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Author Topic: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?  (Read 151578 times)

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Online Pax Vobis

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Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
« Reply #450 on: December 07, 2021, 07:15:47 PM »
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    Come out of it, Flat-Earthers!
    Xavier, either get back to work, or go study.  You shouldn't have time for anything else.

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #451 on: December 07, 2021, 07:16:53 PM »
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  • The Infant Jesus of Prague shows you clearly that the Earth is a Globe, as Sacred Scripture and the Church Fathers have taught

    I don't think Scripture asserts the Earth is a globe.

    It has however been common knowledge for > 2000 years, which includes the patristic period.

    So while I'm sure one could muster several patristic quotes mentioning a glove earth, I suspect most would mention it as natural common knowledge, and not ex professo as something revealed.


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #452 on: December 07, 2021, 07:19:34 PM »
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    CAPUT XLVI. Terram globo similem.
    Wrong chapter.  We're talking about Chapter 32.



    Offline Marion

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #453 on: December 07, 2021, 07:21:21 PM »
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  • Wrong chapter.  We're talking about Chapter 32.
    :fryingpan::fryingpan::fryingpan:

    We? Are you legion?
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #454 on: December 07, 2021, 07:22:03 PM »
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  • Since we are on the subject of the usage of "sphere", I just want to point to an interesting declension regarding Isaias 40:22 that I have in a different thread:


    Interestingly enough, though, while the translation selected globe for gyrum; gyrum itself is defined as meaning "circle, ring; circuit; course; circular course for training horses" Which does not necessitate "globe" in the modern understanding of spherical geometry. And, given how the FE model establishes the sun and moon as running a circuit of sorts over the planar earth, it is still possible to view this within the position of FE. It undoubtedly solidifies the position of the earth as the center of the universe, wherein all the stars and planets orbit it in a circuit or course.

    And interestingly enough, many of the Protestant translations take "gyrum" as "circuit" or "circle". And this seems to stem from the Hebrew word ח֝֗וּג "ḥūḡ", which is translated to mean "a circle".

    We can further see a declension of the word "gyrus", as "gyro" utilized in Proverbs 8:27:

    Which is speaking of the glory of the creation of the world by God. The English Dictionary has one definition of "compass" as such: "a passing round; circuit". And in the Hebrew it utilizes the sameword ח֝֗וּג "ḥūḡ", which, again, means "a circle".

    Does this prove the Biblical FE model? Not necessarily, as a "globe" could still be defined as a planar land mass enclosed within a spherical firmament.

    I suppose it depends upon whether Bede or St. Augustine utilize the Latin word "gyro" or "gyrum" in their original texts. As this term is often modernized to correspond to the current conception of the world.

    I agree with you about the problems translating "gyro". It is usually good to check the original language if one can. 

    Here is the St. Bede passage that I quoted earlier in English:

    The reason why the same [calendar] days are of unequal length is the roundness of the Earth, for not without reason is it called ‘‘the orb of the world’’ on the pages of Holy Scripture and of ordinary literature. It is, in fact, a sphere set in the middle of the whole universe. It is not merely circular like a shield [or] spread out like a wheel, but resembles more a ball, being equally round in all directions

    Here is the Latin:
    Causa autem inaequalitatis eorundem dierum terrae rotunditas est; neque enim frustra et in scripturae divinae et in communium literarum paginis orbis terrae vocatur. Est enim re vera orbis idem in medio totius mundi positus, non in latitudinis solum giro quasi instar scuti rotundus sed instar potius pilae undique versum aequali rotunditate persimilis;

    As you can see, the word translated as "sphere" is orbis which is reasonable although orbis can have other meanings.  But St. Bede eliminates any ambiguity when he explains that it is not like a wheel or circular shield but like a ball.  He is talking about a sphere.

    The word "giro" in this passage must be an alternate spelling for "gyro" since that is what makes sense.  In this passage, gyro means wheel (or perhaps circle) and is used in contrast with a ball shaped earth.




    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #455 on: December 07, 2021, 07:32:33 PM »
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    I don't think Scripture asserts the Earth is a globe.
    :confused:  Isaiah 40:22:  It is he that sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.



