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Author Topic: it really permissible for corporal punishment to be administered?  (Read 4188 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: it really permissible for corporal punishment to be administered?
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2017, 08:02:28 AM »
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  •   Nobody said you were trying to convince them to beat their wives.  I clearly said that you'll never convince anyone who does not share your views to lay a hand on his wife.  

    It  was not clear to me. This passage sounded like you were saying I was trying to convince men to beat their wives. 

    "Guess what, Jaynek, nobody's really going to listen to you.  None of us who believe that we should honor our wives and not degrade them like children by beating them is going to suddenly start beating our wife.  There's no REQUIREMENT anywhere in Church teaching or in the teaching of St. Thomas to beat our wives.  So I'm not going to beat my wife. "

     Now that I've seen your explanation of what you meant I can see that I misunderstood. I apologize. 
    This is another reason why women should not argue with men.  They can't get into a heated debate without it having an emotional impact on them.  Women take things personally.  The 

    If you know that women take things personally and get upset, why aren't you taking that into consideration when dealing with women?

    I have not been arguing with you. I have been making a point to avoid addressing you at all. You have been following around my posts and saying mean untrue things about me. 

    I don't want to have discussions with you because I find it unpleasant but you aren't letting me avoid you. You are too rough for me so can't you please leave me alone. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: it really permissible for corporal punishment to be administered?
    « Reply #31 on: November 16, 2017, 10:00:49 AM »
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  • If you know that women take things personally and get upset, why aren't you taking that into consideration when dealing with women?

    I have not been arguing with you. I have been making a point to avoid addressing you at all. You have been following around my posts and saying mean untrue things about me.

    I don't want to have discussions with you because I find it unpleasant but you aren't letting me avoid you. You are too rough for me so can't you please leave me alone.

    Well, I apologize if my forceful style has caused you some grief.  As you know, however, I strongly believe that your crusade has the potential to cause great harm.  It's not personal.  As I said, if I saw you, I'd say hello with a smile.  But I know that your aggressive defense of corporal punishment by husbands against wives will condone, aid, abet, enable those Trad men who use subjection theology as an excuse to be derisive, disrespectful, and even abusive towards their wives.  You say that you've never seen any of that.  Well, I have.  And I know how they're going to react to your posts ... by giving themselves and each other high fives over your defense, as they see it, of their abusive behavior.  Heck, we even saw that with a couple of those guys on that Anonymous thread.  They were exulting over your posts.  I have seen way too many women suffering greatly with such men ... to the point of even questioning their faith, or at the very least their allegiance to Traditional Catholicism.  Consequently, I am going to set myself very forcefully against this position.  Now, if I agreed with it in principle -- which I don't -- even then I would ask you to tone it down.  In addition, don't you realize that, when Trad Catholics start condoning wife-beating in principle, it makes us look really bad to those outside our little circle.  If there's someone who might otherwise be inclined to look into Traditional Catholicism, he might get turned off by this kind of stuff and run the other way.  I know, your objection is that truth is truth and it doesn't matter who gets turned off.  To a point, yes.  But there are considerations of prudence where it comes to the presentation of that truth.  We don't defend the truth just for truth's sake.  Truth is truth whether we defend it or not.  We defend it because we desire to bring others to it and, to that end, it's very imprudent to aggressively defend corporal punishment against wives.  You know that even if someone agrees to it in principle it would be sinful to practice due to prudential considerations -- you'd end up destroying the family, in jail, etc.  So it's wrong and sinful to do this ... if just because it's incredibly imprudent.  Likewise, it's wrong to go on a crusade defending this kind of behavior because it's imprudent vis-a-vis how it would reflect upon Traditional Catholicism.  You argue that it's because you're fighting against feminism and upholding the male prerogative to be superior to women ... but the advocation of corporal punishment is not necessary to make that case.  You can make the case against feminism in other ways.


    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: it really permissible for corporal punishment to be administered?
    « Reply #32 on: November 16, 2017, 10:28:41 AM »
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  • ...

    I don't want to have discussions with you because I find it unpleasant but you aren't letting me avoid you. You are too rough for me so can't you please leave me alone.
    Lad, you're reading more than a little "stalky" and "harrassy"

    You won't do it, will you?

    She asked you to leave her be, so leave her be. 

    Don't hit them, but "no" means "yes"?

    You're the very kind of creature you describe, and what's alarming is you're very "good" at it.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: it really permissible for corporal punishment to be administered?
    « Reply #33 on: November 16, 2017, 10:39:27 AM »
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  • Lad, you're reading more than a little "stalky" and "harrassy"

    You won't do it, will you?

    She asked you to leave her be, so leave her be.

    Don't hit them, but "no" means "yes"?

    You're the very kind of creature you describe, and what's alarming is you're very "good" at it.

    And, DZ, you're reading more than a little "loopy" and "druggy".  Your posts are nearly incoherent ... to the point where I had to ask you at one point if you're a native speaker of English.

