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Author Topic: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?  (Read 73181 times)

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Offline DigitalLogos

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Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
« Reply #750 on: December 14, 2021, 11:48:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 14, 2021, 11:34:48 AM
    Also, there are essentially no Catholic scientists who have sincerely researched FE, that I know of.
    Sugenis is as close as we get, and I hesitate to call him a Catholic since he defends V2
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #751 on: December 14, 2021, 11:56:09 AM »
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    I did the same experiment here, where I live. Behind my house I look from 70m above the water at a bay. At a distance of 13km there is a small flat island (200m x 50m). If I go down to the beach, the island is at 12km, and I am 2m above the water. From the beach, I can't see the island. This corresponds to the calculated numbers in the above example calculation. From the beach, the visual range is just 5km.
    I don't understand the purpose of your experiment?  There's no curvature at 70m so what are you trying to prove?
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #752 on: December 14, 2021, 12:12:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 14, 2021, 11:56:09 AM
    I don't understand the purpose of your experiment?  There's no curvature at 70m so what are you trying to prove?

    I explained it there:  https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/is-refusing-to-accept-an-'obvious-fact'-a-sin-of-lying/msg792793/#msg792793
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    Offline Dankward

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #753 on: December 14, 2021, 12:14:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 14, 2021, 11:56:09 AM
    I don't understand the purpose of your experiment?  There's no curvature at 70m so what are you trying to prove?
    He can see an island that's 13km away from a height of 70m above the water while he can't see the same island from 12km away and a height of 2m above the water.

    Flat Eathers will now bring up perspective and angle of resolution so perhaps just take binoculars with you. However you should easily be able to see a 200m x 50m object from 12km awayif it wasnt obstructed by something (curved surface for example). That's proportionally the same as a 20m x 5m object from 1,3km or a 2m x 0,5m from 130m away.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #754 on: December 14, 2021, 12:16:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on December 14, 2021, 11:48:18 AM
    Sugenis is as close as we get, and I hesitate to call him a Catholic since he defends V2

    Yes, and as such, he takes a view that a flat earth is an appalling idea. He wouldn't be able to research it with an open mind. He would (or always has) had a pre-conceived notion that the earth is a ball. 
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #755 on: December 14, 2021, 12:19:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 14, 2021, 12:16:59 PM
    Yes, and as such, he takes a view that a flat earth is an appalling idea. He wouldn't be able to research it with an open mind. He would (or always has) had a pre-conceived notion that the earth is a ball.
    I have yet to read his refutation of the idea, "Flat Earth Flat Wrong", but I'm sure I'll post what I think when I do.

    He spends over 700 pages on the subject, so, maybe he has some good points.
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    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #756 on: December 14, 2021, 12:21:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on December 14, 2021, 12:19:14 PM
    I have yet to read his refutation of the idea, "Flat Earth Flat Wrong", but I'm sure I'll post what I think when I do.

    He spends over 700 pages on the subject, so, maybe he has some good points.

    Yes, please do post what you think about Sungenis' refutation. It's been awhile since I read it. 
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    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Dankward

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #757 on: December 14, 2021, 12:33:25 PM »
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    • For what it's worth, I'll attach Sungenis' refutation of flat Earth here.

    He explains very well the problems and shortcomings of this model and disproves it. I'd advice all convinced Flat Earthers here to have a good read and either refute his arguments or start to question their own beliefs in that regard.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #758 on: December 14, 2021, 12:57:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Dankward on December 14, 2021, 12:33:25 PM
    For what it's worth, I'll attach Sungenis' refutation of flat Earth here.

    He explains very well the problems and shortcomings of this model and disproves it. I'd advice all convinced Flat Earthers here to have a good read and either refute his arguments or start to question their own beliefs in that regard.

    Why is it so important to you that we question or change our belief? I mean, if you want to believe the earth is a ball, that's fine. The Church hasn't ruled on the subject.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #759 on: December 14, 2021, 01:15:08 PM »
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    He can see an island that's 13km away from a height of 70m above the water
    ok.



