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Author Topic: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?  (Read 73842 times)

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Offline Tradman

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Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
« Reply #525 on: December 09, 2021, 02:26:59 PM »
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  • Only a few people have circuмnavigated the (as in ball shape) earth, but those explorations are described and docuмented, as well as those expeditions to space, but “flat earther’s” arbitrarily deny that such explorations have even occurred.  WHERE are the docuмents, journals, charts, navigational references, or descriptions from the “few people (who) have seen where the earth and firmament meet”?  This is what has been asked for, but there is never an answer.

    No one denies circuмnavigation explorations have been docuмented and have occurred, what globe thinkers don't realize is that it can all take place on a flat plane, circling around the outside areas.  I provided one docuмent, the encyclopedia reference to the 13,000 foot dome near New Zealand.  But, even if that weren't what it appears, and even if no one at all saw and edge/firmament, we do know that there are efforts to prevent such exploration by the general public since the treaty.  I don't personally think there is definitive proof available, but neither is there proof that earth is a globe.  

    Why don’t they go?  In this day and age it should be as simple as chartering a jet liner, as I already explained.  There are also over 1,000 private commercial satellites “orbiting” the earth, not controlled by governmental entities, though some “flat earth” proponents arbitrarily (and without proof) deny that such exist.  Surly though one of those commercial entities could be contracted with to provide pictures and coordinates to prove the “flat earth” hypothesis.

    It is absolutely certain that the outer regions of earth are off limits to the general public due to the Antarctic Treaty.
     
    Chartering a jetliner and following the flight path I described previously would seem simpler and harder to refute, one wonders why that hasn’t already happened, or won’t soon.
     
    The ONLY place where “those features” can possible be is at the “edge”, “rim” or “terminus” of the earth’s plane (if we are assuming it is flat) and “those features” would necessarily comprise the circuмference of the level (i.e., not rounded) earth area, that seems to be pretty defined, no need to say “likely”.

    That's right, the edges where they come together with the firmament comprise the outer edge of flat earth, but again, we have a puzzle here and some pieces are not readily available for scrutiny.  We do have other information, for instance, there are no cardinal directions on a ball.  No east or west, or north or south, because no definitive thing exists on a ball.  So how is it that the east is east? East of what? More east? A little west?  East of north, but then how is north, north?  Scripture speaks of ends, edges, and that east and west do not meet up.  That is impossible on a ball.  

    Exactly HOW is the earth’s rim (under the “flat earth” hypothesis) “under lock and key with the Antarctic Treaty”?  Firstly, the treaty has only been in effect since 1961, there have been THOUSANDS of years of earth exploration that predate the treaty and were unhindered by it or any other treaty.  Secondly, NOTHING in the treaty puts anything “under lock and key” (PLAIN FACT!), but rather provides for orderly and environmentally sensitive exploration without any one country claiming dominance.  Thirdly, the treaty specifically defines the territory it covers, which DOES NOT include the entire circuмference of the earth area, if we are conceptualizing it as a flat plane.

    No, it is def under lock and key.  Now, it is a fact that they do have an area in the south where the public are permitted to peruse, but it is quite limited and highly guarded.

    Exploration at the edges has taken place.  There are numerous expeditions prior to the Treaty, but then, as technologies advanced and the need to keep the narrative going, they had to limit snoops.  I gave a link to the book, free to read online, Earth is Not a Globe in another post.  You can google it and there is a lot of information about circuмnavigation of explorers and the scientific measurements they took which prove earth cannot possibly be a globe.   
     
    I have already posted the link to the actual text of the Antarctic Treaty, and here it is again https://www.nsf.gov/geo/opp/antarct/anttrty.jsp.  Read it for yourself and please do not post misinformation (otherwise known as lies).  Let us stick to the observable and verifiable facts.

    Sadly, the truth is getting buried as fast as we can uncover it.  There are people or websites, possibly even Youtube videos (although most have been expunged) which will clear up the specifics of how the Treaty really works.  I believe Ladislaus posted something on the consequences of crossing the line down south earlier in this thread.  

    Offline Dankward

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #526 on: December 09, 2021, 02:46:23 PM »
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  • Globers really have to stop using Eratosthenes.  His experiment was badly flawed.  He made assumptions about the distance between the earth and the sun (which ended up wildly wrong by modern calculations.  I think he said one million miles) and also made no account of the possibility of atmospheric refraction.  I love how the globers constantly pull the "refraction" rabbit out of their hat when it's convenient but then they completely ignore the notion that failing to take it into account invalidates Eratosthenes.  Double standard.
    You can still conduct just the same experiment today with the same simple tools and the correct assumption for the distance between Sun and Earth and you'll find that the shadows are still pointing in two different directions, which cannot happen on a flat plane that is lit by a large lightsource (anything but a point-light or similar).