    Read my previous response.  If someone were on here, say, blaspheming Our Lady and requesting that he be "left alone", I would not comply.  For every post he made attacking Our Blessed Mother, I would respond.  Similarly, I believe that Jaynek is causing harm with her posts on this issue.  Very much like a woman, you're making this personal.  It's not personal.

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: it really permissible for corporal punishment to be administered?
    « Reply #34 on: November 16, 2017, 10:49:19 AM »
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  • And, DZ, you're reading more than a little "loopy" and "druggy".  Your posts are nearly incoherent ... to the point where I had to ask you at one point if you're a native speaker of English.

    Read my previous response.  If someone were on here, say, blaspheming Our Lady and requesting that he be "left alone", I would not comply.  For every post he made attacking Our Blessed Mother, I would respond.  Similarly, I believe that Jaynek is causing harm with her posts on this issue.  Very much like a woman, you're making this personal.  It's not personal.

    No, that wasn't personal. This is personal.

    You're a lying sack of shit hypocrite, consumed by his own tacitly assumed innerancy at least as regards all things Catholic.

    There, that was personal and, hopefully, "coherent and clear" enough for your Lordship, savior of the universe.
    "Lord, have mercy".


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: it really permissible for corporal punishment to be administered?
    « Reply #35 on: November 16, 2017, 10:51:24 AM »
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  • Well, I apologize if my forceful style has caused you some grief.  As you know, however, I strongly believe that your crusade has the potential to cause great harm.  It's not personal.  As I said, if I saw you, I'd say hello with a smile. 
    Thank you. I accept your apology. I'd say hello and smile too. I would much rather get along with you than have all this hostility between us.  You seem smart and interesting and these are qualities I like. 

    There is something I hope you will think about. You are concerned that my words encourage men to be abusive. I suggest you also consider what your example does. Because I have written things you disagree with, I feel like they you have been, in effect, trying to verbally beat me into submission. If you think that men should not hurt women, then it would be good to show it by not hurting my feelings. 

    You could make the same points without denouncing me as a misogynist with psychological problems. This argument from your last post is one I find very compelling:

    It In addition, don't you realize that, when Trad Catholics start condoning wife-beating in principle, it makes us look really bad to those outside our little circle.  If there's someone who might otherwise be inclined to look into Traditional Catholicism, he might get turned off by this kind of stuff and run the other way.  I know, your objection is that truth is truth and it doesn't matter who gets turned off.  To a point, yes.  But there are considerations of prudence where it comes to the presentation of that truth.  We don't defend the truth just for truth's sake.  Truth is truth whether we defend it or not.  We defend it because we desire to bring others to it and, to that end, it's very imprudent to aggressively defend corporal punishment against wives.  
    I don't recall this point coming up before but it makes slot of sense to me. I need to rethink how I talk about this subject. 

    Let's be at peace with each other. Just remember that I respond better to reason than to force. 

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: it really permissible for corporal punishment to be administered?
    « Reply #36 on: November 16, 2017, 10:55:18 AM »
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  • Lad, you're reading more than a little "stalky" and "harrassy"

    You won't do it, will you?

    She asked you to leave her be, so leave her be.

    Don't hit them, but "no" means "yes"?

    You're the very kind of creature you describe, and what's alarming is you're very "good" at it.
    It's OK, DZP; he apologized. 
    I really appreciate how protective you are. Thank you. 

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    • "Lord, have mercy."
    Re: it really permissible for corporal punishment to be administered?
    « Reply #37 on: November 16, 2017, 11:05:46 AM »
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  • It's OK, DZP;

    >> No ma'am, it is not

    he apologized.

    >> As any other abuser might do that is, which is not at all. Mark words, he'll do it again, and then keep saying "sorry", then do it again, for as long as others let him.


    I really appreciate how protective you are.

    >> Ma'am, I'll tell you again; that is an effect in this instance, and not my nature. I may no longer be a bad guy, I may no longer be a monster but, much as being a convert from an enemy camp, such as from being a Jєω, I still remember what being one is like, and what they "smell" like.

    >> I'm not a good Catholic, if I am one at all. I'm a "filthy trashy sinner" as one sadly still most dear once said. I'm no scholar, and I'm often also otherwise wrong.

    >> So, don't appreciate an accident as something of substance, of my nature.

    >> Perhaps this is another instance of hating most a thing of another which is most loathed in oneself; but, make no mistake, and again mark words, it is there either way.

    >> I'd rather know more of good than evil but, sadly, this is still not yet the case. I know bad, cause I've been and still may be so, much as any other criminal.

    ...
    "Lord, have mercy".


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: it really permissible for corporal punishment to be administered?
    « Reply #38 on: November 16, 2017, 11:14:30 AM »
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  • Quote
    Ma'am, I'll tell you again; that is an effect in this instance, and not my nature. I may no longer be a bad guy, I may no longer be a monster but, much as being a convert from an enemy camp, such as from being a Jєω, I still remember what being one is like, and what they "smell" like. 

    >> I'm not a good Catholic, if I am one at all. I'm a "filthy trashy sinner" as one sadly still most dear once said. I'm no scholar, and I'm often also otherwise wrong. 
    My family could tell you that reformed bad guys are my favourite kind of hero. 
     
