Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Centroamerica on February 24, 2015, 08:47:08 AM
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I just received an e-mail from a group of laity that men may not wear jeans and must wear dress shirts only. This is referring to daily life and not just while attending Mass. There is a story behind this I have been told. Something of a certain person bringing the protestant attitude into traditionalist circles. It isn't my place to post details about this but rather stick to the point. The laity may be trying to make up there own modesty rules something to the effect that: if you wear jeans and t-shirts you are not really a traditionalist. Coincidently, the last time I visited one of the homes of one of these lay friends I was traveling after a job proposition while wearing jeans.
Does anybody have any authoritave links on this to help me combat this creeping puritanism in lay traditionalist lay circles?
Thanks.
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Utterly moronic. I suppose these jackanapses till their earth and harvest their crops and slaughter their cattle in dress shirts and slacks.
Ask these hypocrites why they dress in such modern garb as trousers, collared shirts and crevats and not togas and tunics like the first Catholics did.
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Sounds strange to me. Does this mean that a forensic pathologist needs to wear a white shirt and tie while doing an autopsy? (I am a retired coroner, and we generally wore scrubs.)
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Well I think it's a bit serious. It is coming from a religious woman to the laity I have been told. The same has had problems with priests.
I believe it is very likely a heresy. The claim is that jeans are a modernist material and so jeans for being the material they are, are prohibited to traditionalists. Ironic that this comes to the laity from a woman. There are more heresies circulating I believe. I need to take the problem to the priests I believe.
Again, any docuмent against this puritanism would be appreciated.
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Can you clarify just who is sending out orders banning jeans and t shirts? Is this some kind of a lay group you are a part of? Can you let us know the name so I can be sure to avoid them?
Thanks in advance!
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The dress slacks, coat, collar, and tie line is a thorn in the side tradition. I honestly do not see the "dignity" in it that most trad clerics do(requiring such for mass). Our current elites spark these trends, and our elites do not at all carry "dignity" worthy of the sacrament.
Centroamerica - the heresy is known as "fiftiesism"(coined by +Williamson). The dress coat and tie was worn by everyone back then, and many trads unfortunately see the fifties as the high water mark in the history of the church. It is "utterly moronic".
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I will confirm that it is certain before saying anything more about. What I can say is that there is not one priest who has lent his support to such an exaggerated idea. We have all seen how some families become coordinators of chapels and then wage little mini wars with other families. I've seen it in the two SSPX chapels I attended in the US and we can see it as far back as the Medici popes and families trying to control the papacy. The human element of the Church.
Laity have gotten over exaggerated and tried to use the Traditional faith to impose things like that a woman must never sit with her legs crossed or men must never use jeans. If you do these things you're not really a traditionalist and somewhere there is some nun that apparently encourages these attitudes. It's a ridiculous problem that I am working against, and not here to name groups or associations but rather seek some sort of authoritative docuмent on the matter.
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Centro - Clerics do not "explicitly" endorse these attitudes, but they certainly do "implicitly" endorse them. Most established trad chapels maintain/enforce the dress code when on chapel property for functions even outside of mass. That is a clear message, and the message is that jeans and non collar w/tie shirts are unbecoming. Do they have something against shades of blue(other colors work for denim)? Is it the low thread count? Is it that they don't make jeans out of polyester(the banksters/elites preference, that most dress slacks are made out of)?
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I think that this is serious. The only argument against jeans is that sinners wear them(jeans are very popular in this sinful generation); and we don't want to be associated with them. It is in conformity with scripture - "do not emulate evil doers, nor envy them that commit iniquity". But, then, alongside that approach, the suit, collar, tie, and dressy pants is promoted and enforced. But, what types generally wear this outfit? Politicians(the good yet mostly bad) and elites(the "filthy" rich) wear these outfits. Why then is it expedient to associate with them? It doesn't make and catholic sense.
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Can you clarify just who is sending out orders banning jeans and t shirts? Is this some kind of a lay group you are a part of? Can you let us know the name so I can be sure to avoid them?
Probably some dogmatic and home-alone sede(s) suffering from schizoid personality disorder and / or schizophrenia.
