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Author Topic: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?  (Read 74625 times)

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Offline Tradman

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Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
« Reply #510 on: December 08, 2021, 12:13:21 PM »
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  • 35 pages isn't even getting started on CI, Romulus ;).
    Right? And besides, it is in the divergence of various positions where truth is made manifest.  Most people are quite decent about their differences, so what's the harm? The more division of opinion, the more information that flows.  Flat earth thrives in opposition. For those who want to know, or for those who have questions, this hot topic is good for Cathinfo.       

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #511 on: December 08, 2021, 01:02:22 PM »
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  • Quote
    I am saying its quite pointless to argue about this, no one is going to change their minds, at least have Matt move it.
    No one is forcing you to visit this thread.  If you don't like it, then don't click on this link.  Why are you trying to micro-manage other people? :confused:


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #512 on: December 08, 2021, 01:03:38 PM »
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    35 pages isn't even getting started on CI, Romulus ;) title=Wink.
    Yeah, it was quite an accomplishment for me to be involved in that 100+ pg Sede thread a few years ago.  :jester:

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #513 on: December 08, 2021, 03:07:30 PM »
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  • You are doing exactly the opposite of what St. Augustine taught.  He wrote that it is incorrect and of no spiritual benefit to use such statements as the basis of a cosmology.  And this is not simply an opinion of a Father of the Church; it was incorporated into magisterial teaching by Leo XIII.  We cannot simply ignore it.

    This approach to Scripture is essentially Protestant and should not be practiced by Catholics.

    Sorry, but that's starting to sound pretty Modernist.  Leo XIII said that about the Fathers, that their interpretations with regard to scientific matters don't necessarily constitute a consensus dogmaticus.  This does not mean that Scripture can err with regard to historical or scientific matters.  Again, the quote from St. Robert Bellarmine that a scientific matter can be heretical if it contradicts Sacred Scripture.  Reducing the inerrrancy of Scripture to matters of "spiritual benefit" is Modernist and,  according to St. Robert Bellarmine and the Holy Office in his day, heretical due to impugning Sacred Scripture.  Argue if you will about the interpreation of things, whether some things can be metaphorical language, but you really need to stop spouting this Modernist "spiritual benefit" nonsense.  Yes, everything in Scripture is taught vis-a-vis the spiritual benefit, but when Scripture teaches something about creation, it does not and cannot err.

    Do you believe that the earth was created before the sun and the moon ... for instance?  Do you believe that human beings have only been on earth about 6,000 years?  Do you believe that Adam was made of the earth (and not from a monkey)?  There's no way to "metaphor" your way out of how the Sacred Scriptures present some of these details.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #514 on: December 08, 2021, 03:11:09 PM »
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  • Sorry, but that's starting to sound pretty Modernist.  Leo XIII said that about the Fathers, that their interpretations with regard to scientific matters don't necessarily constitute a consensus dogmaticus.  This does not mean that Scripture can err with regard to historical or scientific matters.  Again, the quote from St. Robert Bellarmine that a scientific matter can be heretical if it contradicts Sacred Scripture.  Reducing the inerrrancy of Scripture to matters of "spiritual benefit" is Modernist and,  according to St. Robert Bellarminea and the Holy Office in his day, heretical due to impugning Sacred Scripture.  Argue if you will about the interpreation of things, whether some things can be metaphorical language, but you really need to stop spouting this Modernist "spiritual benefit" nonsense.  Yes, everything in Scripture is taught vis-a-vis the spiritual benefit, but when Scripture teaches something about creation, it does not and cannot err.

    And yet another straw man argument.  I did not say that.

    Anyhow I'm done with the thread.  I think that Romulus was right.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #515 on: December 08, 2021, 03:32:20 PM »
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  • And yet another straw man argument.  I did not say that.

    Anyhow I'm done with the thread.  I think that Romulus was right.

