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Author Topic: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?  (Read 71352 times)

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Offline Miser Peccator

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Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
« Reply #885 on: December 17, 2021, 01:53:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on December 16, 2021, 06:10:12 PM
    How do you suggest to measure the curvature/flatness of the water in the bucket?

    For the 120m rail I calculated 1.12mm deviation from a straight line. For a 50cm bucket, that's less than 20 micrometers in first linear estimate. Probably really even less than 1 micrometer. I wouldn't know how to ensure that  all sorts of effects and imprecisions can be excluded.


    Well, try this.  Fill the bucket a fourth of the way.

    Now you can lean the bucket over very, very far.

    No matter how far you lean the bucket, the water doesn't curve.

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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #886 on: December 17, 2021, 02:11:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 16, 2021, 08:23:43 PM
    It's not just water; it can be any surface.  Point is that when light gets concentrated at your eyes, as per the previous article, you can perceive a "reflection" when there isn't really one there, not the way you actually   There are all kinds of things going on both optically and atmospherically. 
    ..
    So a picture of a cloud with light on the bottom doesn't prove anything by itself.

    Yes, some pictures show other phenomena. I don't buy the reflection at dawn though.

    Even by the FE view, the sun is some 5500 km up there. How far away is the sun laterally at dawn? Let's be generous and say also 5500 km. So for the sun to reflect  off something on the ground, that reflection would be about a 45 degree reflection from the ground, then reflecting off the clouds, then to me.

    The clouds are at 10-50 km, small in relation to 5500 km. That's why I say "about a 45 degree reflection".

    The big problem is that what I observe in the clouds doesn't look like a 45+ degree reflection reflection from the ground. I know what earthshine looks like. Especially at dawn, the clouds are illumined on the bottom and from the east, not on the bottom and from the ground.

    A smaller problem is whether land could reflect enough for your scenario. I could buy water reflecting enough, but not forests, and especially not forests in the dark behind a small hill at dawn. They aren't getting any light to reflect.

    Speaking of which, how does a small hill cast a long shadow if the sun is 5500 km up and maybe 5500 km away? (If it's nearer at dawn, the shadow would be even shorter, not longer.)

    I asked some questions, and I'll follow up with these, but as I just posted in another thread, I don't think there is much value in continuing this discussion.
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #887 on: December 17, 2021, 02:12:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Miser Peccator on December 17, 2021, 01:53:20 PM

    Well, try this.  Fill the bucket a fourth of the way.

    Now you can lean the bucket over very, very far.

    No matter how far you lean the bucket, the water doesn't curve.

    You can't see micrometer curvature.
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    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #888 on: December 17, 2021, 02:13:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: Miser Peccator on December 17, 2021, 01:53:20 PM

    Well, try this.  Fill the bucket a fourth of the way.

    Now you can lean the bucket over very, very far.

    No matter how far you lean the bucket, the water doesn't curve.

    Another experiment to try: glue a toy building to the rim of the bucket.

    Now lean the bucket over.  The building tilts.

    Buildings on a curve should tilt away from each other, but they don't do this on our flat earth.

    Look at the buildings that populate a long flat road.  They should start to tilt away from each other but they don't.
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    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #889 on: December 17, 2021, 02:17:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on December 17, 2021, 02:12:34 PM
    You can't see micrometer curvature.

    No matter how far you lean water over, it never, ever curves.

    Water is always level.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #890 on: December 17, 2021, 02:35:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on December 17, 2021, 02:12:34 PM
    You can't see micrometer curvature.

    Before anyone jumps on Marion... I'm not sure how you could measure micrometer-order distances in this context without equipment that I doubt any of us have at home.

    There are devices we could use If we were dealing with solid objects, though.
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #891 on: December 17, 2021, 02:36:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Miser Peccator on December 17, 2021, 02:17:54 PM
    No matter how far you lean water over, it never, ever curves.

    Water is always level.

    Uneducated guesses are always uneducated guesses.
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #892 on: December 17, 2021, 02:40:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on December 17, 2021, 02:35:48 PM
    Before anyone jumps on Marion... I'm not sure how you could measure micrometer-order distances in this context without equipment that I doubt any of us have at home.

    There are devices we could use If we were dealing with solid objects, though.

