29:49 PM
Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 12, 2018, 07:21:08 PM
The Cardinals swear an oath of secrecy upon the Gospels before a conclave, so your assertion that this is a sin is a false Protestant interpretation of scripture.
Take a close look at all of the buffoonish Cardinals in today's Novus Ordo Church and then tell me that their oaths mean anything other than mockery and deceit. Matthew 5:36-37 isn't the mere words of "some lackey like St. Paul or an insignificant Pope," (to use the language of some Novus Ordo people) rather, they are the words of Jesus Christ and there's no other way to interpret said passage.
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: Nadir on July 12, 2018, 07:31:56 PM
Quote from: Hank Igitur Orate Fratre on July 12, 2018, 07:13:18 PM
It doesn't matter whether he is judge, jury, or executioner. Nobody is supposed to swear to God nor to anyone or anything for that matter. Read Matthew 5:36-37. The next time someone asks you to swear on a Bible or swear to anyone or to anything (whether it be religious or secular), tell them to Read Matthew 5:36-37 and then adamantly refuse to do so.
Below is the note  on "not to swear at all" in the Douay Rheims in bold italics

[33] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=5&l=33-#x) Again you have heard that it was said to them of old, Thou shalt not forswear thyself: but thou shalt perform thy oaths to the Lord. [34] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=5&l=34-#x) But I say to you not to swear at all, neither by heaven, for it is the throne of God: [35] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=5&l=35-#x) Nor by the earth, for it is his footstool: nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great king:
[34] "Not to swear at all": It is not forbid to swear in truth, justice and judgment; to the honour of God, or our own or neighbour's just defence: but only to swear rashly, or profanely, in common discourse, and without necessity.
[36] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=5&l=36-#x) Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.  
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: JezusDeKoning on July 12, 2018, 07:36:08 PM
We are not going to risk contempt of court and looking puerile over Protestant interpretations of Scripture. 

If Paul the Peppy Protestant wants to rant and scream like a child over how he thinks the KJV gives him free license to commit contempt of court based on his interpretation of St. Matthew's Gospel, there's no one stopping him.

We're Catholics, we don't do that, Hank Igitur. We are better than every man for himself interpreting Scripture as he sees fit!
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: Hank Igitur Orate Fratre on July 12, 2018, 07:37:26 PM
Quote from: Nadir on July 12, 2018, 07:31:56 PM
Below is the note  on "not to swear at all" in the Douay Rheims in bold italics
Your reference to the Douay Rheims Bible is null and void since Pope Pius XII's September 30, 1943 Encyclical "Divino Afflante Spiritu" made said Bible obsolete. When you cite Douay Rheims, you're no different than a Protestant who references the erroneous King James Version Bible. 

My advice to you would be to read "Divino Afflante Spiritu" and then reference a Knox Bible or Jerusalem Bible. 
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: Hank Igitur Orate Fratre on July 12, 2018, 07:41:33 PM
Quote from: JezusDeKoning on July 12, 2018, 07:36:08 PM
We are not going to risk contempt of court and looking puerile over Protestant interpretations of Scripture.

If Paul the Peppy Protestant wants to rant and scream like a child over how he thinks the KJV gives him free license to commit contempt of court based on his interpretation of St. Matthew's Gospel, there's no one stopping him.

We're Catholics, we don't do that, Hank Igitur. We are better than every man for himself interpreting Scripture as he sees fit!
You do not have to risk contempt of court. All you have to do is ask them to re-phrase the question by changing the word "swear" to the word "affirm." Or one can merely say "I affirm to tell the truth" after the court asks you its blasphemous question. 
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: JezusDeKoning on July 12, 2018, 07:44:52 PM
Quote from: Hank Igitur Orate Fratre on July 12, 2018, 07:37:26 PM
Your reference to the Douay Rheims Bible is null and void since Pope Pius XII's September 30, 1943 Encyclical "Divino Afflante Spiritu" made said Bible obsolete. When you cite Douay Rheims, you're no different than a Protestant who references the erroneous King James Version Bible.

My advice to you would be to read "Divino Afflante Spiritu" and then reference a Knox Bible or Jerusalem Bible.
1) [from Hank Igitur: "in today's Novus Ordo Church"]
[also from Hank Igitur: "Jerusalem Bible", the translation used in England & Wales after Vatican II and today] 

2) The Douay-Rheims will always be a Catholic translation of Scripture.
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: Hank Igitur Orate Fratre on July 12, 2018, 07:52:48 PM
Quote from: JezusDeKoning on July 12, 2018, 07:44:52 PM
2) The Douay-Rheims will always be a Catholic translation of Scripture.
If that's true, then what was the purpose of Pope Pius XII writing Divino Afflante Spiritu in 1943?
And if you refuse to read a Jerusalem Bible, then why not use the 1950 Knox Bible? 
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 12, 2018, 08:05:07 PM

Quote
Take a close look at all of the buffoonish Cardinals in today's Novus Ordo Church and then tell me that their oaths mean anything 
Totally irrelevant!  The conclave oath has been around for centuries; not a modern invention. 

