Author Topic: Is the Traditional Latin Mass in the U.S. an elitist thing? (Read 4164 times)

Geremia · « **on:** November 24, 2014, 09:26:46 AM »

Is the traditional Latin Mass mostly a suburbanite, neocon, white people's thing?

My grandmother-in-law from Mexico attended a FSSP Mass in the States, and she liked the Mass, but was appalled by the congregation, who struck her as aloof, unfriendly, and, I'd say, "WASPy." My wife, too, thinks similarly.

I also have a friend, who lives in poverty and embraces it, who left an ICRSS church because she thought the congregation was snobbish and unwelcoming of materially poor people; she now attends a Novus (dis)Ordo, even though she considers it not as Catholic. She judges the Mass by the fruits of the people who comprise the congregation; i.e., she thinks something is wrong with the Mass just because the congregation doesn't appear to her to have good fruits. Is this a fair judgment? To me, the congregation matters little compared to whether the priest and the Mass are theologically sound. Should I care more about who comprises the congregation? Apparently St. Isidore wrote about how the congregation does matter.

Also, keep in mind: I have never heard men making these criticisms; just women.

So, why does it seem the TLM does not attract more poor people or people of other races? Is the TLM an elitist thing?

Iuvenalis · « **Reply #1 on:** November 24, 2014, 09:41:00 AM »

I have seen both (friendly and unfriendly) TLM congregations.

I won't name any names, but I saw an independent chapel I'd characterize as downright paranoid. Something like the interrogation I've hear the SSPV dispenses (which I have heard but never experienced SSPV firsthand, but at least one former SSPV person verified to me "we do that")

Another TLM on the other hand is much friendlier.

I don't know the details of their experience but it is possible that what they experienced though was an attempt to chit chat before Mass.

No one does that amongst trads. No one start chatting about little Johnny or their new roast recipe until they are *out* the door.

NO types start gladhanding and jabbering before and right after, sometimes a little in line for communion just for good measure.

If this was how they started the conversation, they probably got shut down.

Immaculata001 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 24, 2014, 01:50:26 PM »

There are people who are approaching "traditionalism" as just another appealing, reactionary movement.The Mass isn't so much religious practice for them as it is an accessory to their political ideologies. People who are attracted to if for the wrong reasons show very little interior conversion and they use the Mass and related media to act out their ideas about race and society.

This is extremely bad error because if you're going to express racial disdain for fellow Catholics you do not know -- at holy places and maybe even during worship -- you've committed a sin and may serve to turn people away from attending Mass.

So to answer your question, yes, "traditionalists" are very alienating to non-Whites and others at Mass sites in the US. What is incredibly interesting is that I have not had the same experience in Europe, where I've always been able to find the Mass. The proves that it's part of Americans' very provincial obsession with race...

In turn, I generally stay away from traditionalists at Mass, and even avoid saying, "Hello." I've encountered open hostility and true ugliness -- on Sunday mornings, no less -- that I don't want to have anymore encounters. I would rather focus on Mass, prayer, and then just leave. I just don't have time for anything that is of no spiritual benefit, and I've found that Americans' ideas about race are meaningless to my interior conversion.

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #3 on:** November 24, 2014, 02:27:02 PM »

Quote from: Immaculata001

In turn, I generally stay away from traditionalists at Mass, and even avoid saying, "Hello." I've encountered open hostility and true ugliness -- on Sunday mornings, no less -- that I don't want to have anymore encounters. I would rather focus on Mass, prayer, and then just leave. I just don't have time for anything that is of no spiritual benefit, and I've found that Americans' ideas about race are meaningless to my interior conversion.

Pot meet kettle. Kettle meet pot.

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #4 on:** November 24, 2014, 02:49:17 PM »

Quote from: Geremia

My grandmother-in-law from Mexico attended a FSSP Mass in the States, and she liked the Mass, but was appalled by the congregation, who struck her as aloof, unfriendly, and, I'd say, "WASPy." My wife, too, thinks similarly.

Your in-laws and your wife must be reminded to turn off their Extra Sensory Perception when they attend Mass. Tell them it's okay to read minds of people a hundred feet away who they have never met but not okay at Mass.

That way their minds will be focused on the Mass and, ideally, they should focus on prepatory prayers so they can receive Holy Communion in the right frame of mind.

Immaculata001 · « **Reply #5 on:** November 24, 2014, 03:14:32 PM »

Quote from: Capt McQuigg

Quote from: Immaculata001
In turn, I generally stay away from traditionalists at Mass, and even avoid saying, "Hello." I've encountered open hostility and true ugliness -- on Sunday mornings, no less -- that I don't want to have anymore encounters. I would rather focus on Mass, prayer, and then just leave. I just don't have time for anything that is of no spiritual benefit, and I've found that Americans' ideas about race are meaningless to my interior conversion.

Pot meet kettle. Kettle meet pot.

Of course you're right. I should go to the social hall and bump elbows with people who see MLK day as an opportunity to see how many times they can through the word "nigger" around. I find it incredibly conducive to contemplation.

My prayer life and Mass attendance have improved dramatically since I just ignore people with their race and political obsessions. I'll continue doing just the same...

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #6 on:** November 24, 2014, 03:46:14 PM »

Quote from: Immaculata001

Quote from: Capt McQuigg
Quote from: Immaculata001
In turn, I generally stay away from traditionalists at Mass, and even avoid saying, "Hello." I've encountered open hostility and true ugliness -- on Sunday mornings, no less -- that I don't want to have anymore encounters. I would rather focus on Mass, prayer, and then just leave. I just don't have time for anything that is of no spiritual benefit, and I've found that Americans' ideas about race are meaningless to my interior conversion.

