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Author Topic: Journet Quotes Pertinent to Sedevacantism  (Read 2622 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Journet Quotes Pertinent to Sedevacantism
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2023, 04:20:35 PM »
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  • Syllogism:

    Major:  Francis' acceptance as pope by the entire Church following his election, provides infallible certitude that he became the legitimate Pope.

    Minor:  One of the conditions required for Francis to have become Pope is that the Chair of Peter was vacant at the time, and hence that Benedict’s abdication was valid.
    Conclusion: Since Francis was accepted as Pope by the entire Church, this proves infallibly that the Chair of Peter was vacant and hence that Benedict’s abdication was valid.


    http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/peaceful-and-universal-acceptance-of.html
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Journet Quotes Pertinent to Sedevacantism
    « Reply #16 on: August 21, 2023, 04:20:53 PM »
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  • John of St. Thomas:

    Objection: We cannot know with certainty of faith that the particular electors have a valid intention of election, nor that they are true and legitimate Cardinals, nor that they observed the form of election required by law, such as the requirement that the Pope be elected by two-thirds majority of the cardinals, as well as the other conditions without which the election is null.

    Answer: The acceptance and definition of the Church, inasmuch as it gives the certitude of faith [concerning the legitimacy of the Pope], does not touch upon the conditions of the election, or the intention and genuine identity of the electors, without intermediary, but rather mediately, and as a logical consequence of what it immediately touches upon: namely, that whoever is elected by the persons that the Church designates to choose a Pope in her name, by the very fact that he is accepted by the Church as legitimately elected, is in fact Pope. This latter is what the definition of Martin V, related above, as well as the acceptance of the Church, is really about. Now, from the de fide truth that this man is Pope, it follows as a consequence that all the requisite conditions must have been observed.  For, faith does not concern itself primarily with the conditions that must be realized in the electors, but only afterwards with the person elected [i.e., the object of faith is the legitimacy of the one elected, not whether the conditions required for a valid election were met].  It is the same with the definitions of Councils. Faith is not concerned with the prerequisites of the definition—for instance, that the definition was preceded by diligent investigation, or a disputation about the propositions to be defined—for this is not the subject-matter of faith. Nevertheless, once the definition has been given [which is the object of faith], one rightly infers as a theological conclusion that all the things necessary for the definition were in place, and consequently that there was a discussion preceding it.  (…)

    "Likewise, because it is de fide that this man in particular, accepted by the Church as canonically elected, is the Pope, the theological conclusion is drawn that there were genuine electors, and a real intention of electing, as well as the other requisites, without which the de fide truth could not stand.
    "Therefore, we have the certainty of faith, by a revelation implicitly contained in the Creed and in the promise made to Peter, and made more explicit in the definition of Martin V, and applied and declared in act (in exercitio) by the acceptance of the Church, that this man in particular, canonically elected according to the acceptance of the Church, is Pope. The certainty of faith touches this alone [i.e., his legitimacy]; and whatever is prerequisite to it [i.e., the conditions], or else follows upon the fact of the election, is inferred as a theological conclusion drawn from the proposition that is de fide, and is believed mediately.

    Sean, as I have said in that other thread. John of St. Thomas is dealing with how the infallible teaching authority of the Church (through a Pope or a valid Ecuмenical Council) can quiet all concerns regarding unknowns in a previous papal election. Any such controversy can be settled by an infallible authority of the Church declaring a "dogmatic fact." The Church did that at the Council of Constance, which is what John of St. Thomas references.

    However, there has been no infallible declaration of a Pope or an Ecuмenical Council that Jorge Mario Bergolio is the legitimate Pope. This has not happened. And it would never happen because his 2013 "election" was null and void. There is no question. It is obvious.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Journet Quotes Pertinent to Sedevacantism
    « Reply #17 on: August 21, 2023, 04:22:57 PM »
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  • Sean, as I have said in that other thread. John of St. Thomas is dealing with how the infallible teaching authority of the Church (through a Pope or a valid Ecuмenical Council) can quiet all concerns regarding unknowns in a previous papal election. Any such controversy can be settled by an infallible authority of the Church declaring a "dogmatic fact." The Church did that at the Council of Constance, which is what John of St. Thomas references.

    However, there has been no infallible declaration of a Pope or an Ecuмenical Council that Jorge Mario Bergolio is the legitimate Pope. This has not happened. And it would never happen because his 2013 "election" was null and void. There is no question. It is obvious.