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I just received an e-mail from a group of laity that men may not wear jeans and must wear dress shirts only. This is referring to daily life and not just while attending Mass. There is a story behind this I have been told. Something of a certain person bringing the protestant attitude into traditionalist circles. It isn't my place to post details about this but rather stick to the point. The laity may be trying to make up there own modesty rules something to the effect that: if you wear jeans and t-shirts you are not really a traditionalist. Coincidently, the last time I visited one of the homes of one of these lay friends I was traveling after a job proposition while wearing jeans.
Does anybody have any authoritave links on this to help me combat this creeping puritanism in lay traditionalist lay circles?
Thanks.
It looks like somebody has too much time on their hands.
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I think that this is serious. The only argument against jeans is that sinners wear them(jeans are very popular in this sinful generation); and we don't want to be associated with them. It is in conformity with scripture - "do not emulate evil doers, nor envy them that commit iniquity". But, then, alongside that approach, the suit, collar, tie, and dressy pants is promoted and enforced. But, what types generally wear this outfit? Politicians(the good yet mostly bad) and elites(the "filthy" rich) wear these outfits. Why then is it expedient to associate with them? It doesn't make and catholic sense.
Generally I think politicians dress for their audience. It's not strange to see a politician wearing a button down shirt and jeans if they're talking to a farming community. Mitt Romney did it.
During the middle ages the nobility wore clothing to differentiate themselves from other classes. In democracy we see the elites trying to appear more average to fool the masses in believing we are all the same.
Are we dressing like the elites or are the elites dressing more like us? Look at Steve Jobs. He led a giant company but wore a turtle neck and jeans all the time
Wearing t-shirts and jeans was popularized by Hollywood and Marlon Brando. I can understand why people that grew up in that era might see it a little different. It was a clear cultural shift..
The French Revolution started the largest cultural shift in fashion. During the revolution breeches were a symbol of the nobility. The revolutionaries instead wore pants to look more like the poor. Read the bold text below. This is why the elites of today dress more like the average man.
The sans-culotte consisted of the working-class. During the height of the sans-culottes movement, Momoro remarked, "A sans-culotte is someone who goes everywhere on foot, who isn't loaded with money like the rest of you, but lives quietly with his wife and children . . . on the fourth or fifth floor" (Lewis, 102). The reference to the upper floors comes from the fact that the poorer workers tended to occupy the top floors or attics of apartment blocks. Such descriptions are evocative, but misleading. The sans-culotte did not necessarily represent the poorest section of the urban crowd, as pictured above. Some were poor, but the militant sans-culottes were more often than not skilled workers and shopkeepers from the middle class.
The elite members of the sans-culotte preferred the trousers of the working-man. They disdained the breeches of the aristocracy or upper-middle classes. They felt that all classes were equal and, therefore, should not be segregated by fashion. .
Link (https://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/rschwart/hist255/la/sans-culottes.html)
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Well, I will confirm that the message does not come from home aloners or sedes, these are friends from Mass. What I am afraid of is that it is the orientation from a nun. I received an excellent response from a priest last night. he said that there is nothing wrong with discouraging jeans, but they should not be prohibited. The attitude that is exagerrated about what you wear sometimes seems very anti-modernist on the outside and lacking virtue on the inside. Young men and laity should take their advice from padres (priests) and not madres (nun superiors). Also jeans are made from cotton while slacks and dress pants are made from polyester, (so which material is more modern?).
Someone said that sinners wear jeans!!! Sinners do lots of things, like breath air and smoke cigarretes, drink beer, but these things are not prohibited.
Like I said originally, I think that it is an inculturation coming from converts from the protestant sects. Johovah's witnesses walk down the street wearing their uniforms so now some newbies who converted 3 years ago want to impose their will on all Catholics that we must never wear jeans.
The serious of the matter is that the email I receieved uses some interesting language.
For example, regarding modesty "we don't have opinions" and "submission" in "all occasions" the modesty must be submitted to "what the Holy Mother Church teaches" and as a "general orientation men must only wear dress pants and dress shirts".
So now I am being told that it is the teaching of the Church that I must never wear a t-shirt and jeans in my daily life, or I am a modernist, not submitting to Holy Mother Church.
Again any docuмents against this creeping puritanism would be very appreciated. If they want to be puritans they can go join the thousand something heretical sects that walk the streets.
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The heart of the issue is if wearing jeans is: against the submission to holy Mother Church regarding modesty.