    I have seen a lot of instances of you being sweet and kind. That is how I think of you. 

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: it really permissible for corporal punishment to be administered?
    « Reply #39 on: November 16, 2017, 11:17:10 AM »
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  • My family could tell you that reformed bad guys are my favourite kind of hero.
     
    I have seen a lot of instances of you being sweet and kind. That is how I think of you.
    Which is a very NON-тαℓмυdic, very Catholic assessment ma'am. 

    Thanks regardless.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: it really permissible for corporal punishment to be administered?
    « Reply #40 on: November 16, 2017, 11:29:55 AM »
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  • Thank you. I accept your apology. I'd say hello and smile too. I would much rather get along with you than have all this hostility between us.  You seem smart and interesting and these are qualities I like.

    There is something I hope you will think about. You are concerned that my words encourage men to be abusive. I suggest you also consider what your example does. Because I have written things you disagree with, I feel like they you have been, in effect, trying to verbally beat me into submission. If you think that men should not hurt women, then it would be good to show it by not hurting my feelings.

    You are right, and I am sorry.  I think that the relative anonymity of the forum makes it so I don't often consider the person on the other end ... i.e. the fact that you're a woman and that my harsh tone might hurt your feelings.  I apologize for that and I'll make every effort to adjust my tone.  I'm just used to going at it hard with some of these guys, especially in the Crisis section.  I guess it might be like a woman coming on to a football field to play against the men.  I'm used to hitting hard but now have to think about hitting a particular person because she's a woman.  And I apologize for the statements I made regarding your motivations ... though I didn't mean to suggest psychological "problems" per se, but rather a more general overreaction, due to emotional reasons, against feminism ... a pattern I have seen on many other issues as well.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: it really permissible for corporal punishment to be administered?
    « Reply #41 on: November 16, 2017, 11:36:33 AM »
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  • Thank you, Ladislaus. I was moved to tears by your words. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: it really permissible for corporal punishment to be administered?
    « Reply #42 on: November 16, 2017, 11:46:12 AM »
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  • You're a lying sack of shit hypocrite, consumed by his own tacitly assumed innerancy at least as regards all things Catholic.

    Now, now, you shouldn't subject ladies to that kind of foul language.   :)

    You're confusing my forceful advocation of arguments and positions I believe in with "tacitly assumed inerrancy".  Obviously your hostility is spilling over from the BoD threads where I am challenging many of your deeply held beliefs.  Your convictions on these matters are just as strong, to the point that you too could be accused of "tacitly assumed inerrancy".  I think that you're threatened by the fact that I make strong arguments using reason and actual syllogisms whereas you're almost entirely going on emotion.  Yes, I'm very forceful in making my arguments, but you seem rather emotional for a man.

    Jaynek, that was the other thread where I was called a devil, a puke, a diabolical liar.  Now I'm a "lying sack of shit hypocrite".  I've been getting that kind of reaction for years, but it doesn't bother me in the slightest.  When I'm wrong, I'll admit that I'm wrong ... as I just did to you, and it doesn't bother me one way or the other.  I regularly admit mistakes.  I'm seeking the truth.  What's interesting is that on both the Sedevacantist vs. R&R and the BoD vs. Feeneyite positions, I take a middle of the road view, seeing validity to some of the arguments made both sides ... and so I get attacked violently by both sides.  I myself am a great fan of St. Augustine (even over Aquinas) -- my avatar -- and he too was of the belief that very often veritas in medio stat.  Not always, but most of the time, that turns out to be true ... usually because those on the extreme edges are their because  of there failure to make distinctions.  In college I read nearly every word written by St. Augustine in the original Latin and then was disappointed that I couldn't get more ... and I chose his name as my confirmation name.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: it really permissible for corporal punishment to be administered?
    « Reply #43 on: November 16, 2017, 11:50:52 AM »
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  • Thank you, Ladislaus. I was moved to tears by your words.

    And thank you for forgiving me.  I apologize also (and retract the statement) for calling you a liar a while ago.  See, I don't mind being corrected by a woman; I thank my wife for doing it when I'm wrong or have misbehaved.  I admit that I can get pretty hot-headed sometimes, especially when arguing for something I believe in.  I wasn't trying to put a trick question out there earlier.  I regularly use the "Socratic method" as a form of argument, especially when I sense that I've reached an impasse with someone, and I can see how that can be perceived as tricky.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: it really permissible for corporal punishment to be administered?
    « Reply #44 on: November 16, 2017, 12:02:52 PM »
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  •  What's interesting is that on both the Sedevacantist vs. R&R and the BoD vs. Feeneyite positions, I take a middle of the road view, seeing validity to some of the arguments made both sides ... and so I get attacked violently by both sides.  
    I am thankful that I don't know enough about them to express an opinion on those topics. And I am not much tempted to learn more. Those are such violent discussions. Although I know there were Saints who did it, I am not comfortable with polemical discourse.

    As for St. Augustine, he qualifies as a reformed bad guy, so, of course, I like that about him.