    Also if you create a large enough triangle anywhere on Earth (there are multiple ways to do this), then measure the interior angles and add them it should give you 180° (basic geometry of flat triangles) on a flat surface.



    However, if you measure the angles in the real world, the sum always turns out to be larger. This can only happen on a sphere. If you cover a full quadrant of the sphere (an octant, actually), you'll get three nice 90 degree angles.


    I'm curious to hear what you think about this argument.


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #527 on: December 09, 2021, 03:27:57 PM »
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  • "We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false."

    William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

    It is in our faces, everywhere; we just don't see it.  Look at the UN/WHO/etc logos...the flat earth map with NO Antarctica.

    Just as the unspeakably-colossal lie/s of the non-Catholic V2 religion are so clear and ubiquitous that most in Traddieland find it hard to believe people can be so blind; just as the endless BS of the (non-existent) Cooties-19 Mind-F*ck is shockingly obvious to those with eyes to see, so is it with FE versus the modern atheistic orthodoxy.

    For those with eyes to see, very little argument is necessary; for the willfully blind, no argument can possibly suffice.  Yes, there is plenty of information, just as there is respecting V2, etc.  How much progress is made in that arena via mere conversation and consideration of facts?

    I have confidence that everyone here will come to see the truth in the time and in the way that God knows is best.

    Godspeed.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #528 on: December 09, 2021, 06:06:51 PM »
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  • Captain James Cook in 1773 circuмnavigated Antartica by sailing ...
    60,000 miles

    By traveling over 60,000 miles (100,000 km), Cook succeeded in proving a negative, and his reputation for precision and reliability was such that his evidence and conclusions were accepted as fact.


    Captain Cook Discovers the Ends of the Earth - Encyclopedia ...

    The Globe Earth theory for the circuмference of Antartica is 11,000 miles. It appears That Captain Cook sailed the perimeter of the flat earth icewall taking 60,000 miles to do it.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #529 on: December 09, 2021, 10:10:27 PM »
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  • However, if you measure the angles in the real world, the sum always turns out to be larger. This can only happen on a sphere. If you cover a full quadrant of the sphere (an octant, actually), you'll get three nice 90 degree angles.


    I'm curious to hear what you think about this argument.

    I'm not sure how one would go about measuring this really.  You'd be basing it on a compass, and the moment you make the turn around one of the corners, you'd at that moment be making a 90-degree turn, when you shrink the perspective down.

    Flat Earthers have done a lot of study regarding the flight routes in the Souther Hemisphere and they are in fact quite bizarre.  But if you flatten out the map to the Azimuthal Equidistant (aka Flat Earth) map, they suddenly make a great deal of sense.  I heard an interview from a professional pilot would would fly from Austrlia to the U.S. West Coast, and he could never figured out why it would always take him very close to Alaska ... until he saw a flat earth map.

    Oh, and another thing.  Have a look at the jet stream on a globe.




    Now look at jetstream on a flat map.




    Which one makes more sense?





    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #530 on: December 10, 2021, 02:10:14 AM »
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  • Flat Earthers have done a lot of study regarding the flight routes in the Souther Hemisphere and they are in fact quite bizarre.  But if you flatten out the map to the Azimuthal Equidistant (aka Flat Earth) map, they suddenly make a great deal of sense.  I heard an interview from a professional pilot would would fly from Austrlia to the U.S. West Coast, and he could never figured out why it would always take him very close to Alaska ... until he saw a flat earth map.

    You've been fed lies. Long flights generally follow a great circle on a globe with possible adjustments to be near airports for emergencies.

    Sydney, Australia to Los Angeles, US doesn't appear to go anywhere near Alaska:
    https://flightaware.com/live/flight/QFA11

    Also here's a flight between Santiago, Chile and Sydney:
    https://flightaware.com/live/flight/QFA28

    A line between Sydney and Santiago on your Azimuthal Equidistant Projection would go over the US.
    See map near bottom of this page:
    https://www.metabunk.org/threads/a-flight-over-the-antarctic-sea-ice-from-chile-to-australia-qf28.8235/

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #531 on: December 10, 2021, 04:33:52 AM »
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  • Which one makes more sense?


    The jet streams move around. They do not stay on a line of latitude.
    The "flat" map does not even depict the jet streams as they are.

    So what do you mean by "makes .... sense"?

    Offline Marion

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #532 on: December 10, 2021, 04:55:25 AM »
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  • Oh, and another thing.  Have a look at the jet stream on a globe.



    Now look at jetstream on a flat map.




    Which one makes more sense?


    The "flat map" shows (beginning at the north pole) blue, blue, blue, red, but it should show blue, red, red, blue.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #533 on: December 10, 2021, 07:39:46 AM »
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  • Back on topic, this whole thread proves that the shape of the earth is not an "obvious fact". As normal observation, as proved by the various ancient cultures including the Hebrews, shows that many perceived it as a flat plane with a dome overhead. And yet modern science claims it is spherical. And appeals to technological marvels available only to the few does not make the supposedly spherical shape an "obvious fact", but an occult (hidden, exclusive, etc.) statement.