Is wearing jeans considered immodest, for example when going to the neighborhood grocery store with your wife and more so does the Church teach this?
Does it mean you are not really a traditionalist if you choose to do so?
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The heart of the issue is if wearing jeans is: against the submission to holy Mother Church regarding modesty.
Is wearing jeans considered immodest, for example when going to the neighborhood grocery store with your wife and more so does the Church teach this?
Does it mean you are not really a traditionalist if you choose to do so?
No, men wearing jeans is no sin against modesty.
You may wear your jeans to Mass if you work in them, or if that was all you owned.
The question of whether one is really a traditionalist if he chooses to wear jeans is sad. I am sorry that some bully is trying to dominate whatever group you are in. If this is tolerated by the rest of your group, I hope you will consider keeping an eye out lest it become yet another cult.
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I don't think you will find any docuмents that specifically state what should or should not be worn as the fabrics, cut, and fit of dress change over time and location.
What is important is the principle of modesty and appropriateness. Jeans to Mass for men? Only if you cannot afford anything else or perhaps are on your way to work after daily Mass. For women? Never to Mass but otherwise I would think only if you're doing something like hoeing a field or climbing on the roof to clean the gutters.
Some folks always have time to micro-manage others :sad:
Marsha
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I don't think you will find any docuмents that specifically state what should or should not be worn as the fabrics, cut, and fit of dress change over time and location.
What is important is the principle of modesty and appropriateness. Jeans to Mass for men? Only if you cannot afford anything else or perhaps are on your way to work after daily Mass. For women? Never to Mass but otherwise I would think only if you're doing something like hoeing a field or climbing on the roof to clean the gutters.
Some folks always have time to micro-manage others :sad:
Marsha
I agree Marsha.
The issue was prohibiting jeans entirely for men. Not allowing jeans even to be worn to the grocery store.
I agree about Mass. If one does not have dress pants or is leaving from work.
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You won't find any docuмents on this but that is to your advantage. It means jean is not prohibited either.
A fabric in and of itself is neutral, neither good nor bad. What we do with it is what lends a moral weight. Skinny jeans imo would always be sinful. Nobody needs to wear anything that tight, especially men, and I find it impossible that they can be considered modest by any standards. But that's what's done with the fabric, it is not the fabric itself that is immoral.
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You won't find any docuмents on this but that is to your advantage. It means jean is not prohibited either.
A fabric in and of itself is neutral, neither good nor bad. What we do with it is what lends a moral weight. Skinny jeans imo would always be sinful. Nobody needs to wear anything that tight, especially men, and I find it impossible that they can be considered modest by any standards. But that's what's done with the fabric, it is not the fabric itself that is immoral.
Skinny jeans are definitely immodest for anyone, I think.
When I say jeans I mean boot cut, traditional Levi (or whatever brand, not important, just what I hapoen to be wearing now) without holes or any strange style. I don't think they're immoral in any way.
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Anyone who says that men should wear dress shirts and dress pants doing manual labor is divorced from reality and needs his/her head examined. Jeans are necessary and needed for outdoor work especially, and I would say any blue-collar job.
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While dressing up has no explicit influence on one's faith and morals, we must understand that what is socially tolerated is not necessarily to be positively encouraged.
Since the 50s especially, it is no doubt that we have lost a sense of order and form. Americans especially have the propensity to think anything with form and order is restrictive on their freedom.
In the 1930s, one could watch the Olympics without being scandalized. Not so in the 1960s. The same applied to going to a public beach.
When we avoid form, order and degrees we are implicitly tolerating disorder, because that is what necessarily follows--no matter one's intention.
We must live in a society that encourages form and makes things for purpose and occasion. There must be a dress code in society for just about every event. I am especially impressed with the British (men) who at least know how to dress up for weddings and other formal occasions (morning coats and stripped trousers etc) or who play cricket and polo with attire that has not really changed over time. Unfortunately, I cannot say the same for British football.
While one might wear jeans or track pants, such should not be the default. Even when driving to the gym, why must we all be subject to see gym attire outside the confines of the gym?
We are moving into a new age where we think certain rules do not apply, but history will judge us more as brutes.
All this having been said, I do think once we return to our senses-with the faith and its relation to society (government, music, arts, etc) we will see another swing back to order in clothing.