    Not directly, no.  But you're starting to slide in that direction.  I was around the Modernists for many years, and I know how they think.  They repeatedy argue that many of the events reported as historical by Sacred Scripture were not accurate (i.e. were erroneous) but that's OK because they were intended to teach about "spiritual matters".  So when someone starts emphasizing the Scriptures' intent to teach spiritual matters, that sets off the alarm.

    You didn't answer my question.

    Do you believe that Scripture is inerrant even scientific matters?

    Do you believe, for instance, that man has only been around for about 6,000 years?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #516 on: December 08, 2021, 03:42:23 PM »
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  • Well, the ancient greeks believed the earth was round. They were the first to calculate the diameter-circuмference of the earth using 2 cities at the same time at a particular date. So several ancient civilizations believed in the round earth

    Globers really have to stop using Eratosthenes.  His experiment was badly flawed.  He made assumptions about the distance between the earth and the sun (which ended up wildly wrong by modern calculations.  I think he said one million miles) and also made no account of the possibility of atmospheric refraction.  I love how the globers constantly pull the "refraction" rabbit out of their hat when it's convenient but then they completely ignore the notion that failing to take it into account invalidates Eratosthenes.  Double standard.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #517 on: December 08, 2021, 03:56:41 PM »
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  • Quote
    Even if it were appropriate to use Scripture to support cosmology,
    So you're saying it's NOT appropriate to use Scripture to support cosmology.  That's stupid and wrong.  Your interpretation of what St Augustine was saying is way off.


    Reading comprehension, people!


    Offline Romulus

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #518 on: December 08, 2021, 04:01:21 PM »
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  • Globers really have to stop using Eratosthenes.  His experiment was badly flawed.  He made assumptions about the distance between the earth and the sun (which ended up wildly wrong by modern calculations.  I think he said one million miles) and also made no account of the possibility of atmospheric refraction.  I love how the globers constantly pull the "refraction" rabbit out of their hat when it's convenient but then they completely ignore the notion that failing to take it into account invalidates Eratosthenes.  Double standard.
    The experiment wasn't the point of my statement, rather, the greeks believed in a globe earth. It's not a 15th century invention.

    On another note, I am bowing out of this thread cya all later.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #519 on: December 08, 2021, 04:05:00 PM »
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  • Pancakes are better than oranges.

    There, it's settled. :laugh2:
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #520 on: December 08, 2021, 04:30:23 PM »
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  • Do you believe that Scripture is inerrant even scientific matters?

    I believe that Scripture is inerrant when interpreted according to the sense in which the Church holds it.  I am under no obligation to agree with a person merely because he quotes Scripture at me.   

    As the Council of Trent decreed: 
    Quote
    No one, relying on his own skill, shall,--in matters of faith, and of morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine, --wresting the sacred Scripture to his own senses, presume to interpret the said sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which holy mother Church,--whose it is to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy Scriptures,--hath held and doth hold; 


    Seriously, I need to leave this discussion.  Please don't ask me any more questions.  And if you do and  I don't answer, please don't read anything into that. 


    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #521 on: December 08, 2021, 05:07:32 PM »
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  • Globers really have to stop using Eratosthenes.  His experiment was badly flawed.  He made assumptions about the distance between the earth and the sun (which ended up wildly wrong by modern calculations.  I think he said one million miles) and also made no account of the possibility of atmospheric refraction.

    If you're implying the Greeks "assumed" the Earth-Sun distance, that's incorrect. They determined it by observation of parallax and similar phenomena. Where they often had problems was in the measurement of angles; 89.5o vs. 89.0o makes a big difference in the consequent calculation.

    Eratosthenes' value in particular is disputed in translation. One translation would give about 1 million miles (more or less depending on how one understands the units he used) but another translation would give about 75-100 million miles (again, depends on how one understands the units). The modern value is an average 93 million miles, so Eratosthenes may have been OK.

    The first "modern" measurements are generally attributed to Cassini, who used parallax to measure the distance to Mars within about 7% of the modern value.

    And now we can measure these distances with radar reflections.