Pot meet kettle. Kettle meet pot.

Of course you're right. I should go to the social hall and bump elbows with people who see MLK day as an opportunity to see how many times they can through the word "nigger" around. I find it incredibly conducive to contemplation.

My prayer life and Mass attendance have improved dramatically since I just ignore people with their race and political obsessions. I'll continue doing just the same...

You not only make up lies about other people but you actually believe them.

Amazing.

Your church celebrates MLK day?

Immaculata001 · « **Reply #7 on:** November 24, 2014, 03:57:08 PM »

May God bless you.

Where did you seem me type that my church, "celebrates MLK day" ? Is it far-fetched to believe that around MLK Day older, White American Catholics -- in the South -- might feel free to discuss their opinions about MLK day over coffee in the social hall, especially with no visible minorities around? Is it also far-fetch to believe that one might have let the word "nigger" slip is I was walking into the room -- and no, not referring to me, but to whatever they had been discussing? What would it be logical for someone to conclude that if people became red-faced and silent as I went to use the bathroom that, yes, there were some derogatory comments made about Blacks? The best remedy to the situation, from my perspective, is to avoid the social hall and the people in it. I also avoid certain people so that I don't have to keep repeating,"Hello" when they pretend not to hear me. These are other peoples' problems and not things I want to deal with at 9:00, after I've prayed a rosary.

If these things are not only possible but probable, it's not appropriate to call someone a "liar." That is a sin.

You're reflexively angry because you are aware that I'm a minority, and you believe that I must have some all-permeating hostility to Whites -- I don't. I actually believe American Blacks are more racist than Whites. But the reality is like most people in the world, I DO NOT CARE ABOUT RACE. I'm sick of Americans' obsession with it -- both Blacks and Whites -- and I want to stay away from people who are so obsessed.

I positively RUN from American Blacks who use the Michael Brown hysteria as a platform to voice their hatred of Whites over a history that Blacks never lived, and how they are so entitled because of it. I don't have time for this national obsession.

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #8 on:** November 24, 2014, 04:25:58 PM »

Immaculata,

You should pray for MLK. If there are whites calling him the "n" word, something I highly doubt because there are far too many criticisms of MLK and his faults to rely on racial slurs, even MLK would prefer that to what he is probably going through post-mortem. MLK denied the Virgin Birth, he was also a protestant and on the night before he was killed, he bedded two women, neither one his wife, so he died in a state of mortal sin.

Pray also for those you think of so poorly as exhibited in your posts. If there actually are cantankerous souls using foul language and looking at you askance, these souls need your prayers, you can still ignore them while in their presence but ignore not your prayers for them. Not this month, mind you, because the month of November prayers should be strictly for the holy souls.

As for your status, I did not know you were a minority.

And you do not know if I'm actually in a majority status.

Neither of these points actually matters, unless someone wants to engage in self-idolatry or if someone is bad-willed. The bad-willed person uses race as a tool and hopes to injure others.

Immaculata001 · « **Reply #9 on:** November 24, 2014, 08:40:54 PM »

I don't understand why you're focusing on MLK. I have no opinion of him except to say that the Civil Rights movement was inevitable, and he was not the only leader. He was also a Protestant, so IM less inclined to pray for him.

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #10 on:** November 24, 2014, 08:53:04 PM »

Quote from: Immaculata001

I don't understand why you're focusing on MLK. I have no opinion of him except to say that the Civil Rights movement was inevitable, and he was not the only leader. He was also a Protestant, so IM less inclined to pray for him.

You brought him up first in your accusation of your fellow parishioners. I hope that helps jog your memory.

You are probably correct in concluding that any prayers for him may be considered wasted prayers.

Immaculate, do you assist at an indult?

PerEvangelicaDicta · « **Reply #11 on:** November 24, 2014, 11:25:11 PM »

The trad church we attended for many years is southern, in a very poor neighborhood, and the Haitians and Latinos easily equal the Europeans in number. The pastor doesn't tolerate gossip and has a good ear to the ground. He will distribute Catholic writings about it, and address the faithful in the social hall when needed, if he notices an uptick. The result is quite positive. It is the duty of a priest to be our father at all times, not just for sacramental administration.

Our family does it's duty when there is pot luck, or catechism, etc, but manage the familiarity part. It always breeds contempt.

Croix de Fer · « **Reply #12 on:** November 25, 2014, 12:02:59 AM »

Quote from: Geremia

Is the TLM an elitist thing?

No, it's a seeking Truth thing.

ggreg · « **Reply #13 on:** November 25, 2014, 04:18:46 AM »

I certainly hope so.

Who would want to be anything but elite in modern day America?

Immaculata001 · « **Reply #14 on:** November 25, 2014, 12:15:08 PM »

Quote from: Capt McQuigg

Quote from: Immaculata001
I don't understand why you're focusing on MLK. I have no opinion of him except to say that the Civil Rights movement was inevitable, and he was not the only leader. He was also a Protestant, so IM less inclined to pray for him.

You brought him up first in your accusation of your fellow parishioners. I hope that helps jog your memory.

You are probably correct in concluding that any prayers for him may be considered wasted prayers.

Immaculate, do you assist at an indult?

I don't think we should give any personal info on the internet...