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Author Topic: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?  (Read 71202 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
« Reply #930 on: December 18, 2021, 06:22:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: Dankward on December 17, 2021, 11:25:56 PM
    He really seems to be a bright guy in some regards, I definitely agree on that.

    This makes me wonder even more how he can fall for something like flat Earth.

    Let's just start at the basics again. I won't answer to any other point in this thread except anything regarding the following. This video debunks flat Earth. You can't explain our observations he references in the video using the flat Earth model. Every other point you bring up in support of flat Earth is moot if this single counterargument is true.


    Otherwise this will just be a constant waste of time in a pointless discussion filled with "whataboutism" with one strawman argument hunting the next.

    Dankward (or anyone for that matter),

    That's a pretty good "cut to the chase." So has no one here responded to this? I'm sure as hell not wading through 62 pages. 

    Thanks,

    DR
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #931 on: December 18, 2021, 07:41:12 AM »
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    • That Prof. Dave guy is one of the first channels that comes up when searching YouTube and he has millions of views on the subject, while FE channels are banned left and right. Seems suspicious.

    Also, why are we not addressing the most basic proofs such as the tests PROVING there is no visible curve from ground tests? The video Lad posted PROVES that there is NO curve with a visibility of 500 miles at 32,000 feet. Yet the moon keeps getting pointed at as the end-all, be-all argument in the face of these.

    Could a concave object set in the Firmament explain why the face of the moon is visible at different angles?
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #932 on: December 18, 2021, 07:43:36 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on December 18, 2021, 06:22:26 AM
    Dankward (or anyone for that matter),

    That's a pretty good "cut to the chase." So has no one here responded to this? I'm sure as hell not wading through 62 pages.

    Thanks,

    DR

    You will find something to do with this video in Errors of the Modern world, p22

    https://www.cathinfo.com/fighting-errors-in-the-modern-world/thoughts-on-why-i-see-the-flat-earth-theory-is-likely-a-disinformation-campaign/285/
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #933 on: December 18, 2021, 08:08:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on December 18, 2021, 06:22:26 AM
    Dankward (or anyone for that matter),

    That's a pretty good "cut to the chase." So has no one here responded to this? I'm sure as hell not wading through 62 pages.

    When you replied, the post had been here for all of seven hours, most of which almost all of us were likely sleeping.  Perhaps the same vid was posted earlier in the lengthy thread?  If so, it is understandable that some or even most people missed it, etc., as life rolls on outside CI, no matter how popular a discussion seems to be.  I will watch it later, but there's only so much daylight and I gotta cut firewood and take care of real life obligations.
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #934 on: December 18, 2021, 08:17:38 AM »
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    • Interesting idea on how the phases of the moon may work over a Flat Earth. Given that the sun and moon are set IN the Firmament (not floating IN the atmosphere), and as there are waters above the Firmament, the submersion of the moon may explain the various phases as opposed to the "shadow" of the globe.

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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #935 on: December 18, 2021, 08:34:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on December 18, 2021, 08:17:38 AM
    Interesting idea on how the phases of the moon may work over a Flat Earth.

    Unfortunately, I don't think any anti-FE-ers really care what ideas or evidence is offered.

    FWIW, the idea that a spherical moon sits there locked in the same exact position while everything else throughout the entire supposed system -- including the system itself -- is moving, spinning, orbiting, wobbling, etc. is utterly absurd.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #936 on: December 18, 2021, 09:40:02 AM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on December 18, 2021, 08:34:33 AM
    Unfortunately, I don't think any anti-FE-ers really care what ideas or evidence is offered.

    FWIW, the idea that a spherical moon sits there locked in the same exact position while everything else throughout the entire supposed system -- including the system itself -- is moving, spinning, orbiting, wobbling, etc. is utterly absurd.

    Absolutely.  It's got to be locked and synchronized TO THE SECOND or else the face of the moon would have changed significantly over the past few hundred years.  I find that to be ridiculously absurd.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #937 on: December 18, 2021, 09:44:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on December 18, 2021, 08:17:38 AM
    Interesting idea on how the phases of the moon may work over a Flat Earth. Given that the sun and moon are set IN the Firmament (not floating IN the atmosphere), and as there are waters above the Firmament, the submersion of the moon may explain the various phases as opposed to the "shadow" of the globe.

    So the globers argue that the curved shadow on the moon indicates that it must be cast by something that's curved.  That's nonsense.  Moon itself is alleged to be spherical so that shadows would be curved depending on the angle, etc.  But the video you posted shows it with a cocave (vs. convex) model the the moon.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #938 on: December 18, 2021, 09:47:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on December 18, 2021, 07:41:12 AM
    That Prof. Dave guy is one of the first channels that comes up when searching YouTube and he has millions of views on the subject, while FE channels are banned left and right. Seems suspicious.

    Also, why are we not addressing the most basic proofs such as the tests PROVING there is no visible curve from ground tests? The video Lad posted PROVES that there is NO curve with a visibility of 500 miles at 32,000 feet. Yet the moon keeps getting pointed at as the end-all, be-all argument in the face of these.