This post is not a judgement on traditional, but just an observance of the solemn protestation of today's people to conform a little bit to standards that will help promote respect of persons.
None of what I have written above is in any way encouraging pretentiousness or dismissing poverty.
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The heart of the issue is if wearing jeans is: against the submission to holy Mother Church regarding modesty.
Is wearing jeans considered immodest, for example when going to the neighborhood grocery store with your wife and more so does the Church teach this?
Does it mean you are not really a traditionalist if you choose to do so?
No, men wearing jeans is no sin against modesty.
No, not inherently. But many jeans are cut in such a way as to accentuate the anatomy; consequently, such jeans would be against modesty. But that's not due to the material itself but to the cut.
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I was probably imagining the Marlboro Man type of jeans style.
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Utterly moronic. I suppose these jackanapses till their earth and harvest their crops and slaughter their cattle in dress shirts and slacks.
Ask these hypocrites why they dress in such modern garb as trousers, collared shirts and crevats and not togas and tunics like the first Catholics did.
To the three down-thumbers: Do you do intense manual labor in dress shirts and slacks? Do you shun modern garb for tunics and togas?
Because what I was attacking in that post was not a level-headed critique of the modern tendency to dress slovenly and informally at all times for the sake of comfort (a critique with which I would agree), but rather the puritanical idiocy (described by the OP) that posit some intrinsic evil in jeans and t-shirts per se and pharisaically forbids the wearing of these items at any time and for any reason.
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Utterly moronic. I suppose these jackanapses till their earth and harvest their crops and slaughter their cattle in dress shirts and slacks.
Ask these hypocrites why they dress in such modern garb as trousers, collared shirts and crevats and not togas and tunics like the first Catholics did.
To the three down-thumbers: Do you do intense manual labor in dress shirts and slacks? Do you shun modern garb for tunics and togas?
Because what I was attacking in that post was not a level-headed critique of the modern tendency to dress slovenly and informally at all times for the sake of comfort (a critique with which I would agree), but rather the puritanical idiocy (described by the OP) that posit some intrinsic evil in jeans and t-shirts per se and pharisaically forbids the wearing of these items at any time and for any reason.
I agree.
I noticed there were a few "drive-by" down thumbers on this thread who had nothing to contribute to the discussion.
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The heart of the issue is if wearing jeans is: against the submission to holy Mother Church regarding modesty.
Is wearing jeans considered immodest, for example when going to the neighborhood grocery store with your wife and more so does the Church teach this?
Does it mean you are not really a traditionalist if you choose to do so?
No, men wearing jeans is no sin against modesty.
No, not inherently. But many jeans are cut in such a way as to accentuate the anatomy; consequently, such jeans would be against modesty. But that's not due to the material itself but to the cut.
To be more specific, the cut jeans to accentuate anatomy are not the topic of the thread. We are talking about loose fit boot cut jeans that actually accentuate the anatomy much less than dress pants.
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The heart of the issue is if wearing jeans is: against the submission to holy Mother Church regarding modesty.
Is wearing jeans considered immodest, for example when going to the neighborhood grocery store with your wife and more so does the Church teach this?
Does it mean you are not really a traditionalist if you choose to do so?
No, men wearing jeans is no sin against modesty.
You may wear your jeans to Mass if you work in them, or if that was all you owned.
The question of whether one is really a traditionalist if he chooses to wear jeans is sad. I am sorry that some bully is trying to dominate whatever group you are in. If this is tolerated by the rest of your group, I hope you will consider keeping an eye out lest it become yet another cult.
I heartily agree!
There is nothing wrong with regular or loose-fit jeans.
Jeans are a PRACTICAL fabric that last a long time, and allow a person to do lots of hard, dirty work. You know, the domain of men. Men need to be dressed and ready to work. Jean material is also rather thick and stiff, so the material does NOT respond well to every microscopic curve of one's anatomy.
Contrast jean material with, say, sweatpants. I won't go into graphic detail, but I think most of you know what I mean.
Let's just say if I was accidentally pushed into a young lady wearing a jean dress/skirt, there would be less "resulting temptations" than if she was wearing a cotton skirt. Know what I mean? Jean material almost qualifies as a heavy-duty tarp!
You often can't tell if certain square inches of volume are even "person" under there, or just air! They are very thick material, and certainly "conceal rather than reveal" in every way. As such, they are a very moral choice for clothing material.