    Your comment does not withstand my syllogism (see previous comment).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Journet Quotes Pertinent to Sedevacantism
    « Reply #18 on: August 21, 2023, 04:26:00 PM »
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  • Syllogism:

    Major:  Francis' acceptance as pope by the entire Church following his election, provides infallible certitude that he became the legitimate Pope.

    Minor:  One of the conditions required for Francis to have become Pope is that the Chair of Peter was vacant at the time, and hence that Benedict’s abdication was valid.
    Conclusion: Since Francis was accepted as Pope by the entire Church, this proves infallibly that the Chair of Peter was vacant and hence that Benedict’s abdication was valid.


    http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/peaceful-and-universal-acceptance-of.html

    Sean, it is a de fide dogma that only a Pope or an Ecuмenical Council can teach infallibly. So your Major is not based on Catholic teaching. 

    Salza uses the phrase "acceptance as pope by the entire Church." Does that mean that he took a survey of the "entire Church" and this "entire Church" made a papacy infallible? You know that is not how infallibility works in the Catholic Church, right?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Journet Quotes Pertinent to Sedevacantism
    « Reply #19 on: August 21, 2023, 04:26:08 PM »
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  • Sean, as I have said in that other thread. John of St. Thomas is dealing with how the infallible teaching authority of the Church (through a Pope or a valid Ecuмenical Council) can quiet all concerns regarding unknowns in a previous papal election. Any such controversy can be settled by an infallible authority of the Church declaring a "dogmatic fact." The Church did that at the Council of Constance, which is what John of St. Thomas references.

    However, there has been no infallible declaration of a Pope or an Ecuмenical Council that Jorge Mario Bergolio is the legitimate Pope. This has not happened. And it would never happen because his 2013 "election" was null and void. There is no question. It is obvious.

    "The definition of Pope Martin V that John of St. Thomas referenced earlier is found in the Bull Inter Cunctas (Feb. 22, 1418), which was written after the last sessions of the Council of Constance.  The Bull condemns the errors of John Wycliffe and Hus, and contains questions to be asked of those who are suspected of heresy, in order to determine “whether they rightly believe.”

          Since these heretics refused to accept the legitimacy of a Pope unless they personally approved of him, one of the questions that was definitively formulated to detect them, is whether they believe the Pope who is reigning at the time (whose name is to be included in the question), is the Successor of St. Peter and possesses the supreme authority in the Church.

          As John of St. Thomas and others point out, the question is not if they believe a Pope who passes their test for legitimacy is the successor of St. Peter and possesses supreme authority, but if they believe the man the Church presently recognizes as Pope is the Successor of Peter, etc..  Here is the explanation of this point given by John of St. Thomas:

    “Martin V, in the Council of Constance, in the condemnation of the errors of Wycliffe (which is to be found after the fourth, fifth, and last sessions of the Council), in the interrogations that are to be made of those who are suspected in faith, in order to determine whether they believe rightly, puts this question.

    ‘Also, whether he believes that the Pope canonically elected, who is reigning at the time (his proper name being given), is the successor of Blessed Peter, having supreme authority in the Church of God?’(Denz 674)

    “These words do not refer to the truth of that proposition [i.e., whether he is the legitimate Pope] as understood in a general sense—namely, that whoever is lawfully elected is the Supreme Pontiff, but in the particular, concerning whoever is Pope at the time, giving his proper name, for instance, Innocent X [who was Pope when he was writing]. It is of this man, whose proper name is given, that Pope Martin is bidding the person suspect in faith to be asked, whether he believes that he is the successor of Peter and the Supreme Pontiff: therefore this pertains to the act of faith—and not [merely] to an inference or a moral certitude.”
       
        The way this question would be asked today is: “Do you believe Francis is the successor of Blessed Peter, having supreme authority in the Church of God.”  Anyone who answered “no” would fail in their “profession of faith” and be marked as a heretic.

          John of St. Thomas further explains that it would be contrary to the special providence of God for a man, who does not meet the required conditions, to be accepted as Pope by the Church. He wrote:
    t is not merely a pious belief, but a theological conclusion (as we have stated), that God will not permit one to be elected and peacefully accepted by the Church who in fact does not meet the conditions required; this would be contrary to the special providence that God exercises over the Church and the assistance that she receives from the Holy Ghost.
    Cardinal Billot teaches the same:
    [T]he infallible providence of God will prevent it from ever happening that the whole Church adhere to a false head; consequently, no one will ever be accepted as supreme pontiff who does not meet all the conditions necessary to be a member, whatever those conditions may be. That visibility, therefore, by which the true Church is recognizable as such, is in no way imperiled.[8]"

    http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/peaceful-and-universal-acceptance-of.html

