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Author Topic: It's Official! Archbishop Vigano conditionally consecrated !!!!!  (Read 10176 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Re: It's Official! Archbishop Vigano conditionally consecrated !!!!!
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2024, 11:36:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 05, 2024, 11:20:15 AM
    One could attempt to impute sinister motivations to +Vigano, but charity requires that we put the best possible construction on these, since it's ultimately in the internal forum that we cannot read.  I had the same reaction against those who made the same claims about Shia LaBeouf, that his conversion was "fake" ... without any evidence.  Slander/calumny is never permitted.  Detraction is permitted only when the public good requires it.  Until either Shia or +Vigano DO something that's contrary to the faith or harmful to Traditional Catholicism or to others, we must presume that they're speaking and acting in good faith ... even if we disagree with them.

    You're correct. +Vigano has DONE nothing evil (let's say since his conversion, to keep things simple) and we have NO reason, excuse, or justification for NOT giving him the benefit of the doubt.

    Traditional Catholics are a surly, cantankerous bunch, and they often have the flaw of being too negative and forgetting charity. For example, the idea that YES, you MUST give every child of God a fair chance, assuming they are good until they FORCE us to conclude otherwise. But even then, it should be with sadness and HOPE for improvement -- not anger, resentment, frustration, bitter zeal, and hurt feelings -- which we see SO MUCH OF on CathInfo and any other place you find lots of Trads.

    Read a few Lives of the Saints and see how THEY treated those who disappointed them. They prayed and sacrificed for them, had hope for their improvement/conversion, and certainly didn't forget charity, or fail to give them every possible benefit of the doubt.

    It's the classic "I've been hurt so much, I can't trust/love anymore" trope. It's incredibly sad, but such is the situation.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: It's Official! Archbishop Vigano conditionally consecrated !!!!!
    « Reply #46 on: January 05, 2024, 11:44:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on January 05, 2024, 11:36:42 AM

    It's the classic "I've been hurt so much, I can't trust/love anymore" trope. It's incredibly sad, but such is the situation.
    So now you're belittling those who have trust issues when it comes bishops coming from the Novus Ordo.  How charitable of you! Perhaps you need to take a good long look in that mirror.
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    Offline Simeon

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    Re: It's Official! Archbishop Vigano conditionally consecrated !!!!!
    « Reply #47 on: January 05, 2024, 11:57:40 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on January 05, 2024, 09:22:40 AM
    I have confirmed this news story as well. Status: TRUE.


    I believe you, and I now believe it's true. One of the most interesting developments in recent memory. 

    Certainly it is worth pondering that he chose Bp. Williamson, and not any of the SV outlets. I believe they would have consecrated them if he had asked them. Very interesting indeed.....:popcorn:
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    Offline Simeon

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    Re: It's Official! Archbishop Vigano conditionally consecrated !!!!!
    « Reply #48 on: January 05, 2024, 12:01:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 05, 2024, 09:25:37 AM
    Yes, as I said, I'm not too hung up about the WHY, the various explanations for WHY Bergoglio isn't the pope.  As far as I'm concerned, if someone wanted to float the theory about Paul VI being drugged, chained up in a dungeon, and replaced by a big-eared crooked-nosed double, while I might not buy it, I'm not going to spend too much time debating it.  Nor do I like to debate the "5 Opinions" that much.  I believe that we'll never resolve the HOWs or the WHYs until Church authority is restored and the Church resolve it.

    Yup. Agree. There's no doubt in my mind that we are awaiting a Divine intervention, but in the Order of Providence the Lord usually (if not always?) acts through secondary causes. So wherever there are valid Holy Orders, Orthodox enclaves inclusive, we may find future Divine instruments.

    Overall? veddy interesting...

