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Author Topic: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?  (Read 151555 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
« Reply #420 on: December 07, 2021, 04:45:21 PM »
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    Any article about De Sphaera Mundi will give you this information.
    You've proven no connection between this and St Bede, or St Augustine, other than they used the word "sphere".  In fact, if this guy who wrote this book was an infiltrator (as I suspect) because his book led to Galileo and Copernicus, then such infiltrators often use the same words as catholic saints/doctrine, but change the meanings.  Just look at V2.  You have the original meaning of "ecuмenism" and you have the V2-one-world-religion version of "ecuмenism".  The enemies of the church have long used jooish tactics of co-opting words, institutions and movements.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #421 on: December 07, 2021, 04:48:18 PM »
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  • All of you are interpreting "sphere" to mean what you want it to mean.  St Bede did not describe it as concretely as you imagine.  These 2 images also fit into his description.  Again, when one view the world FROM THE SIDE VIEW (i.e. horizontally), this also looks like a sphere.
    St. Bede said the earth is a sphere that is a ball that is equally round in all directions.   Something that has a side view different from its top view is not what he is talking about.  



    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #422 on: December 07, 2021, 04:52:17 PM »
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    ‘The reason why the same days are of unequal length is the roundness of the Earth, for not without reason is it called ‘‘the orb of the world’’ on the pages of Holy Scripture and of ordinary literature. It is, in fact, a sphere set in the middle of the whole universe. It is not merely circular like a shield [or] spread out like a wheel, but resembles more a ball, being equally round in all directions ...’ (Bede, The Reckoning of Time, translated by Faith Wallis (Liverpool University Press, 1999), p. 91).
    There is nothing in this description that could not fit into this picture, with the atmosphere/firmament being part of the sphere shape.


    "Firmament" = solid structure, not just air.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #423 on: December 07, 2021, 04:56:21 PM »
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  • Since we are on the subject of the usage of "sphere", I just want to point to an interesting declension regarding Isaias 40:22 that I have in a different thread:


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    I heard Dr. Marshall mention this passage from Isaias while listening to his (good) video on the location of Hell. He made it in passing reference to his opinion that the earth is a globe, and not flat. And, from a cursory search at least, it is the only passage in the Douay-Rheims that uses the word "globe" in reference to the earth


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    Isaias 40:22:

    It is he that sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.

    Qui sedet super gyrum terrae, et habitatores ejus sunt quasi locustae; qui extendit velut nihilum caelos, et expandit eos sicut tabernaculum ad inhabitandum;

    Interestingly enough, though, while the translation selected globe for gyrum; gyrum itself is defined as meaning "circle, ring; circuit; course; circular course for training horses" Which does not necessitate "globe" in the modern understanding of spherical geometry. And, given how the FE model establishes the sun and moon as running a circuit of sorts over the planar earth, it is still possible to view this within the position of FE. It undoubtedly solidifies the position of the earth as the center of the universe, wherein all the stars and planets orbit it in a circuit or course.

    And interestingly enough, many of the Protestant translations take "gyrum" as "circuit" or "circle". And this seems to stem from the Hebrew word ח֝֗וּג "ḥūḡ", which is translated to mean "a circle".

    We can further see a declension of the word "gyrus", as "gyro" utilized in Proverbs 8:27:



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    When he prepared the heavens, I was present: when with a certain law and compass he enclosed the depths:

    Quando praeparabat caelos, aderam; quando certa lege et gyro vallabat abyssos;


    Which is speaking of the glory of the creation of the world by God. The English Dictionary has one definition of "compass" as such: "a passing round; circuit". And in the Hebrew it utilizes the sameword ח֝֗וּג "ḥūḡ", which, again, means "a circle".

    Does this prove the Biblical FE model? Not necessarily, as a "globe" could still be defined as a planar land mass enclosed within a spherical firmament.

    I suppose it depends upon whether Bede or St. Augustine utilize the Latin word "gyro" or "gyrum" in their original texts. As this term is often modernized to correspond to the current conception of the world.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #424 on: December 07, 2021, 05:06:35 PM »
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    He also does not know what the word "consistent" means or what the phrase "medieval period" refers too.
    The medieval period has multiple naming conventions.  The "Dark Ages" commonly referring to the period when St Bede lived.

    Yep, I was wrong about consistency.  My bad.  Still, the only consistency is the use of the word "sphere".  It's not been proven that the definition of sphere is the same.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #425 on: December 07, 2021, 05:09:57 PM »
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    I suppose it depends upon whether Bede or St. Augustine utilize the Latin word "gyro" or "gyrum" in their original texts. As this term is often modernized to correspond to the current conception of the world.
    Agree.  We really have to go back to ground-zero and see how all these terms are defined.  That's the only way to see where agreement actually is.

    Offline Dankward

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #426 on: December 07, 2021, 05:10:38 PM »
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  • It's laughable how we've arrived at hairsplitting the definition of "sphere" and "teaching" etc. while even the most basic common sense observations can't be explained by your flat Earth disc model.