Yes, you shouldn't wear them to *Sunday* Mass. But anyone who has missed ONE daily Mass in their life because they couldn't "get cleaned up first" or "get changed and all that" is misguided, and I'm here to tell them. It is perfectly licit for workmen to appear at Mass in their work attire on weekdays.
It's only on Sunday you're supposed to wear your Sunday Best -- hey, maybe that's why it's called "Sunday best"?
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A priest (that happens to offer mass for this same group of laity) recently responded exactly just that. What if jeans was all that you owned? It seems some laity want to impose their will on others under the banner of the faith. It's like it says that if you're poor or not "well to do" you can't attend at this chapel.
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While dressing up has no explicit influence on one's faith and morals, we must understand that what is socially tolerated is not necessarily to be positively encouraged.
Since the 50s especially, it is no doubt that we have lost a sense of order and form. Americans especially have the propensity to think anything with form and order is restrictive on their freedom.
In the 1930s, one could watch the Olympics without being scandalized. Not so in the 1960s. The same applied to going to a public beach.
When we avoid form, order and degrees we are implicitly tolerating disorder, because that is what necessarily follows--no matter one's intention.
We must live in a society that encourages form and makes things for purpose and occasion. There must be a dress code in society for just about every event. I am especially impressed with the British (men) who at least know how to dress up for weddings and other formal occasions (morning coats and stripped trousers etc) or who play cricket and polo with attire that has not really changed over time. Unfortunately, I cannot say the same for British football.
While one might wear jeans or track pants, such should not be the default. Even when driving to the gym, why must we all be subject to see gym attire outside the confines of the gym?
We are moving into a new age where we think certain rules do not apply, but history will judge us more as brutes.
All this having been said, I do think once we return to our senses-with the faith and its relation to society (government, music, arts, etc) we will see another swing back to order in clothing.
This post is not a judgement on traditional, but just an observance of the solemn protestation of today's people to conform a little bit to standards that will help promote respect of persons.
None of what I have written above is in any way encouraging pretentiousness or dismissing poverty.
I agree with this and I think that sometimes when "people" speak against or discourage jeans and t-shirts, they are really just trying to raise our standards of dress, which isn't a bad thing in itself. Society in general needs a boost, badly. We're trending more and more slovenly, without any sense of propriety or occasion. However, I think going after jeans and t-shirts is a misguided effort. It's not about eliminating jeans/jean and t-shirts, it's about knowing when and where it's appropriate to wear them.
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I just received an e-mail from a group of laity that men may not wear jeans and must wear dress shirts only. This is referring to daily life and not just while attending Mass. There is a story behind this I have been told. Something of a certain person bringing the protestant attitude into traditionalist circles. It isn't my place to post details about this but rather stick to the point. The laity may be trying to make up there own modesty rules something to the effect that: if you wear jeans and t-shirts you are not really a traditionalist. Coincidently, the last time I visited one of the homes of one of these lay friends I was traveling after a job proposition while wearing jeans.
Does anybody have any authoritave links on this to help me combat this creeping puritanism in lay traditionalist lay circles?
Thanks.
It looks like somebody has too much time on their hands.
Which chapel is that?
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I just received an e-mail from a group of laity that men may not wear jeans and must wear dress shirts only. This is referring to daily life and not just while attending Mass. There is a story behind this I have been told. Something of a certain person bringing the protestant attitude into traditionalist circles. It isn't my place to post details about this but rather stick to the point. The laity may be trying to make up there own modesty rules something to the effect that: if you wear jeans and t-shirts you are not really a traditionalist. Coincidently, the last time I visited one of the homes of one of these lay friends I was traveling after a job proposition while wearing jeans.
Does anybody have any authoritave links on this to help me combat this creeping puritanism in lay traditionalist lay circles?
Thanks.
It looks like somebody has too much time on their hands.
Which chapel is that?
It's not really important who said it, I don't think.
I hope you don't take me as being rude, just saying that I don't think it's necessary. This isn't the consensus of the entire chapel, just someone who happens to be coordinating the chapel and their will that they wish to impose.
It is highly unlikely that any member reading this thread will be presented with the opportunity to attend at this chapel, and if they did the lack of ventilation in tropical weather and crowded space would be more important to advise them of then the flimsy little egos.