    Could a concave object set in the Firmament explain why the face of the moon is visible at different angles?

    Already in the little picture on the video it has the moon as a flat disc standing upright and vertical, and like 2 feet above their heads ... which is an absurd strawman.  I'm still waiting for an honest argument from a glober.  Just turn it horizontal, put it much higher up above people's heads and rotate it around.  Imagine a dinner plate face down moving in circles above your head.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #939 on: December 18, 2021, 09:55:52 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 18, 2021, 09:47:12 AM
    Already in the little picture on the video it has the moon as a flat disc standing upright and vertical ... which is absurd.

    The "disk moon" was just one possibility examined in the video as an explanation for why, in a FE world, people see the same side of the moon from different directions or places on earth.

    Guess one should not consider any possibilities that Lad might deem "absurd".

    So a flat disk is "absurd", but a slightly concave disc, yeah, that's a possibility worth considering.

    You totally have me convinced.

    The JTolan video says exactly what, Lad? It's mostly the narrator rambling. In the end he makes a drawing that doesn't correspond to details he said earlier in the video. Look at about 10:29 and put the edge of a sheet of paper up to his data. The data has a curve; it's not flat. He says that data goes out 70-100 miles, which for the globe would be consistent with the curve shown  And there is the question of how he collects the data, how he enters it into his software, and what the software does with it (that he may or may not know). Is JTolan really credible? I don't know. In another video where he claimed he could see Mt. Shaste from a few hundred miles away, and others say he was wrong and probably was not looking at Mt. Shasta. But none of those details matter to you. You just gush over the JTolan video.

    And at the same time, pass over other, very simple issues with your FE model. Please, explain how days become longer and shorter? And in particular, how the arctic can be in darkness while places in the southern hemisphere have 17+ hr days.

    And BTW, "Professor Dave" is a chemist. He does get a few things wrong outside chemistry.
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #940 on: December 18, 2021, 10:00:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 18, 2021, 09:44:13 AM
    So the globers argue that the curved shadow on the moon indicates that it must be cast by something that's curved.  That's nonsense.  Moon itself is alleged to be spherical so that shadows would be curved depending on the angle, etc.  But the video you posted shows it with a cocave (vs. convex) model the the moon.
    If the moon is indeed a concave object (plasma or a solid mass), could not a lensing effect of the Firmament itself provide the supposed sphericity of the moon? Further, if it is a fixed concave object overhead, it would explain why we never see the other "side" of it and why the face appears to rotate in its course.

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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #941 on: December 18, 2021, 10:19:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on December 18, 2021, 08:08:59 AM
    When you replied, the post had been here for all of seven hours, most of which almost all of us were likely sleeping.  Perhaps the same vid was posted earlier in the lengthy thread?  If so, it is understandable that some or even most people missed it, etc., as life rolls on outside CI, no matter how popular a discussion seems to be.  I will watch it later, but there's only so much daylight and I gotta cut firewood and take care of real life obligations.

    No problem. I basically just an observer of this brouhaha, but the video seemed very convincing, and I appreciated its apparent common sense - especially not being scientifically inclined. Just wondering as to response from FE proponents. 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #942 on: December 18, 2021, 10:22:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on December 18, 2021, 09:55:52 AM
    The "disk moon" was just one possibility examined in the video as an explanation for why, in a FE world, people see the same side of the moon from different directions or places on earth.

    Guess one should not consider any possibilities that Lad might deem "absurd".

    No, I never said that a flat disk itself is absurd, but a flat disk situated vertically and a few feet above the observers' heads is absurd.

    I point of fact, we don't know.  Moon could be convex, concave, even a sphere.  But given you you can see stars THROUGH the dark "face" of the moon, it doesn't appear to be a solid object.  It could be an optical effect of something shining on the firmament.  Consequently, the "shadows" could be caused by any number of things.  And we see stars through the "shadows".
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #943 on: December 18, 2021, 10:34:01 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 18, 2021, 10:22:57 AM
    IBut given you you can see stars THROUGH the dark "face" of the moon, .....  Be we see stars through the "shadows".

    No, it's not a given that stars are seen "through" the moon. It's been explained a couple times now that dust on the optics, and thermal noise, are two common reasons you might see bits of light in a dark area in a picture of the moon.

    And in case it's not clear why FE has a problem with no sunlight in the arctic simultaneous with long days in the southern hemisphere, it turns out "Professor Dave" talks about this in 2:45 to 5:00 of the following video. In particular, look at the map at about 4:45.

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #944 on: December 18, 2021, 10:53:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on December 18, 2021, 10:34:01 AM
    No, it's not a given that stars are seen "through" the moon. It's been explained a couple times now that dust on the optics, and thermal noise, are two common reasons you might see bits of light in a dark area in a picture of the moon.

    There are official reports out there by professional astronomers detailing their observations to that effect.  But thanks for "mansplaining" it to us, just like you mansplained "how aviation works".
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