    - the changing firmament depending on latitude
    - tied into the above, why people on the "southern hemisphere" can't see the North Star whatsoever, and vice versa for the "northern hemisphere"
    - the rotating face of the moon depending on latitude
    - solar and lunar eclipses
    - loads of visual proofs of things disappearing below the horizon, even when viewed with the strongest lenses
    - the sun literally shining through from below the cloud layer, then disappearing below the horizon
    - a lot of other inconsistencies

    I haven't seen a single plausible explanation for any of these here, except for solar eclipses, but that explanation says that the moon consists of some kind of translucent cheese or something.

    Come on, what are we even discussing here?

    Offline Dankward

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #427 on: December 07, 2021, 05:13:59 PM »
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  • It appears with this wind farm, you can't "simply zoom in on them to bring them back into full view".



    And here's one of those "long-distance" photos that "proves" the earth is flat. Watch to the end.


    Very good material there, especially the second one for people with an understanding for the technical aspects.


    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #428 on: December 07, 2021, 05:21:37 PM »
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  • It's laughable how we've arrived at hairsplitting the definition of "sphere" and "teaching" etc. while even the most basic common sense observations can't be explained by your flat Earth disc model.

    - the changing firmament depending on latitude
    - tied into the above, why people on the "southern hemisphere" can't see the North Star whatsoever, and vice versa for the "northern hemisphere"
    - the rotating face of the moon depending on latitude
    - solar and lunar eclipses
    - loads of visual proofs of things disappearing below the horizon, even when viewed with the strongest lenses
    - the sun literally shining through from below the cloud layer, then disappearing below the horizon
    - a lot of other inconsistencies

    I haven't seen a single plausible explanation for any of these here, except for solar eclipses, but that explanation says that the moon is consists some kind of translucent cheese or something.

    Come on, what are we even discussing here?

    Well, they have claimed that solar and/or lunar eclipses are due to some solid body that gets in the way but is otherwise invisible.

    And some variation of the heavens based on location would happen on a flat earth.

    But the variation we see is NOT the variation that would exist on a flat earth with the sun, moon and stars "close".

    For example, the angle of the shadow on the moon varies with latitude! (at half moon, for example, I'm not talking about an eclipse). But not longitude! And the standard cosmological model, a globe earth with a tilted axis, explains that.

    Yes, a geocentric model with a globe earth also fits that particular data.

    But a flat earth? Nope.


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #429 on: December 07, 2021, 05:22:12 PM »
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  • Still, the only consistency is the use of the word "sphere".  It's not been proven that the definition of sphere is the same.
    .
    I looked up the definition of the word sphere and got: A three-dimensional surface, all points of which are equidistant from a fixed point. This is exactly what I understand the word to mean. I have never heard anyone use that word with any different meaning. If you think there is some other definition for this word, then can you please tell us what it is?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #430 on: December 07, 2021, 05:31:19 PM »
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    For example, the angle of the shadow on the moon varies with latitude! (at half moon, for example, I'm not talking about an eclipse). But not longitude! And the standard cosmological model, a globe earth with a tilted axis, explains that.
    !!  Maybe the moon moves, just the sun would, if the earth were the center of the universe. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #431 on: December 07, 2021, 05:31:52 PM »
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  • I'm honestly not sure why so much virtual ink is being spilled on what certain Catholic authors thought of the issue.

    There was division among the Church Fathers, so there's no unanimous consensus that would REQUIRE one opinion over another, one interpretation over another, for theological reasons.

    So then it becomees a question of science, and I'm following the scientific evidence.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #432 on: December 07, 2021, 05:32:43 PM »
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  • .
    I looked up the definition of the word sphere and got: A three-dimensional surface, all points of which are equidistant from a fixed point. This is exactly what I understand the word to mean. I have never heard anyone use that word with any different meaning. If you think there is some other definition for this word, then can you please tell us what it is?

    I think the question is over what the original languages said that's being translated as "sphere".

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #433 on: December 07, 2021, 05:33:31 PM »
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    I looked up the definition of the word sphere and got: A three-dimensional surface, all points of which are equidistant from a fixed point. This is exactly what I understand the word to mean. I have never heard anyone use that word with any different meaning.
    It doesn't matter how we define it TODAY.  What matters is, what was the original word/definition used by Scripture, St Augustine, St Bede, etc.

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Is refusing to accept an "obvious fact" a sin of lying?
    « Reply #434 on: December 07, 2021, 05:38:47 PM »
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  • !!  Maybe the moon moves, just the sun would, if the earth were the center of the universe.

    Doesn't matter how the sun or moon may or may not move - this is about how the moon is observed by humans on earth.

    Though FE proponents rarely say anything specific, nearly everything FE I've seen proposed would mean the moon would be observed differently at different longitudes, as well as differently at the same location at different times during the night. Have you ever seen that?