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Journet Quotes Pertinent to Sedevacantism
    « Reply #20 on: August 21, 2023, 04:30:05 PM »
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  • "John of St. Thomas proceeds to explain precisely when the universal acceptance becomes sufficient to prove that the man is a legitimate Pope.  He wrote:

    "All that remains to be determined, then, is the exact moment when the acceptance of the Church becomes sufficient to render the proposition de fide. Is it as soon as the cardinals propose the elect to the faithful who are in the immediate locality, or only when knowledge of the election has sufficiently spread through the whole world, wherever the Church is to be found?
    "I REPLY that (as we have said above) the unanimous election of the cardinals and their declaration is similar to a definition given by the bishops of a Council legitimately gathered. Moreover, the acceptance of the Church is, for us, like a confirmation of this declaration. Now, the acceptance of the Church is realized both negatively, by the fact that the Church does not contradict the news of the election wherever it becomes known, and positively, by the gradual acceptance of the prelates of the Church, beginning with the place of the election, and spreading throughout the rest of the world.  As soon as men see or hear that a Pope has been elected, and that the election is not contested, they are obliged to believe that that man is the Pope, and to accept him."


    http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/peaceful-and-universal-acceptance-of.html
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Journet Quotes Pertinent to Sedevacantism
    « Reply #21 on: August 21, 2023, 04:32:17 PM »
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  • John of St. Thomas:

    "Whoever would deny that a particular man is Pope after he has been peacefully and canonically accepted, would not only be a schismatic, but also a heretic; for, not only would he rend the unity of the Church… but he would also add to this a perverse doctrine, by denying that the man accepted by the Church is to be regarded as the Pope and the rule of faith. Pertinent here is the teaching of St. Jerome (Commentary on Titus, chapter 3) and of St. Thomas (IIa IIae Q. 39 A. 1 ad 3), that every schism concocts some heresy for itself, in order to justify its withdrawal from the Church.  Thus, although schism is distinct from heresy, in most cases it is accompanied by the latter, and prepares the way for it. In the case at hand, whoever would deny the proposition just stated would not be a pure schismatic, but also a heretic, as Suarez also reckons (above, in the solution to the fourth objection)."[10]
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Journet Quotes Pertinent to Sedevacantism
    « Reply #22 on: August 21, 2023, 04:42:25 PM »
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  • St. Alphonsus:

    "It is of no importance that in past centuries some Pontiff was illegitimately elected or took possession of the Pontificate by fraud; it is enough that he was accepted afterwards by the whole Church as Pope, since by such acceptance he would have become the true Pontiff.”
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Journet Quotes Pertinent to Sedevacantism
    « Reply #23 on: August 21, 2023, 04:44:42 PM »
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  • "John of St. Thomas proceeds to explain precisely when the universal acceptance becomes sufficient to prove that the man is a legitimate Pope.  He wrote:

    "All that remains to be determined, then, is the exact moment when the acceptance of the Church becomes sufficient to render the proposition de fide. Is it as soon as the cardinals propose the elect to the faithful who are in the immediate locality, or only when knowledge of the election has sufficiently spread through the whole world, wherever the Church is to be found?
    "I REPLY that (as we have said above) the unanimous election of the cardinals and their declaration is similar to a definition given by the bishops of a Council legitimately gathered. Moreover, the acceptance of the Church is, for us, like a confirmation of this declaration. Now, the acceptance of the Church is realized both negatively, by the fact that the Church does not contradict the news of the election wherever it becomes known, and positively, by the gradual acceptance of the prelates of the Church, beginning with the place of the election, and spreading throughout the rest of the world.  As soon as men see or hear that a Pope has been elected, and that the election is not contested, they are obliged to believe that that man is the Pope, and to accept him."


    http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/peaceful-and-universal-acceptance-of.html

    Sean, that quote doesn't say anything about establishing a "dogmatic fact." It simply states that when a papal election takes place and there is no evidence to the contrary that the election was valid, that Catholics "are obliged to believe that that man is the Pope." 

    The quote is answering concerns about hypotheticals. For example, someone might say "how do we know that Pius V election was valid?" This is "negative doubt." There is no evidence that Pius V was invalidly elected. John of St. Thomas is answering that in the case where there is nothing more than "negative doubt," Catholics are obliged to accept the election.