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    while he can't see the same island from 12km away and a height of 2m above the water.
    2m above water??  That's 6 feet, haha.  Can waves not obstruct one's view?  Of course!  I've seen 10 foot waves hit a beach and there was no storm.  How big do you think waves are when you go out over 7 miles?  Hint: bigger than 6 ft.


    I don't see how this proved anything other than the poster didn't think it through.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #760 on: December 14, 2021, 01:17:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 14, 2021, 12:16:59 PM
    Yes, and as such, he takes a view that a flat earth is an appalling idea. He wouldn't be able to research it with an open mind. He would (or always has) had a pre-conceived notion that the earth is a ball.

    Agreed.  Sungenis had made up his mind beforehand, just like some posters here.  Many of his arguments are dismantled and shown to be dishonest by Edward Hendrie here ... https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/194305603X/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=194305603X&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />
    I listed to part of the Biblical debate between him and Skiba, and Skiba demonstrated that Sungenis was (deliberately?) mis-representing the Hebrew terms he was arguing from.  I don't feel that Sungenis is looking at all the evidence openly, but merely trying to explain it away.

    I see hundreds of arguments and demonstrations from Flat Earthers that are not refuted.  Meanwhile, 90% of glober arguments are easily debunked as not being cogent ... and often times openly dishonest.  There are a handful of issues out there, but the massive preponderance of evidence is on the side of the Flat Earthers ... if you're willing to look at it with an open mind.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #761 on: December 14, 2021, 01:18:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 14, 2021, 01:17:11 PM
    Agreed.  Sungenis had made up his mind beforehand, just like some posters here.  Many of his arguments are dismantled and shown to be dishonest by Edward Hendrie here ... https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/194305603X/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=194305603X&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />
    I listed to part of the Biblical debate between him and Skiba, and Skiba demonstrated that Sungenis was (deliberately?) mis-representing the Hebrew terms he was arguing from.  I don't feel that Sungenis is looking at all the evidence openly, but merely trying to explain it away.

    I see hundreds of arguments and demonstrations from Flat Earthers that are not refuted.  Meanwhile, 90% of glober arguments are easily debunked as not being cogent ... and often times openly dishonest.  There are a handful of issues out there, but the massive preponderance of evidence is on the side of the Flat Earthers ... if you're willing to look at it with an open mind.

    Yes, well said. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Marion

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #762 on: December 14, 2021, 01:20:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 14, 2021, 01:15:08 PM
    2m above water??  That's 6 feet, haha.  Can waves not obstruct one's view?  Of course!  I've seen 10 foot waves hit a beach and there was no storm.  How big do you think waves are when you go out over 7 miles?  Hint: bigger than 6 ft.



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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #763 on: December 14, 2021, 01:22:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 14, 2021, 01:15:08 PM
    ok.


    2m above water??  That's 6 feet, haha.  Can waves not obstruct one's view?  Of course!  I've seen 10 foot waves hit a beach and there was no storm.  How big do you think waves are when you go out over 7 miles?  Hint: bigger than 6 ft.


    I don't see how this proved anything other than the poster didn't think it through.

    This is totally subjective and un-scientific.  FEs take measurements, explain what equipment they're using, make the curvature calculations, etc.  Globers on the other hand take an isolated picture or just use anecdotal stuff like this here.  There are tons of reasons you might NOT be able to see something ... atmospheric conditions, wave heights, limits of human vision, etc.  Heck, I can't see a quarter mile with my vision, much less many kilometers.  I've seen people put a camera low on the ground and watch a bicyclist disappear into the ground ... only a couple hundred meters away.  So where are the calculations and the math?  FE proponents do the math and take the measurements.  Globers just throw junk like this out there are "proof".
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #764 on: December 14, 2021, 01:27:14 PM »
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    • Marion, I admire you for doing some personal testing but what you described is not a scientific experiment, which must be reproducable.  Water complicates things because it moves; it's best to use mountains or landmarks in distance calcs.
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