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    Offline Simeon

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    Re: It's Official! Archbishop Vigano conditionally consecrated !!!!!
    « Reply #49 on: January 05, 2024, 12:12:32 PM »
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    • On a positive note - a very positive note indeed - Vigano is now a role model I can stand behind on a very crucial issue. He was not afraid to question the validity of his novus ordo "consecration," and not afraid of the ramifications of seeking valid episcopal Orders. 

    This swan dive will send huge shock waves through indult-land, where invalid orders is the big fat giant enormous colossal elephant in the room.

    Of course, this is all the more reason to go public in a big way. He has done nothing shameful or clandestine in this. He has done the right thing, the thing required of honesty and Catholic integrity. It is a candlestick that should not be hidden under a bushel. 

    Please communicate that thought to Bp. Williamson, Matthew. 
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: It's Official! Archbishop Vigano conditionally consecrated !!!!!
    « Reply #50 on: January 05, 2024, 12:39:02 PM »
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    • If the reports are accurate, there is absolutely no reason for slyness. He needs to come out slugging and hit the NO fake church hard without cessation.  

    I’m still puzzled by the fact that Bergoglio has yet to attack him. Why hasn’t he?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: It's Official! Archbishop Vigano conditionally consecrated !!!!!
    « Reply #51 on: January 05, 2024, 12:45:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on January 05, 2024, 11:44:25 AM
    So now you're belittling those who have trust issues when it comes bishops coming from the Novus Ordo.  How charitable of you! Perhaps you need to take a good long look in that mirror.
    I don't think Matthew meant it that way. He's merely stating that's how it actually is. IOW, we actually do indeed have trust issues with bishops coming from the NO, it's only normal. At least that's how I take it.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: It's Official! Archbishop Vigano conditionally consecrated !!!!!
    « Reply #52 on: January 05, 2024, 01:12:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: Simeon on January 05, 2024, 12:12:32 PM
    On a positive note - a very positive note indeed - Vigano is now a role model I can stand behind on a very crucial issue. He was not afraid to question the validity of his novus ordo "consecration," and not afraid of the ramifications of seeking valid episcopal Orders.

    This swan dive will send huge shock waves through indult-land, where invalid orders is the big fat giant enormous colossal elephant in the room.

    Of course, this is all the more reason to go public in a big way. He has done nothing shameful or clandestine in this. He has done the right thing, the thing required of honesty and Catholic integrity. It is a candlestick that should not be hidden under a bushel.

    Please communicate that thought to Bp. Williamson, Matthew.
    Yes, until it becomes officially public "in a big way" (ie. not just on CathInfo), everyone in NO land will still think he is NO-consecrated, including his "brother bishops".  Until then every single one of them will still think their consecrations are valid.  What is he waiting for?   
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    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: It's Official! Archbishop Vigano conditionally consecrated !!!!!
    « Reply #53 on: January 05, 2024, 01:15:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on January 05, 2024, 12:39:02 PM

    If the reports are accurate, there is absolutely no reason for slyness. He needs to come out slugging and hit the NO fake church hard without cessation. 

    I’m still puzzled by the fact that Bergoglio has yet to attack him. Why hasn’t he?

    His attack would probably be beneficial, since it would give Abp. Vigano greater visibility.

    This might be why he's said nothing.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: It's Official! Archbishop Vigano conditionally consecrated !!!!!
    « Reply #54 on: January 05, 2024, 01:16:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on January 05, 2024, 12:45:47 PM
    I don't think Matthew meant it that way. He's merely stating that's how it actually is. IOW, we actually do indeed have trust issues with bishops coming from the NO, it's only normal. At least that's how I take it.
    Then he (along with his bud Lad) needs to quit judging those of us who are not on the Vigano train as "hating" him. 
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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: It's Official! Archbishop Vigano conditionally consecrated !!!!!
    « Reply #55 on: January 05, 2024, 01:16:43 PM »
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    • Good news for the New Year!
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    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: It's Official! Archbishop Vigano conditionally consecrated !!!!!
    « Reply #56 on: January 05, 2024, 01:24:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Simeon on January 05, 2024, 11:57:40 AM
    I believe you, and I now believe it's true. One of the most interesting developments in recent memory.

