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Author Topic: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?  (Read 52287 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
« Reply #465 on: December 08, 2021, 08:43:14 AM »
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    I have trouble seeing how anyone could get that interpretation, even looking at the passage in isolation,
    Honestly, it's not clear either way.  I have no idea what he's describing.  If I knew more about St Bede's time period and who he studied, we might have a better grasp.



    Then again, I was reading a debate (a civilized, intellectual one) between 2 guys over St Augustine's view.  They both admitted that he did follow Plato's flat earth/dome model for some time, but then St Augustine would mention a sphere, as was common in those days.  St Augustine wrote much, much more about this topic that St Bede and we still can't figure out what exactly he was describing.  He left behind no drawings, haha.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #466 on: December 08, 2021, 08:46:28 AM »
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  • I have to ask, could not "sphere" be used even to describe a dome?
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #467 on: December 08, 2021, 08:47:10 AM »
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  • Jaynek, I appreciate your posts, even if I slightly disagree.  At first, I thought you were being purposefully obtuse in your language which is why I was aggressive.  I am sorry.  Happy feast day.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #468 on: December 08, 2021, 08:48:54 AM »
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    I have to ask, could not "sphere" be used even to describe a dome?
    That's been my point all along, but there's not enough info to determine.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #469 on: December 08, 2021, 08:57:58 AM »
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    Isaiah 40:22:  It is he that sitteth upon the globe of the earth
    Even this is not descriptive enough.  If you use the Hewbrew gyrum/hug = circle, that's not clearer. 


    The real question is:  what does Scripture mean by "earth"? 
    Does earth = land + air + firmament?  Or just land? 
    Is earth meant to describe ALL of creation (i.e. the entire world, in a sphere/dome shape)?  Or just the land?


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #470 on: December 08, 2021, 09:04:13 AM »
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  • Scripture may be parabolic about the description of earth, but not exactly silent.
    It tells us there is a dome over the earth
    That the dome is like a vault
    That there is water above the dome/vault/firmament
    That the dome has windows
    That the dome is a physical thing, like crystal or beaten metal
    That earth has edges
    That earth has corners
    That it has ends
    That the dome above earth is bound to the edges of earth
    That the earth has a foundation and can never move, forever
    That earth has pillars that make up the foundation
    That earth has cardinal directions and that God's mercy separates us from sin as far as east is from west
    That heaven is above earth
    That hell is below earth
    That earth is like God's footstool.



    Funny how all these descriptions describe the earth in such a way that both independently as well as together, the reasonable picture of a flat earth is drawn but, without extreme mental scrambling and a good dose of mental gymnastics, zero of them work to describe a globe. 

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #471 on: December 08, 2021, 09:21:04 AM »
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  • Scripture may be parabolic about the description of earth, but not exactly silent.
    It tells us there is a dome over the earth
    That the dome is like a vault
    That there is water above the dome/vault/firmament
    That the dome has windows
    That the dome is a physical thing, like crystal or beaten metal
    That earth has edges
    That earth has corners
    That it has ends
    That the dome above earth is bound to the edges of earth
    That the earth has a foundation and can never move, forever
    That earth has pillars that make up the foundation
    That earth has cardinal directions and that God's mercy separates us from sin as far as east is from west
    That heaven is above earth
    That hell is below earth
    That earth is like God's footstool.



    Funny how all these descriptions describe the earth in such a way that both independently as well as together, the reasonable picture of a flat earth is drawn but, without extreme mental scrambling and a good dose of mental gymnastics, zero of them work to describe a globe.
    Good points. Now we just wait until someone dismisses them all as allegory
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #472 on: December 08, 2021, 09:26:20 AM »
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  • Actually, one description of St Bede's "pila" is a "mortar", which shows rounded walls as edges.  This kinda describes the dome.



    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #473 on: December 08, 2021, 09:31:19 AM »
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    That the earth has a foundation and can never move, forever
    That earth has pillars that make up the foundation
    ...
    That earth is like God's footstool.
    On the other hand, "pila" can also be translated as pillar or pier.  So St Bede might have been describing what you wrote.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #474 on: December 08, 2021, 10:01:27 AM »
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  • I have to ask, could not "sphere" be used even to describe a dome?
    In general, Latin is not a precise language when it comes to describing shapes.  As we have seen, pila, orbis, and gyrus have multiple possible meanings if we see them in isolation.  Part of the job of a translator is to figure out what they mean from context.  One can't simply stick in a possible meaning because one likes it.  (This issue comes up in errors in Protestant Bible translations.)

