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Author Topic: Jansenism v. Liberalism  (Read 7413 times)

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Offline Odalia

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Jansenism v. Liberalism
« on: March 05, 2013, 08:00:18 AM »
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  • After forty years wandering around in the NO desert I finally found a monastery where the priest offers the traditional Mass and teachings.I have been going there for three years now but I'm increasingly worried that his sermons although generally very good tend towards Jansenism. He says things like real Catholics don't drink, smoke or dance.This is Puritanism not Catholicism.
    I understand that  the difference between Catholicism and Puritanism is that Catholics do not regard alcohol as an evil but a good but if you want you can give up a good, alcohol, for a higher good . That is Catholic.
     I remember Catholicism before Vatican II. We dressed modestly like everyone else at the time, we didn't dress like Amish. Our parents (Irish Catholics) drank,smoked,danced and put bets on the horse races. They were good catholics that didn''t contracept, divorce or have children outside marriage.I feel just as unhappy seeing people going to Mass dressed up like Puritans as I did when I used to got the NO Masses and women would wear backless dresses and the men bermudas .
    Most of the women remind me of the "Beatas"who were also a part of the Catholic Church in the fifties . I know in this awful modern world it is probably tempting to go to the other extreme in terms of dress and behavior but I'm worried that this leads to vainglory.
     I feel very divided. I just go for the Mass and don't stay around to socialise withe the rest of the community.But as far as I know Jansenism is just as much a heresy as Liberalism. Has anyone come across this situation and how did they deal with it?


    Offline Telesphorus

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    Jansenism v. Liberalism
    « Reply #1 on: March 05, 2013, 08:05:44 AM »
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  • Quote
    He says things like real Catholics don't drink, smoke or dance.This is Puritanism not Catholicism.


    It has nothing to do with Puritanism. (Puritans drank and smoked)  If he literally says they don't drink, smoke or dance, that is rigorism.

    That being said: Catholics recognize that drunkenness is a sin. Nor do they needlessly enter into occasions of sin. (many dances qualify - especially dancing to obscene "pop music")

    They also do not senselessly endanger their health. (which is something heavy smokers do)



    Offline ggreg

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    Jansenism v. Liberalism
    « Reply #2 on: March 05, 2013, 08:20:58 AM »
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  • I deal with it in the way you have described above.

    I look at what the modal average successful Catholic family does, ignore the thin tails and go with what makes sense to me.

    Immitation is easier than innovation, and less risky.

    Then I go to Mass where it is available and just ignore the nutters and rigourists; as far as possible.  If it gets too much, because the priest is a nutter and a rigourist and encourages them, then I travel further to another Tridintine Mass.

    Offline kaylaVeronica

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    Jansenism v. Liberalism
    « Reply #3 on: March 05, 2013, 08:57:25 AM »
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  • Priest's advice will vary based on his personality and I'm sure, the sort of sin he hears about most often in the confessional. When the priest is speaking on serious Catholic teaching, that must be followed. When he's speaking more on what he thinks are "best practices" as a Catholic, there is a little more leeway.

    Maybe it would be a good idea to socialize with the folks there a little more. This would likely either confirm or deny the assumptions you've made based on their clothing (which could just be incidental).
    May the most holy, most sacred, most adorable,
    most incomprehensible and ineffable Name of God
    be forever praised, blessed, loved, adored
    and glorified in Heaven, on earth,
    and under the earth,
    by all the creatures of God,
    and by the Sacred Heart

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Jansenism v. Liberalism
    « Reply #4 on: March 05, 2013, 10:08:33 AM »
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  • Sounds like a made-up story to me.


    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #5 on: March 05, 2013, 10:19:27 AM »
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  • Quote from: Odalia
    I have just arrived on this board and I'm called a liar.


    Someone who suggests being devoutly Catholic saying the rosary, not drinking and smoking and watching TV, and being sede or SSPX, then has the result of causing ѕυιcιdєs, mental breakdowns, joining pedophile rings, and of course, chronic unemployment.

    You suggest one leads to the other.

    You say you have a horror of "holier than thou" but go to a "holier than thou" congregation.

    Your story doesn't add up.

    Quote
    Out of respect for the family I didn't give any names but I could. Do I have to call up witnesses?
    You see what I mean wonderful charitable humble traditional Catholics!


    When you tell a story like that you shouldn't be surprised that people doubt it.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #6 on: March 05, 2013, 10:24:48 AM »
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  • Let's just review the story:

    First she says this:

    Quote from: Odalia
    I finally found a monastery where the priest offers the traditional Mass and teachings.I have been going there for three years now I have been going there for three years now but I'm increasingly worried that his sermons although generally very good tend towards Jansenism. He says things like real Catholics don't drink, smoke or dance.This is Puritanism not Catholicism.


    then she says this:

    Quote
    When I write the family history out like this it seems barely credible but it is all completely true. Ever since I have had a horror of people who are puritanical or holier than thou
    The priest at the monastery seems a very good genuinely, humble and charitable man but some of his followers remind me of my uncle and aunt, Pharissees


    Those stories don't mesh.  She has a horror of "people who are puritanical" but has gone to a monastery with a rigorist priest for three years.




    Offline Odalia

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    Jansenism v. Liberalism
    « Reply #7 on: March 05, 2013, 10:35:37 AM »
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  •  I went to the Church for the Mass. I was so happy when I found the Real Mass you cannot imagine. The priest is genuine, charitable and humble. He preaches about many things but the things that worry me are his tendencies towards jansenism which is a heresy.and which attracts a certain type of person in his congregation who for me are not Catholic as I have always understood it .