    Offline moneil

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #522 on: December 09, 2021, 11:21:52 AM »
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  • I had started out by wondering why, with the “flat earth” hypothesis, no one has yet discovered the “edge” or the “wall of the firmament dome”, whatever you want to call it.  And yes, even with an ice wall or firmament dome there would still necessarily be an “edge” or “terminus” with the flat earth model.  I cited explorers going back to the 10th century, half a millennium before Columbus, and a very abridged list at that.  All manner of new lands and new peoples were discovered by these explorations, and the explorers’ chartings and navigational prowess largely described our current understanding of the earth’s land mass.
     
    Yet no one, as far as I am aware, has been to “the ends of the earth” to describe what is there, what it looks like, provide navigational aids and drawings, perhaps establish a settlement, and etc.  This does seem rather odd.  In answer to my query the ONLY response was that this is because of “The Treaty”, from two responders as I recall.  There were no references to what this treaty was about, or where it fit into a chronological spectrum, but I looked into it.  I discovered that the reference was to “The Antarctic Treaty”.  The original 12 nations agreeing to the treaty signed it on December 1, 1959 but it did not take effect until June 23, 1961.  Today there are 50 nations that agree to the terms of the treaty, representing two-thirds of the world’s population.  U.S. Navy Rear Admiral Richard Byrd's (1888-1957) explorations to the “South Pole” (placed in quotes as proponents of the Flat Earth hypothesis don’t believe in a “South Pole”) have been mentioned.  It is to be noted, from my research, that Rear Admiral Byrd was last physically present on the “Antarctic continent” (placed in quotes as I don’t think proponents of the Flat Earth hypothesis believe Antarctica is a continent, but rather the “rim” of the flat earth) on February 3, 1956, nearly three years before “The Treaty” was signed and nearly half a decade before “The Treaty” took effect.  Of course there have also been hundreds of centuries of global exploration before this “The Treaty”.  I do not believe that “The Treaty” can be used as an excuse for why the “edges” of the “flat earth” cannot be explored, let alone even discovered.  “The Treaty” also stipulates the area it covers, so if one is exploring any area outside of “the area south of 60o South latitude, including all ice shelves” “The Treaty” wouldn’t apply and wouldn’t present any hindrance to finding “the ends of the earth” as envisioned in the “flat earth” hypothesis.  As far as I can find, there is NOTHING in “The Treaty” that precludes private scientific investigation, though that claim in made by one of the forum’s most vigorous apologists for the “flat earth”.  ACTUAL citations would be helpful.
     

    There is a REALLY EASY solution to sorting this out which doesn’t involve satellites (I have the impression that some proponents of the “flat earth” hypothesis don’t believe in satellites, nor the pictures they transmit back to earth).


    • Pick a “terra firma” location.  I’ve chosen Australia for my example as it seems “near the edge”, though I note that not all “flat earth maps” seem to agree as to exactly where Australia is.
    • Charter a jet liner.  There are still plenty of Boing 737 Max’s and Airbus 380’s in storage, one of these models, and others no doubt, should be available at a reasonable cost.
    • There are plenty of eccentric wealthy who enjoy seeing their names highlighted, so funding should be available, Donald Trump comes easily to mind.
    • Take off from Australia and head … we “global earth” types would say due east, I am uncertain how “flat earth” types would describe the direction.




    There would seem to be only two possible results:

    If the airliner arrives at the earth "edge, terminus, ice wall, firmament dome” the explorers can take pictures (“flat earth” believers seem to have a special affinity for a particular Nikon camera and the model number has been mentioned in this thread).  The explorers should also be able to note the “coordinates” which would allow a sea fairing expedition to be launched for further exploration.  As long as they stay above or north of the area south of 60o South latitude” the vaunted “Treaty” would offer no hindrance.


    OR

    The other possible outcome might be that the airliner continues on its “due east” linear flight path and arrives, not at “the edge of the earth” but rather on the west coast of Chile.  Wow, what a disappointment that would be.  Presumably they would refuel and continue their flight in the same linear direction, to arrive back at Australia, approaching its western coast, having circuмnavigated a global earth (as in a "ball shape").