    Since St. Bede is talking about pila and orbis in the middle of quoting and agreeing with Pliny, it seems to me that the most reasonable way to understand this is that the earth is a sphere in the way that Pliny used the word.  That means that it is not a dome.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #475 on: December 08, 2021, 10:10:00 AM »
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  • Scripture may be parabolic about the description of earth, but not exactly silent.
    It tells us there is a dome over the earth
    That the dome is like a vault
    That there is water above the dome/vault/firmament
    That the dome has windows
    That the dome is a physical thing, like crystal or beaten metal
    That earth has edges
    That earth has corners
    That it has ends
    That the dome above earth is bound to the edges of earth
    That the earth has a foundation and can never move, forever
    That earth has pillars that make up the foundation
    That earth has cardinal directions and that God's mercy separates us from sin as far as east is from west
    That heaven is above earth
    That hell is below earth
    That earth is like God's footstool.



    Funny how all these descriptions describe the earth in such a way that both independently as well as together, the reasonable picture of a flat earth is drawn but, without extreme mental scrambling and a good dose of mental gymnastics, zero of them work to describe a globe.

    You are doing exactly the opposite of what St. Augustine taught.  He wrote that it is incorrect and of no spiritual benefit to use such statements as the basis of a cosmology.  And this is not simply an opinion of a Father of the Church; it was incorporated into magisterial teaching by Leo XIII.  We cannot simply ignore it.

    This approach to Scripture is essentially Protestant and should not be practiced by Catholics.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #476 on: December 08, 2021, 10:21:19 AM »
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  • In general, Latin is not a precise language when it comes to describing shapes.  As we have seen, pila, orbis, and gyrus have multiple possible meanings if we see them in isolation.  Part of the job of a translator is to figure out what they mean from context.  One can't simply stick in a possible meaning because one likes it.  (This issue comes up in errors in Protestant Bible translations.)

    Since St. Bede is talking about pila and orbis in the middle of quoting and agreeing with Pliny, it seems to me that the most reasonable way to understand this is that the earth is a sphere in the way that Pliny used the word.  That means that it is not a dome.

    Jayne, perhaps you believe that you are an expert in certain things, like Latin, and therefore we MUST accept your expertise and change our view. But no, we don't have to do that. 




    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #477 on: December 08, 2021, 10:28:47 AM »
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    He wrote that it is incorrect and of no spiritual benefit to use such statements as the basis of a cosmology.  And this is not simply an opinion of a Father of the Church; it was incorporated into magisterial teaching by Leo XIII.  We cannot simply ignore it.
    :facepalm: 

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #478 on: December 08, 2021, 10:34:36 AM »
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  • You are doing exactly the opposite of what St. Augustine taught.  He wrote that it is incorrect and of no spiritual benefit to use such statements as the basis of a cosmology.  And this is not simply an opinion of a Father of the Church; it was incorporated into magisterial teaching by Leo XIII.  We cannot simply ignore it.

    This approach to Scripture is essentially Protestant and should not be practiced by Catholics.
    So, are you going to cite those claims or just leave it at that?

    Because I'm going through Leo XIII's Providentissimus Deus now, and he states that we must the guided by the Fathers and the Church in interpretation and not stray from the definitions provided by the Church. But, the Church has never defined or stated anything regarding the shape of the earth and the Fathers have no real consensus. The only thing the Church has spoken on regarding earth is geocentrism.

    We are also supposed to first have recourse to the literal sense of Scripture before moving onto the typological, tropological, or anagogical sense.

    Tradman's reply doesn't deny any interpretation of the Fathers or the Church.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #479 on: December 08, 2021, 10:35:02 AM »
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  • You are doing exactly the opposite of what St. Augustine taught.  He wrote that it is incorrect and of no spiritual benefit to use such statements as the basis of a cosmology.  And this is not simply an opinion of a Father of the Church; it was incorporated into magisterial teaching by Leo XIII.  We cannot simply ignore it.

    This approach to Scripture is essentially Protestant and should not be practiced by Catholics.

    We are Traditional Catholics. Not Protestant. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29