    Therefore, it is not sin of "lying" to believe the earth is either flat or a ball, or a pear, or "oblate spheroid" because immediate observation does not make any of these apparent or an "obvious fact".
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Marion

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #534 on: December 10, 2021, 08:11:04 AM »
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  • Flat earthers sin, making Pope Alexander VI a laughingstock:


    Quote from: Pope Alexander VI - 1493, Inter Caetera
    Furthermore, under penalty of excommunication latae sententiae to be incurred ipso facto, should anyone thus contravene, we strictly forbid all persons of whatsoever rank, even imperial and royal, or of whatsoever estate, degree, order, or condition, to dare, without your special permit or that of your aforesaid heirs and successors, to go for the purpose of trade or any other reason to the islands or mainlands, found and to be found, discovered and to be discovered, towards the west and south, by drawing and establishing a line from the Arctic pole to the Antarctic pole, no matter whether the mainlands and islands, found and to be found, lie in the direction of India or toward any other quarter whatsoever, the said line to be distant one hundred leagues towards the west and south, as is aforesaid, from any of the islands commonly known as the Azores and Cape Verde; apostolic constitutions and ordinances and other decrees whatsoever to the contrary notwithstanding.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Marion

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #535 on: December 10, 2021, 08:15:55 AM »
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  • Flat earthers sin, making Pope Nicholas V a laughingstock:


    Quote from: Pope Nicholas V, 1455, Romanus Pontifex
    Moreover, since, some time ago, it had come to the knowledge of the said infante that never, or at least not within the memory of men, had it been customary to sail on this ocean sea toward the southern and eastern shores, and that it was so unknown to us westerners that we had no certain knowledge of the peoples of those parts, believing that he would best perform his duty to God in this matter, if by his effort and industry that sea might become navigable as far as to the Indians who are said to worship the name of Christ, and that thus he might be able to enter into relation with them, and to incite them to aid the Christians against the Saracens and other such enemies of the faith, and might also be able forthwith to subdue certain gentile or pagan peoples, living between, who are entirely free from infection by the sect of the most impious Mahomet, and to preach and cause to be preached to them the unknown but most sacred name of Christ, strengthened, however, always by the royal authority, he has not ceased for twenty-five years past to send almost yearly an army of the peoples of the said kingdoms with the greatest labor, danger, and expense, in very swift ships called caravels, to explore the sea and coast lands toward the south and the Antarctic pole.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)


    Offline Marion

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #536 on: December 10, 2021, 08:20:48 AM »
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  • Back on topic, this whole thread proves that the shape of the earth is not an "obvious fact". As normal observation, as proved by the various ancient cultures including the Hebrews, shows that many perceived it as a flat plane with a dome overhead. And yet modern science claims it is spherical. And appeals to technological marvels available only to the few does not make the supposedly spherical shape an "obvious fact", but an occult (hidden, exclusive, etc.) statement.

    Therefore, it is not sin of "lying" to believe the earth is either flat or a ball, or a pear, or "oblate spheroid" because immediate observation does not make any of these apparent or an "obvious fact".

    You are intellectually dishonest. You omit the fact, known to you, since you read this thread, that long before godless modern science globe-earthism was the overwhelmingly predominant world view.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #537 on: December 10, 2021, 09:01:52 AM »
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  • You are intellectually dishonest. You omit the fact, known to you, since you read this thread, that long before godless modern science globe-earthism was the overwhelmingly predominant world view.
    Whatever. You've proven with this thread what an insufferable jerk you can be.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #538 on: December 10, 2021, 09:21:08 AM »
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  • Quote
    toward the south and the Antarctic pole.
    There are still 2 poles in a flat earth model, are there not?  The pope's quote has nothing to do with this.  If St Augustine couldn't figure out the shape of the earth, and he wrote about it extensively, then this pope, (who you think comments on the shape but doesn't), hasn't figured it out either...especially in 1455.  Columbus hadn't even discovered America yet!!  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #539 on: December 10, 2021, 09:27:27 AM »
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  • Flat earthers sin, making Pope Nicholas V a laughingstock:

    No, but you've certainly shown yourself to be a posterior orifice.

    There is in fact a southern magnetic pole on a Flat Earth model beyond Antarctica.  Nevertheless, are you suggesting that the Pope was teaching Magisterially that there's an "Antarctic southern pole"?  Maybe that statement meets the notes of infallibility too.

    Stop for a second and think about what ANTarctic region means, eh?  It's simply the area opposite to and away from the Arctic circle.  There's an Arctic and an ANTarctic on a flat earth too.  When in the souther hemisphere, thiings rotate the other way due to perspective, which is why it's called ANT.