    Miser didn't even ask to use some device to measure. 
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    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #893 on: December 17, 2021, 02:52:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on December 17, 2021, 02:40:01 PM
    Miser didn't even ask to use some device to measure.


    People can just use their eyes, unless they have been blinded by scientism and pride.
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    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #894 on: December 17, 2021, 02:54:18 PM »
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    • Every so-called "proof" of the globe earth by "scientists" is the equivalent of trusting medical advice from Fauci.      
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #895 on: December 17, 2021, 02:58:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Miser Peccator on December 17, 2021, 02:52:48 PM
    People can just use their eyes, unless they have been blinded by scientism and pride.

    Focus on the argument.

    How do you propose measuring a difference in a water surface that's on the order of a millionth of a meter?
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #896 on: December 17, 2021, 03:04:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on December 17, 2021, 02:58:06 PM
    Focus on the argument.

    How do you propose measuring a difference in a water surface that's on the order of a millionth of a meter?


    She said so: pridelessly using the eye.

    She doesn't understand how presumptuous she is.
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    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #897 on: December 17, 2021, 03:11:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on December 17, 2021, 02:58:06 PM
    Focus on the argument.

    How do you propose measuring a difference in a water surface that's on the order of a millionth of a meter?



    Why would it be micrometer when you are leaning that bucket all the way to the ground? 

    You can't lean it any further that that.   Still no curve. 

    Perfectly level.

    No need for any magical "science" tools just eyeballs.

    But if you want to use a tool here is one you can make:



    "A water level works on the principle that a liquid always seeks its own level, it doesn't matter if the body of water is a bathtub or a lake. As long as there are no outside influences at work (such as the wind or tides), the water at one end of the body of water is the same height as the water at the other end."



    HOW TO MAKE A HOMEMADE WATER LEVEL
    Water levels have been used for thousands of years. The ancient Egyptians used water levels to build the pyramids, and the Romans used them to construct their aqueducts.



    Homemade water level.
    A water level is easy and inexpensive to make, making it perfect for leveling a deck or shed foundation, and more accurate than a carpenter’s level over long distances.

    A water level can also be used around corners that are out of line of sight, something a laser or builder’s level can’t do.

    A water level works on the principle that a liquid always seeks its own level, it doesn’t matter if the body of water is a bathtub or a lake.


    As long as there are no outside influences at work (such as the wind or tides), the water at one end of the body of water is the same height as the water at the other end. A water level simply substitutes a plastic tube for the body of water.

    Here’s how to make your own water level using nothing more than a length of flexible, plastic tubing (available by the foot at home centers in the plumbing department) and two stakes or dowels. We used 3/8″ I.D. tubing for our water, but sizes of 1/4″ I.D. or larger will work as well.

    https://todayshomeowner.com/how-to-make-a-homemade-water-level/
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #898 on: December 17, 2021, 03:42:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Miser Peccator on December 17, 2021, 03:11:14 PM
    No need for any magical "science" tools just eyeballs.

    Is it possible for something to be so small we can't see it, but still exist?

    You accept that atoms exist, right?

    And a water level probably wouldn't work. A pen mark is at best a few hundred millionths of a meter.

    And at that level we would need be concerned about water expanding or contracting due to small temperature differences. A 0.1 degree difference in a 1 meter tube of water would mean about 20 millionths of a meter change in the water "level". (The tube would also change some amount varying with material, but for most materials that expansion would be smaller than the water's expansion.)
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    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #899 on: December 17, 2021, 04:16:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on December 17, 2021, 03:42:21 PM
    Is it possible for something to be so small we can't see it, but still exist?

    You accept that atoms exist, right?

    And a water level probably wouldn't work. A pen mark is at best a few hundred millionths of a meter.

    And at that level we would need be concerned about water expanding or contracting due to small temperature differences. A 0.1 degree difference in a 1 meter tube of water would mean about 20 millionths of a meter change in the water "level". (The tube would also change some amount varying with material, but for most materials that expansion would be smaller than the water's expansion.)

    Oh my. 

    I think this would be the perfect tool to aid our understanding of this very complex matter:

    1:57


    I can't afford one so I'll just have to rely on my eyeballs.

    Water.  Doesn't.  Curve.

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