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    And in the Hebrew it utilizes the sameword ח֝֗וּג "ḥūḡ", which, again, means "a circle".
    As DigitalLogos pointed out earlier, in this verse from Isaiah, the word "globe" comes from the word hebrew meaning "circle".  A circle, including the heavens/firmament, is awfully similar to what St Bede described.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #456 on: December 07, 2021, 07:42:55 PM »
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    Here is the Latin:

    Causa autem inaequalitatis eorundem dierum terrae rotunditas est; neque enim frustra et in scripturae divinae et in communium literarum paginis orbis terrae vocatur. Est enim re vera orbis idem in medio totius mundi positus, non in latitudinis solum giro quasi instar scuti rotundus sed instar potius pilae undique versum aequali rotunditate persimilis;


    You are talking about the red excerpt; I am talking about the blue.  "Pilae/pila".

    but rather like a ball/sphere/mortar/pier/pillar, turned on all sides by an equal and round shape

    If you include St Bede's description of the heavens (ch 16) being perfectly round, then an argument can be made that he was INCLUDING the heavens in his description of the sphere earth.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #457 on: December 07, 2021, 08:31:45 PM »
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  • You are talking about the red excerpt; I am talking about the blue.  "Pilae/pila".

    but rather like a ball/sphere/mortar/pier/pillar, turned on all sides by an equal and round shape


    If you include St Bede's description of the heavens (ch 16) being perfectly round, then an argument can be made that he was INCLUDING the heavens in his description of the sphere earth.
    The description of the heavens as perfectly round refers to the universe as a whole.  In this cosmology the earth is a  sphere set at the center of the larger sphere of the universe.  We know that earth only refers to the land mass because of the bit just after what I quoted, "... the enormous distance of mountains and valleys neither adds to it nor diminishes it any more than a finger would a playing ball."  He is explaining why mountains and valleys do not affect the sphericity of earth. 

    As for "pila," in this context, one should translate it as something that is equally round from every direction.  That eliminates all the possibilities but "ball" and "sphere"


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #458 on: December 07, 2021, 11:30:19 PM »
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  • I have no horse in this race, since it doesn't mean too much to me if Venerable Bede thought the earth was a sphere, but in reading the passage, I have to agree with Pax that the description sounds more like the globe in the sense of putting the vaulted dome on top ... like the old snow globe.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #459 on: December 07, 2021, 11:31:21 PM »
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  • Laughable, embarrassing, juvenile.  Only a programmed indoctrinated fool would believe this "live" view of earth is reality.  These are photos over which the mechanical show-arm passes to give the impression the shot is live.  The clouds never move.  The water is plastic looking, as if at times they are gliding over a model.  Consider the curve itself.  If you complete the "sphere" by tracing the missing circle, the earth turns out to be the size of a model. 

    Globers be like, "Proof!"

    :laugh1:

    There are literally hundreds of obviously faked NASA space movies out there.  It's really pathetic and embarrassing to us as a nation.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #460 on: December 07, 2021, 11:33:00 PM »
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  • Come out of it, Flat-Earthers! The Infant Jesus of Prague shows you clearly that the Earth is a Globe, as Sacred Scripture and the Church Fathers have taught, and you Flat-Earthers are clearly mistaken and completely clueless for denying this.

    That means nothing.



    On top of that you LIE, as per usual, Xavier, claiming that the Church Fathers taught this.  They were rather divided on the question.

    There's something more and more nasty about you lately, Xavier, and it's becoming rather concerning, especially when you lashed out (and are now putting into practice) your decidedly NON-Christian attitude of, "I'm going to be decent only to those who are decent to me."

    You've taken a real nasty turn here ... for all the praying and devotions that you do so often.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #461 on: December 08, 2021, 03:31:07 AM »
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  • I have no horse in this race, since it doesn't mean too much to me if Venerable Bede thought the earth was a sphere, but in reading the passage, I have to agree with Pax that the description sounds more like the globe in the sense of putting the vaulted dome on top ... like the old snow globe.

    I have trouble seeing how anyone could get that interpretation, even looking at the passage in isolation, and it is untenable in its wider context. It is preceded by citing Pliny's observations in support of spherical earth. The part I quoted explains that the spherical shape of the earth is the cause of days being different lengths at different times of year.  Then, St. Bede describes how the sun orbits the sphere of the earth and how that causes seasons.  Then he writes about stars.