    Certainly it is worth pondering that he chose Bp. Williamson, and not any of the SV outlets. I believe they would have consecrated them if he had asked them. Very interesting indeed.....:popcorn:
    It is curious.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: It's Official! Archbishop Vigano conditionally consecrated !!!!!
    « Reply #57 on: January 05, 2024, 01:28:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on January 05, 2024, 12:39:02 PM
    I’m still puzzled by the fact that Bergoglio has yet to attack him. Why hasn’t he?

    That's very simple.  Due to the fact that +Vigano became famous for exposing Bergoglio's coverup of McCarrick's predations, excommunicating +Vigano would likely be construed by the general public as retribution for exposing the coverup, as a continuation of the coverup, etc.  Just imagine a news story written by MSM if Bergoglio were to formally excommunicate +Vigano.  There's no doubt that the story would recall the McCarrick situation and a lot people reading it (not being theologically astute) would take this move as retribution or punishment for exposing pedophilia.  That would simply not play very well in the media for Bergoglio to take that step.

    Let's say I'm a bishop who's covering up for predators, and a priest comes out and exposes my coverup.  Some years later, the priest says that I'm a heretic and apostate, and not the bishop of my diocese.  Now I go ahead and excommunicate the priest for those statements.  General public doesn't understand the theological basis for the excommunication.  Their takeaway would only be:  1) priest exposes bishop's crimes.  2) bishop excommunicates priest.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: It's Official! Archbishop Vigano conditionally consecrated !!!!!
    « Reply #58 on: January 05, 2024, 01:31:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: Simeon on January 05, 2024, 11:57:40 AM
    I believe you, and I now believe it's true. One of the most interesting developments in recent memory.

    Certainly it is worth pondering that he chose Bp. Williamson, and not any of the SV outlets. I believe they would have consecrated them if he had asked them. Very interesting indeed.....:popcorn:

    I just think they had been in contact generally.  I'm not sure when the conditional consecration actually happened.  Perhaps it was before +Vigano had come up as a Bergoglio-vacantist (since he denies the broader term sedevacantist), but I imagine that if he did not fully embrace sedevacantism, the various SV bishops would probably not have consecrated him.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: It's Official! Archbishop Vigano conditionally consecrated !!!!!
    « Reply #59 on: January 05, 2024, 04:00:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on January 05, 2024, 01:16:36 PM
    Then he (along with his bud Lad) needs to quit judging those of us who are not on the Vigano train as "hating" him.

    I'm not judging you.

    Interesting you use the words "judging" and "hating". You also need to take a long look in the mirror. This is not the first thread you've come out swinging at me in the last few days. You seem to almost hate me -- at least you're taking all my words in the worst possible light, which isn't good. It shows what you think of me right now.

    I just said it was "sad" that so many Trads have such a horrible track record of abuse, that they are utterly unable to trust anyone anymore, including good Trad priests and bishops. I've seen it many times, both on and off of this forum.

    And each and every time, it's SAD. That's a simple fact. It's not a question of sin or judgment. It's simply a sad situation when anyone becomes unable to love, or trust, again. Don't you agree? It's absolutely tragic.

    I never said OR implied that it's their fault they have arrived at such a state. Merely that it's sad. And by sad I mean just that: SAD and tragic.


    P.S. I'm male, not female. I have only been stating principles here. I'm teaching the world, not judging this or that individual. I haven't criticized a SINGLE person or name with regards to Vigano. I haven't even named anyone by hint, innuendo, or indirectly. Go ahead, I'll wait while you go find such a case. I'm sure you won't find one.
    I'm arguing on the level of principles, morality, and doctrine here. It's usually females who find the need to make absolutely everything personal. (this also happens with men who act like women -- but I digress).
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