Your scriptural interpretation is bogus.  “Render to Caesar that which is Caesars”, means you follow the laws of your country and take part in civil govt. 
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: Hank Igitur Orate Fratre on July 12, 2018, 08:08:46 PM
Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 12, 2018, 08:05:07 PM
Your scriptural interpretation is bogus.  “Render to Caesar that which is Caesars”, means you follow the laws of your country and take part in civil govt.
You can still take part in civil government without committing the blasphemous act of "swearing to God." 

As I have stated above:All you have to do is ask them to re-phrase the question by changing the word "swear" to the word "affirm." Or one can merely say "I affirm to tell the truth" after the court asks you its blasphemous question. 
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: Miseremini on July 12, 2018, 08:19:53 PM
Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 12, 2018, 08:05:07 PM
Your scriptural interpretation is bogus.  “Render to Caesar that which is Caesars”, means you follow the laws of your country and take part in civil govt.
The bible doesn't belong to Caesar.
In Canada there are several ways of AFFIRMING you will tell the truth .
1. You may be asked to swear on a Bible but if you decline, they will ask if you affirm to tell the truth.
2. Muslims are asked to swear on the Koran
By swearing on a book, you are DECLARING that you believe and hold precious what is in that book,
So why would a Catholic swear on a protestant bible? (Our courts actually have both).
You wouldn't expect a Muslim to swear on a bible, so no Catholic should swear on any book they don't believe in.
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: Hank Igitur Orate Fratre on July 12, 2018, 08:21:47 PM
Quote from: Miseremini on July 12, 2018, 08:19:53 PM
The bible doesn't belong to Caesar.
In Canada there are several ways of AFFIRMING you will tell the truth .
1. You may be asked to swear on a Bible but if you decline, they will ask if you affirm to tell the truth.
2. Muslims are asked to swear on the Koran
By swearing on a book, you are DECLARING that you believe what is in that book,
So why would a Catholic swear on a protestant bible? (Our courts actually have both).
You wouldn't expect a Muslim to swear on a bible, so no Catholic should swear on any book they don't believe in.
Right On! Excellent Points you have made!
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: St Ignatius on July 12, 2018, 08:40:06 PM
Quote from: Hank Igitur Orate Fratre on July 12, 2018, 07:22:52 PM
Sure they can "affirm" but that's not the same thing. The courts don't ask people "Do you affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you God?"
It may differ from state to state, but as far back as I can recollect, in my state the court asks, "Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you God?" 

If you respond "I do," the court doesn't ask you whether you swear or affirm. I've been a plaintiff, a defendant and have served on a jury, and this is what I've experienced. 
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 12, 2018, 08:40:56 PM
Miseremini,
Hanc asserted it was wrong to swear on the Bible.  I say it’s not. If you want to argue that one should affirm instead of swear, that’s a different argument.  I still say it’s biblical to be able to swear.  The scriptural commentary proves this.
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: St Ignatius on July 12, 2018, 08:52:22 PM
Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 12, 2018, 08:40:56 PM
Miseremini,
Hanc asserted it was wrong to swear on the Bible.  I say it’s not. If you want to argue that one should affirm instead of swear, that’s a different argument.  I still say it’s biblical to be able to swear.  The scriptural commentary proves this.
Maybe I'm reading to much into this, but if Hanc is right, wouldn't it be wrong to take vows before the Blessed Sacrament? Far more profound than swearing over the Bible... and it's a very common practice amongst the religious...
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: Hank Igitur Orate Fratre on July 12, 2018, 08:54:28 PM
Quote from: St Ignatius on July 12, 2018, 08:40:06 PM
It may differ from state to state, but as far back as I can recollect, in my state the court asks, "Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you God?"

If you respond "I do," the court doesn't ask you whether you swear or affirm. I've been a plaintiff, a defendant and have served on a jury, and this is what I've experienced.
Thank you for this useful information! Excellent points! Right On!
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: Miseremini on July 12, 2018, 09:22:43 PM
From the Ecclesiastical Dictionary 1900 page 502

"An oath is a solemn affirmation in which we invoke the name of God, tacitly or explicitly, as witness to the truth of a statement.
An oath is permissible in justice and in truth, when circuмstances are of sufficient importance.
An oath should be taken "in truth, and in judgement, and in justice" (Jer.iv.2)"  that is to say, affirming with adequate motive a thing of which we are morally certain or promising what we actually mean to perform.
Without these three conditions of integrity, namely, a solemn affirmation or promise, importance of matter, and equity of motive, an oath would unquestionably be disrespectful to God, and must therefore be a mortal or venial sin, according to the gravity of the circuмstances, or intention and opinion of the person taking the oath"

Now if we have separation of church and state, why would the state require us to call upon Almighty God to witness what we are about to speak?  They've kicked Him out of state affairs so why should we put our souls in peril more severely by making an oath?
In centuries past there was a large crucifix behind the judge, and when a man was condemned the judge said,"May God have mercy on your soul"    TIMES HAVE CHANGED.

A Religious vow is totally different than an oath taken in court which is what this thread is about.
Title: Re: Jury Duty - traditional Catholic
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 12, 2018, 10:41:39 PM
An oath taken in court, as a matter of the justice system, is important, just as the conclave oath taken by Cardinals is important.  They are not equal but are both vital for a functioning society.