    However, we currently have an Apostolic Constitution, still in force, Universi Dominici Gregis that says this:

    76. Should the election take place in a way other than that prescribed in the present Constitution, or should the conditions laid down here not be observed, the election is for this very reason null and void, without any need for a declaration on the matter; consequently, it confers no right on the one elected.

    The current law of the Church is clear and explicit. If we can objectively-determine that the law of papal elections was not followed in 2013, the election was null and void. The law requires that Benedict XVI be dead BEFORE the beginning of the election. He was not dead at the beginning of the election. Therefore the 2013 election is null and void.

    John of St. Thomas is writing 500 years ago when the papal elections were much different and governed by different laws.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Journet Quotes Pertinent to Sedevacantism
    « Reply #24 on: August 21, 2023, 04:48:08 PM »
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  • John of St. Thomas:

    "Whoever would deny that a particular man is Pope after he has been peacefully and canonically accepted, would not only be a schismatic, but also a heretic; for, not only would he rend the unity of the Church… but he would also add to this a perverse doctrine, by denying that the man accepted by the Church is to be regarded as the Pope and the rule of faith. Pertinent here is the teaching of St. Jerome (Commentary on Titus, chapter 3) and of St. Thomas (IIa IIae Q. 39 A. 1 ad 3), that every schism concocts some heresy for itself, in order to justify its withdrawal from the Church.  Thus, although schism is distinct from heresy, in most cases it is accompanied by the latter, and prepares the way for it. In the case at hand, whoever would deny the proposition just stated would not be a pure schismatic, but also a heretic, as Suarez also reckons (above, in the solution to the fourth objection)."[10]

    John of St. Thomas

    X. Sit conclusio : De fide divina est immediate hunc hominem in particulari rite electum et acceptatum ab Ecclesia esse summum pontificem, et successorem Petri, no solum quoad se, se detiam quoad nos, licet multo magis quoad nos id manifestur, quando de facto pontifex aliquid definit, nec in ipso exercitio, et quasi practice aliquis Catholicorum ab hac conclusione dessentit, licet in acta signato, et quasi speculative putent se id non credere fide divina.


    Translation

    “Our conclusion is the following.  It is immediately of divine faith that this man in particular, lawfully elected and accepted by the Church, is the supreme pontiff and the successor of Peter, not only in himself but also in relation to us —although it is made much more manifest to us when de facto the pope defines something.  In practice, no Catholic disagrees with our conclusion [that his legitimacy is de fide], even though, when he considers it as a theoretical question, he might not think that he believes it with divine faith. (…)”


    Rite (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rite#Latin)


    Etymology
    From rītus (“rite, custom”), presumably from an ablative of an old third-declension form *rītis.

    Adverb
    rīte (not comparable)
    • according to religious usage, with due observances, with proper ceremonies, ceremonially, solemnly, duly


    Therefore, according to John of St. Thomas, if the election does not use the proper ceremonies and duly observe all requirements, then that person is not included under John of St. Thomas's opinion. Universi Dominici Gregis agrees with John of St. Thomas and goes further to nullify such an improper election, in Section 76:

    76. Should the election take place in a way other than that prescribed in the present Constitution, or should the conditions laid down here not be observed, the election is for this very reason null and void, without any need for a declaration on the matter; consequently, it confers no right on the one elected.



    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Journet Quotes Pertinent to Sedevacantism
    « Reply #25 on: August 21, 2023, 06:49:26 PM »
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  • There's only one thing that needs to be known about "Sedevacantism", that the Magisterium and the Public worship of the Church cannot become corrupt.  Therefore these men have not been legitimate Popes acting freely in the exercise of their office.  If you want to claim they were blackmailed and not acting freely, that's fine.  But, apart from that type of scenario, your attribution of this degree of corruption to the Magisterium and to the Mass is simply not Catholic.  Quibble all you want about depositus this or deponendus that.  It's all a distraction from the core heresy you promote.
    Not one iota of the infallible Magisterium has or can become corrupt.  That the pope's ordinary magisterium can and has become corrupt is a historical fact.  Did John XXII teach error in the 14th century or not?

    The public worship of the Church is immaculately preserved.  Each priest who celebrates the Novus Ordo is in disobedience to the current law of the Church.  Quo Primum remains the law, no matter how officially the wolves try to abrogate it.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Journet Quotes Pertinent to Sedevacantism
    « Reply #26 on: August 21, 2023, 09:26:00 PM »
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  • Sean, as I have said in that other thread. John of St. Thomas is dealing with how the infallible teaching authority of the Church (through a Pope or a valid Ecuмenical Council) can quiet all concerns regarding unknowns in a previous papal election. Any such controversy can be settled by an infallible authority of the Church declaring a "dogmatic fact." The Church did that at the Council of Constance, which is what John of St. Thomas references.