    The above approach seems much more logical than arguing about why my morning coffee isn't flying out of its cup because of the rate of speed that the earth supposedly rotates, or why people in the southern hemisphere don't fall off the planet (as some believe "gravity doesn't exist"), or why railroad tracks aren't curved.

    I believe all true seekers of the truth will be waiting with great anticipation for such an expedition to take place.



    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #523 on: December 09, 2021, 12:05:59 PM »
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  • I had started out by wondering why, with the “flat earth” hypothesis, no one has yet discovered the “edge” or the “wall of the firmament dome”, whatever you want to call it.  And yes, even with an ice wall or firmament dome there would still necessarily be an “edge” or “terminus” with the flat earth model.  I cited explorers going back to the 10th century, half a millennium before Columbus, and a very abridged list at that.  All manner of new lands and new peoples were discovered by these explorations, and the explorers’ chartings and navigational prowess largely described our current understanding of the earth’s land mass.
     
    Yet no one, as far as I am aware, has been to “the ends of the earth” to describe what is there, what it looks like, provide navigational aids and drawings, perhaps establish a settlement, and etc.  This does seem rather odd.  In answer to my query the ONLY response was that this is because of “The Treaty”, from two responders as I recall.  There were no references to what this treaty was about, or where it fit into a chronological spectrum, but I looked into it.  I discovered that the reference was to “The Antarctic Treaty”.  The original 12 nations agreeing to the treaty signed it on December 1, 1959 but it did not take effect until June 23, 1961.  Today there are 50 nations that agree to the terms of the treaty, representing two-thirds of the world’s population.  U.S. Navy Rear Admiral Richard Byrd's (1888-1957) explorations to the “South Pole” (placed in quotes as proponents of the Flat Earth hypothesis don’t believe in a “South Pole”) have been mentioned.  It is to be noted, from my research, that Rear Admiral Byrd was last physically present on the “Antarctic continent” (placed in quotes as I don’t think proponents of the Flat Earth hypothesis believe Antarctica is a continent, but rather the “rim” of the flat earth) on February 3, 1956, nearly three years before “The Treaty” was signed and nearly half a decade before “The Treaty” took effect.  Of course there have also been hundreds of centuries of global exploration before this “The Treaty”.  I do not believe that “The Treaty” can be used as an excuse for why the “edges” of the “flat earth” cannot be explored, let alone even discovered.  “The Treaty” also stipulates the area it covers, so if one is exploring any area outside of “the area south of 60o South latitude, including all ice shelves” “The Treaty” wouldn’t apply and wouldn’t present any hindrance to finding “the ends of the earth” as envisioned in the “flat earth” hypothesis.  As far as I can find, there is NOTHING in “The Treaty” that precludes private scientific investigation, though that claim in made by one of the forum’s most vigorous apologists for the “flat earth”.  ACTUAL citations would be helpful.
     

    There is a REALLY EASY solution to sorting this out which doesn’t involve satellites (I have the impression that some proponents of the “flat earth” hypothesis don’t believe in satellites, nor the pictures they transmit back to earth).


    • Pick a “terra firma” location.  I’ve chosen Australia for my example as it seems “near the edge”, though I note that not all “flat earth maps” seem to agree as to exactly where Australia is.
    • Charter a jet liner.  There are still plenty of Boing 737 Max’s and Airbus 380’s in storage, one of these models, and others no doubt, should be available at a reasonable cost.
    • There are plenty of eccentric wealthy who enjoy seeing their names highlighted, so funding should be available, Donald Trump comes easily to mind.
    • Take off from Australia and head … we “global earth” types would say due east, I am uncertain how “flat earth” types would describe the direction.