    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #8 on: March 05, 2013, 10:35:51 AM »
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  • Quote from: Odalia
    I am saying that Jansenism which is a heresy,


    Nowhere did you demonstrate that the family was Jansenist

    Quote
    leads to hypocrisy which leads to deviant behaviour .


    You told an unbelievable story and you expect others to take it as proof of your attack on the people of a monastery you've supposedly attended for three years, despite having a horror of puritanism and holier-than-thou people, you've gone to this same place with those kind of people for three years.

    Quote
    The Pharissees were just the same.


    The Pharisees are children of the Father of Lies.  I suspect we have some lying trolls on this board.

    Quote
    By their fruits ye shall know them.


    And yet you've gone to a rigorist monastery for three years, but just now are figuring out you think it's heretical?  But you've had a horror of such views and those kinds of people for years?

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    I am a pre VaticanII Catholic like Evelyn Waugh, Alec McGuiness..


    Alec McGuinness?

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    I remember how we were and we were not Amish!


    Those people you're talking about aren't Amish either.


    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #9 on: March 05, 2013, 10:38:27 AM »
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  • Quote from: Odalia
    jansenism which is a heresy.


    Do you know what Jansenism is?  Do you define it?

    Because it's not forgoing drinking, smoking, and TV.  It's not a heresy to forgo those things.

    I don't believe the priest says people should never drink and never smoke.

    I believe you're making this story up.

    Offline Traditional Guy 20

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    Jansenism v. Liberalism
    « Reply #10 on: March 05, 2013, 10:56:50 AM »
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  • Quote from: Odalia
    Read GK. Chesterton on smoking and drinking. He says, to paraphrase'That when a society thinks that drinking and smoking are immoral they have lost all understanding of what it means to be moral!"


    Drug and alcohol abuse leads to broken families. Gambling is a destructive vice that breaks up families.


    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #11 on: March 05, 2013, 11:06:16 AM »
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  • Quote from: Odalia
    Thank you for calling me a liar. I will offer it up.


    You said the story was incredible.  Why should I believe it?

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    It is impossible to reason with someone as uncharitable as you.


    It's impossible to reason with a made-up character who tells incredible stories too.

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    I know what Janesenism is .It is like Puritanism in that it regards the material world as intrinsically evil. It leads to dualism and gnosis.


    You can back up that claim with a source?  Or are you just making it up as you go along?

    Quote
    Drinking, smoking and dancing are not evil in themselves.


    Tea totalers who don't drink and smoke and don't attend modern dances are not Jansenists for abstaining from those things.

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    It is the ex-Puritan Counties that have banned drinking and smoking.


    Cardinal Manning favored prohibition.  Was he a Jansenist?  

    Quote
    Read GK. Chesterton on smoking and drinking. He says, to paraphrase'That when a society thinks that drinking and smoking are immoral they have lost all understanding of what it means to be moral!"


    Should a Catholic take the saints and the teaching of the Church as their authority, or someone like GK Chesterton who praised the French Revolution?

    Offline PereJoseph

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    « Reply #12 on: March 05, 2013, 11:10:55 AM »
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  • Quote from: Odalia
    I am saying that Jansenism which is a heresy,leads to hypocrisy which leads to deviant behaviour . The Pharissees were just the same.  By their fruits ye shall know them.
    I am a pre VaticanII Catholic like Evelyn Waugh, Alec McGuiness.. I remember how we were and we were not Amish!


    Odalia, welcome to the forum !  I see that you are troubled, so allow me to give some encouragement.  You are completely right about Jansenism.  Jansenism is indeed a real heresy, and its spirit is not Catholic and comes from the devil.  Don't let anybody tell you otherwise.  The reign of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary over society through public devotion and true Catholic customs (modesty, good manners, moderate enjoyment of the goods that Our Lord has made, chastity, and so forth) that celebrate Our Lord's creation in all humility and with a love for holy poverty -- certainly that must be the solution to our modern problems, not Jansenism.  Pax Christi tecuм.

    Offline sedetrad

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    « Reply #13 on: March 05, 2013, 11:13:50 AM »
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  • My troll-o-meter just exploded with Odelia's story. Her story is fiction.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #14 on: March 05, 2013, 11:15:40 AM »
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  • Quote from: PereJoseph
    Odalia, welcome to the forum !  I see that you are troubled, so allow me to give some encouragement.  You are completely right about Jansenism.  Jansenism is indeed a real heresy, and its spirit is not Catholic and comes from the devil.  


    Who said it wasn't?

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    Don't let anybody tell you otherwise.


    She equates tea-totaling with Jansenism.  That is ridiculous.

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     The reign of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary over society through public devotion and true Catholic customs (modesty, good manners, moderate enjoyment of the goods that Our Lord has made, chastity, and so forth) that celebrate Our Lord's creation in all humility and with a love for holy poverty -- certainly that must be the solution to our modern problems, not Jansenism.  Pax Christi tecuм.


    PereJoseph, this forum is being targeted by trolls.

    In particular one who claims the Catholic teaching of the Gospel was heavily influenced by Constantine, who speaks of Jihadists when the subject is how to be more thrify and self-sufficient, less dependent on the broader society.

    He is also someone who boasts incessantly of his wealth and family life, but seems to love to spend his time going after trad "nutters."