    However, there has been no infallible declaration of a Pope or an Ecuмenical Council that Jorge Mario Bergolio is the legitimate Pope. This has not happened. And it would never happen because his 2013 "election" was null and void. There is no question. It is obvious.

    No, the church does not declare dogmatic facts; dogmatic facts are corollaries of dogma.

    What JST has said just prior to this quote (supplied by me elsewhere in this thread), is that the universal and unanimous consent of the cardinals is like a definition of an ecuмenical council, and as such is de fide.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Journet Quotes Pertinent to Sedevacantism
    « Reply #27 on: August 21, 2023, 10:13:32 PM »
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  • No, the church does not declare dogmatic facts; dogmatic facts are corollaries of dogma.

    What JST has said just prior to this quote (supplied by me elsewhere in this thread), is that the universal and unanimous consent of the cardinals is like a definition of an ecuмenical council, and as such is de fide.

    You can see by reading this from the Catholic Encyclopedia how "dogmatic facts" can be "declared/defined":


    "Some theologians hold that definitions of dogmatic facts, and especially of dogmatic facts in the wider acceptation of the term, are believed by Divine faith. For instance, the proposition, "every pope duly elected is the successor of Peter", is formally revealed. Then, say these theologians, the proposition, "Pius X has been duly elected pope", only shows that Pius X is included in the general revealed proposition that "every pope duly elected is the successor of Peter". And they conclude that the proposition, "Pius X is successor to Peter", is a formally revealed proposition; that it is believed by Divine faith; that it is a doctrine of faith, de fide; that the Church, or the pope, is infallible in defining such doctrines. Other theologians hold that the definitions of dogmatic facts, in the wider and stricter acceptation, are received, not by Divine faith, but by ecclesiastical faith, which some call mediate Divine faith. They hold that in such syllogisms as this: "Every duly elected pontiff is Peter's successor; but Pius X, for example, is a duly elected pontiff; therefore he is a successor of Peter", the conclusion is not formally revealed by God, but is inferred from a revealed and an unrevealed proposition, and that consequently it is believed, not by Divine, but by ecclesiastical faith. It would then also be held that it has not been formally defined de fide that the Church is infallible in the definition of dogmatic facts. It would be said technically to be theologically certain that the Church is infallible in these definitions; and this infallibility cannot lawfully be questioned. That all are bound to give internal assent to Church definitions of dogmatic facts is evident from the correlative duties of teacher and persons taught. As it belongs to the duty of supreme pastor to define the meaning of a book or proposition, correlatively it is the duty of the subjects who are taught to accept this meaning." (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05092a.htm)

    The particular "dogmatic fact" in the above examples is that Pius X, the specific man, was the true Pope. In his case, there was no controversy. But with Gregory XII there was controversy. The Council of Constance settled the controversy and declared/defined a "dogmatic fact" that Gregory XII was the Pope prior to Martin V. The Council of Constance was the example that John of St. Thomas used.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Journet Quotes Pertinent to Sedevacantism
    « Reply #28 on: August 21, 2023, 11:02:08 PM »
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  • The particular "dogmatic fact" in the above examples is that Pius X, the specific man, was the true Pope. In his case, there was no controversy. But with Gregory XII there was controversy. The Council of Constance settled the controversy and declared/defined a "dogmatic fact" that Gregory XII was the Pope prior to Martin V. The Council of Constance was the example that John of St. Thomas used.

    This is a very long winded way to concede an argument, as you have just made MY point:

    An uncontested papal election (ie., one with unanimous consent from the cardinals) is, per JST, Billot, et al, a dogmatic fact, which must be believed to remain Catholic.

    But Francis’s election received unanimous consent.

    Therefore, Francis’s papacy is a dogmatic fact which must be believed to remain Catholic.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Journet Quotes Pertinent to Sedevacantism
    « Reply #29 on: August 21, 2023, 11:08:34 PM »
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  • Therefore, Francis’s papacy is a dogmatic fact which must be believed to remain Catholic.

    :laugh1:  Tell that to +Vigano et alii.

    Traddieland doesn't need more "dogmatic facts to remain Catholic" -- it needs unquestionably Catholic prelates who clearly adhere to the Catholic Faith as it has existed for 2000 years and indisputably hold an actual position of authority.  Traddieland only exists precisely because this is NOT the case.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."