    Quote
    This can be known not only from the orbit of the Sun, but also from the location of all the stars which take their courses beneath the different regions of the pole. Indeed, it is because of this same sphericity of the Earth that many of the most brilliant stars of the southern region are never seen by us. On the other hand, our northern stars are to a large degree concealed from them. Hence, the Trogodyte and his Egyptian neighbour do not see those polar stars which are straight over our heads, and which never set. In fact, not only we in Britain, but even the Italians cannot see their brightest star Canopus, which once was worshipped under the name of a god. This is not because the light of the stars is withdrawn by gradually fading, and fails entirely for those at a greater distance, but because the mass of the Earth standing in the way prevents our seeing.

    That is a standard sphere earth proof and does not apply to the "snow globe" model, as far as I know.  Then, in the next chapter he cites Pliny's description of lines of latitude that circle a spherical earth.  Taken as a whole there is little question that St. Bede is using a sphere earth model comparable to Aristotle's or Pliny's.  There is no justification for claiming he is writing about a flat earth surrounded by a spherical atmosphere.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #462 on: December 08, 2021, 06:01:57 AM »
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  • Again, it's a question of what Bede means by a "sphere".  In the passage cited by Pax, it does in fact seems as if his notion regarding the sphere includes the dome.  As I said, though, I'm not too concerned about it.  People can have different opinions regarding matters of science, provided they maintain their reverence for Sacred Scripture and uphold its inerrancy.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #463 on: December 08, 2021, 07:38:53 AM »
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  • Again, it's a question of what Bede means by a "sphere".  In the passage cited by Pax, it does in fact seems as if his notion regarding the sphere includes the dome.
    Given the way that the passage I quoted is sandwiched between two large citations from Pliny (which St. Bede alludes to as  "in a book which is non-religious, yet not to be condemned") it is quite clear that St. Bede means by "sphere" what Pliny means by "sphere".  There is no question that Pliny does not include a dome. 

    Pax quoted a reference to "heavens" that he claims means the atmosphere surrounding a flat earth, but that interpretation does not work in context.  This "heavens" clearly refers to sphere of the universe which contains the celestial bodies which orbit the earth.  This is the classical model in which both the earth and universe are spheres, with the earth placed at the center of the universe.  This model does not include the domed flat earth proposed by Pax.

      As I said, though, I'm not too concerned about it.  People can have different opinions regarding matters of science, provided they maintain their reverence for Sacred Scripture and uphold its inerrancy.

    I agree that people can have different opinions regarding science in a situation like this where there is no de fide Church teaching.  I think, however, that looking at the views of St. Bede and other medieval Catholic thinkers is helpful.  Many of us are aware of evil influences acting on and through modern science, creating some suspicion around its conclusions.  The science of medieval Christendom, however, developed in a time of Catholic influence.  Typically, the scientists of this time were clerics.  We even have examples of Doctors of the Church, like St. Thomas Aquinas, doing science.  For these men science was often an exercise of faith in God through studying His creation.

    I find it very reassuring that the Ptolemaic model became the dominant cosmology during the Age of Faith (a name I prefer to "Middle Ages" which comes from the so-called "Enlightenment").  This means that I can accept that the earth is a sphere without worrying about the elements of corruption in  modern science.  I suspect that this legitimate concern about modern science is what leads some traditional Catholics to the flat earth position because they are unaware of the long history of men of faith accepting science that recognizes that the earth is a sphere.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #464 on: December 08, 2021, 08:03:38 AM »
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  • Come out of it, Flat-Earthers! The Infant Jesus of Prague shows you clearly that the Earth is a Globe, as Sacred Scripture and the Church Fathers have taught, and you Flat-Earthers are clearly mistaken and completely clueless for denying this.

    I see that Ladislaus has already made this point but I want to affirm it, from the position of a person who accepts that the earth is a sphere.  Sacred Scripture does not teach that the earth is a globe.  St. Augustine taught, what the Church eventually adopted, that Scripture is silent on the shape of the earth.  Catholics should appeal neither to passages that might be interpreted in favour of flat earth nor to those which favour sphere earth.


    And since the views of Church Fathers were split on this question, their lack of unanimity means we should not appeal to them either.  They only represent the Catholic Faith when they teach unanimously.

    This is not a question to decide with theology.  The historical practice among Catholics, for a very long time, has been to approach this with science.  Flat earth proponents are within their rights to discuss this as a matter of science.  Whether or not they make good scientific arguments, I leave to those more knowledgeable in that area than myself.