    There would seem to be only two possible results:

    If the airliner arrives at the earth "edge, terminus, ice wall, firmament dome” the explorers can take pictures (“flat earth” believers seem to have a special affinity for a particular Nikon camera and the model number has been mentioned in this thread).  The explorers should also be able to note the “coordinates” which would allow a sea fairing expedition to be launched for further exploration.  As long as they stay above or north of the area south of 60o South latitude” the vaunted “Treaty” would offer no hindrance.


    OR

    The other possible outcome might be that the airliner continues on its “due east” linear flight path and arrives, not at “the edge of the earth” but rather on the west coast of Chile.  Wow, what a disappointment that would be.  Presumably they would refuel and continue their flight in the same linear direction, to arrive back at Australia, approaching its western coast, having circuмnavigated a global earth (as in a "ball shape").

    The above approach seems much more logical than arguing about why my morning coffee isn't flying out of its cup because of the rate of speed that the earth supposedly rotates, or why people in the southern hemisphere don't fall off the planet (as some believe "gravity doesn't exist"), or why railroad tracks aren't curved.

    I believe all true seekers of the truth will be waiting with great anticipation for such an expedition to take place.
    It's more than likely, that in large part, the ends of the earth are beyond land masses and outlying oceans and only a few people have seen where the earth and firmament meet. Who knows, perhaps NASA has mapped it entirely? This is one of those questions many flat earthers really don't have specifics on because none of us have been there to verify.  With information we have, we know that earth and sky meet (according to scripture) and that those features likely remain in the more extreme parts of earth where conditions are very inclement and specifically, just so happen to be under lock and key with the Antarctic Treaty.       

    Offline moneil

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #524 on: December 09, 2021, 01:05:01 PM »
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     …only a few people have seen where the earth and firmament meet.

    Only a few people have circuмnavigated the global (as in ball shape) earth, but those explorations are described and docuмented, as well as those expeditions to space, but “flat earther’s” arbitrarily deny that such explorations have even occurred.  WHERE are the docuмents, journals, charts, navigational references, or descriptions from the “few people (who) have seen where the earth and firmament meet”?  This is what has been asked for, but there is never an answer.
     

    Quote
    This is one of those questions many flat earthers really don't have specifics on because none of us have been there to verify.

    Why don’t they go?  In this day and age it should be as simple as chartering a jet liner, as I already explained.  There are also over 1,000 private commercial satellites “orbiting” the earth, not controlled by governmental entities, though some “flat earth” proponents arbitrarily (and without proof) deny that such exist.  Surly though one of those commercial entities could be contracted with to provide pictures and coordinates to prove the “flat earth” hypothesis.
     
    Chartering a jetliner and following the flight path I described previously would seem simpler and harder to refute, one wonders why that hasn’t already happened, or won’t soon.
     

    Quote
    … those features (where earth and sky meet) likely remain in the more extreme parts of earth where conditions are very inclement and specifically, just so happen to be under lock and key with the Antarctic Treaty.
    The ONLY place where “those features” can possible be is at the “edge”, “rim” or “terminus” of the earth’s plane (if we are assuming it is flat) and “those features” would necessarily comprise the circuмference of the level (i.e., not rounded) earth area, that seems to be pretty defined, no need to say “likely”.
     
    Exactly HOW is the earth’s rim (under the “flat earth” hypothesis) “under lock and key with the Antarctic Treaty”?  Firstly, the treaty has only been in effect since 1961, there have been THOUSANDS of years of earth exploration that predate the treaty and were unhindered by it or any other treaty.  Secondly, NOTHING in the treaty puts anything “under lock and key” (PLAIN FACT!), but rather provides for orderly and environmentally sensitive exploration without any one country claiming dominance.  Thirdly, the treaty specifically defines the territory it covers, which DOES NOT include the entire circuмference of the earth area, if we are conceptualizing it as a flat plane.
     
    I have already posted the link to the actual text of the Antarctic Treaty, and here it is again https://www.nsf.gov/geo/opp/antarct/anttrty.jsp.  Read it for yourself and please do not post misinformation (otherwise known as lies).  Let us stick to the observable and verifiable facts.